Feral Gnasher Barbarian gets to grapple on their bite attacks. It is Goblin only, but you could do it with Human (or anything that can count as human) with Racial Heritage.
Scaleheart Skinwalker is another option, though incompatible with Feral Gnasher.
Mooncursed Barbarian- Use crocodile as main rage form (Gives you swim speed and a bite attack). Take rage powers : Beast totem line, Breathtaker,other thematic rage powers.
I would ignore the Death Roll feat and replace it with the Raging Grappler rage power (no prerequisites)... taking the Extra Rage Power feat for it or take it as a rage power. It allows you to deal damage when you initiate a grapple (as if you had maintained to deal damage) along with making your opponent prone as a free action when you DO maintain a grapple that does not make you go prone... This rage power is hands down better with the only drawback of being only usable while you are raging. This would stack nicely with Animal Fury as it allows a free bite attack on maintaining a grapple, allowing you to deal bite damage every time you successfully initiate a grapple and your bite damage twice, plus, making your opponent prone when making a successful grapple check to maintain to damage!
I like Raging Cannibal only for the Razor-Toothed fury ability but the rest seem to only be useful vs an enemy of the same creature type, which is limiting in my opinion.
Mooncursed adds the crocodile features but you lose the bonus to STR and CON from rage... but you do gain a swim speed and later on the Grab ability.
Half-Orc makes a good race as it gains access to Bloody Bite and Feasting Bite rage powers... unfortunately this limits you to Mooncursed to get the Crocodile aspects you want.
Skinwalker Scale-heart would give you your crocodile features without limiting you to Mooncursed archetype. They can maintain their transformation indefinitely if they wish... I would take the Extra Feature feat once or twice.
Lizardfolk are great because you are actually reptilian and get +2 STR and +2 CON, bite (although weak), claws, swim speed 30ft, +2 natural armor and Hold Breath ability.
I recommend Lizardfolk- Savage Barbarian. If your GM is flexible, see if he will allow a tail slap natural attack or access to the bloody bite rage power.
Rage Powers
Animal Fury
Raging Grappler
Beast Totems (pounce!)
Breathtaker
Body Bludgeon (because it's hilarious)
Feats
Extra Rage Power
Dangerous Tail
Raging Vitality
Improved Unarmed Strike
Improved Grapple
Greater Grapple
Rapid Grappler
^that would make a nasty grappler. My 2 copper pieces... hope this helps :)
Hmm, that is interesting, I was thinking going for the bloody-knuckled rowdy bloodrager archetype with the primalist for some rage powers. The spells could be temporary bursts of stamina, speed etc. However, for a character without armor, the savage barbarian isn´t bad at all.
I see Breathtaker mentioned a lot, but seems kind of dependent on there being water nearby. What about including the feat Chokehold? It lets me force holding breath anywhere, using a grapple check, and then Breathtaker would quicken the speed at which they begin to suffocate? Even then, I feel like killing them with damage would still happen faster than killing them with suffocation. Also, there are probably lots of things that would be immune to suffocation anyway. Just not sure if it is worth the investment, unless there is something I'm missing.
I'm considering Oracle VMC for a 3rd party curse called Ravenous. It's a bit of a wait, but at 10th, I'd be gaining: a bite attack (1d6), the grab ability, +4 to start and maintain a grapple (this may or may not be the +4 that having grab provides; not sure) and the swallow whole ability. I'd also still be getting the 3 revelations across the career of the character, and an Orison if my Cha isn't tanked.
Grab and Swallow Whole would be excellent to have for biting, grappling and eating people, however, I think Oracle would have too low BAB to be an efficient grappler... the high BAB and +4 STR from Rage sound much more effective to me but I'm not familiar with the Oracle class. The +4 would be from the Grab ability I believe.
As a Killer Croc type character, staying near or trying to fight in water just makes sense as a Swim speed gives you a distinct advantage in combat while in water against those who dont'. If you wanna fight like a Crocodile, dragging people under water while eating them would definitely define that. Aside from them being at a disadvantage from underwater combat, they will most likely be struggling to bring the fight back onto the land to also avoid drowning. Remember, most creatures can only hold their breath for a number of rounds equal to twice their CON score... let's say it's a 14, making 28 rounds... but using more than a single Move or Standard action reduces the number of rounds they have left by one additional round, effectively making their breath hold 14 rounds while in constant combat. Breathtaker says a successful attack reduces their rounds of breath hold equal to your STR modifier! While raging your STR mod could be as high as +5 or more depending on your stats. Your opponent loses 2 rounds from fighting and let's say another 5 from your STR mod with Breathtaker making his breath hold from 28 to 21 in one round... and that's only with one successful attack. Imagine hitting with a bite, 2 claws and a tail slap.... 28 down to 6 and then they would have to swim to the surface, where you could just grapple them and pull them deeper again. Effectively, you could drown an opponent in around 3-4 rounds just from maintaining grapple (Animal Fury grants attack on maintain... three times with Rapid Grappler, also, I believe grapple checks are considered attack rolls... granting 6 possible successful attack rolls from maintain a grapple with Animal Fury and Rapid Grappler to employ Breathtaker to devastating effect). Yes this could work with Chokehold but you suffer a -5 to maintain and as soon as they escape your Grapple the rounds reset.
I'm not saying Breathtaker is a mandatory rage power but if you have a swim speed and can fight in water it adds a delicious amount of danger to your combat style, especially if you are already an indomitable grappler.
Mooncursed adds the crocodile features but you lose the bonus to STR and CON from rage... but you do gain a swim speed and later on the Grab ability.
I'm actually a huge fan of the Mooncursed. Sure you don't get +4 to STR and Con... but you do get +2 STR and Nat Armor which go great with Beast Totem and Guarded Stance for a nice tanky gator. The loss of -2 AC makes Bloodthirsty Armor so much better. The size increase to large/huge later on is a better damage increase that the +2 STR you're giving up, not to mention reach. Lets not forget those same size increases vastly help grappling later on. Finally the best part... you're not a croc all the time. No pesky NPCs treating you like a monster.
Ah, I had overlooked the stat boosts and Nat armor gained from Beast Shape! That definitely makes this option more useable in my eyes now. Does your Hybrid form allow these larger sizes as well or only if you assume the full animal form?
You could still be Lizardfolk, since it's still good for this with the ability scores, it's thematic, and you can keep up your theme even if you don't want to use rounds of rage. You have a swim speed even without raging, too.
Also, it does specify that you can become larger versions of both beast and hybrid forms.
Remember that you can still become a Medium version with Greater Shifting Rage and still gain slightly more benefit, too (though not as much benefit as the size increase would give). You're not forced to become a size that doesn't work for your location or situation.
One thing that isn't clear is that Hybrid Rage states your forelimbs "remain" hands, meaning you might be able to retain your Lizardfolk claw attacks in spite of the general polymorph rules.
Aaaagh I had a better response typed up but the site screwed up!
Unchained Barbarian is a slight downgrade from the core Barbarian; don't use it unless you've never played before and don't know how ability scores work.
Mooncursed Barbarian is your best bet for this build.
You're not going to get 1.5x Strength on your natural attack because you'll have claws and/or tail attack. If you don't go Mooncursed, pick up the Dangerous Tail feat.
Neither of the Oracle curses mentioned here are worthwhile for you.
Animal Fury likely isn't needed unless you want some of the powers with it as a prerequisite.
Remember that the larger size will give you reach.
The lack of actual ability score bonuses affects more than just saves; it will affect skills and features/abilities as well, and because it's a not a morale bonus you can't benefit from the Courageous weapon ability (put on an Amulet of Mighty Fists, in the case of a natural attack build). The temporary hit points from UnBarb rage won't stack with Raging Cannibal's Feast from Fury ability, by the way, whereas the bonus hit points from core Barbarian rage will.
For the Ravenous curse, Swallow Whole nauseates you for a round after disgorging (and depending on your GM it could be catastrophic is something cuts its way out) and you get nothing from the 10th level benefit. The curse entry also doesn't list the damage that swallow whole deals each round, which is a definite problem. The combat maneuver bonus is nice, though.
You'll get Grab at 11th level with Mooncursed, so that's not too far behind, though if you really want Swallow Whole, Mooncursed is a great option anyway as bigger Croco-man means bigger allowed targets to swallow and more natural armour means better stomach AC.
If a creature has only one natural attack, it is always made using the creature’s full base attack bonus and adds 1-1/2 times the creature’s Strength bonus on damage rolls. This increase does not apply if the creature has multiple attacks but only takes one.
Bites are primary attacks, though, so you can focus on the bite while still using the other attacks.
I'm still not sold on Mooncursed based on the above comparison I did. Is the +4 AC and slightly increased damage dice really worth the loss of accuracy, CMD, Fort, Ref, and Will? CMD will especially be important for a grapple build.
While the comparison isn't wrong, I still prefer Mooncursed. The size increase gives you more choices for what can be grappled. The accuracy isn't a large loss since all primary attacks use your full attack so it's not like you'll be dealing with the regular -5/-10/-15 of tertiary attacks. Setting also matters a lot, for instance will this be for an Adventure Path? Cause those things are alarmingly easy for even lightly twinked characters. As to the saves... well my table uses Unchained as the only barbarian so it's not a Fort loss for me, Ref isn't a HUGE deal most of the time, and Will, I plan on taking Iron Will for my Croc cause I want a Plover familiar (through Familiar Bond) for theme reasons but yeah, the Will is the only real loss from the Archetype for me and even then it's only a -1 after the feat at level 11 (and who cares about level 20).
I'm not 100% sure about if you get the natural attacks either, as that isn't mentioned in the spell.
If it's a polymorph effect (it is, since it imitates beast shape), you get all the natural attacks the chosen form has: "In addition to these benefits, you gain any of the natural attacks of the base creature, including proficiency in those attacks."
Regarding reach, normaly a crocodile would be large (long). One could argue that the hybrid form is humanoid enough to count as large (tall) and thus giving reach as normal.
Swim speed stays at 30 feet, you always take the lower number (or worse maneuverability) between what the form has and what the polymorph effect allows.
No trip, since you don't get death roll.
I would say the Hybrid form would grant 10ft reach as you are a Large humanoid. Unfortunately, Beast Shape never lists the Death Roll ability so you wouldn't get that in either form. Swim speed will always be 30ft because that is the swim speed of a crocodile, Beast Shape allows up to those speeds... so a Shark based Mooncursed would gain 60ft Swim at level 11+
Don't underrate the bonus of having Animal Fury if you are going to be a grappler, even if you already have a bite attack (Free bite attack as part of maintaining or breaking free from a grapple, +2 to all grapple checks that round if it hits)... this allows you to deal bite damage twice when maintaining to deal damage, 4 times with Greater Grapple (maintain as a move), and 6 times with Rapid Grappler! Assuming all of your grapple checks and attack rolls are successful and all 3 of your grapple checks are to deal damage... that's a lot of hurt.
Raging grappler adds damage when you initiate a grapple "as if you maintained to deal damage" as well as making them prone on an actual maintain.
Size doesn't affect what can/cannot be grappled. A tiny creature can grapple a colossal creature, if their grapple check is good enough (good luck with that with the special size modifiers though). If you just mean because of the special size modifier, that's a whopping +1 for being large, which I took into account in my comparison anyway.
Could have sworn the "one size category larger than you" thing applied to Grapple... it's part of Bull Rush, Drag, Overrun, Reposition and Trip... but it's not part of Grapple... the one that actually makes no sense for it not to be on. Odd.
Don't forget the bonuses from size increase at lvl 11 as well. One size larger for all damage rolls, +1 to CMB and CMD, -1 to attack rolls and AC, 10ft reach, grab.
Lvl 20 offers Huge, increasing all of those bonuses and penalties.
As far as Armor goes, I believe you retain its bonuses while using Hybrid form since Lycanthropes still use armor when they are in Hybrid form. Armor and Natural armor stack ;) You would lose your armor as it melds into your body when you assume animal form though.
I'm not saying whether or not it's the best way to go, that's up to how you want to play, but I didn't want you to overlook those things before deciding. Honestly, Grab is great but I wouldn't choose an archetype based only upon that, you don't "need" Grab to be deadly but the +4 would be nice. You do gain a 30ft Swim speed while using shifting rage in either form so you are flexible from Lizardfolk as far as having a Swim speed.
The Savage Jaw rage power allows you to gain Grab as a Free action once per rage... not the greatest option but it's there.
I think the loss of armor benefits (because of Polymorph effects) completely negates the NA bonus, since, at best, it will break even, but more than likely will actually be a loss.
As a Lizardfolk, I'd already have a swim speed, and a bite (though not low-light or dark vision, like I thought...). I'd also have claws, which is about equivalent to having a single tail slap.
With my build I planed on taking Beast Totem for the Natural armor so I'll be getting some nice Claws to go with it but between Guarded Stand and Imp. Beast Totem I'll have a nice +6 to AC around 10ish. Add in the Bloodthirsty armor anchant that Mooncursed gets better benefit from on a +1 Breastplate, I will have a nice 28AC while Raging at level 10. A ring of Prot and a Buckler should round things up nicely.
Don't forget the bonuses from size increase at lvl 11 as well. One size larger for all damage rolls, +1 to CMB and CMD, -1 to attack rolls and AC, 10ft reach, grab.
Lvl 20 offers Huge, increasing all of those bonuses and penalties.
You might be leaving out that the size increase lowers Dex which adds the CMB, so it effectively negates itself.
CMB is only STR, BAB and size. CMD does use DEX but also STR. Yes, the size bonus is negated by the DEX penalty but the STR and nat armor bonuses boost them respectively...
From Medium Size (Using Beast Shape II & III from Shifting Rage)
Large CMB= +3 [+1 size, +2 STR(from +4 to score)]
Large CMD= +2 [+1 size, -1 DEX(from -2 to score), +2 STR(from +4 to score)
Large AC= +2 [-1 size, -1 DEX(from -2 to score), +4 natural armor
Large Melee= +1 [-1 size, +2 STR(from +4 to score)
Huge CMB= +5 [+2 size, +3 STR(from +6 to score)]
Huge CMD= +3 [+2 size, -2 DEX(from -4 to score), +3 STR(from +6 to score)
Huge AC= +2 [-2 size, -2 DEX(from -4 to score), +6 natural armor
Huge Melee= +1 [-2 size, +3 STR(from +6 to score)
Aside from the increased size for damage rolls, your AC and attack rolls do go up but remain equal for both Large and Huge sizes. The real difference is in CMB and CMD which both increase the larger you become from your base size.
So basically you started arguing that Mooncursed was inferior due to ability scores even with the size bonuses, but you neglected to tell us the actual reason you were saying that is because you have access to really broken 3rd-party feats and archetypes?
As I mentioned before, don't forget that if you do end up using Raging Cannibal you definitely want to be a Core Barbarian, since Feed from Fury doesn't stack with UnBarb's temporary HP.
Oh, and Raging Cannibal also gives up Improved Uncanny Dodge just like Mooncursed, but also gives up regular Uncanny Dodge as well as Damage Reduction.
Be aware that all my advice assumes you DON'T have some 3rd-party feat or archetype that gets you everything super easy.
Now that you mention it, armor would indeed by deactivated in shifting rage form. Compare Agathial Vigilante, who does something similar, but has explicit text that equipment including armor stays usable.
Man, that book gets worse every time I look at it.
I wasn't arguing Mooncursed was better. I was just stating things you didn't mention. If you weren't Lizardfolk I would say you should. You will already have a bite attack and a swim speed so the only things Shifting Rage will give you aside from the size changes would be Low-light vision, reach, grab and increased natural armor. All things considered, they are equal in my opinion.
Rage/ Shifting Rage
Attack: +4/ +1
CMB: +4/ +5
CMD: +4/ +3
AC: -2/ +2
Special: +4 Will saves, Improved Uncanny Dodge, +4 HP/HD/ *Bite, Grab, Low-Light Vision, Reach 10-15ft, *Swim 30ft, Huge creature(Hybrid or Crocodile)
*Lizardfolk has
AC, size and Grab are the biggest bonuses you get from Mooncursed as a Lizardfolk. The other stat differences obviously are better for basic Barbarian. It's up to you if you want to reduce the benefits from Rage to gain the abilities granted from Shifting Rage. Personally, I love the idea of being Huge and grappling people and "eating them" through bite damage so I would choose Mooncursed simply because I think I would have more fun that way, regardless of the loss of normal Rage bonuses. I also think it fits the idea of a Killer Croc mimic, he was easily Large. Alternatively, you could also play as a Lizardfolk Scion and just go regular Barbarian but I think Scions lose their Swim speed.
@Derklord Yeah, for an animal form... but if you look at Lycanthropes, which have a Hybrid form, it states that their armor doesn't meld in Hybrid form but it does for animal form. Mooncursed is based off of lycanthropy so I think it's intended to function the same way, allowing you to still have your armor bonus only for Hybrid form of Shifting Rage.
*All lycanthropes have three forms—a humanoid form, an animal form, and a hybrid form. Equipment does not meld with the new form between humanoid and hybrid form, but does between those forms and animal form.*
One thing the Mooncursed has over the Core Barb that I was thinking is that it can dip a level of Bloodrager with little overlap. You'll need to investing in Extra Rage if you want to do it more than a few times a day but it's worth noting.
I'd say it's still rage and can't be stacked.
@Tyrant Lizard King: Good point, the archetype does explicitly mention lycanthropes' hybrid form. I wish the actuall clasas feature would say that, but I guess we can file that under clear intend.
I'd say it's still rage and can't be stacked.
Just like Fighter's Weapon Training is different than Swashbuckler's Weapon Training, Rage, or in this case Shifting Rage, is different than Bloodrage. Both grant different bonuses and thus stack. What you allow in your games is on you, but as far as RAW is concerned I see nothing that implies they do not.
"If I am in a rage, or an Unchained rage, or a bloodrage, or some similar form of rage, can I stack up as many benefits as possible?
No. When you either activate or are affected by a new form of rage (such as a barbarian’s rage, a skald’s raging song, a bloodrager’s bloodrage, and the rage spell), you can choose whether to keep your current rage or to accept the new rage instead, much like a creature affected by multiple polymorph effects." emphasis mine
Shifting Rage is definitely a form of rage.
No Killer Croc build is complete without some way to throw big rocks.
I was working on a pretty similar idea with a lizardfolk brutal pugilist in mind. But would it work better to go half orc to qualify as a goblin to get feral gnasher?
I guess I'm stuck on what would work better, improved grapple with the bonus bites from raging grappler and animal fury or going right for the grab ability of feral gnasher(with the same bonus bites I guess). Improved grapple needing improved unarmed strike.
Would be tricky talking either of my DMs into the lizardfolk but they're really cool while half orcs can go straight to feral gnasher but aren't as cool thematically. Am I overthinking this?
How would a Half-Orc qualify for Feral Gnasher? They are Orc subtype, not Goblin. I would stay Lizardfolk though for thematics and their swim speed, +2 nat armor, claws and +2 STR & +2 CON.
How would a Half-Orc qualify for Feral Gnasher? They are Orc subtype, not Goblin. I would stay Lizardfolk though for thematics and their swim speed, +2 nat armor, claws and +2 STR & +2 CON.
Half orcs count as human and orc. Racial heritage feat lets you count as a goblin.
Its a bit much to get there but its still takes a while to get all the grappling feats as a lizardfolk barbarian. I do like the lizardfolk better but I wouldn't be ready until level 3ish.
Have you looked through any Prestige Classes? There's always some situational, RP-heavy, and/or gimmicky stuff in those. Might also want to look at the benefits from the Deific, Demonic, and Celestial Obedience feats (Diverse Obedience can get you Evangelist or Sentinel benefits for Deific Obedience without needing to multiclass, and the Evangelist PrC works well with any class). I'm not sure if anything would suit what you want, but it's worth looking through.
The Sin Eater archetype for Inquisitor gets some healing when you eat an enemy’s body - seems OK if not great, maybe it could be combined with Death Knell or the Enemy's Heart spell for some thematic fun.
The Bloody Fist and Feast of Blood rage powers allow you to rip out an enemy's internal organs and eat them. That sound pretty cool, but the mechanics don’t look very effective to me.