Rule on Creating Scrolls and using someone else's spells


Rules Questions

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Alright, I feel better now. I managed to find where in the book this stuff is printed. It is not in the magic item creation section at all, rather it is at the beginning of the magic item description section, on page 461:

Quote:


Requirements: Certain requirements must be met in order
for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells,
and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and
race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given
immediately following the item’s caster level.
A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has
prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a
sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or
spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces
the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation
process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or
one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects
is used to supply a prerequisite.
It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in
the creation of an item, with each participant providing one
or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may
even be necessary.
If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they
must agree among themselves who will be considered the
creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator’s
level must be known.

So yes, two casters can actually work together to make a wand, potion, scroll, etc, but what the section I quoted earlier on creating them means is that one of the people helping in making the item must be able to supply the spell needed in order to make the item. This requirement cannot be skipped by raising the DC.


Enevhar Aldarion wrote:

Alright, I feel better now. I managed to find where in the book this stuff is printed. It is not in the magic item creation section at all, rather it is at the beginning of the magic item description section, on page 461:

Quote:


STUFF
So yes, two casters can actually work together to make a wand, potion, scroll, etc, but what the section I quoted earlier on creating them means is that one of the people helping in making the item must be able to supply the spell needed in order to make the item. This requirement cannot be skipped by raising the DC.

At least it is in the book, a discrepancy that large between two sources by the same company when the sources are supposed to be the "same" would REALLY irk me.


Skylancer4 wrote:
Enevhar Aldarion wrote:

Alright, I feel better now. I managed to find where in the book this stuff is printed. It is not in the magic item creation section at all, rather it is at the beginning of the magic item description section, on page 461:

Quote:

STUFF

So yes, two casters can actually work together to make a wand, potion, scroll, etc, but what the section I quoted earlier on creating them means is that one of the people helping in making the item must be able to supply the spell needed in order to make the item. This requirement cannot be skipped by raising the DC.

At least it is in the book, a discrepancy that large between two sources by the same company when the sources are supposed to be the "same" would REALLY irk me.

I think that we're all on the same page now, in that all magical items can be created cooperatively, and that spell-trigger and spell-completion items have to incorporate the casting of the spell(s) they produce into the creation process.

Skylancer4 wrote:
... By a strict reading of the PFRPG core book I'd say no. ...

I don't mean this to be taken personally in any way; Skylancer4 you are clearly well-versed in the content of the rules, and I do agree with Oliver McShade in the statement that the segment could be presented with more clarity. That being said, I have to contest the notion you present of a "strict" reading of the rules (in the broader sense of how we read the rules in general). The only possible "strict" reading of the core book that supports the specific conclusion you advance in this quote is a reading wherein the scope of the reading (and consideration of it) is too narrow, and denies the larger context of the narrowly-read passage. Taking this as an example, generally speaking in a segment of the rules that addresses a topic, the entirety of the segment must be read and evaluated as a system - to do otherwise is to arrive at a conclusion from an invalid premise.

The specific invalid premise in this case might be that the statement from which the conclusion is derived is assumed to stipulate a condition that a semantic evaluation reveals is not actually so stipulated - this has been the case with the statement "In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."

Charender does this as well:

Charender wrote:

I would agree with you except for the fact that specific rules override general rules. The rules allowing for cooperation when creating magics items are general rules. Then there are specific rules under the types of item creation stating the creator must know the spell.

It is hard to tell if that is a specific rule overriding the general rule, a reiteration of the general rule, or just a copy and paste error.

Emphasis mine

The requirements for -trigger and -completion items require the creator to "meet the spell prerequisites" which, since the means for doing that was defined earlier in the paragraph, is not the same as stating that the creator "must know the spell." If the sentence were to be read by itself, independently of any other remarks or statements about the subject, I would agree that the latter interpretation would be implied by the former wording, but the sentence is not presented independently, and therefore must be examined, analyzed, and interpreted as a part of the section of rules it is presented with.

(To address the last remark in that quote, this is not a specific rule overriding a general rule, nor is it a reiteration of the general rule, nor is it a copy/paste error. It is the addition of a specific rule dealing with a limited subset of the cases addressed by the general rules.)

Again, my intent in calling out these specific cases is only to illustrate the more generally applicable underlying principles about how the rules are read and interpreted and understood. Please take no offense from my remarks, as none is intended!

As an aside, regarding the comment:

meatrace wrote:
Doskius Steel is entirely to smart for his own good, and I doff my cap to him for his eloquent semantics and mastery of legalese.

I thank you for the compliment to my semantics, but object to the allegation of the use of legalese - I was only expressing in English my logical evaluation of the semantics at hand in an attempt to be clear about the nature of my evaluation. (I do admit that in the informal context of the rules system, certain things are often described as "rules-legal" or "illegal" and in that semantic framework my remarks took on a localized legalistic nature, but I dislike this choice of semantics as it feels too rigid for talking about the rules of a gaming system.)


<@><@> rolls eyes
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Thank god it is somewhere in the book.

Magic Item Creation Reference
Page 461
(big gap filled with magic items)
Page 548-553

So we can now all agree, all magic items can be created with help.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

With the specific exception of Spell Completion and Spell Trigger as stated in said rules. All sentences must be heeded.

Oliver McShade wrote:

<@><@> rolls eyes

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.
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Thank god it is somewhere in the book.

Magic Item Creation Reference
Page 461
(big gap filled with magic items)
Page 548-553

So we can now all agree, all magic items can be created with help.


Shar Tahl wrote:
With the specific exception of Spell Completion and Spell Trigger as stated in said rules. All sentences must be heeded.

If you mean:

page 549 PF phb =

""Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the items's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.""

I still think this means you can not take the +5 to DC. You can get someone else to provide the said spells, as listed on page 461.

So even Spell Completion and Spell Trigger magic items can be made by; (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). As listed on page 461.


Oliver McShade wrote:
Shar Tahl wrote:
With the specific exception of Spell Completion and Spell Trigger as stated in said rules. All sentences must be heeded.

If you mean:

page 549 PF phb =

""Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the items's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites.""

I still think this means you can not take the +5 to DC. You can get someone else to provide the said spells, as listed on page 461.

So even Spell Completion and Spell Trigger magic items can be made by; (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). As listed on page 461.

The problem is that a strict reading of the RAW does not allow for cooperation when creating scrolls.

By the RAW, I get...
General rules(what you quoted above) allow for cooperation when creating items.
Specific rules for scroll creation state the creator must know the spell, and thus does not allow for cooperation.
Specific rules for scrolls override the general rules for item creation.

While I think the RAI was meant to allow cooperation, a strict reading of RAW states that the creator must know the spell to create a scroll.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

That is what i was referring to. Specific overrides General.

"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created.(General Rule) Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the items's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory.(Specific Rule) In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."


Shar Tahl wrote:

That is what i was referring to. Specific overrides General.

"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created.(General Rule) Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the items's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory.(Specific Rule) In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."

And from the scroll creation section of the rules...

"(Specific Rule)The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)"

It then goes on to talk about how scribing the spell triggers the use of the spell slot. My gut is telling me that this part is a cut and paste from 3.5, and thus was never updated to reflect the changes to the general crafting rules that were made in Pathfinder.

Edit: I did a quick audit of the 3.5 SRD, and it is almost the exact same wording. The only significant difference is that part where you can ignore spell prerequisites for a +5 DC.


Shar Tahl wrote:

That is what i was referring to. Specific overrides General.

"Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created.(General Rule) Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the items's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory.(Specific Rule) In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."

Also, were does it say in the book, one is a general rule, and the other is a specific rule ?? ...... Just not buying it.

In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."

Meeting their spell prerequisites...

Page 461 = It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.


Charender wrote:
Shar Tahl wrote:


And from the scroll creation section of the rules...

"(Specific Rule)The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.

Which is listed for each and every single item creation feat. So if you are using this rule, then you will not be able to create ANY magic item with help.

The way i read it:
Page 460-461 = Magic Item Descriptions = Requirements =

Then

Page 548-549 = Magic item Creation (Real big header) = Talks about item creation first. 1 Paragraph): Talks about the DC need for item creation. 2 Paragraph): Talks about what prerequisites need, and there exceptions. 3 Paragraph): Talks about caster level. 4 Paragraph): Supply Costs. 5 Paragraph): Spell Materal Supply Costs. 6 Paragraph): Talks about the Work area needed to create the item in. 7 Paragraph): Time need to create the item. 8 paragraph): talks about how many items you can create at once ""which is one"".
Page 549 = Magic Item Gold piece values = which give 11 more paragraph on rules that are used for the creation of magic items.

Page 550 = Has the Magic chart.

Page 550-553 = Then lists the Feats one after another.

The way i look at it page 548-550 came before listing the feats, because all this information retains to the item creation feats. This includes the exception (which we have been talking about), on page 549 first full paragraph on that page.

Guess what i am trying to saying is that i see the Specific rules (listed on page 461), working with the Specific rules (listed on page 548-550) working with the specific rules (listed on page 550-553). All the rules on page 548-549 are applied to the creation of items listed in 550-553.


Oliver McShade wrote:


Also, were does it say in the book, one is a general rule, and the other is a specific rule ?? ...... Just not buying it.

Context. General rules are listed first, then the specific exceptions are listed afterwards. That is the pattern throughout the entire rule book.


Charender wrote:
Oliver McShade wrote:


Also, were does it say in the book, one is a general rule, and the other is a specific rule ?? ...... Just not buying it.

Context. General rules are listed first, then the specific exceptions are listed afterwards. That is the pattern throughout the entire rule book.

Well in that case page 550-553 takes president.

And under each and every crafting feat it say....
The creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the casse of a sorcerer or bard), and must provide any focuses the spell requires .

Which means that only the creator can provide the spell for creating the magic item.

Which also means, there is no point in getting help creating magic item.

..............................................................

Fun thing is, i was about to concede, on Potions, Wands and Scroll. Due to something written not in the back of the book, but in the front.

Page 113-137
Under the Feats: Craft Wand, Brew Potion, and Scribe Scroll = It Said for Scrolls = "You can create a scroll of any spell that you know." It Said for Potion = "You can create a potion of any 3rd-level or lower spell that you know and that targets one or more creatures". It said for Wands = You can creat a wand of any 4th-level or lower spell that you know."

Was going to concede on these because they said ""You Know"".

On the other hand, It did not say that for Staves or any of the other creation feats.

..............................................................

Still disagree with your line of argument. because:

(Specific Rule) In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."

was referring to:

(General Rule) The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.

And Not to:

(General Rule) Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the items's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

..............................................................


In cooperative creation isn't the "creator" both characters. In this case the scroll's Creator (Bard & Wizard). The Creator (Bard & Wizard) must supply all the requirements. The Creator (Bard & Wizard) must have the spell known or memorized, and must have the correct feat.

By the collaborative creation rules these requirements can be split anyway between the two. One participant is used to set the Caster Level.

The Exchange RPG Superstar 2010 Top 16

Skylancer4 wrote:

As for it being official I've asked that, given that there is in fact Pathfinder Society organized play it is quite possible that it is in fact "official."

Bear in mind that neither Scribe Scroll nor any other Item Creation feats are allowed in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. Were a site to give an "official" PFS OP interpretation of such feats, the site would be bogus.


Oliver McShade wrote:

(Specific Rule) In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."

was referring to:

(General Rule) The DC to create a magic item increases by +5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet.

I agree with this.

Quote:

And Not to:

((General Rule) Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the items's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed).

This has a specific exception under scroll creation...

(Specific Rule)The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.

RAI: I believe this rule is just an artifact carried over from older editions where cooperative crafting wasn't possible.
RAW: It can be interpreted as an specific exception to the general rule on cooperation.


3 people marked this as FAQ candidate.

Worst part is i can see 5 different way to look at it.
..................................

A) Potions, wand, and Scroll = Require the person with the feat also be the only one to cast the spells needed. (Does not apply to Staves)

B) Potions, Wand, Staves, and Scroll = Require the person with the feat also be the only one to cast the spells needed.

C) Wands, Staves and Scroll = Require the person with the feat also be the only one to cast the spells needed. (Does not apply to potions)

D) All magic items can be created with help, and anyone helping can provide the spells.

E) All magic items require the person with the feat to also be the only one to cast the spells needed. (which mean the only help that you can provide is like blacksmith or carpenter).

...................................

Depending on which rules you consider General, and which you consider Specific.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Oliver McShade wrote:
Charender wrote:
Oliver McShade wrote:


Also, were does it say in the book, one is a general rule, and the other is a specific rule ?? ...... Just not buying it.

Context. General rules are listed first, then the specific exceptions are listed afterwards. That is the pattern throughout the entire rule book.

Well in that case page 550-553 takes president.

And under each and every crafting feat it say....
The creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the casse of a sorcerer or bard), and must provide any focuses the spell requires .

Which means that only the creator can provide the spell for creating the magic item.

Which also means, there is no point in getting help creating magic item.

Except that, that wording appears under EVERY magical item, not just scrolls, wands, and staves.

Nevertheless, it's clear to most people that other items can be crafted by teams of spellcasters. Therefore, I'm failing to see what makes spell trigger items any different (as far as team crafting is concerned).

Also, Dorje Sylas makes a good point. If multiple spellcrafters got together to make an item, they collectively are the creators and as such meet the qualifications of the rule.

Those put together tell me that you can co-op ANY magic item.


Ya, i really do not see the point in making 3 players in the game all take the same feat, just so they can create the same Type of magic items (with different spells).

Creation Feat are already boring enough, without making everyone take the same feat, that is not being used during the adventure.


1 person marked this as FAQ candidate.
Oliver McShade wrote:

Ya, i really do not see the point in making 3 players in the game all take the same feat, just so they can create the same Type of magic items (with different spells).

Creation Feat are already boring enough, without making everyone take the same feat, that is not being used during the adventure.

That has pretty much been our house rule since 3.0 The only thing PF changed is the part where you can ignore spell prereqs for a +5 DC on most items.

Liberty's Edge

2 people marked this as FAQ candidate.
Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I am surprised no one has flagged it FAQ with all this debate. just did to see if any devs come and clarify


Chris Mortika wrote:
Skylancer4 wrote:

As for it being official I've asked that, given that there is in fact Pathfinder Society organized play it is quite possible that it is in fact "official."

Bear in mind that neither Scribe Scroll nor any other Item Creation feats are allowed in Pathfinder Society Organized Play. Were a site to give an "official" PFS OP interpretation of such feats, the site would be bogus.

Organized play has a document that has exceptions to the core rules, my intent was the site is as official as the rule book, giving them a place for centralized rules accessible from the site itself (which coincidentally would have the organized play documents as well).


As I understand it, the creator is the person who scribes the scroll. They must have the feat and know the spell. Someone else could make the paper or vellium, the ink, obtain and cut the quill, ect. Someone else could add the trap if an unfriendly tries to use it.


Jumping in...

April 2010 printing of the Core Rule Book. Pages 550 thru 553

EVERY item creation section has the exact same text - "the creator must have..."

Some of them have the following text appended to the beginning of the paragraph: "If spells are involved..."

Given that *every* section says the exact same thing when spells are needed to create the item, as I read this, the general rules (page 549) should then apply.

Scrolls, wands and staves *always* require spells.

Thus you could use a scroll to create another scroll or have the wizard create a scroll from the sorcerer's spells known and add it to his spell book, or have the druid (with craft staff) help the bard create the "guitar of demolition (sympathetic vibration and shout)"

One character provides the feat, one the spell

Just my $0.02 on how I'm reading this...

JohnBear

Grand Lodge

Pathfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Charender wrote:


Edit: I did a quick audit of the 3.5 SRD, and it is almost the exact same wording. The only significant difference is that part where you can ignore spell prerequisites for a +5 DC.

That is a general rule which is overridden for the specific cases of spell completion and spell trigger items. You can't get help with these classes of items.


LazarX wrote:
Charender wrote:


Edit: I did a quick audit of the 3.5 SRD, and it is almost the exact same wording. The only significant difference is that part where you can ignore spell prerequisites for a +5 DC.
That is a general rule which is overridden for the specific cases of spell completion and spell trigger items. You can't get help with these classes of items.

*sigh*

Yes, you can get help. What you can't do is skip having spell cast. This is different then making a Flaming Sword where you can choose to take a +5 DC for not having Fireball.

If you make a scroll of Fireball someone/something must supply the spell. You cannot skip that.

The use of helpers and other spell casting items are called out elsewhere in the rules. They are general exceptions how requirements can be meet no entry directly forbids thier use. All the specific entries are written (like the rest of the general rules) as if only a single caster and no outside aid is making the item. They do not need to restate all the previously detailed ways requirements can be meet.


Around and Around we go, were we stop know-body knows.

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Yep. It basically going to be GM interpretation since no devs have come chimed in. Rule the way it works in your version of the game world.
I already called a ruling for the game I am running. The wizard will not be able to scribe a cure light wounds spell from a bard.


I'm with Shar.
A Cleric cannot dictate a spell in a way a Wizard can write it down.
Not with current rules.


The general "prequisite" as defined in the preceeding sections does not equate to the specific "spell prerequisite" in the sections on spell completion and spell trigger. The logical fallacy committed is false premise. I agree with LazarX, Shar, and Goth.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Except for the fact that language is basically identical in all later specific item type entires.

Armor

Quote:
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the armor, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the armor triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the armor's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

Weapon

Quote:
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the weapon, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the weapon triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the weapon's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

Potion

Quote:
The creator must have prepared the spell to be placed in the potion (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires.

Rod

Quote:
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the rod, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the rod triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the rod's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

Scroll

Quote:
The creator must have prepared the spell to be scribed (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any material component or focus the spell requires. A material component is consumed when she begins writing, but a focus is not. (A focus used in scribing a scroll can be reused.) The act of writing triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting until the character has rested and regained spells. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)

Anyone noticing a pattern here?

Staves

Quote:
The creator must have prepared the spells to be stored (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focus the spells require as well as material component costs sufficient to activate the spell 50 times (divide this amount by the number of charges one use of the spell expends). Material components are consumed when he begins working, but focuses are not. (A focus used in creating a staff can be reused.) The act of working on the staff triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the staff 's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

Wands

Quote:
The creator must have prepared the spell to be stored (or must know the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) and must provide any focuses the spell requires. Fifty of each needed material component are required (one for each charge). Material components are consumed when work begins, but focuses are not. A focus used in creating a wand can be reused. The act of working on the wand triggers the prepared spell, making it unavailable for casting during each day devoted to the wand's creation. (That is, that spell slot is expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if it had been cast.)

Wondrous Items

Quote:
If spells are involved in the prerequisites for making the item, the creator must have prepared the spells to be cast (or must know the spells, in the case of a sorcerer or bard) but need not provide any material components or focuses the spells require. The act of working on the item triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the item's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

If you selectively ignore the general rule in preceding section regarding collaboration on requirements....

Quote:


Certain requirements must be met in order for a character to create a magic item. These include feats, spells, and miscellaneous requirements such as level, alignment, and race or kind. The prerequisites for creation of an item are given immediately following the item's caster level.

A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the case of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger magic item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of those objects is used to supply a prerequisite.

It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary.

If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator's level must be known.

Then clearly no item save one can be made with assistance.... In your misreading the only time that one can collaboratively craft is a Ring, as no mention is made of specifically of the "creator" needing to prepare spells.

Quote:
Rings that duplicate spells with costly material components add in the value of 50 × the spell's component cost. Having a spell with a costly component as a prerequisite does not automatically incur this cost. The act of working on the ring triggers the prepared spells, making them unavailable for casting during each day of the ring's creation. (That is, those spell slots are expended from the caster's currently prepared spells, just as if they had been cast.)

To warp up this post, considering both characters are creators on the item either character can provide the spells. This is at least inferred by...

Quote:
If two or more characters cooperate to create an item, they must agree among themselves who will be considered the creator for the purpose of determinations where the creator's level must be known.

To state it clearly, the only time there is any distinction between the two (or more) as creators is when you pick the Caster Level of the item. For every other aspect of the process they are both the items creator. That includes proving spells.

I disagree with LazarX, Shar, Goth, and Selian's logic, interpretation, and overly narrow reading.


Pathfinder Maps, Pawns Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Dorje Sylas wrote:
Except for the fact that language is basically identical in all later specific item type entries.

That's what I've been saying all along in multiple threads!


Whoever said less is more....you can try to justify your attempt to create an exploit. Your campaign, your rules. As for logic, your attempt has failed.


Oliver McShade wrote:

Worst part is i can see 5 different way to look at it.

..................................

A) Potions, wand, and Scroll = Require the person with the feat also be the only one to cast the spells needed. (Does not apply to Staves)

B) Potions, Wand, Staves, and Scroll = Require the person with the feat also be the only one to cast the spells needed.

C) Wands, Staves and Scroll = Require the person with the feat also be the only one to cast the spells needed. (Does not apply to potions)

D) All magic items can be created with help, and anyone helping can provide the spells.

E) All magic items require the person with the feat to also be the only one to cast the spells needed. (which mean the only help that someone can provide is like blacksmith or carpenter).

...................................

Depending on which rules you consider General, and which you consider Specific.

Like i said before, around and around we go, were we stop...is up to your individual Game Master to know.

Unless we hear something official, it looks like it is left up to the individual Game Master to decide which method they want to use. The way the rules are written, and how people have interpreted those said rules, all seem reasonable to me.

Grand Lodge

mmmmm

I can see arguments for both side being perfectly valid.

Therefore I go with my general guideline for running a game. Is it fun for everyone involved? Does it derail the story? If yes to the first, and no for the second, then I allow it. The point of the game is to have fun. If rules get in the way of having fun, then the rule is wrong and must be corrected with a house rule.

Do note that often times this is situational and the GM, AND the players should consider their decisions together and carefully.

But in the end, fun trumps everything else.


Krome wrote:

mmmmm

I can see arguments for both side being perfectly valid.

Therefore I go with my general guideline for running a game. Is it fun for everyone involved? Does it derail the story? If yes to the first, and no for the second, then I allow it. The point of the game is to have fun. If rules get in the way of having fun, then the rule is wrong and must be corrected with a house rule.

Do note that often times this is situational and the GM, AND the players should consider their decisions together and carefully.

But in the end, fun trumps everything else.

Yep. And after thinking about what I have posted here and what the book says and what other posters have said, what I am going to go with as my house rule is that all magic items except scrolls can be cooperatively created. I can easily see one person prepping the materials and another person casting the spell energy into the item, but a scroll just does not feel right if the person who knows the spell is not also the one writing the scroll. I just don't see a way that I like that would make scroll writing anything other than a solo project.


Enevhar Aldarion wrote:
I just don't see a way that I like that would make scroll writing anything other than a solo project.

• Ouija board effect.

• Scribe scroll feat owner does the primary enchantments that draw out and trap the magical energies being scribed, and maintains them while spell is written.

Remember the process takes anywhere from 2 to 8 hours or more. That's enough time of a little back and forth between the co-creators.


Selian wrote:
The general "prequisite" as defined in the preceeding sections does not equate to the specific "spell prerequisite" in the sections on spell completion and spell trigger. The logical fallacy committed is false premise. I agree with LazarX, Shar, and Goth.

If the alleged false premise is the premise that "spell prerequisites" are "prerequisites" as mentioned earlier in the paragraph, I again quote: "Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the items's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)." If this is the alleged false premise, please explain to me how the bolded section fails to identify "spell prerequisites" as "prerequisites". If this is not the false premise that was meant, please explicitly identify it.

I continue to assert the validity of my logic.


Doskious Steele wrote:
Selian wrote:
The general "prequisite" as defined in the preceeding sections does not equate to the specific "spell prerequisite" in the sections on spell completion and spell trigger. The logical fallacy committed is false premise. I agree with LazarX, Shar, and Goth.

If the alleged false premise is the premise that "spell prerequisites" are "prerequisites" as mentioned earlier in the paragraph, I again quote: "Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the items's creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed)." If this is the alleged false premise, please explain to me how the bolded section fails to identify "spell prerequisites" as "prerequisites". If this is not the false premise that was meant, please explicitly identify it.

I continue to assert the validity of my logic.

I agree with your logic. BUT I can also see their logic. Until i see rule clean up or official response from Pathfinder. All i can assume is that they left if vague for multi-interpataions to acure.


I was just reminded of something, and I do not think anyone else here brought it up, but there is something in the APG that changes how all this may or may not work:

Quote:


Cooperative Crafting

Your assistance makes item crafting far more efficient.

Prerequisites: 1 rank in any Craft skill, any item
creation feat.

Benefit: You can assist another character in crafting
mundane and magical items. You must both possess the
relevant Craft skill or item creation feat, but either one
of you can fulfill any other prerequisites for crafting the
item. You provide a +2 circumstance bonus on any Craft
or Spellcraft checks related to making an item, and your
assistance doubles the gp value of items that can be crafted
each day.


And there it is, the card rule.
Both have to have scribe scroll, one of them has this feat.
No it doesn't let a wizard help a cleric without scribe scroll make a cure light wounds scroll.
It does allow some benifits from cooperation.


Oliver McShade wrote:
Oliver McShade wrote:

Worst part is i can see 5 different way to look at it.

..................................

A) Potions, wand, and Scroll = Require the person with the feat also be the only one to cast the spells needed. (Does not apply to Staves)

B) Potions, Wand, Staves, and Scroll = Require the person with the feat also be the only one to cast the spells needed.

C) Wands, Staves and Scroll = Require the person with the feat also be the only one to cast the spells needed. (Does not apply to potions)

D) All magic items can be created with help, and anyone helping can provide the spells.

E) All magic items require the person with the feat to also be the only one to cast the spells needed. (which mean the only help that someone can provide is like blacksmith or carpenter).

...................................

Depending on which rules you consider General, and which you consider Specific.

Like i said before, around and around we go, were we stop...is up to your individual Game Master to know.

Unless we hear something official, it looks like it is left up to the individual Game Master to decide which method they want to use. The way the rules are written, and how people have interpreted those said rules, all seem reasonable to me.

Better debated on this tread

RULE ON CREATING SCROLLS AND USING SOMEONE ELSE'S SPELLS


Selian said it all.

Selian wrote:

The general "prequisite" as defined in the preceeding sections does not equate to the specific "spell prerequisite" in the sections on spell completion and spell trigger. The logical fallacy committed is false premise. I agree with LazarX, Shar, and Goth.

Whoever said less is more....you can try to justify your attempt to create an exploit. Your campaign, your rules. As for logic, your attempt has failed.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

PF phb = Page 549 = Magic item creation

"In addition, you cannot create spell-trigger and spell-completion magic items without meeting their spell prerequisites."

PF phb = Page 460-461 = Magic item Descriptions = under requirements

"A spell prerequisite may be provided by a character who has prepared the spell (or who knows the spell, in the cast of a sorcerer or bard), or through the use of a spell completion or spell trigger item or a spell-like ability that produces the desired spell effect. For each day that passes in the creation process, the creator must expend one spell completion item or one charge from a spell trigger item if either of these objects is used to supply a prerequisite.
It is possible for more than one character to cooperate in the creation of an item, with each participant providing one or more of the prerequisites. In some cases, cooperation may even be necessary."

.............

So i take this to mean that 2 caster working together, can make a spell-trigger or spell-completion device, as long as one of them meets the Prerequisite.


Of all the prereqs;
You must have the feat.
You must have the spell present during creation.

Everything else can be missing but its harder to do.
+5dc per missing prereq

Although the spell can not be missing,
It can be fudged with another method of casting that spell at time of creation.

This could be a scroll you bought,
or a caster willing to spend the time to create this item with you.

If the finish product is a spell completion item, and that spell is not on your spell list, this will require a UMD check for you to use.

Hopefully that is clear.
Note: "Fudging" the spell requirement does NOT add 5 to the DC since that requirement is being met, even though it is implied that you should be the one to meet it.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Shar Tahl wrote:
I am surprised no one has flagged it FAQ with all this debate. just did to see if any devs come and clarify

A dev did answer this allready, at least in regards to scrolls.

SKR on cooperative scroll creation

Essentially, yes cooperative creating works.

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