GM making Resurrection cost more...


Advice

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Okay hi!

So we had our very first player death today. It was our GM's first too, we're all friends IRL and he hasn't got a lot of experience GM'ing. (We're all 19 and this is our second adventure.) He says I'm an anmoying rules lawyer but he has nearly TPK'd us before with faulty rules...

Well anyway, today a character died. We were in the haunted house from RotR in the 2nd book, (5th level characters at this point,) and she cut her own throat open with a sharp length of wood that she thought was a dagger. My paladin tried to stop her but she counter-attacked and surpassed my AC, then proceeded to kill herself. He said Resurrection cost 15,000GP, and that he was making it inexpensive because he felt bad. My paladin had made 4,000 off of selling scrolls of CLW, but everyone else had 6-700GP. We sold a bunch of stuff, plus the dead PC's ring of force shield, and finally we had enough. We had the newly erected church of Desna preform it for us.

So, being curious about the cost since he mentioned how kind he was being about price, I looked it up. Resurrection costs 10,000gp...What?

When I asked him about it after the game, he said the 5,000 was for the service. I reminded him that he had told us specifically before that the church don't try to make profit off of their services but ask for a donation...which is optional. his response was basically "Because I'm the DM, this is MY GAME, and I can run it however the hell I want. You're being annoying, you can't tell me I'm wrong because it's MY GAME. I'm not running the Core Rulebook, I'm running MY GAME! SOME GM's have the cost of a resurrection at 100,000 gold! You guys are LUCKY!"

Um....

He also happens to be my boyfriend of 4 years, and if he reads this I know he'll probably be mad at me. More mad than he is now.
But I just want to know the proper way to respond to this? My much more experienced friend who also plays PF said that it wasn't something he should have done, and had never played a game where resurrections costed more than 10,000. In PFS the gp cost is usually around 11,000 right? I just feel like it was unfair... We now have literally no money, which will eventually cripple us when we need better weapons and armor. Like, my AC is only 19 and I'm a now 6th level Paladin!

So am I being a terribly naggy girlfriend/player, who needs to shut up, or is he in the wrong? Like...honestly I don't know how he could ever say he's not running the CRB. Then WHY did I spend $50 on it? His response and blatant lying to my face about making the resurrection cheaper than it should have been just has me feeling really not good about the game right now... :/


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He is right that as the GM he's allowed to set rules and change them as he wants. This is a home game so it's not official. In this situation the rules are guidelines. As long as he's aware of the consequences and accounts for them you're fine. I have a GM whose given us the wealth of a 3~4 lv character by lv7. We finally got +1 weapons last level. Thing is though he knows this makes us weaker so he modifies the Difficulty of encounters for it. Also makes us try to figure out how to make due on less. So you're fine bringing it to his attention of what the "rules" say. But as the GM he is the one setting the rules. IF it's bad enough, just don't let him GM after this campaign. Just set it up that other people are in charge and then he's a player. Now I do say he overreacted based of of what you've said.


Did the character who was resurrected receive any negative levels? If not, then you got deal. If the character did receive a negative level then the price was high.

Sovereign Court

Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

He can do what he wants. My GM make resurrection a costly spell, the one casting it loses their something, usually internal organs (like Full Metal Alchemist in a way). It stops from cheapening death imo.


Chess Pwn wrote:
He is right that as the GM he's allowed to set rules and change them as he wants. This is a home game so it's not official. In this situation the rules are guidelines. As long as he's aware of the consequences and accounts for them you're fine. I have a GM whose given us the wealth of a 3~4 lv character by lv7. We finally got +1 weapons last level. Thing is though he knows this makes us weaker so he modifies the Difficulty of encounters for it. Also makes us try to figure out how to make due on less. So you're fine bringing it to his attention of what the "rules" say. But as the GM he is the one setting the rules. IF it's bad enough, just don't let him GM after this campaign. Just set it up that other people are in charge and then he's a player. Now I do say he overreacted based of of what you've said.

It's Rise of the Runelords, not a homebrew. I guess I wasn't very clear on that. But yeah, ultimately I think you're right. He has the right to do whatever he wants...we just have to deal with it for, forever. Especially me since he's my BF. He's the only person we know who can GM in the same schedule as everyone else, and also hates being a PC. We're already talking about doing Skulls an Shackles after RotR. //deep sigh.

That being said, he has taken precautions to try to ensure that we live. He has taken really stupidly powerful rooms out of several dungeons, such as the basement of Thistletop. He doesn't WANT us to die, but...sometimes he seems to think of it as a "PC's vs GM" kinda thing, except he is allowed to hack the console and enable god mode.

@Lake, yes she took one negative level.


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I'll put in as well that he can do as he wants. However, it isn't very courteous or fun to do such house rules without any kind of warning. See if he might be willing to put together a list of house rules he will be using in the game... it'll greatly reduce "nagging" and unpleasant surprises.

Also, why couldn't the character have been brought back with raise dead? If he still wanted to have a service fee you could still save some money.

You'll probably hear this a bit, but open and polite communication is one of the best ways to have fun in a game!


As Dungeon Master, I don't make it easy to acquire the diamond component for casting the spell. Resurrection would by difficult to come by in my game.


We use permadeath in my group. You die, you do not pass Go and do not collect 200 dollars. But this was ran by the group before we ever started and we even had a group vote. A GM can do what he wants as it is his game but most good GMs do address the group beforehand and lay out the houserules.


Yeah, some people's GM style clashes with your desired play style. I bet he doesn't like being a PC cause he's not the "GOD" of everything.


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While a GM plays his own rules, he's God. I think that you (and your party) should politely talk with your GameMaster about his rules. Ask him why does a such a popular spell costs too much (and pretend more explanation beyond: "This is my choice!"). Maybe he has other strange rules that you are unaware of. Maybe he has some player-friendly rules. And remember the most important rule of the game: if you are not getting fun, then you are not playing well.
And yes, he is wrong, because;
1) This was a surprise. You would be angry if someone told you that something you like costs a lot more than expected.
2) (as you have reported it) He was impolite. A GM has to bring fun to the player, not unkindness.

Dark Archive

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While the GM is allowed to change any rules he likes, it's considered good gaming ettiquete to announce such house-rules ahead of time, since changing the rules in middle of the game conflicts with what the players are expecting, and as you have learned that tends to make the players upset.

That being said, from what you've shared, it sounds like the GM is power-tripping on his arbitrary control of the game, and that's a pretty jerk-face things to do to your friends when you're hanging out to have fun. Though in his defense, he is a 19 year old boy, so expecting him to handle anythign with grace or maturity might be asking too much(I shudder to recall what I was like at that age).

Of course, with only hearing one side of the story I might be way off base here.


Note: He also allowed Ameiko and the Sheriff (forgot his name) to give us a total of 2,500gp, but without that we never would have been able to afford it at 15,000gp.


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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Would the player be penalyzed for making a new character? If not, just go with that instead. There are certainly gms out there that dont like how easy resurrection/raise dead is. Thats all well and good, so long as the dead character can be replaced by a new one.

On a more personal note, you should be able to bring concerns to the gm regardless of your personal relationship, just make sure its in a 'I'd like to know how things are in your game' way more then a 'but the rule book says different kind of way'. In this case I'd say something like 'it seems like your charging extra here for that ressurction spell, is there some in game reason for it? Or do you simply want to make it less available? I'd like to know because it would affect our future attempts at such activity."

In the end, you cant 'beat' the gm. He's not obligate to follow the rules in the book any more then he wants to. So finding out what his reasoning is, and going with that is better then trying to point it out as if its an error.

Obviously its hard to get alot of impressions from just a description in the forum, but I certainly hope you can talk rationally with your boyfriend and at least create an understanding between you two on how to make sure the game is fun for everyone. Express your concerns about the wealth level of the party, see what he has in mind. Maybe as mentioned he is planning for a weaker party, maybe he wants a deadlier more difficult game. There are groups where one or more character dies every session and everyone has fun with it. If thats what he is going for, low wealth and difficult ressurection is a way to go about it. Understanding what he is going for will be very valuable in having fun within the game he is running.


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Lakesidefantasy wrote:
Did the character who was resurrected receive any negative levels? If not, then you got deal. If the character did receive a negative level then the price was high.

Well no.

Have resurrection casted and the permanent level removed costs 12190 gp, counting diamond dust for both spells (10000 and 1000 respectively) and the service paid (15*7*10 and 7*4*10). This isn't neither the best price you can find.


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As a player, you have a right to investigate what the rules are, and explain them to the GM if you think (or know) that he is doing them incorrectly in accordance to the book. You also have the right to speak to your GM and voice your concerns and "complaints" (for lack of a better word) that ruin your gaming experience, and if he denies or simply becomes ignorant with such a request, the player then has a right to leave the group and find another that suits their playstyle (though this is usually a last resort).

Simultaneously, the GM has a right to deviate from the rules, as long as he makes the players aware and clear as to what those changes are; if something comes up in the game and the rules are unclear or inconsistent as to how the situation is handled, the GM has the right to make a ruling, and run with it from there.

That being said, this is a problematic, and constantly debated topic; many people feel that the value of Resurrection, Raise Dead, etc. is too cheap when they come online, so they enhance the cost of cash, or include some other sort of price (usually a price in blood, power, etc.) The GM is correct on this regard, and if he wishes to up the ante, per se, then that's his call; as you said, this is the first PC death of the campaign, so it's not unreasonable for him to assert a ruling, since this is the first.

However, it's also something that should've been brought up, since character infidelity is an important subject of the game, so it is both his fault and not yours, while at the same time your fault and not his. It becomes quite a sticky situation, and not one that can be remedied simply by talking, since both parties involved have merit to their claims.

My suggestion? Roll with it. PC deaths seem quite uncommon at your table, as this is the first; additionally, it might not be worthwhile to scour up the funds for a resurrection, especially considering a PC may not want to come back. I personally don't mind a PC's death as much, especially when I make a PC up for jokes. Lastly, it also gives incentive and forces you to make due with a situation to try and come out as unscathed as possible.

I'm curious as to why you didn't opt for the fairly cheaper Raise Dead spell, since that would run you about 7500 gold, plus another 2200 in Restoration spells, saving your group that 'taxed on' 5000.


He can do what he wants, but he should expect consequences. Leave the game, and possibly leave him if he behaves this poorly on a consistent basis.


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silvermage wrote:


It's Rise of the Runelords, not a homebrew. I guess I wasn't very clear on that.

True, but it's still a "home game". The only time you have to follow the rules by the book is in an organized play environment like Pathfinder Society. But even in Pathfinder Society there are deviations from the rules.

I would suggest accepting the ruling of the Dungeon Master and try not to focus on the rules. Remember, running a game is a tough job, thankless at times, and very few people are really good at it.

If he really is on a power trip then open communication is your best friend. If he really is doing a horrible job, then the game will eventually unravel and the situation will take care of itself. Just make sure someone is there to take over when it happens


Victor Zajic wrote:


That being said, from what you've shared, it sounds like the GM is power-tripping on his arbitrary control of the game, and that's a pretty jerk-face things to do to your friends when you're hanging out to have fun. Though in his defense, he is a 19 year old boy, so expecting him to handle anythign with grace or maturity might be asking too much(I shudder to recall what I was like at that age).

Of course, with only hearing one side of the story I might be way off base here.

Hehe... Yeah he has Teenage Boy syndrome. But he usually is nice, and also is an Eaglescout, so he's a pretty responsible and generally Good-aligned guy who does his best and loves his mother.

He was also stressed out cuz he had to get ready for work right after the game, and annoyed because I am pretty much always double-checking the rules after that near TPK where he had "protection from good" make the caster completely damage resistant against any good character. Ahem. But we're all pretty noobish at this so can it really hurt to double check? Aaa...Although the whole table groans when I say "let me check the rules on that." So I have begun checking rules after the game unless it's dire (like we are about to die because we can't do damage and are being murdered horribly) or requested.

Kolokotroni wrote:

Would the player be penalyzed for making a new character? If not, just go with that instead. There are certainly gms out there that dont like how easy resurrection/raise dead is. Thats all well and good, so long as the dead character can be replaced by a new one.

On a more personal note, you should be able to bring concerns to the gm regardless of your personal relationship, just make sure its in a 'I'd like to know how things are in your game' way more then a 'but the rule book says different kind of way'. In this case I'd say something like 'it seems like your charging extra here for that ressurction spell, is there some in game reason for it? Or do you simply want to make it less available? I'd like to know because it would affect our future attempts at such activity."

In the end, you cant 'beat' the gm. He's not obligate to follow the rules in the book any more then he wants to. So finding out what his reasoning is, and going with that is better then trying to point it out as if its an error.

Obviously its hard to get alot of impressions from just a description in the forum, but I certainly hope you can talk rationally with your boyfriend and at least create an understanding between you two on how to make sure the game is fun for everyone. Express your concerns about the wealth level of the party, see what he has in mind. Maybe as mentioned he is planning for a weaker party, maybe he wants a deadlier more difficult game. There are groups where one or more character dies every session and everyone has fun with it. If thats what he is going for, low wealth and difficult ressurection is a way to go about it. Understanding what he is going for will be very valuable in having fun within the game he is running.

The only thing about this particular character, she was a cute child Tiefling and my Aasimar paladin thought of her as an adopted child, and the catfolk Ranger and the Monk also adored her. Realistically, they would work to do what they could to bring her back. The player also really loves her character. Me? I don't like Aasimars or paladins, but he specially requested I make one for the flavor, so I did. I've grown to like her but I can't get over the Mary-Sue-ness. If my paladin died, it would be a noble and heroic death and I'd roll a new character and be done with it. (lol: Sandpoint, the Aasimar-killing Town. Aasimars, beware!)


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1 - Value the friendship/relationship more than the game

2 - It sounds like raise dead would have done the job as well as resurrection, thus cheaper.

3 - It also sounds like your GM has let you earn extra money (you mentioned selling scrolls of cure light - normally those are sold at the same price as you make them), so may have a bit of extra cash on hand.

4 - You're right to question, and perhaps politely suggest that anything decided that is different than normal rules be written down for clarity. Given your collective inexperience, the "normal" suggestion of having a list of house rules made ahead of time isn't going to work exactly.

5 - Enjoy the rest of Rise of the Runelords! It's great!


Terronus wrote:

I'll put in as well that he can do as he wants. However, it isn't very courteous or fun to do such house rules without any kind of warning. See if he might be willing to put together a list of house rules he will be using in the game... it'll greatly reduce "nagging" and unpleasant surprises.

Also, why couldn't the character have been brought back with raise dead? If he still wanted to have a service fee you could still save some money.

You'll probably hear this a bit, but open and polite communication is one of the best ways to have fun in a game!

He said that Raise Dead would be 10,000 and 2 permanent negative levels that we can't buy back. So the 5,000 extra was more or less so that the player would 't be so far behind everyone else..although she had to give up her ring (the only AC item she had as a sorcerer) to help pay for the extra money.

Darksol the Painbringer wrote:

As a player, you have a right to investigate what the rules are, and explain them to the GM if you think (or know) that he is doing them incorrectly in accordance to the book. You also have the right to speak to your GM and voice your concerns and "complaints" (for lack of a better word) that ruin your gaming experience, and if he denies or simply becomes ignorant with such a request, the player then has a right to leave the group and find another that suits their playstyle (though this is usually a last resort).

Simultaneously, the GM has a right to deviate from the rules, as long as he makes the players aware and clear as to what those changes are; if something comes up in the game and the rules are unclear or inconsistent as to how the situation is handled, the GM has the right to make a ruling, and run with it from there.

That being said, this is a problematic, and constantly debated topic; many people feel that the value of Resurrection, Raise Dead, etc. is too cheap when they come online, so they enhance the cost of cash, or include some other sort of price (usually a price in blood, power, etc.) The GM is correct on this regard, and if he wishes to up the ante, per se, then that's his call; as you said, this is the first PC death of the campaign, so it's not unreasonable for him to assert a ruling, since this is the first.

However, it's also something that should've been brought up, since character infidelity is an important subject of the game, so it is both his fault and not yours, while at the same time your fault and not his. It becomes quite a sticky situation, and not one that can be remedied simply by talking, since both parties involved have merit to their claims.

My suggestion? Roll with it. PC deaths seem quite uncommon at your table, as this is the first; additionally, it might not be worthwhile to scour up the funds for a resurrection, especially considering a PC may not want to come back. I personally don't mind a PC's death as much, especially when I make a PC up for jokes....

It's not just the first PC death of the campaign...it's our first PC death EVER. We have never played a game where a character died. I currently am also playing Jade Regent with him and another friend, and we finished Dragon's Demand with this group earlier this year. So we never have had the issue of resurrection spells.

@Majuba: Yea, of course! He is my best friend, after all, and this game is something we started playing together after MtG started getting boring and expensive. It IS just a game, but we do take it seriously, and sometimes it leads to quarrelling. I know he doesn't purposely try to dick our PC's over but alas, it happens. Less frequently as he has gained more experience, yes, but when it does happen.... Sigh! But again, relationship is more valuable than a game. :) I personally think he needs more experience as a PC himself to understand how I feel about it. I know GMing is difficult, I tried it one and ugh....NEVER AGAIN! Although he WAS one f my PC's and kept purposely doing things to be difficult...like not caring about the plotline and running in the opposite direction of where he was supposed to go........ Lol.


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silvermage wrote:
...and annoyed because I am pretty much always double-checking the rules after that near TPK where he had "protection from good" make the caster completely damage resistant against any good character.

Checking the rules mid-game is equally adversarial. Unless your rules discussion can last under five seconds, it really does not belong mid-session. Save it for a post game talk. GMs make mistakes, but constantly questing your GM will very quickly lead to a more intense GM vs PC game and, likely, your GM rage-quitting.

Also, pretty sure prot-good doesn't work that way.

EDIT - You can buy back the negative levels, but a character can only benefit from the Restoration spell once per week. He may have wanted to avoid the whole negative level business by forcing a Resurrection on your party.


ElMustacho wrote:
Lakesidefantasy wrote:
Did the character who was resurrected receive any negative levels? If not, then you got deal. If the character did receive a negative level then the price was high.

Well no.

Have resurrection casted and the permanent level removed costs 12190 gp, counting diamond dust for both spells (10000 and 1000 respectively) and the service paid (15*7*10 and 7*4*10). This isn't neither the best price you can find.

Since they are new players unfamiliar with the rules I was asking because the Dungeon Master in question may have just allowed the character to be resurrected with no negative effects--ala true resurrection. For 15,000 gold that's a deal.

Of course, assuming the character's body was intact and was only dead for a few days, raise dead would have sufficed and resorting to any resurrection spell was overkill. But, being inexperienced players, they may not have known this.


Lakesidefantasy wrote:
ElMustacho wrote:
Lakesidefantasy wrote:
Did the character who was resurrected receive any negative levels? If not, then you got deal. If the character did receive a negative level then the price was high.

Well no.

Have resurrection casted and the permanent level removed costs 12190 gp, counting diamond dust for both spells (10000 and 1000 respectively) and the service paid (15*7*10 and 7*4*10). This isn't neither the best price you can find.

Since they are new players unfamiliar with the rules I was asking because the Dungeon Master in question may have just allowed the character to be resurrected with no negative effects--ala true resurrection. For 15,000 gold that's a deal.

Of course, assuming the character's body was intact and was only dead for a few days, raise dead would have sufficed and resorting to any resurrection spell was overkill. But, being inexperienced players, they may not have known this.

We found a Wand of Gentle Repose a while ago from some necromancer in a basement, and used it to keep the body fresh. But yeah, he basically said "No re-gaining or buying back the permanent level loss." Which is why we resorted to resurrection, so she wouldn't be like level 3 and the rest of us at Lvl 6...He ALSO said we only had until the body was rotten to resurrect her...but the rules say 10 years. I feel like he just kinda BS'd the ruling on this.


So the spell was only 12,500 instead of 11,000. A difference but less so then the original.


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silvermage wrote:
But yeah, he basically said "No re-gaining or buying back the permanent level loss."

That's probably his way of saying "I don't want death to be a trivial matter." Either play smarter, don't get attached to your characters, or learn to live with a respectable penalty.


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If the GM says the rule is X then the rule is X however I.from what you said I dont think he likes to admit being wrong. An increase in price is different from a decrease.
In the spirit of fairness if he is not making mistakes which I doubt, he should give everyone a list of the house rules up front .


downerbeautiful wrote:


That's probably his way of saying "I don't want death to be a trivial matter." Either play smarter, don't get attached to your characters, or learn to live with a respectable penalty.

We get attached because they're only the second characters we have made, and we have spent hours roleplaying their interactions. We all were nearly crying when she died. It was so dishonorable, too, as she got taken over by a haunted room and slit her own throat right in front if her adopted mother who tried her best to stop her...it wasn't really about playing dumb, as we had no control over it, and it was pretty damn devastating. But props to the campaign, it hit us with the feels train pretty hard! Lol!

Edit:

wraithstrike wrote:

If the GM says the rule is X then the rule is X however I.from what you said I dont think he likes to admit being wrong. An increase in price is different from a decrease.

In the spirit of fairness if he is not making mistakes which I doubt, he should give everyone a list of the house rules up front .

Exactly...when I point out a mistake even as friendly as I can, he gets defensive. I don't think he even thought that there would be PC deaths, though... We have never discussed the cost of bringing back the dead.


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downerbeautiful wrote:
silvermage wrote:
But yeah, he basically said "No re-gaining or buying back the permanent level loss."
That's probably his way of saying "I don't want death to be a trivial matter." Either play smarter, don't get attached to your characters, or learn to live with a respectable penalty.

Yeah, the picture is becoming clearer now.

Silvermage, your Dungeon Master doesn't want your characters to die, but he wants death mean something. I feel the same way. All of you as a gaming group should have a discussion about this. Or, the players should just accept that that is the way it is going to be and try to have fun. I would suggest keeping distance between you and your characters.

However, I admit, this can create issues that perhaps your inexperienced Dungeon Master is not foreseeing. Then again maybe he has a plan.

Life is a learning experience.


Lakesidefantasy wrote:
downerbeautiful wrote:
silvermage wrote:
But yeah, he basically said "No re-gaining or buying back the permanent level loss."
That's probably his way of saying "I don't want death to be a trivial matter." Either play smarter, don't get attached to your characters, or learn to live with a respectable penalty.

Yeah, the picture is becoming clearer now.

Silvermage, your Dungeon Master doesn't want your characters to die, but he wants death mean something. I feel the same way. All of you as a gaming group should have a discussion about this. Or, the players should just accept that that is the way it is going to be and try to have fun. I would suggest keeping distance between you and your characters.

However, I admit, this can create issues that perhaps your inexperienced Dungeon Master is not foreseeing. Then again maybe he has a plan.

Life is a learning experience.

I definitely agree that he doesn't want us to die but doesn't want us to shrug off death. And I agree with that! But saying "take Pc deaths seriously," and saying "don't get attached to your character," AND expecting us to roleplay well...is pretty contradictory. As it is, the only reason we have gotten attached is because we have 3-5 hour sessions once a week to twice a month, so we have been playing these PCs for months now. And outside the game, we have been discussing their relationships with each other, building their history, drawing them (we are all decent artists who spend time drawing our characters laughing together) and painting our minis. It's just hard not to get attached ahaha...


silvermage wrote:


I definitely agree that he doesn't want us to die but doesn't want us to shrug off death. And I agree with that! But saying "take Pc deaths seriously," and saying "don't get attached to your character," AND expecting us to roleplay well...is pretty contradictory. As it is, the only reason we have gotten attached is because we have 3-5 hour sessions once a week to twice a month, so we have been playing these PCs for months now. And outside the game, we have been discussing their relationships with each other, building their history, drawing them (we are all decent artists who spend time drawing our characters laughing together) and painting our minis. It's just hard not to get attached ahaha...

You are right Silvermage.

You should probably discuss this with your Dungeon Master.


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So the rules for spellcasting services are here, though you might find some DMs disagree with freely buying spells like that. The limits are they always so no to going anywhere else, you pay if they break, and if it's more than 3000 it's not generally available. Since a 9th level spell with no other costs is only 1530, not sure how you get more than 3k without material components.

Anyway, as to your actual spell problems. Raise dead is 5k, requires the whole body, works on days/level dead, and gives you 2 negative levels. Gentle Repose does extend this time limit. Resurrection is 10k, only requires part of the body, works on 10 years/level, and gives 1 negative level. True Resurrection is 25k and gives no negative levels. At that point the time since death it works on is irrelevant. And this looks like a great bargain, True Resurrection for cheap. It's not, partly because Restoration removes permanent negative levels, and partly since the real benefit of True Resurrection is "bring back to life someone who's body was stolen/destroyed/vaporized". If you have a complete body then Raise Dead is by far the cheapest option, though because of the 1/week limit on healing negative levels in Restoration you'll need a week and a day for full recovery. Resurrection is still cheaper if you can get a Restoration immediately after.

And after reading your updates, wow, you got screwed. Double price on raise dead and 5 times the price on a restoration? Is he not aware Restoration exists and what it does? Also, negative levels are less painful in Pathfinder, and curable. A negative level gives you a -1 penalty to most rolls, 5 less max and current HP, and you count as a lower level for Level Dependent effects. Spellcasters still keep their spells, just lose Caster Level.

What you need to do is point blank ask your DM what other house rules he has. If he denies it, point out that he's not following the rules as written in the book for this. Make clear there's nothing wrong with house rules, but if the players aren't informed of them ahead of time they can't make an informed decision and these kinds of surprise changes negatively impact their play experience.


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Silvermage wrote:
He also happens to be my boyfriend of 4 years

Ohhhhh, no. Nononononononononono. No. Not touching this one with an eleven-foot pole.


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Lakesidefantasy wrote:
As Dungeon Master, I don't make it easy to acquire the diamond component for casting the spell. Resurrection would by difficult to come by in my game.

The Law of Supply and Demand would simply make even tiny amounts of diamond dust do quite nicely.


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*passes blahpers a Rod of Lordly might and says 'push button #3'*

Better?


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Triphoppenskip wrote:

We use permadeath in my group. You die, you do not pass Go and do not collect 200 dollars. But this was ran by the group before we ever started and we even had a group vote. A GM can do what he wants as it is his game but most good GMs do address the group beforehand and lay out the houserules.

For all those complaining Raise dead is too easy:Oh yeah.

Players: “Hey Bob, we have to go on a quest for about 4 nites of gaming in order to raise you, so I guess you can just stay home or you can play my Mount.”

Bob: “yeah, sounds like real fun. Look, instead- here’s Knuckles the 87th , go ahead and loot Knuckles the 86th body. He's got some cool stuff."

The whole idea of “death should mean something” becomes meaningless when we all realize that D&D is a Game, Games should be Fun, and in order to have Fun you have to Play. Thereby, when a Player’s PC dies either you Raise him or he brings in another. Raising is preferable story-wise, and costs resources. Bringing in another costs continuity and actually increases party wealth. Not to mention, instead of an organic played-from-1st-PC we have a PC generated at that level, which can lead to some odd min/maxing.

The third alternative is “Sorry Bob, Knuckles is dead. You’re out of the campaign, we’ll let you know when the next one is starting, should be in about a year or so.’ Really?


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A raise dead with negative level removal is around 8k (too lazy to look up exact number). I didn't read anything saying she's need a resurrection(you seemed to have the body still), so a raise dead should do the trick.

He is absolutely in his right to raise the cost of raise dead (and other services) if he so desires. I often run home games with no(I ran a Dark Sun campaign, its built into the setting that theres no raise dead, or odd options (such as brain transfers or reincarnation type effects) to raise dead. That said I rule that up front, and keep my home rules pretty well written. If I make a new one because of an in game decision, I add it AFTER whatever prompted it (so the NEXT time someone dies x happens).

That being said this is an AP. The problem with paying for death in an AP(or any game really, but AP's more so) is the inevitable "death spiral" that will likely ensue. The death spiral is an insurance term for when an insurance company takes on too many sick people, and as they raise their rates the healthy people drop, but the sick people must stay on. In PF terms it means the party keeps getting weaker and weaker until they have no reasonable chance to succeed at said mission, as a party's competence is directly tied into their wealth. In an AP your sadly pretty much always better coming in with a new character, they are light enough in loot to begin with.

I would explain the death spiral to him and tell him the long term affects such decisions have on games. I have actually seen a party that died so much (in ROTRL nonetheless) that literally had no chance of proceeding further in the campaign because of the death spiral. Most GM's don't want their games to end that way, so maybe he'll run stuff differently, maybe not!


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Op, my suggestion is that you and your bf should experience gaming with other groups where he is not in charge. Neither should you run the game.

Sovereign Court

Majuba wrote:

1 - Value the friendship/relationship more than the game

2 - It sounds like raise dead would have done the job as well as resurrection, thus cheaper.

3 - It also sounds like your GM has let you earn extra money (you mentioned selling scrolls of cure light - normally those are sold at the same price as you make them), so may have a bit of extra cash on hand.

4 - You're right to question, and perhaps politely suggest that anything decided that is different than normal rules be written down for clarity. Given your collective inexperience, the "normal" suggestion of having a list of house rules made ahead of time isn't going to work exactly.

5 - Enjoy the rest of Rise of the Runelords! It's great!

Also the fact that Ameiko and the Sheriff also chipped in 2500.

So really you didn't get as robbed as you think you did. Sounds like your PC was too rich by about 3k gp as compared to the rest of the group. So over 5k gp were excess money for the party.


I have a problem with your DM saying I'm giving you a deal for a res when you turn around and see you over paid. Now i admit this is the first time it has some come so he can say its how i roll. But that still doesn't make it fair on the players. Plus i have to ask does that char have the nagitive level still or did you get ride of that with the cost of the 15k?

Now I'm a DM of a different breed. I work hard to kill my players. I feel if they aint dyeing then I'm doing something wrong. Yeah I'm pretty harsh but I'm alot of fun to play with. I make sure i always and i mean ALWAYS give my players a way to win the battle. I have only had a TKP once and that was my fault because i read a spell wrong. So i was kind to them and brought them all back to life. But i always warn anyone and everyone who starts any of my canpains that this is how i play and i like to kill. I have never had an unhappy player and noone has ever walked away or said they wont play with me.

So if your unhappy with your DM i would be happy to dm for you but i warn you death is a certainty. Tho i have to agree with others you should talk to him about getting a list of other house rules he has so no one is surprised of caught off guard ever again. And ask him to play come up with a reason why res is so much on his world. Yes its his world but it doesn't hurt to have a reason behind it. It will go along way to helping every one understand and get along. Just my 2 cents.


silvermage wrote:

Okay hi!

So we had our very first player death today. It was our GM's first too, we're all friends IRL and he hasn't got a lot of experience GM'ing. (We're all 19 and this is our second adventure.) He says I'm an anmoying rules lawyer but he has nearly TPK'd us before with faulty rules...

Well anyway, today a character died. We were in the haunted house from RotR in the 2nd book, (5th level characters at this point,) and she cut her own throat open with a sharp length of wood that she thought was a dagger. My paladin tried to stop her but she counter-attacked and surpassed my AC, then proceeded to kill herself. He said Resurrection cost 15,000GP, and that he was making it inexpensive because he felt bad. My paladin had made 4,000 off of selling scrolls of CLW, but everyone else had 6-700GP. We sold a bunch of stuff, plus the dead PC's ring of force shield, and finally we had enough. We had the newly erected church of Desna preform it for us.

So, being curious about the cost since he mentioned how kind he was being about price, I looked it up. Resurrection costs 10,000gp...What?

When I asked him about it after the game, he said the 5,000 was for the service. I reminded him that he had told us specifically before that the church don't try to make profit off of their services but ask for a donation...which is optional. his response was basically "Because I'm the DM, this is MY GAME, and I can run it however the hell I want. You're being annoying, you can't tell me I'm wrong because it's MY GAME. I'm not running the Core Rulebook, I'm running MY GAME! SOME GM's have the cost of a resurrection at 100,000 gold! You guys are LUCKY!"

Um....

Hello!

Sounds like your GM either secretly:
1. Wants you all to take death more seiously.
2. Deosnt like the character that died and is making it harder for that character to come back on purpose.
3. Thinks the party is over-geared and wants to hit you in your pocket-books.

Or a combination of the above.

However, there are other ways to bring back the dead beyond the ressurection spell. Reincarnate is a good one, only 1k to cast and then another 1k to remove the "permenent" negative levels.

On a side note, the biggest problem when a GM deosnt know the rules well is that players cant make know what to expect when they make a character. For example, you make a human dex-based character one day but your GM decides you no human can have a dex higher then 15 because elves are the graceful race not humans. I could go on but I think you get the picture.

My advice: Just leave it be. It's a game afterall; if no one is having fun because the GM is being a jerk then find a new GM.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Companion, Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I would posit that making a game rule alteration for a RPG group doesn't make someone more or less likely to have a girlfriend.


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Rathendar wrote:
I would posit that making a game rule alteration for a RPG group doesn't make someone more or less likely to have a girlfriend.

Oh man, if it did, imagine all the broken up couples that should be!


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Silvermage,

DMing is a lot harder than it looks at least while you are learning. Like anything it takes time to not only master all the rules but feel comfortable with yourself and the game to sometimes just be wrong.

The DM will NEVER stop making mistakes. There is just far to many rules and little things to keep track of to remember it all 100% of the time. Then there are thousands of judgment calls to worry about,good lord who never makes errors of judgement?

All the while he is learning he has other people checking up on him. You didn't do that right! This rule isn't how it was meant to be! You charged to much for this!

It takes a world class nice guy to do all that and not get defensive as all get out!

We will not even get into players going to the boards and questioning the DM's calls with the forums! Good lord! Cut a guy a break already!

Look,I'm not saying your DM isn't wrong sometimes or even petty or touchy at times(I know I can be). The way your going about it though is going to make it worse. At least you stopped looking up rules during the game,now try stopping afterwards.

If you want to help him out and make your games better try this.

When you guys are hanging out not gaming and he is working on the game or just playing video games or whatever...read the rules. Anything you find that is different or just something you didn't know bring it up.

Bringing rules up when you don't have any sort of agenda and talking about them can really help your DM (and you) learn them better. Also if he wants to make rule changes there is no better time to find out than when you are not playing and you life isn't on the line!!

Think of it like this.

What if you guys meet with your friends one night a week at your house and everyone gets hungry.You take it on yourself to go to the store and buy all the food and drink.Come home and spend hours looking up recipes and cooking the meals and really hope everyone is happy.

Then your boyfriend starts eating and then starts looking up the recipes and pointing out that you messed some of them up.Maybe complains some and goes on facebook and asks others if they thought you had messed up and what he could do about it.


darkwarriorkarg wrote:
Op, my suggestion is that you and your bf should experience gaming with other groups where he is not in charge. Neither should you run the game.

This is pretty sound advice. I've seen real life relationships have trouble because of in game actions, and the idea of the "DM's girlfriend" is so ingrained it's practically a trope. The potential for conflict is even greater if you're the "by the book" type, and he's the "I am the law" type.

He also needs to be aware that his rulings will have effects on how players interact with his game world. If death is something that is difficult to deal with, it encourages orphan loner characters that make no lasting connections to other beings, and have little if any personal growth. If a lucky axe swing by an enemy (or an unlucky save from the character) can end a character's story arc without a way to get them back, even having a story arc can seem like a waste of effort.


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Goldenfrog wrote:


Think of it like this.

What if you guys meet with your friends one night a week at your house and everyone gets hungry.You take it on yourself to go to the store and buy all the food and drink.Come home and spend hours looking up recipes and cooking the meals and really hope everyone is happy.

Then your boyfriend starts eating and then starts looking up the recipes and pointing out that you messed some of them up.Maybe complains some and goes on facebook and asks others if they thought you had messed up and what he could do about it.

This is actually a good analogy. Except the ending is absolute rubbish. In the example we were given, they're not just randomly complaining about the DM out of nowhere. They bit into a bay leaf that wasn't taken out of the soup and stuck in their teeth. They hit a bit of eggshell in the quiche that fell in. Something negatively impacted their play/eating experience and they came to ask others if this is an issue.

In a better cooking example, I know someone who hates tomatoes, someone who hates cilantro, and someone who hates vinegar. If I told them ahead of time the food I was making contained that, they'd be fine with it and know to avoid it (or maybe even try it). If they only find out after they start eating that that's what they're getting, they're going to be pissed (and rightly so). That's what houserules are supposed to be to the rules, a chef playing with the recipe. But if I go to Alice's for a hamburger and only find out after I get there it's tofu with lettuce for the bun, I'm going to complain because I was expecting beef and bread.


Goldenfrog wrote:

Silvermage,

DMing is a lot harder than it looks at least while you are learning. Like anything it takes time to not only master all the rules but feel comfortable with yourself and the game to sometimes just be wrong.

The DM will NEVER stop making mistakes. There is just far to many rules and little things to keep track of to remember it all 100% of the time. Then there are thousands of judgment calls to worry about,good lord who never makes errors of judgement?

All the while he is learning he has other people checking up on him. You didn't do that right! This rule isn't how it was meant to be! You charged to much for this!

It takes a world class nice guy to do all that and not get defensive as all get out!

We will not even get into players going to the boards and questioning the DM's calls with the forums! Good lord! Cut a guy a break already!

Look,I'm not saying your DM isn't wrong sometimes or even petty or touchy at times(I know I can be). The way your going about it though is going to make it worse. At least you stopped looking up rules during the game,now try stopping afterwards.

If you want to help him out and make your games better try this.

When you guys are hanging out not gaming and he is working on the game or just playing video games or whatever...read the rules. Anything you find that is different or just something you didn't know bring it up.

Bringing rules up when you don't have any sort of agenda and talking about them can really help your DM (and you) learn them better. Also if he wants to make rule changes there is no better time to find out than when you are not playing and you life isn't on the line!!

Think of it like this.

What if you guys meet with your friends one night a week at your house and everyone gets hungry.You take it on yourself to go to the store and buy all the food and drink.Come home and spend hours looking up recipes and cooking the meals and really hope everyone is happy.

Then your boyfriend starts eating and then starts...

Hey hey, I'm the one helping him set things up and make maps. Also this is the first time I've asked anything on these forums- I usually just ask a more experienced player if we have random rules garbage. And I NEVER used to, until one day, I mentioned this, where he made the pre-boss cast "protection from good" on itself, and nearly killed everyone because everyone with the good descriptor was told that they couldn't do damage. There was one fighter and a druid's familiar that were able to anything at all. The spell actually gives them a deflection bonus to AC and a resistance bonus to spells...it is a +2 bonus. Aka not the invincible monster he turned it into. That had everyone pretty upset, especially because I asked him to read it again to make sure, and he said he did.

And he was being inconsistent, saying one day that the church doesn't make a profit off of what they sell (when my character made holy water to sell and he said they wouldn't buy it) and then saying they charged us a 5,000gp service fee. And then lying to my face by saying he made it cheaper than what the book said it should be... And not allowing us to buy off the permanent negative levels. It's just frustrating and hurtful; he was telling me tall tales about how MOST GM's charge 100,000 for a resurrection but from reactions on here that is not the case. His logic is "you're bringing somebody back to life, of course it is expensive!" Yes I agree, but 10,000 is expensive as it is.

Edit: I KNOW he can't know everything all the time. Who can! :) I just wanted a second opinion. Nobody else in my group knows he charged us more. I have kept it to myself. I'm just looking for advice, and this is the advice forum. He does stuff like this quite often, and if it was now and again it would be one thing but it's not. At the same time, he is also pretty careful to take out rooms that he thinks are too powerful, like the shadows in the basement of Thistletop. He is an all-around good GM, and a good guy, who likes our characters and wants us to live. But saying "I want you to live" and "I feel bad about you dying" and then randomly houseruling it so that resurrections will be nigh impossible... I just don't think he understood the impact of what he did by raising the price, and when I pointed out that he made an inconsistency, he basically said "Stop your logic, my word is law," which to me says "I will change the things I said before so it suits me, but it doesn't actually benefit me in any way and it hurts you."


silvermage wrote:
Well anyway, today a character died. We were in the haunted house from RotR in the 2nd book, (5th level characters at this point,) and she cut her own throat open with a sharp length of wood that she thought was a dagger. My paladin tried to stop her but she counter-attacked and surpassed my AC, then proceeded to kill herself.

Obviously it's too late to do anything about it now, but you should have your GM take a closer look at the wording of that haunt. He absolutely ran that wrong.

Spoiler:
Attempting to stop the victim from slitting their throat causes them to instead attack whoever is attempting to intervene, automatically scoring a crit and also dealing some bleed damage, after which the haunt ends, the dagger turns back into a wooden splinter, and they do not continue with their attempt.

Plus, even if nobody attempts to stop them, it's not quite an automatic death. It's a coup de grace attempt. Make a fort save equal to 10+the damage from critting yourself and you're fine.

Making those haunts more deadly than they are is a rather bad idea, since that's just going to encourage the party to avoid triggering them, missing out on a huge chunk of experience, and missing out on the unfolding story behind the location.


Googleshng wrote:
silvermage wrote:
Well anyway, today a character died. We were in the haunted house from RotR in the 2nd book, (5th level characters at this point,) and she cut her own throat open with a sharp length of wood that she thought was a dagger. My paladin tried to stop her but she counter-attacked and surpassed my AC, then proceeded to kill herself.

Obviously it's too late to do anything about it now, but you should have your GM take a closer look at the wording of that haunt. He absolutely ran that wrong.

** spoiler omitted **

Making those haunts more deadly than they are is a rather bad idea, since that's just going to encourage the party to avoid triggering them, missing out on a huge chunk of experience, and missing out on the unfolding story behind the location.

He did have her do the damage, I tried to stop her and she attacked me, but then continued with the coup...she rolled pretty badly on the fort save as a sorcerer. I'd say something to him about it but I think he'd just yell at me for knowing anything about it at all.

But it's exactly things like that that make me double check him often... Now the party is down 15,000 gp and our sorcerer is a level behind forever. :(


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I'm really amazed that so few people have pointed out that the real problem seems to be the poor relations here. The GM reacts rudely to questions, getting "mad" to the point that the OP is concerned he'll get "even madder" if he finds out she's still dissatisfied with the ruling. That's not a good attitude to have in many roles, especially that of the GM.

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