Goldenfrog's page

Silvermage,

DMing is a lot harder than it looks at least while you are learning. Like anything it takes time to not only master all the rules but feel comfortable with yourself and the game to sometimes just be wrong.

The DM will NEVER stop making mistakes. There is just far to many rules and little things to keep track of to remember it all 100% of the time. Then there are thousands of judgment calls to worry about,good lord who never makes errors of judgement?

All the while he is learning he has other people checking up on him. You didn't do that right! This rule isn't how it was meant to be! You charged to much for this!

It takes a world class nice guy to do all that and not get defensive as all get out!

We will not even get into players going to the boards and questioning the DM's calls with the forums! Good lord! Cut a guy a break already!

Look,I'm not saying your DM isn't wrong sometimes or even petty or touchy at times(I know I can be). The way your going about it though is going to make it worse. At least you stopped looking up rules during the game,now try stopping afterwards.

If you want to help him out and make your games better try this.

When you guys are hanging out not gaming and he is working on the game or just playing video games or whatever...read the rules. Anything you find that is different or just something you didn't know bring it up.

Bringing rules up when you don't have any sort of agenda and talking about them can really help your DM (and you) learn them better. Also if he wants to make rule changes there is no better time to find out than when you are not playing and you life isn't on the line!!

Think of it like this.

What if you guys meet with your friends one night a week at your house and everyone gets hungry.You take it on yourself to go to the store and buy all the food and drink.Come home and spend hours looking up recipes and cooking the meals and really hope everyone is happy.

Then your boyfriend starts eating and then starts looking up the recipes and pointing out that you messed some of them up.Maybe complains some and goes on facebook and asks others if they thought you had messed up and what he could do about it.

I think most issues along these lines are made up or mostly forum issues. For instance in my games no one has ever made a rogue or trap detecter type character without playing the rogue class.

Fighters are seen as very tough and fun characters while barbs dish out tons of damage but are hard to keep alive.

Heck,even the high level caster verse the high level everyone else issue isn't seen as a issue. The wizards and such are still seen as super easy to take down unless heavily protected.

I think a lot of issues assume a high level of jerkatude in the game,who else would make a character just to make another character useless?

If your Boss fights don't include at least one game of Eye spy,one game of Checkers and a staring match to see who will blink first between the DM and players then,you just have no clue how to build a boss encounter.

Back in the day you could just keep going till you died,3 minutes later you charge down the hall with a new character.

Friggin do that in Pathfinder and aye aye aye What a pain in the arse!

Orfamay Quest, I simply have to disagree with you here, Bilbo Baggins isn't even close to the iconic Rogue. He is a first level character thrown in over his head and is incompetent at everything. Think Aladdin, think The Grey Mouser, think Danny Ocean, think Sherlock Holmes, think Tasselhoff Burrfoot. Competent rogues are the smartest guy in the room with 3 backup plans and 7 side missions. If they are not that guy then they are unassuming like Bilbo of Tasslehoff, but that is a function of being child sized, not of being a rogue. The unassuming guy who has no magic and is bad at fighting is really not PC material in most games.

Did you just put Tasselhoff and Competent rogues are the smartest guy in the room with 3 backup plans and 7 side missions,right next to each other?

Please hand in your, Uncle Trapspringer's Adventurers Club, membership card.

Avh wrote:

Now, find for yourself who is supposed to have the most charisma out of the two.

The rogue.

No wonder you guys think they suck. You don't even remotely build them to their strengths. You try to force them to be what they're not.

Sorry,most of us didn't realize that the Rogues main role was to be a NPC until a short while ago.

If I could build a rogue with the same level of out of combat range that I have now but came within 30% of the damage our barbarian could dish out at will(or almost at all)I would be thrilled.

To be honest I don't care that other class's have so many rogue options.In my groups no one ever picks those,what I hate is that combat is a HUGE part of our games and I am left swinging a wet noodle and praying the monsters don't mind the wet part because if they do I'm gonna die real fast.

If I could badass kill 1 monster for every 3 or 4 our barbarian did I would be ok with that. After all look at all the other stuff I can do!

As it is now though,I'm not even playing the same game he is.I'm playing OD&D with D6 damage and he is playing 4E and smacking down gods!

Sure I can actually do better damage(still not good though) with options that remove a lot of my out of combat ability.......but WTH would I want to do that? Especially to still end up on the wet noodle end?

"PPPPPPPAAAAAAIIIIIIZZZZZOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!" Screamed like Kirk yelled Khan.

Paizo screwed the pooch on this one. I'm guessing none of the developers actually play rogues. How this happens while screams of "Rogue Sucks!" ring out all over the forums for years I really don't know.

Maybe the developer that plays rogue was trying out something new and different, the synthesis summoner!

I heard third or fourth hand that they are at least aware of the issue(aka not 100% blind and Deaf)and are planning some sort of fix based on talents or something but who the heck knows how that is gonna turn out.

Till then just house rule for fix's for the rogue.Yeah it sucks but thems the breaks.

Ban whatever you want,as long as you can find enough players to play.

I know one DM who runs a game with core book class's and races and banns even paizo's other pathfinder books and options.

Several players will not play in his games but he has more than enough that do.

Guys,I think some of you are not getting the point of the thread.I'm not trying to kill the PC's.That is as easy and saying"You have a heart attack and are dead".

I'm not trying to teach them a lesson or change them or get back at them for anything.

I'm trying to DM for them in the same style they want to play.Not to do anything more than have fun! I actually think it might be fun to run a game for a bit in that style!

Kinda like 4E's Fourthcore Iron Lich type of thing.

Normally I would say it was bad form to argue the game choice mid game.Since it was brought up by the DM though I think it speaks to greater issues.

The DM who is running Pathfinder (spending his time and effort as well as his money on the game)obviously is unhappy enough with running the game he at least attempted to self destruct the game.

This is something most DM's just wouldn't do unless he was at his wits end and not having fun at all. Think about it,he probably spent cash on a adventure and a considerable amount of time on game prep and mid game couldn't continue without trying to convince others to change games.

That my friends is one unhappy DM.

Regardless of what you and your friends decide to play that DM should NOT continue to run Pathfinder. It will only get worse if he does.

If you decide to stick with Pathfinder change DM's. If that isn't doable then im afraid you should change to whatever game he wants to run.

As a player I will play anything.I just love to play and most games I can create fun characters to enjoy.

As a DM I do not have fun running certain games. Some games focus on game styles that just run counter to what I like about role playing games. When that happens I just step down as DM and roll up a character!

If the group can't field a DM wanting to run that game,it simply doesn't get played.

Congratulations on being willing to take in a player with handicaps! Really,I have found many many role players (and people in general)who while not wanting to ostracize or discriminate in any way against the handicapped,unwilling to put in the extra effort it takes to deal with this issue. I award you a +1 permanent bonus

Each handicap is really a whole different story with it's own set of challenges but here are some things off the top of my head for someone with Cerebral Palsy.

1-Unless your game is one that uses miniatures,have the player sit away from the table or ditch the table all together.If you do use miniatures have the player sit far enough away so they don't smack the table. I have found that a well placed taller than average chair (or perhaps one with pillows ect added) lets them still see the battle-mat while sitting far enough away.

1A-If you use miniatures let someone else move them for the player. Actually I normally use this rule anyway and have one of the players move all the miniatures due to one too many battle-mat catastrophes at my table.

2-Have another player who is willing(and happy to do so)keep up with the handicapped players character sheet.Really it isn't much of a bother,in my group one of the players who is a math whiz and a small control freak (turn player disadvantages into advantages)keeps everyone's running hit point total.

2A-Have someone else roll the dice. In my game one of my players has MS and has issues rolling dice at times so we just roll for him.This player even made a special box with artwork on the outside for them to roll in that he keeps in front of himself so he can see the results.This player also reserves the right to change who rolls(so he can pick whoever is rolling hot that night!).This has added a lot of laughs for us as he often yells"your fired!" after bad rolls.

3- I don't have experience with someone with difficulty speaking but I do with players with strange(to us) accents that sometimes gets hard to understand(especially when excited). Just relax and don't worry about it and ask them to repeat it. I think as long as you don't let in annoy you then it will not annoy the player.After some time you might find you will start to understand them better.(a few months).

The number one thing is to just treat them like everyone else. They know they have a disability and hopefully are a lot more comfortable with it then you are. With issues that come up just talk about it.

This issue so badly fails the smell test it's stinking over in product discussion!

Really man think this through.What if YOU had shown up for that first game and everyone else was 1st level and you got to play a 9th Drow (whatever)without some of your stuff.Then YOU killed off that Cleric and her buddy because they didn't follow Loth. How do you think that would have gone down? Would it have been ok because...you were acting in character right? Wouldn't you have felt like a turd and maybe,oh I don't know WORKED with everyone so you could all have fun?

The fact that the other player ran with it and killed off your character and even had someone join in just goes to prove...you guys are NOT gaming to have a good time and role play.

Nope,these people have inside issues that you are oblivious to and you simply exist to contrast their awesomeness.

Dude get out of that crappy game now! Do not pass go,do not collect $200 because it's a frigging Trap!

Knights of Knavery

The whole deal with this player smells badly of unintelligent entitlement.He was trying to game the system without knowing the system! Then when he failed he threw a tantrum and threatened to quit the game.

Frankly fixing this issue for the player would teach him what? That its ok to meta-game without even knowing the game and just do whatever because if it goes bad the results can be fixed with a quick tantrum?

Is this the real message you want to send him and your other players?

Look,I know we play with friends and sometimes we just want to have a good time and kickback with our buds.I just don't understand how you can do that with a person who if things go against him,will resort to this type of thing.

It's not just RPG's. If you have a friend that loses at Risk and threatens to walk out if you don't give him back Madagascar,or demands that you do NOT go Fish for number fours because that is all he has left,would be the same thing.

Why are you playing with this person?

If you do decide to keep playing with him you simply HAVE to break him of this or never EVER picks the number four.

My players did the exact same type thing. They set up a magic item creation sweatshop and started to rake in the money. So after a bit of role playing I bombed the shop,killed off all there workers and cost them 6,000,000 gold (you don't pay the Thieves Guild protection and the Wizards Guild for license and taxes and THINGS happen). It ended up leading to the best adventure series of our game and was NOT FAIR....that's what adventures are!

Utter bull from the player,do not give in. Let him sit out a game or two even if he wants back in. You let yourself be bullied and its game over anyway.

Anyone who has a fit over such a trivial thing and walks out on the game,needs a time out. Even if the call was wrong(not saying it was)but even if it was,that is not the way to handle it.

Let him sit out a bit until he gets his attitude under control.

I'm going to play the Devils Advocate (what I really would suggest is stop playing with that DM but...that's less fun)and give you the following advice to make this game fun.

1-Ask tons and I mean TONS of questions about those Rape/Sacrifices and or Rape Orgy Sacrifices. Constantly need more in depth answers and revel in the details.(I find adding five cups of coffee before the game adds a little something special to the experience as well).

2-ANY combat should be described by you as a forgone action. I swat aside his pathetic attempt and ram my sword through his chest,killing him in one blow and flinging his lifeless corpse tot he ground. If you miss/the enemy lives or the DM says it was anything less than a movie 300 kill shot,Sneer at him roll your eyes and say"Pathetic" in such a way he knows you are talking about his DMing. If this happens more than once walk out,start watching TV,yawn a bunch or casually ask him if he ever read the rules.

3-Wait till its your turn then talk none stop for forty-five minutes.I mean it,its a LOT harder than you think. Throw in thoughts,background information,feelings of friends and family,Do NOT stop no matter what. Do not let one NPC get a word in edge wise and if you can speak in character,3rd person and even try and even try and get in at least once in character dream about the meaning of life.

4-Now IF you manage #3,yawn and tell the DM you are tired and leave.Stop right that second because you will never top that.Live on in all your glory. Extra points to go on facebook where the DM and players are friends and recap the game.Next time you get together recap again with them as if you had played all that with someone else.

5-At this point if you are still playing and either unable to carry out 1-4 or did so and just feel like you MUST get in more game then do the following. Show up to the game with a gamma world character and play him instead. Act like its the same character deny and argue he insists its not. Bring up last game where you used your Fireblast Eyeballs to roast his badguys and bring up the Gat you used to mow down his minions.
Even bring out the bright green miniature. If it's at all humanly possible please oh please talk to the other players before hand so they go along with it. If they each pull out bright green gamma world miniatures and agree with you.....You win at life and you will now carry the name and title of Spartamutant Champion and King of the all of the Future World!

First of all laugh it off.

Dude,its a game. He is your best friend. If he throws a fit about stupid stuff from time to time consider yourself lucky.

So you told him no to his hopes and dreams for his character. He should have just shrugged and moved on.

So he now wouldn't let you do the same thing. You should have shrugged and moved on.

Sounds like instead he was getting back at you. Who cares? If one character idea doesn't work out try another one!

All this serious discussion talk makes me laugh.

If it was my best friend who pulled this stuff I would have laughed,said "touche" and then hit him with another idea. I don't pin my hopes and dreams on character builds and if I did I wouldn't try and get around a ruling even if i don't agree with it. I would just come up with a new one.

Life is too short and Character lives are a TON shorter. Don't sweat the small stuff.

Well thanks for the thought guys but no. Putting out a intro box with the same rules 1-5th level will not help me at all. I have all the rules and all the books already and we know how to play the game. The game is just too dang rules heavy.

A lot of gamers love rules heavy games and frankly im cool with that. At the same time I wish a awsome company with deep pockets like Paizo would also put out a rules lite game for those of us that love those types of games more.

We do have some cool rules lite games out there. All the retro clones,Castles and Crusades,heck even Savage worlds ect..

But none of them really put out product like Paizo does or with that awsome style!

Maybe there is a reason for that. Maybe most gamers do love heavy rules and so lite rules just do not make the same kind of money. I don't have a clue.

I do know that when I was young (8-30) The more rules a game had and support in the form of extra books I could buy the better!

Now that im a old geezer in my 4th decade of playing rpg's I just can't seem to find the rules joy I had before.

Now I just want to role play and want the game to go fast and fun. If a fight lasts over 30 minutes I lose some of the fun and want to move on.

Same with creating npc's and adventures. I want more creating and less book keeping. I want to think up crazy Pirate dwarves with peg legs and a crazy Irish accent and then spend 5 min writing his stats down.

Maybe as gamers get older now we develop a rare form of ADD? Hahaha oh well.

Hears to chasing the perfect rpg dream!

Thanks for letting me ramble on.