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I know its an old post, but the solution is break up his actions as per normal.

He used a move action to reach the creature, and then a standard action to attack (or full round charge) thus his turn ends in the air. Next turn you could enforce the laws of gravity and momentum as you see fit, either forcing him to spend his move action, or granting him a free one. In either event, the creature gets to tear him to shreds on its turn.

RAW from above, it seems since you are effectively wielding a one handed and a light, and you are choosing not to attack with the one handed weapon,
your number of attacks stays the same,
you do not take the minuses to hit for two weapon fighting that round,
you do not take the penalty of half strength for off hand attacks,
and your main hand is considered to be occupied.

Charlie Bell wrote:
IDK, protection from evil, shield of faith, aid, resist energy, bull's strength, and the like are pretty good buffs to use with legion's blessing.

They are great buffs to use... at level 3 when you get them.

At 9th level you can legions blessing on a 2nd level spell most likely once (maybe twice depending on your wisdom) using your 5th level domain spell slot to power it.

Assume you choose one of the +4 stat bonus spells.
* +4 enhancement bonus spells do not stack with other stat enhancement items such as bulls strength.
* at level 9 your character will have about 46,000 gp in items, a +4 belt to one stat is 16,000.

Anyone who wanted +4 to that stat definately already has +2 maybe even +4 making the legions blessing extremely nerfed. Perhaps the 5th level domain spell would be better then giving your wizard +2 hit and dmg (because your fighters sure as heck don't get the bonus)

The same goes for most shield spells since they give deflection bonuses. (Cancelled by rings of protection)

I am not saying there are zero options.

What I am saying is that there are spells that do cool "lets group up" effects by buffing weapons and armor that should be included but definitely are not.
We also miss out on a large group of very cool personal range cleric buffs that to me really give off the vibe that came to mind when I first read the ability.

Legion’s Blessing (Su):

At 8th level, a crusader gains the ability to confer beneficial spells quickly to a large group of allies. As a full-round action, the crusader may confer the effects of a single harmless spell with a range of touch to a number of creatures equal to half her cleric level. The spell’s range remains touch, so all intended recipients must be within the crusader’s reach when the spell is cast. Using the legion’s blessing expends the prepared spell, but it also requires the crusader to sacrifice another prepared spell three levels higher, as when spontaneously using a cure or inflict spell. The higher-level spell is not cast but is simply lost, its magical energy used to power the legion’s blessing.

At first glance I thought this ability would give a cleric the ability to buff the party for a big fight,
but buff spells for a cleric are either already AoE (Bless) or range personal (Divine Favor)

The restriction of harmless and touch limits you to spells mostly cast on objects.
Then you add that it has to target creatures and you are left with spells like ant haul and endure elements.

Can I get some sort of Paizo sanctioned intent ruling that makes this archetype what it is supposed to be?

RAW Qualifying Spell List (currently 0 and 1)

0th level:

2nd level:


3rd level:


4th level:


5th level:


6th level:


I will edit this post till I have all Paizo cleric spells up to level 6.

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When it is possible that combatants are unaware of each other perception rolls are made to determine who sees who.
In this case the orcs should be given automatic success unless the players are traveling with some extreme tactic.

1)The players fail perception and the orcs are granted stealth until they make any action that would justify a new perception check vs stealth.

2)The orcs can use their surprise round when ever they like.
They can attempt to stealth into a position where they can accomplish their goals,
or if for what ever reason they cant seem to get the ability to close into melee
you can use these special initiative actions to give them better options in the first round on combat.

Most of these posts are correct in that any time they move out of cover or concealment,
they are not going to be able to use stealth under normal circumstances.

technically this wasted their surprise round since the players are aware of the threat. (automatic success on perception check)

The orcs should move to the edge of the cover/concealment.
Then when the players are in optimal range, they attack.
If they rolled good for initiative they charge in getting 2 rounds on the players flatfooted AC
If they rolled bad, they reset to the top initiative position and get 1 round on flatfooted AC.

Yeah we play RAW. So its a tough sell even if he is losing power. I just wanted to get feed back rather then outright say no.

When a new book comes out, no one can get a hold of you because your cell phone doesn't get reception from the bat cave.

When you build a character you use a cork board that ends up looking like the FBI is tracking a terrorist cell.

You don't ever really NEED to roll for damage do you?
(but it's important to announce your total anyway.)

When you use diplomacy, the GM does not pass "GO" and does not collect 200 dollars.

When you show up for the first game, you leave a few feats blank because you didn't have time to optimize them yet.
(you only play once a month...)

You put non multicast characters and NPC level commoners into the same group.

Your characters don't die, they simply retire when you get board with them.

You can give someone the page number for most spells and class abilities.
(as long as they aren't crappy ones.)

You collect Gods like they are Pokemon.

You are reading this post to get some new ideas.
(and haven't laughed once from the OP to here.)

Not sure, but perhaps Big Bad Evil Guy?

That's kind of what I figured. Anyone else have a good advice for wild shape swap?

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Well Paladin restricts your alignment to LG so if you want to play an actual paladin,
then you have to look at Asmodeus and determine how his ideals can be met by a lawful good character.

Quotes from the inner sea guide:
"Some say that when the world was forged, Asmodeus wrote the contract of creation, agreed to by the gods."
"Asmodeus believes strict discipline, unwavering obedience, and the strong ruling the weak."
"Of all the evil gods, the other deities find Asmodeus the easiest to bargain and deal with."

So this is good,
Asmodeus isn't cruel and he doesn't despise kindness.

Play a paladin from Cheliax who helps only those who will bow down to your ability to help them. (boot kissing etc)

Those who ask for help but do not give praise have too much pride, and need to be taught humility!

Your word is unbroken. You hold people to their word and bring them to justice upon ANY infringement not to your liking. Likewise, you hold yourself to your own word, and will not break it even under penalty of death.

You perspective isn't that Asmodeus is evil, he is just the rightful ruler of this world. And as such you pay him the homage he deserves, for you know one day, all will bow to him and his fair rule will govern all to peace.

I am starting a new level 1 custom campaign.

One of my players wants to play a druid,
he is opting for the domain rather then the animal companion.

Because the druid domain choices are very limited,
he wanted to know what he could give up to be able to choose freely from the cleric domains.

He offered to give up wild shape, so my question is this:
How much of the druids power is based on wild shape?

They get it at level 4 and it gets tougher till level 12.

Domains should be more or less balanced anyway, so I suspect limiting druids to a select choice of domains is based on RP rather then power level.

If he gives up wild shape, and he can choose any one domain, how much power does he need to supplement level 4-12?

Thanks guys!

Is there an actual rule for how many spells can fit on a scroll? if not, is there a rule stopping me from putting multiple spells into a single tattoo scroll?

I am pretty sure you can not end a spells duration early
(other then concentration and spells that indicate a "D" in their description)
but I want to be sure since it really seems like you should.
(unless its creating something real/permanent)

Also if you cant dismiss your own spell, is it possible to cast it at a lower level?

The answer is probably no to this as well, but I suspect most would house rule its okay.

I know its not something most casters would want to do, but if you created a situation where magical auras would get you detected, and were using magic to speed up your travel, you would want to be able to end it on time with your arrival to the stealth zone. (with out having to waste a dispel magic on your own magic)

When you use mending or make whole, does this bypass the cost of repairing a magic item?

The rules seem clear.

Option 1. Have applicable craft feat, spend a lot of money and time.
Option 2. Use a 0th level spell(mending) a few times. :/ (10min per)

IF the magic item is destroyed

Option 1. Cant repair it, throw it away.
Option 2. Use a 2nd level spell(make whole) with x2 items caster level (10min per)

But option 1 is so bad it shouldn't even exist, which is making me feel like I am missing something.

I mean its almost like natural healing vs cure light wounds but I just don't see the point.

This would work for delivering spell touch attacks?

Familiars get the ability to deliver touch attacks. Do they use their own base attack bonuses or the Masters?

Of all the prereqs;
You must have the feat.
You must have the spell present during creation.

Everything else can be missing but its harder to do.
+5dc per missing prereq

Although the spell can not be missing,
It can be fudged with another method of casting that spell at time of creation.

This could be a scroll you bought,
or a caster willing to spend the time to create this item with you.

If the finish product is a spell completion item, and that spell is not on your spell list, this will require a UMD check for you to use.

Hopefully that is clear.
Note: "Fudging" the spell requirement does NOT add 5 to the DC since that requirement is being met, even though it is implied that you should be the one to meet it.

Wizard, craft a lot of scrolls to be paired for weird situations.

Spell slot guide:
1 slot per level on survivability and cast ONE per fight
1 slot per level on ultility and cast when needed
rest for crowd control and dmg.

Buy a staff with a good level 3-4 spell. make it so your spell uses up all 10 charges of the staff and the cost formula will look like this.

(800 X caster level (minimum 8) X spell level) / number of charges used per casting

lvl 4 spell
(800X4X8)/10 = 2560

lvl 3 spell cl 10

(800X3X10)/10 = 2400

Staves DCs are better then scrolls so if you need the get out of jail free card, a staff is the way to go.

If you need to carry a few staves efficient quiver is 1800 i think and allows you to carry 6 staves. (900 if you craft it yourself)

Conversation history:
Runaway Panda wrote:
Juke wrote:

Personally, among mature groups, character conflict is what makes the game still interesting.

If your characters have to fight to the death, the bard may be wise to look to the party for help before the situation goes there.
(because bards spin people to their views)
I completely agree. This situation( as stated before) has been some of the best RP we've had in awhile. I don't think that anyone at the table is taking it personally. It's meant to be a fun and interesting scenario we've sort of stumbled upon.
Juke wrote:
I really like how it turned out. Keep me posted on this relationship :D

Well I'm glad you're enjoying it! I'll do my best to keep you informed for as long as you hold interest.

Juke wrote:

Another option is the greater good thing.

If your character hasn't been burned in the past he may be more willing to see how this sort of cooperation plays out as a life lesson experiment.

That's another interesting idea. After all, my character(being a bard and all) loves to write stories and what not. Maybe he could see this as a potential story he could eventually write about.

Juke wrote:
That doesn't mean he cant cock block the necromancer at the local tavern. After-all haters gonna hate.
Damn right! Ha ha.

My favorite game ever I was playing a pretty actively lawful paladin(Canadian mounty style) with my counter weight being a super greasy rogue.
Many MANY threats were made, even some non lethal fist fights and hilt punches.
At the end of the day we knew where we stood with each other and the characters were amazingly real.
The best scene was in these catacombs below the noble family palace.
The rogue started to loot the sarcophagus's.
I stopped him, caught him again and picked up a rock and chucked it at him before he knew I caught him trying again, then he later succeeded and I didn't find out until after we completed the mission.
I made him buy back the ring and we broke into the nobles house to access the catacombs and return it unnoticed.

EVERYONE got involved, and characters started to take shape at the low level of 3.
We loved those characters so much we played them till level 26...
after level 18 or so, He and I were sworn enemies, but we had issues we needed to work together on so we put it aside when we had to.

One tip I just thought of, is to talk about your characters OOC to see how he feels about the relationship.
You can keep the talk from in game character knowledge based on observations if that makes it more fun.

Personally, among mature groups, character conflict is what makes the game still interesting.
If your characters have to fight to the death, the bard may be wise to look to the party for help before the situation goes there.
(because bards spin people to their views)

The world you live in really determines what level of conflict is reasonable.
Some play in a law of the road kill or be killed world.
Some play in a world like ours where you can argue with out someone pulling out a spell book or sword.
Since you did draw steal on him, I take it he knows your stance is very strongly opinionated.

I really like how it turned out. Keep me posted on this relationship :D

Another option is the greater good thing.
If your character hasn't been burned in the past he may be more willing to see how this sort of cooperation plays out as a life lesson experiment.
That doesn't mean he cant cock block the necromancer at the local tavern. After-all haters gonna hate.

I don't want to have arguments about paladins, so I'll make a thread and change the world. Then, instead of changing the world, I'll argue about paladins. :(

Booksy wrote:
But if Hulk picks up Thor while Thor is holding Mjölnir, did Hulk pick up Mjölnir?

Technically speaking no. But Thor is probably going through a few walls isn't he?

Heaggles wrote:
witch is a good, paladins are fun, inquisitor can fit alot of rolls.

Two weapon fighter archetype. Anything with lots of attacks. PFS usually allows players to do full attack actions on the second round of combat.

You certainly have all the ones I thought of.

Owly wrote:

Assume a very large city, with a learned gentry, and probably a magical college. The ruler would occasionally have need of imprisoning those for whom you can't take away their spell book; sorcerers and the like. How do?

In a general sense, a monarch could rule "Well, she's too dangerous, just hang her." but prisoners can be useful in the long run, and adjudicating certain spells for individuals could become expensive. Give me ideas for an institution that can safely house those of magical blood for an indefinite period of time.


cursed item: Robe of Powerlessness

Adamantine Dragon wrote:

I would be very careful "designing" encounters to negate the PCs strengths. There are other ways to adjust encounters to make high ACs less problematical for the GM. Some suggestions:

1. AoE spells
2. Traps
3. Terrain (put a group of archers on a ledge the high AC folks can't reach immediately)
4. Minion hordes (this is something I do a lot, it gives the party something to worry about just through the sheer numbers of creatures, but also lets them get the satisfaction of beating down an army. It's a win-win)
5. Touch spells or attacks
6. Conditions (dazed, stunned, etc.)
7. Swarms. Swarms are one of the things that terrify parties, regardless of AC.
8. Dispel Magic
9. Debuffs (throw a witch at the party. An invisible one even.)
10. Brutes with massive hit points (this is sort of like minions above, a massive beat down on a monster with massive hit points can be fun).

Just the first ten that pop into my head.

What he said.

Anti magic field works well, then toss them against a bunch of sundering power attackers with Adamantine weapons :D

Don't actually do that. You will probably end a 15 year group with that.

Traps could help,
so can splitting the party with environmental effects
Lava does some fun damage.

Good luck, I would be honest and tell them if they are gonna take away my tactical fun, then I would like for them to role play deep meaningful characters so I can at least enjoy the interactions.

Sunder that bow string once and a while to give that fighter his time to shine.
Use large creatures and pounces will still draw some AOOs or use obstacles and difficult terrain and pouncer's can't charge.
A GM should never allow a feat/ability to be the end all be all perfect solution to every problem.
This gives other players a chance to be the big man too.

I would agree with him. Monks don't fail saves and drow have natural spell resist. Toss in two levels of paladin and you can boost your saves further.

Mages that cant kill you are not a threat per-say, but they could still prove to be nearly impossible to kill. Invisible is a level 2 spell, fly level 3, false life, mirror image, arrrg how do i down these buggers!

This class is really over powered at level 1.
I love the flavor, but I could break the crap out of it.

Charisma 16 all other stats balanced lightly as needed

Arcane pool 4.

two handed (anything) = 1d8 +1 hit/dmg

6 weapon points at level 1
"the electus can redistribute the weapon points of his calibur; this costs a number of points from his arcane pool equal to the number of weapon points that were redistributed."

day 1

two handed (anything/flavor) = 1d8 18-20 crit

day 2

two handed (anything/flavor) = 1d8 +1 hit/dmg 18-20 x3 crit
plus one point to toss on flaming for a minute.

day 3+

we have 3 points to play with a day to still keep our +1 hit/dmg
so we can use flaming for 3 encounters a day.

The best "real" weapon crit possible, with a +2 bonus at level 1...

at level 7 its better then anything currently possible
1d8+3 18-20 x4 crit.
The +3 bonus already overcomes silver and cold iron

and level 8 with improved crit feat(you get a bonus feat at 8)
1d8+3 15-20 x4 crit.

Yikes... we haven't even spent any money yet!

For 8,000 we can enchant it to +2
Giving us
1d8+5 15-50 x4 crit.
We now ignore all material DR and if you really have to, you can drop down your crit modifier to ignore slashing bludgeoning and piercing dr for the day and increase its base die what the heck, as a full round action. At this point you also get flaming pretty much as needed.

We still have to add feats like power attack, and our strength modifier making for a real melee monster at low levels.

This is all off the top of my head, and I'm pretty sure I could do better then this if I analyzed it.

Also, the weapon is pretty indestructible, and even if it does get destroyed, there is no penalty. Flavor wise, so much for being a shard of his soul. Even losing a familiar F's you up, this should outright kill you if not at least cause a negative level for the day.

food for thought, If this class was in my group, people would fight for who gets to play it, and each one of us as a GM would say no to the person who won.

Well if you want to win, arcane wizards are the way to go.
the easiest is high initiative, high DC, wizards who all drop a fireball. Level 5 characters just cant deal with that kind of dmg.

But before I get carried away,
If you are set on beefy types max your strength, take toughness, use power attack and two weapon fighting with double slice and smash things dead... fast!

you don't need level 5 in barbarian since uncanny dodge isn't going to be needed. (rogues will lose the fight even with +3d6 flank because they cant take your hits and you have hp to take theirs) So I would go with
barb 4 fighter 1 Or barb 2 ranger 2 fighter 1 (the ranger is if you don't want the 15 dex to qualify for two weapon fighting)

If you know they will have casters you will want to buff the saves you think are weak. Expect spell DC's as high as 20 :(

I would spread out against mages... and don't forget to bring a ranged attack that uses your strength bonus for dmg.(javelin probably good enough)

GL! and make sure to post the results of the outcomes of each round in the tournament!!

My reasonable house rule would be to make high DC scrolls costs as much as a one use staff.

Improved scribe scroll
Prereq's: Minimum caster level 11, scribe scroll

Cost to create:
40 x spell level x CL(Minimum 8) (cost derived from staves, which is explained later)

You can only have one spell on an "Improved scroll"

If we assume this, then the (major)trade off is:

Weight and space is more of a burden for staves
Staves can recharge

Which seems like a decent/fair trade off.
Plus staves are harder to sunder and can be used as a weapon(scroll masters don't count :P)
Also staves don't need to be deciphered

Still seems balanced.

I show my work/reasoning below
please feel free to ask about something my work you don't understand.
And definitely correct any math errors.

Using wizard spell levels:

EXAMPLE 1 (lvl 1 spell)
Scroll of sleep CL1
DC 11.

Staff of sleep CL8(minimum)
400x1x8 = 3200
3200/10 = 320 (Staffs have 10 charges, and this one uses 10 charges to cast sleep once)
DC 11 + YOUR casting stat of sleep spell

320/12.5 = 25.6 times the cost

EXAMPLE 2 (lvl 3 spell)
Scroll of fireball CL5
12.5x3x5 = 187.5
DC 14

Staff of fireball CL8(minimum)
400x3x8 = 9600
9600/10 = 960
DC 13 + YOUR casting stat of sleep spell

960/187.5 = 5.12 times the cost

EXAMPLE 3 (lvl 5 spell)
Scroll of feeblemind CL9
12.5x5x9 = 562.5
DC 17.

Staff of feeblemind CL9
400x5x9 = 18000
18000/10 = 1800
DC 15 + YOUR casting stat of sleep spell

Since 5th level spells have a caster level above 8, the multiplier difference between scrolls and THESE kinds of staves stays the same at this point.
which is 400/12.5 = 32 32/10 charges per use and we get 3.2
Only 3.2 times the cost!

Not too bad.
Roughly 25 times the cost on low level spells.
Medium level spells quickly drops to 5 times the cost.
High level spells finish with 3.2 times the cost on all spells level 5 or higher.

Other interesting facts!
Staffs do limit you by weight and space I suppose.

You can add spells to the same staff and save space, you even save some money on that new spell, but they draw from the same charges so not so great when we are using 10 charges that will take 10 days to replenish.

RAW: An efficient quiver will let you carry 6 additional staffs! This makes it semi reasonable to carry around times of trouble super DC's that have cost that is minimized.

Best of all, is it is all very legit.

You can almost justify throwing out a consumed staff, but what is better is to just toss it in your quiver, and charge it up when you don't need the spell slot.(max 1 per day) Then, when the staff is full, you can even sell it for the price you spent crafting it!
Technically speaking, that can make it CHEAPER then scrolls :D

Spent a few hours on this, feed back is appreciated.

"I am not getting your Elemental Body Runes idea... Do you suggest to make spell completion items with Craft Wondrous Items? If that is the case, Inscribe Scroll seems like a wasted feat in your games."

Scrolls, potions, wands, etc do not take up a slot, so effectively they cost half as much as a slotless wondrous item that does the same.

CRB page 553
"Refer to Table 15-29 ... "
Nowhere does it say that you cant create a glove that acts just like a wand, potion or ring etc.

So wondrous item wins except against craft staff.
And maybe brew potion because potions specifically allow you to use it on other people even when unconscious. A glove could not cast a spell of range personal on someone else, but a potion effectively can (if they are unconscious/ AKA helpless). Not sure when you would need to use a range personal spell on an unconscious person, but it's a potion only ability.

Other craft feats allow you to repair magic items of that type.
There are a few examples of items that have no cost rules. Items that give you a feat, like meta magic rods for example, can't be duplicated with out the GM stepping in for a cost rule.

Examples of wondrous items owning other magic creation feats.
Ring of protection +1 craft cost 1Kgp
Glove of protection +1 craft cost 1Kgp
Gem of protection +1 craft cost 2Kgp

Potion of cure light wounds CL1 craft cost 25gp
Glove of healing(use activated) craft cost 25gp
Gem of healing(use activated) craft cost 50gp

+1 Armour enhancement on base material armors craft cost 500gp.
Gloves of Armour enhancement craft cost 500gp
Gem of Armour enhancement craft cost 1000gp

Scroll of magic missile CL1 craft cost 12.5
Missile glove CL1 craft cost 12.5 (glove is consumed)
Missile gem CL1 craft cost 25 (gem is consumed)

You get the idea, perhaps this needs fixing, but it is just meant to be governed by your GM. RAW give him a GUIDE to price things out, and most GMs, if allowing the CRB RAW, will just tell you to use the table given on page 550.

I can agree that because wondrous items must be items, I can't use that feat to create body runes, and thus runes would use the tattoo rules.

@ Sniggevert

Yeah there are a few spots to read on this matter.

CRB 490-491
"A spell successfully activated from a scroll works exactly like a spell prepared and cast the normal way. Assume the scroll's caster level is always the minimum level required to cast the spell for the character who scribed the scroll, unless the scriber specifically desired otherwise."

This certainly is readable the way the O.P. see's unfortunately what it really means is:

1) The scroll is a spell completion item.
2) The CL of the scroll is determined by the scroll at the time of creation.

Here are the rules the O.P. can read to affirm this as true.

CRB 491
"Staves use the wielder's ability score and relevant feats to set the DC for saves ... "
"Unlike with other sorts of magic items, the wielder CAN use his caster level ... "

Finally the one that excludes all other magic items from this special uber DC group.

CRB 459
"For a saving throw against a spell of spell-like effect from a MAGIC ITEM, the DC is 10 + the level of the spell or spell-like effect + the ability modifier of the minimum ability score needed to cast that level of spell.
Staves are an exception to the rule. Treat the saving throw as if ... "

So there is the sad truth. :(

I need to find a way to get stronger scrolls too, currently looking into the break down of the cost of EVERY staff in the CRB I'll post my formula findings here. Hopefully that will give us a modifier for such a DC increase. Or perhaps a cost idea for a permanent wondrous magic item that allows you to alter other magic items you use with your own RELEVANT stat.

Think of UMD as justification. If you have a really unwise Sorc using a scroll of healing, this would break the minimum stat to cast rule which is a pretty core concept.

If it was a really problem the group agreed upon, the GM just needs to introduce another cost modifier when making scrolls.

Something like:
spell level X caster level X stat modifier X 25(12.5)
Minimum stat required to cast THAT spell being a x1 multiplier and you can increase this up to the caster level's actual stat.
The cost increase is based on GM ruling but something like,
intelligence increase squared divided by ten. (then add this to the base 1 multiplier)&(this makes it reasonable to start but more and more costly to get POWER scrolls)


minimum +2 2*2=4 4/10=.4 .4+1 = 1.4
minimum +4 4*4=16 16/10=1.6 1.6+1 = 2.6
minimum +6 4.6
minimum +8 7.4
minimum +10 11

Calculator required for some, but I feel those multipliers are pretty fair at balancing power of scrolls.(and other magic items)

If that doesn't work use the spell Polypurpose Panacea(Ultimate Magic) to get what you need.
One of it's effects: "Intoxication: You feel comfortably intoxicated for 1 hour, as if you had a few alcoholic beverages."
It's a level 1 wiz/sorc or alchemist so you will need to buy a potion for 50 gold. Not terribly expensive for a level 9+ character.

so using that argument you could say since you trained to do this, you know how not to do this. That should be enough to justify to a GM to let you have your RP fun.

Well we know it is an extraordinary class ability (Ex)
Page 221 and 554 will give you a few words on what that means, but basically through training you have learned to do something that is non magical and superhuman.

If you use the argument that your druid shape shifting powers allow your body to instantly change itself to adapt to the poison.

lights flickered so going to send as is incase power cuts

Yeah spell tattoos already are x2 cost slotless wondrous items though.

I am attempting to use existing rules, but If I changed it from "Tattoos" to "Elemental body runes", VOILA! All I need is wondrous item creation feat, and gold to pay x2 for slotless and I could basically have no limit, and no use restriction.

Obviously with this method the GM is more entitled to step in on your magic item creation parade and start laying down guidelines since no specific cases exist, but RAW you can use as many slotless items as you can afford/have time to make.

Am I being unreasonable in assuming the x2 cost is enough of a restriction to stop magic item stacking?
(It is for example even LESS expensive to just stack a slotted item with additional abilities at x1.5!)

You could have gloves of a,b,c,d,e,f,g,run out of letters,zzz and it would be a lot cheaper then making a slotless item for each of these glove qualities. I think I am gonna go with heaggles and use wondrous item feat RAW, as Dust Raven said I am not being overly abusive with paying extra for my scrolls to be cool.

Any strong intelligent opinions are welcome to change my mind on this matter.

1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.

The cost to CREATE tattoo magic is effectively x2 since it is "slotted"

But tattoo scroll goes out of its way to mention:
RAW: "A spell tattoo has a MARKET PRICE four times as much as an equivalent scroll."

I just wanted to be sure this is true before going further.
1) If I buy a level one tattoo scroll it's 25X4 = 100
2) If I create that same tattoo it's 12.5X2 = 25

It's nice to not have to pull out a scroll, but...
That tattoo magic has to be seen and touched in order to be used.

Tattoo magic has the following slots
RAW: "Tattoos may be inscribed on the following slots: belt, body, chest, feet, hands, head, neck, shoulder, ring (up to two), or wrist."

If we compare tattoo magic with a slotless wondrous item;
The cost is the same.
Tattoo's have conditions to use them, touch and sight vs. usable from backpack with out hands.
Tattoo's have the slotless cost yet have a slot limitation :(
Tattoo's can't be easily unequipped from your character. (only advantage)
Tattoo's can't be shared. (realistically can't be sold either)

I need to be able to make probably 50 tattoo scrolls, but I have only 4 maybe 6 slots. hands, wrist, ringx2

(A nice GM might rule the "up to two" ring exception was only to prevent 5 per hand, rather then imply it's the only slot you get two of.)

I need help breaking this a little so that I can be a normal scroll carrying caster (20+ scrolls), but hopefully use something cool like tattoo's

My problem with tattoo magic is it takes a feat to do what wondrous magic item creation can already do... and aside from the condition of using a non spellcraft skill to craft, it's worse or redundant.

I am close to opening up a grease storm on my GM and showing up with 50 slotless enema scrolls castable strait from my **** :(

Game is Monday for those who can help me quickly :D

Thanks for reading,

No. that specific rule does not exist.

-4 into melee


+4 AC for cover. (ranges from +2 to +8)
Page 195 in the core rule book if you want to check it out.

are the only ones that have anything to do with what you speak of.

All jokes of course. But if the paladin isn't high enough level to stand physically between two armies, He probably shouldn't be faced with some of these choices. They would fall onto the shoulders of a higher leveled character. A level 3 character trying to stop a war is pointless because he should be talking to goblins about a missing wizard book :/

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"a LG character who is trapped in a room and must kill 1 of 2 innocents in order to leave and save the world"

Paladin should diplomacy the two innocents into fighting to the death.
Paladin: "I need one of you to be worthy of me killing in order to save the world"
The paladin kills the one who committed murder and successfully leaves.

I don't see a problem at all in these scenarios. He needs to brainstorm some of them harder.

Maybe he sells his +2 sword(or something of high character wealth) to send an accomplished healer to save his wife.

Rather then kill the prince perhaps he uses diplomacy on the prince, convincing him to allow the peasants to revolt against an unguarded castle, and the paladin defends the prince with his life dealing non lethal to hundreds of peasants.

Two things need to happen though. You do need to pose similar situations to other players. (The prince one seems more of a group choice)
And when he makes considerable sacrifice to succeed at both, then that is the true glory paladins are made of. The success of the impossible, not the failure. Make sure to let him know he will not fall per say, but to succeed at both there will need to be sacrifice, or perhaps just an increased level of risk.

Also I like paladins that are men of action. If he doesn't get the cooperation he needs from the prince, then he may get the cooperation he needs from the captain of the guards etc. Paladins have no troubles nor fear of being held accountable for their actions, because they know they do what is good and right.

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As a skimmed other posts above, they are correct in that the most reliable way to locate an invisible creature is to wait for it to attack you. For that split second you know where it is, and if you are smart and held your action you can strike at it before it moves from its known location.
CRB Page 563: "... If an invisible creature strikes a character, the character struck knows the exact location of the creature that struck him ..." until it moves, and/or unless it has reach :D

They are also correct in that ...

As you stated, it is impossible to use stealth while attacking or running.
Also note stealth checks are made free with a move action.

This means you can still stealth after you attack if you still have a move action left.

More then you wanted to know: Other ways to locate Invisibles

"NOTICE a creature using stealth." There are some fun modifiers to come up with a DC, but the important part is you haven't located anyone, just know they are there.

This is clarified for us later.

Targeting a creature means you have to know their exact location.

We have a few more things to look up:
Invisible (Appendix2: conditions)
Blinded (Appendix2: conditions)
Invisibility (spell)
Invisibility (Appendix1: special abilities)

Invisible(Appendix2: conditions) (CRB Page 567)
Nothing relevant to locating.

Blinded(Appendix2: conditions) (CRB Page 565)
Not applicable, but can be if creatures are invisible because you are in complete darkness :D

Invisibility(spell) (CRB Page 301-302)
"... Ofcourse, the subject is not magically silenced, and certain other conditions can render the recipient detectable (such as swimming in water ... ) ..."
Detection is different from locating. The bonuses to stealth here are to not being DETECTED. The spell points out some ways that perhaps you could know their exact location. A light source on them, displacing water etc. And I would add/say that creating an aerial displacement could do the same, blanketing the area in ash, creating other clouds of visible aerial debris.

Invisibility(Appendix1: special abilities) (CRB Page 563-564)
" ... creatures can be heard. smelled, or felt. ..."
" ... A creature can generally notice the presence of an active invisible creature within 30 feet with a DC 20 perception check"
" ... It's practically impossible(+20DC) to pinpoint an invisible creatures location with a perception check. ..."

Modifiers from the chart I think are a little screwy. But we will use common sense to work through this.

To copy it as its written in my CRB

Invisible creature is.................Perception (DC modifiers)
In combat or speaking.....................-20
Moving at half speed.........................-5
Moving at full speed........................-10
Running or Charging.......................-20
Not Moving......................-40 (should be +40?)
Using Stealth....................Stealth check +20
Some distance away.............+1 per 10 feet
Behind an obstacle(door).................+5
Behind an obstacle(stone wall)......+15

It should be fairly obvious that "In combat or speaking" should be a penalty as well as the Moving at half, full or running. Not moving should NOT be a penalty so we have to consider if this is +40 to the DC. I would argue that although it is a HUGE bonus, it makes sense since not moving in this case refers to ANY movement, and not just move actions.

Locating an invisible creature happens in two ways an at two levels of success.
1) know something is there.
2) know where it actually is.

The DC is going to vary slightly depending on how well you understand how to build a perception check, but don't worry about this to much. The point to make is, that the DC is +20 for being invisible. If they beat THAT dc by 20, then they also know the creatures exact location.(until it moves)

creature is walking 20 feet from you.
To hear the sound of a creature walking is base DC 10. This creature is invisible so DC is 30(10+20). Invisible bonus is reduced according to the above chart conditions in this case walking is -5 so DC is 25(10+20-5) 20 feet away is +2 so DC is 27 (10+20-5+2)

one might argue that the distance modifier is doubled since it is on both charts, but then you would also double behind a door, and that makes no sense. (Of course you shouldn't really get the +20 invisible bonus behind the door either, but it's just a rule, and we have to allow it to be imperfect)

So DC 27 to know it is walking near you. But DC 47 to know its exact location.
(There are other correct solutions using modifiers differently. just use your judgement and then stick with it as a house rule.)

Stealth just changes the base DC. You still add 20 for being invisible and still add 20 more to locate.

If you want to make zombies as scary as they would be in real life, make them contagious. :D

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A good trick for players who "can't play paladins" is to have them write up a long back story. They can talk with the GM about the actual character moments, saved village from X, found lost artifact of Y, etc.
Once they have 10-15 GM approved moments, they have to write up a good 5 pages or so of history. This should help them remember who the character is, and try and meet the characters goals stubbornly, rather then give into the players desire to be rich and alive.

Also you are lucky to have good examples at the table. You could try to openly praise these kinds of actions in the attempt to classically condition your players. :P

I am more or less in this exact situation.

Two types of pen and paper dice gaming.
1)Epic adventure with challenge and glory.
2)Land of make believe where we play tea party for 3 hours.

A lot of players cant tell the difference, but most GM's can't stand a tea party. You and I probably agree, that in order for pathfinder to be a GAME, there has to be rules, and the rules have to help determine the outcome of our desires.

Such is the curse of being the go to GM. You have a strong opinion of what is fair, and can probably know more rules then your respective rules lawyer. The key point though, is that you can not have the best of both worlds. Either you are the GM and you can keep your opinion on what is fair, or you can be a player and enjoy the first person view of choice and discovery.

I, too, struggle with playing in the world of a player. Sometimes I will feel cheated that the creatures AC's(and other stats) are clearly made up on the spot. Or perhaps your perception check fails when your GM sees you rolled a 5, even though you have +'s out the wazoo. These types of things are the traits of an inexperienced/lazy GM and many players just want to play tea party when they run a game... because it is easier.

I suspect by your complaint that you are an experience GM who prepares for his players a decent amount in order to challenge them and give them opportunity for glory. Unfortunately, if you want to be a player your choices are limited. Either live in a tea party world and enjoy the story(until they get better at playing the game), or find/build a group with mostly GM's.

I am in the process of creating a GM group, and the hope is that the rules will be known well enough to not have many disputes(at least during game time) And that players will be able to create a character with more then just a stat block and an attitude. I suspect I will be the first to GM, but perhaps in a year or so I will be rewarded with getting to play a character in a world he can really grow and achieve true glory, not just some tea party hand outs.(a +5 sword at level 2... really?)

Until then, I have to accept that the players are going to try to jump on the back of the dragon at level 3, and that the GM is going to pull punches when he likes a player, because after all all the stats are made up and its all just make believe anyway.

No matter what you do, some tolerance will be good for you. Best of luck achieving your goals.


Only "using" a shield applies its respective ACP.

Shields: If a character is wearing armor and using a shield, both armor check penalties apply.

Not quite talking about a shield by itself, but I think it implies what you need.

All valid, but the character doesn't need to worry about the loss of power by not full attacking. I am not in a group that I have to worry about min maxing. The goal is to make a mobile archer that looks cool jumping across a cavern chasm while flipping in the air and taking a shot at his enemies before landing. Or moving from tree to tree taking a shot between the two points at the optimal angle.

Really looking for something that stacks with Vital Strike.

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