Guns


Advice

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I recently started playing Pathfinder. I was told it was just one of the versions of d&d. Ok, I can live with that. Cool visions of St Gygax dancing in my head I dove into our first character building session.

Then I get to the table and I'm told, 'there's guns'. What's more, 'there's gunslingers'. I'm thinking, 'well somebody could have told me we were doing that'. Because frankly if I wanted to play a game with 'gunslingers' I do it in the wild west.

Any advice on playing in a game with an element that is really jarring for you? I thought about just translating 'crossbow' in my head whenever somebody mentioned guns.

The GM is the only stranger at the table and I really want to be welcoming to him as he seems like a nice kid.

Am I worrying too much?

Thanks,
Karl


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Pathfinder is a rewrite of the 3.5 version of D&D, which came about long after Mr. Gygax's time with the game.

Guns are an odd addition to the setting if you expect traditional swords and sorcery fantasy, but before you get too worried see if the GM plans to include them or not. If guns are included, I hope you give it a chance. We had a gunslinger in my last group and it didn't feel that strange.


Ciaran Barnes wrote:

Pathfinder is a rewrite of the 3.5 version of D&D, which came about long after Mr. Gygax's time with the game.

Last version of d&d I played was 1st e ad&d when Regan was in his first term. I heard 'd&d' and thought, 'how different can it be?'. Boy was I in for a surprise. Some of the changes were fun looking others were, 'whoa, that's really different'. Still I am determined to give it a chance. I'd hate to give up on something I missed for thirty some years.


Well it depends on what type of firearms they have. In my campaign my GM only allows primitive firearms and no advanced firearms, so while flintlocks and blunderbusses are perfectly fine, he's drawing the line and saying no revolvers or repeating rifles. That to me sounds more in line with D&D and Pathfinder fantasy games so that someone can make a musket wielder or a pirate but they can't go creating a John Wayne cowboy amongst knights and wizards.

I can certainly understand the surprise by it, but as long as the GM doesn't let gunslinger players go crazy over what they're packing I don't see too big a problem with it.


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Guns were present in late middle ages, early Renaissance, depending on the location, 1132 for the first ones in China. 14th Century for the Arab world and then made their way to Europe around the 15th century. So I can easily imagine the first basic unreliable firearms in a medieval-light setting. As was previously said talk to your GM if they bother you, in the game I run I don't allow them for thematic reasons.

Silver Crusade

Players can add to the richness of the game world when it comes to moments like these. Consider your character knowing someone who tried these "demon devices that spit fire" and having a story where it blew up and killed them. In Dragonlance, gnomes are always creating crazy inventions (not mass producing, if you make the same thing twice where's the fun in that?) and thematically guns work with them. Forgotten Realms justified guns as rarities perhaps known by worshippers of Gond the Wondermaker but rejected by many as unwieldy and more dangerous than a good sword.

Mechanically I have issues with the gunslinger, but thematically if you're creative enough, it can all make sense (as much sense as a fantasy world can make...).


Also one thing to consider is Firearms were present in Europe (and much earlier in asia) in the 14th century, while the full plate armour (which has been in dnd forever) what created in the 15th and 16th century, so that is more anachronistic that the firearms. So that might help you reconcile in your head a little more.

But as a few people mentioned. Early firearms are optional (and advanced firearms are even more optional on top of that.)so maybe your dm isn't even using them?


Yup I was aware fire arms and cannon were in the middle ages some places and some times. They just weren't in any d&d game I have played.

I was expecting high fantasy. King Arthur, Roland, and Greek and Norse myths mixed with Tolkien and the Hyborian age. Excuse me I have to tell some kids to get off my lawn...

Back, Okay the little bast- I mean the little scamps won't be back. I am going to give him a chance and subtly ask if we can't pretty please keep guns far, far away. If we do wind up with guns in the game it won't kill me. Although all my older male relatives have died of heart attacks.


Meh. Flavor-wise, it is about as jarring for your Euro-centric fantasy world as kung-fu style monks, and hopefully you aren't adverse to them either. As someone that grew up on both your 'traditional fantasy' and martial arts films where the actors were all on wires, I make little difference between them.

Personally, I like that fantasy doesn't just mean medieval Europe. Pathfinders includes mythology from many different regions and time periods, and I feel it is richer for it. Not everything has to be Tolkien.

And heck, why don't you play a Wild West themed game? You made it sound like it was a bad thing. Why don't you have Custer versus the elf chief Little Big Ears. Have wizards doing ray duels at high noon. Have a paladin sherif trying to cut the Asmodeus Gang off at the pass. The only real change is that you are fighting in deserts/prairies and caves instead of temperate forests and caves, and you use bad western accents rather than bad Ren Faire accents.

I will say though, if the player begins to say anything about 'double pistols' and 'two weapon fighting', then you are more than invited to smack him in the face with the whole of the Lord of the Rings trilogy. The builds made by people that go for those typically have 4 times the usual number of attacks of what the gunslinger was designed for, and require some madness about juggling weapons on a string or growing extra arms with an alchemist multiclass. Don't allow them an inch on the issue when it comes to that.


Firearms are completely optional rules. The GM is specifically empowered to set the tone of the campaign by setting the rarity of firearms to anywhere from commonplace to completely nonexistent.

As for whether the game is still fun with guns, I'd answer "absolutely".

As for whether it fits the theme of the game, I'd answer "depends". Pathfinder, like D&D, can be used for widely disparate campaign settings, from high Tolkienesque fantasies to gothic or Lovecraftian horror to fantastic magitech whimsy. Firearms may or may not be appropriate in any of these, just as in earlier editions. (On a historical note, Chainmail had stats for the arquebus; these were dropped from 1st edition D&D but added back in by AD&D.)

In the canonical Pathfinder setting, Golarion, firearms are mostly limited to [url]one particular area of the world[/url] where magic is either nullified or very unreliable due to environmental phenomena. A few do manage to make it out of the area, but because they are dangerous to the user and require such specific training to use effectively, almost nobody uses them outside of the Mana Wastes.

Give the game a chance. Depending on the GM, the inclusion of firearms might have no effect on your enjoyment of the game--or it might even improve the flavor. There's nothing like watching a nonproficient enemy goblin blow himself up trying to shoot you with a broken pistol.


lemeres wrote:

Meh. Flavor-wise, it is about as jarring for your Euro-centric fantasy world as kung-fu style monks, and hopefully you aren't adverse to them either. As someone that grew up on both your 'traditional fantasy' and martial arts films where the actors were all on wires, I make little difference between them.

Personally, I like that fantasy doesn't just mean medieval Europe. Pathfinders includes mythology from many different regions and time periods, and I feel it is richer for it. Not everything has to be Tolkien.

And heck, why don't you play a Wild West themed game? You made it sound like it was a bad thing. Why don't you have Custer versus the elf chief Little Big Ears. Have wizards doing ray duels at high noon. Have a paladin sherif trying to cut the Asmodeus Gang off at the pass. The only real change is that you are fighting in deserts/prairies and caves instead of temperate forests and caves, and you use bad western accents rather than bad Ren Faire accents.

I will say though, if the player begins to say anything about 'double pistols' and 'two weapon fighting', then you are more than invited to smack him in the face with the whole of the Lord of the Rings trilogy. The builds made by people that go for those typically have 4 times the usual number of attacks of what the gunslinger was designed for, and require some madness about juggling weapons on a string or growing extra arms with an alchemist multiclass. Don't allow them an inch on the issue when it comes to that.

There's nothing wrong with TWF pistols--it's impossible to maintain unless you have expensive no-ammo-required magic guns or extra arms--but run screaming if double-barreled firearms come into play. Those are just wrong, and that from somebody who doesn't really care much about game balance.


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There have been stats for guns in D&D since 1e. This is not new.


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Honestly, my advice is "get over it".

Not in a spiteful way, just a friendly little nudge to not let something so minor ruin a fun game for you.

I've played (and run) games both with guns and without, and I don't see that it's altered the setting as much as you think it may, as long as the firearms are kept to being mostly Early Firearms (with the occasional Advanced Firearm as semi-magical mid-level loot or some kind of experimental device).

Really the only difference is some people use them instead of crossbows for a "Single shot, then move in for melee" weapon.

Scarab Sages

Your fears may be for nothing. In my area, most GMs dont allow gunslingers for just the reason you mention, they are not what many PnP RPGers expect in their fantasy setting. Even in the games that allow them, you will often find no one chooses to play one.

My group absolutely refuses to play with firearms of any kind and also want nothing to do with Silvermount and Numeria. Numeria is sort of like Barrier Peaks from 1st ed, where they have androids, ray guns, robots, etc all left over from the ancient crash of a starship in the desert there. I can understand their feelings, so I agreed to run without either of these things in my setting.

If your group limits guns to simpler firearms or not at all, then you will probably find it not too disturbing to your psyche :)


lemeres wrote:

Meh. Flavor-wise, it is about as jarring for your Euro-centric fantasy world as kung-fu style monks, and hopefully you aren't adverse to them either. As someone that grew up on both your 'traditional fantasy' and martial arts films where the actors were all on wires, I make little difference between them.

Personally, I like that fantasy doesn't just mean medieval Europe. Pathfinders includes mythology from many different regions and time periods, and I feel it is richer for it. Not everything has to be Tolkien.

And heck, why don't you play a Wild West themed game? You made it sound like it was a bad thing. Why don't you have Custer versus the elf chief Little Big Ears. Have wizards doing ray duels at high noon. Have a paladin sherif trying to cut the Asmodeus Gang off at the pass. The only real change is that you are fighting in deserts/prairies and caves instead of temperate forests and caves, and you use bad western accents rather than bad Ren Faire accents.

I will say though, if the player begins to say anything about 'double pistols' and 'two weapon fighting', then you are more than invited to smack him in the face with the whole of the Lord of the Rings trilogy. The builds made by people that go for those typically have 4 times the usual number of attacks of what the gunslinger was designed for, and require some madness about juggling weapons on a string or growing extra arms with an alchemist multiclass. Don't allow them an inch on the issue when it comes to that.

To be quite frank I would absolutely love to try a Wild West themed Pathfinder campaign. Being a fan of Westerns, I'd already see myself making a Dragonborn (4e Converted of course) Pistoleros with a whole Man With No Name theme going for him and have a blast with that. It's just that for the more old school players I stated that using only primitive firearms would be an effective compromise so that you won't have people complaining about six shooters being used next to a long sword and shield.


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If you hate guns that much, you're going to love the fact that the official default setting has androids.


lemeres wrote:
Meh. Flavor-wise, it is about as jarring for your Euro-centric fantasy world as kung-fu style monks, and hopefully you aren't adverse to them either. As someone that grew up on both your 'traditional fantasy' and martial arts films where the actors were all on wires, I make little difference between them.

Ha! your 'Fantasy Geek Card' is hereby revoked, From People of the Black Circle by RE Howard,

"But hypnotism was not all of Khemsa's magic. Yasmina, watching, did not see by what roguery of movement or illusion the man in the green turban avoided the terrible disembowelling thrust. But the keen blade whickered between side and lifted arm, and to Yasmina it seemed that Khemsa merely brushed his open palm lightly against Conan's bull-neck. But the Cimmerian went down like a slain ox."

Tell me that's not martial arts! Ha! written forty years before 'Kung-Fu' owned its time slot.


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Zhayne wrote:
If you hate guns that much, you're going to love the fact that the official default setting has androids.

I just died a little inside.

Scarab Sages

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Androids: Yeah they are in Numeria, however the race is an optional race, not core as a PC race.

I did get my group of gun-haters to agree to black powder single shot pistols and cannons for a future Skull and Shackles (pirate AP) game, which I think is one place where black powder COULD fit in a fantasy world.


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Karl Hammarhand wrote:

I recently started playing Pathfinder. I was told it was just one of the versions of d&d. Ok, I can live with that. Cool visions of St Gygax dancing in my head I dove into our first character building session.

Then I get to the table and I'm told, 'there's guns'. What's more, 'there's gunslingers'. I'm thinking, 'well somebody could have told me we were doing that'. Because frankly if I wanted to play a game with 'gunslingers' I do it in the wild west.

Any advice on playing in a game with an element that is really jarring for you? I thought about just translating 'crossbow' in my head whenever somebody mentioned guns.

The GM is the only stranger at the table and I really want to be welcoming to him as he seems like a nice kid.

Am I worrying too much?

Thanks,
Karl

Well gunslingers are a class that brings out a specific element, this element lies in a particular portion of the campaign setting. Specifically Alkenstar. Its meant to be a wild westy type location.

One aspect you will probably need to adapt to if your dm is playing in golarion is it is a kitchen sink sort of setting. Everything is there, separated by region. That includes some very specific themese like eastern flavors with ninja and samurai, old west stlye themes in alkenstar, Norse/Viking type stuff, lost jungle cities, pirate waters, pretty much every archetypical setting type is represented somewhere on golarion. That means it is in Pathfinder RPG. Obviously the gm can limit this to tastes, but it is a part of the game as a whole.

Also, given picturing visions of gygax, there was alot more then guns in his fantasy. There were spaceship riding lazer armed robot spiders...If you are picturing tolkien, sure, but Gygax was largely inspired by the dieing earth series by Jack Vance (hence Vancian Casting), and that setting wasnt midevil, it was post modern in what amounts to a post apocalyptic setting. There are flying cars and space ships in the stories that are the origins of dnd.

My advice is give it a chance. Talk to the dm about his setting and see if you can find a place to put a character you would like to play. There are LOTS of different kinds of fantasy, and dnd was always meant to be a complete representation, from the strictest tolkien purists, to the airship, robot craziness of stuff like eberon. I know there were rules for firearms as far back as 2nd Edition, and I think they were in ADnD too, not sure though, cant specifically remember. It isnt a new thing developed in pathfinder, paizo just isnt as strict about separating things out, since they want as much as possible in the one setting (Golarion)


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redcelt32 wrote:
Androids: Yeah they are in Numeria, however the race is an optional race, not core as a PC race.

All races are optional races.

And for the billionth time, Eberron does not have robots. Warforged are Golems.


I played the game at least as far back as you. It wasn't actually in the default/core books, but there were add-ons and modules with guns, cannons, even lasers, and robots clear back to the beginnings. They always kinda made me roll my eyes, but whatever.

I don't particularly like guns in my fantasy either. But I'm usually ok with it as long as they stick to the early firearms (which is what most GM's seem to do). Not that accurate, fast, and reliable. They don't usually mess up a game.
But when some player talks the GM into allowing him plentiful access to advanced firearms... Well suddenly the gunslinger is taking over.
"Hunh wadya know, a modern assault rifle is superior to a crossbow. Who woulda thunk that could happen." =(

My problems with guns are more the mechanics set up for them. The rules as written, they are too accurate, too reliable, and the rate of fire is way too freakin high. Having said that, they're still better than most of the other D&D versions of gun rules that I have seen.

Rather than try to talk the GM out of allowing guns, I'd just ask him to limit them to the early firearms.


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I recently started playing Pathfinder. I was told it was just one of the versions of d&d. Ok, I can live with that. Cool visions of St Gygax dancing in my head I dove into our first character building session.

Then I get to the table and I'm told, 'there's full casters'. What's more, 'there's god wizards'. I'm thinking, 'well somebody could have told me we were doing that'. Because frankly if I wanted to play a game with 'god wizards' I do it in Mage:the ascension.

Any advice on playing in a game with an element that is really jarring for you? I thought about just translating 'DMPC with unlimited narrative power' in my head whenever somebody mentioned full casters.

The GM is the only stranger at the table and I really want to be welcoming to him as he seems like a nice kid.

Am I worrying too much?

Thanks,
Knave

Spoiler:
Sorry, I thought it'd be funny. No offence meant to anyone


Kolokotroni wrote:


Well gunslingers are a class that brings out a specific element, this element lies in a particular portion of the campaign setting. Specifically Alkenstar. Its meant to be a wild westy type location.

One aspect you will probably need to adapt to if your dm is playing in golarion is it is a kitchen sink sort of setting. Everything is there, separated by region. That includes some very specific themese like eastern flavors with ninja and samurai, old west stlye themes in alkenstar, Norse/Viking type stuff, lost jungle cities, pirate waters, pretty much every archetypical setting type is represented somewhere on golarion. That means it is in Pathfinder RPG. Obviously the gm can limit this to tastes, but it is a part of the game as a whole.

Also, given picturing visions of gygax, there was alot more then guns in his fantasy. There were spaceship riding lazer armed robot spiders...If you are picturing tolkien, sure, but Gygax was largely inspired by the dieing earth series by Jack Vance (hence Vancian Casting), and that setting wasnt midevil, it was post modern in what amounts to a post apocalyptic setting. There are flying cars and space ships in the stories that are the origins of
...

Yup, played Metamorphasis Alpha and Gamma World, and the TSR space game I can't remember the name of, even read some spelljammer stuff (never allowed it near my games) and I've read 'The Dying Earth' (good stuff by the way). Just never thought guns would be part of any standardized default d&d type setting.

I played in dozens of campaigns and thousands of sessions and guns came up exactly zero times in a d&d setting. I'll agree his spells were Vancian, but the setting? Pure RE Howard, Tolkien, Leiber, Anderson, Lovecraft and Moorcock with Greek, Arthurian, and Norse myth thrown in. Later stuff crept in like rats in the walls.

Still I would be willing to be convinced that 1st e ad&d had firearms (I gave away my books decades ago) but I sure don't remember them. And If they are there they shouldn'a be!


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LoneKnave wrote:

I recently started playing Pathfinder. I was told it was just one of the versions of d&d. Ok, I can live with that. Cool visions of St Gygax dancing in my head I dove into our first character building session.

Then I get to the table and I'm told, 'there's full casters'. What's more, 'there's god wizards'. I'm thinking, 'well somebody could have told me we were doing that'. Because frankly if I wanted to play a game with 'god wizards' I do it in Mage:the ascension.

Any advice on playing in a game with an element that is really jarring for you? I thought about just translating 'DMPC with unlimited narrative power' in my head whenever somebody mentioned full casters.

The GM is the only stranger at the table and I really want to be welcoming to him as he seems like a nice kid.

Am I worrying too much?

Thanks,
Knave

** spoiler omitted **

I was going to 'favorite' you. Then you went and started using new-fangled words I haven't even seen. So no favorite for you!

No offense taken. I think you were funny even if I did have to look stuff up to get the joke. Now get off my lawn.

Funny thing is I really did have to shout 'get off my lawn' while having these conversations but it was at the dang elk. I have a herd of about 80 wandering around my house driving my dog nuts and eating all my birdseed as we are speaking.


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Pfft. 1e had rules for conversions to and from Boot Hill AND Gamma World.

Sorry to break it to you, but D&D has evolved far beyond beyond that, and I daresay most of us are grateful for it. Better to provide options that a GM can limit or ban on and individual basis.

Oh, and the TSR space game was Star Frontiers.


Zhayne wrote:
If you hate guns that much, you're going to love the fact that the official default setting has androids.

Just to be clear I don't hate guns. Not even in RPG's and they fit fine with a 'swashbuckler' theme, wild west, modern, horror (useless mostly but I feel like a tool saying 'I'll take the flashlight into the basement' without my backup piece), space, sci-fi etc.

I just don't like them in high fantasy and I was expecting high fantasy.


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Karl Hammarhand wrote:
... Still I would be willing to be convinced that 1st e ad&d had firearms (I gave away my books decades ago) but I sure don't remember them. And If they are there they shouldn'a be!

Yup. They were there. I remember a couple of modules.

One had some shipwrecked natives from across the ocean with 'boom sticks' that they quickly ran out of ammo and no one in the survivors knew how to make more.

Another with ... might have been goblins using the special 'wands' made by a brilliant shaman. It went on to describe them as single use magic wands. But there was a special ritual to make them function again. blah blah blah. But the picture was a primitive matchlock long arm.
I think it was the same one that described a primitive mortar. But it explodes when the badguys try to use it against the PC's.

I thought they were kinda campy and I don't think they sold real well. But a few people loved them.


Zhayne wrote:


Oh, and the TSR space game was Star Frontiers.

Thank you I had forgotten that. Somewhere I think I still have my metamorphosis alpha rules. That was a fun game setting.


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Zhayne wrote:
redcelt32 wrote:
Androids: Yeah they are in Numeria, however the race is an optional race, not core as a PC race.

All races are optional races.

And for the billionth time, Eberron does not have robots. Warforged are Golems.

Golem, robot, a construct is a construct.


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Yeah, PF isn't really what I think of as 'high fantasy' it's more of 'all inclusive everything fantasy' to be limited at the option of the GM. But to some people, the term 'high fantasy' means anything is possible.

I had forgotten about Star Frontiers. I thought that was great for a while back in the day.

Sczarni RPG Superstar Season 9 Top 16, RPG Superstar 2015 Top 32

No one is forcing you to use all of the elements of the game or the Pathfinder setting. If you don't want guns, androids, or higher technologies in your game then ask the GM not to use them. Be polite about it, and if he is insistent in using them just try it out.

Paizo has a business practice of trying to write and cover as many different genres. Agree with it or not, it is good business to do so if they are only going to have one campaign setting. It allows them to reach more possible customers and be attractive to larger audiences. No where though do they say that you need to use all of their settings or rules. They are only attempting to provide a tool box with as many usable tools as possible. For example, if the Pathfinder setting was a work shop it would have tools for metal work, casting, carpentry, sculpting, jewelry making, and more. Nothing in the shop says that you need to use every tool, just the ones you need for your project.

So yes, there are firearms but no one is going to twist your arms to use them.


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Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
Yeah, PF isn't really what I think of as 'high fantasy' it's more of 'all inclusive everything fantasy' to be limited at the option of the GM.

As it should be, IMAO. If you want to run a Tolkien thing, you can. If you want to run a samurai setting, you can. Literally every game element is optional, every race, every class, every feat, every piece of equipment.

In the past, I've run games without magic, without gods (my default, really), without humans, without any of the CRB races ... anything is possible.


Balancewise, Advanced Firearms are less of an issue than Early Firearms. They DO keep their touch-AC targeting at much longer ranges, but there's much less, uh, "rate of fire" exploitation that's possible with metal cartridge weapons than anything using paper alchemicals. Even better: Without some serious dedication to the weapon's use, a character using firearms is going to start having trouble keeping up with others... Though scary for anyone whose idea of "challenges" or "making a fight interesting" is going "THIS orc is in PLATE! See?", the truth is... The guns? They actually kinda suck!

Golarion has countries so advanced that the state of many weapons *cough*CROSSBOWS*cough*POLEARMTRAINING*cough* leaves a lot to be desired. You wonder why some things are stone-age stats, and ONLY available in exactly that fashion, while other things are available as both early and modern, or even assume modern manufacturing techniques while pretending to be a long stick of wood/bone/sinew. There's also blatant disregard for the ability of certain glues to even function in wet climates but let's not get into that.

Basically, just accept guns, let yourself realize that meh, whatever, it's not so bad, and that they're not as broken as what that ranger with the longbow's doing anyways, and nowhere near as problematic as Mr.Divinations the Conjurer over there. He's been giggling while alternating between that spell section and your pile of GM Notes for a reason, by the way. You should probably hide away any of the porn you slipped in there. Just sayin. Might have to "hand the pile over" and let him make adjustments in a minute and all that. Totally Legit.


Zhayne wrote:
Kydeem de'Morcaine wrote:
Yeah, PF isn't really what I think of as 'high fantasy' it's more of 'all inclusive everything fantasy' to be limited at the option of the GM.

As it should be, IMAO. If you want to run a Tolkien thing, you can. If you want to run a samurai setting, you can. Literally every game element is optional, every race, every class, every feat, every piece of equipment.

In the past, I've run games without magic, without gods (my default, really), without humans, without any of the CRB races ... anything is possible.

I wasn't complaining about that. Just observing that it is not what some people expect. They come to PF expecting magic, blades, knights, chivalry, and European style legends of fae.

What is all this crap with guns, monks, samurai, ninja, alchemists, etc...

I have no problem with the rules having it all and limiting it for my own campaigns.


Karl Hammarhand wrote:

Yup, played Metamorphasis Alpha and Gamma World, and the TSR space game I can't remember the name of, even read some spelljammer stuff (never allowed it near my games) and I've read 'The Dying Earth' (good stuff by the way). Just never thought guns would be part of any standardized default d&d type setting.

Depends on what you mean by standard. Greyhawk always struck me as the standard setting for it (obviously not everyone agrees. Expedition to barrier peaks takes place in greyhawk, written by Gygax himself in the 80's i believe. It literally takes place on a crashed space ship, with lazer guns and robots. But is a dnd adventure that takes place in the standard dnd setting written by gygax himself. I dont know how much more standard it can get.

Quote:

I played in dozens of campaigns and thousands of sessions and guns came up exactly zero times in a d&d setting. I'll agree his spells were Vancian, but the setting? Pure RE Howard, Tolkien, Leiber, Anderson, Lovecraft and Moorcock with Greek, Arthurian, and Norse myth thrown in. Later stuff crept in like rats in the walls.

See above about barrier peaks. It didnt creep in, it was always there, it just wasnt a major point of emphasis.

Still I would be willing to be convinced that 1st e ad&d had firearms (I gave away my books decades ago) but I sure don't remember them. And If they are there they shouldn'a be!

Shouldnt be is an opion, but certainly not factual. And regardless of what was or wasnt part of 'dnd' of the past, it is part of golarion. Paizo has put a MUCH bigger emphasis on having a single campaign setting, so it is alot more all inclusive. They are modular, you can easily for instance remove alkenstar from the setting and there is no vast permiation of guns and old west themes, but if a dm is using all of golarion, just about everything is in there. Ninjas, gunslingers, robots and space ships, even some 20th century themes in reign of winter (WWI era russia), its all in there somewhere.


Quote:
They come to PF expecting magic, blades, knights, chivalry, and European style legends of fae.

Why?


It's the DM's world. Let him know how you feel and IF he insists on guns.....try and just have fun anyway.

Really few DM's I have played with like Guns ni the game much at all so there is a big chance it will not come up.

Even if it doesn't though,let him know how you feel cause sooner or later it might.

I did play in one game that the DM let guns out in a big way.It was a pain till mid/high level play then it just didn't seem to matter anymore. I still didn't like it but everyone else was doing so many crazy things....gunplay seemed rather unimpressive and one of the least breaking fantasy parts of that game. Flying ships,Hoards of Synthesis Summoners,Wizards turning into Dragons,Gods getting killed,mountains blowing up.A Gun? Mah..whatever.


blahpers wrote:
Quote:
They come to PF expecting magic, blades, knights, chivalry, and European style legends of fae.
Why?

Don't really have an answer for that except, "Well that's always how we used to run our D&D games way back when."


Karl Hammarhand wrote:
Ciaran Barnes wrote:

Pathfinder is a rewrite of the 3.5 version of D&D, which came about long after Mr. Gygax's time with the game.

Last version of d&d I played was 1st e ad&d when Regan was in his first term. I heard 'd&d' and thought, 'how different can it be?'. Boy was I in for a surprise. Some of the changes were fun looking others were, 'whoa, that's really different'. Still I am determined to give it a chance. I'd hate to give up on something I missed for thirty some years.

Guns are definitively a point of contention for many. I personally tend to look to my fantasy to be of the Lord of the Rings/Game of Thrones flavor... others enjoy robots, space ships and ray guns as part of their 'fantasy' flavor. There is no such thing as 'badwrongfun', but there is a legitimate reality to the fact that one group's style of play may not suit you as well as another's. I don't know how realistic an option it is for you, but I hope you find another group to enjoy Pathfinder with if this group's style doesn't feel right.

Personally, I've seen nothing that guns add to a campaign that justified their inclusion if even one member of the group doesn't care for that particular flavor in their games.


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Please, Tolkien had Shotguns in LotR world.

Silver Crusade

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1st Edition's 1976 Expedition to Barrier Peaks was run at Origins to expose D&D players to the sci-fi RPG that became Gamma World. I've got a copy but never run it under the premise it would ruin the atmosphere. Still, I think a one-time shot with guns, sci-fi, and androids would be interesting. But an everyday thing? The fun of the adventure was pretending to not know what these weird devices did and puzzling out how things worked. 2E introduced a Pirates supplement that went heavy into the personal firearms. As a whole, they were a curiosity, and certainly unable to be "swiftly" reloaded or fired in 6 seconds like Pathfinder allows, which really stretches the imagination (because we're not saying it's magic, we're saying it's skill).


Frodo with a Gat! "Yo Sauron! Say Hello to my little friend!"


Goldenfrog wrote:
Frodo with a Gat! "Yo Sauron! Say Hello to my little friend!"

Gandalf with an AK-47; "When you absolutely have to kill every Orc in the room."


Jumping on the android comment, Pathfinder has giant robots, lasers, missiles, plasma cannons, force fields (techno shields, not magic ones) and space ships. While i cant say for certain about 1st edition, those were all in 2nd edition before it. And in both cases they just provide rules in case the GM wants to include those bits. Most games i've played there arent even the blackpowder guns available. Although immersion wise it gets a little wonky when the black powder pistol wielder is taking out terminator knock offs in round one.


You just HAD to one up me eh?

Gandalf with a AK-47 is just so unrealistic.


This would make the 'you have my (weapon)' scene much more entertaining.


Starbuck_II wrote:
Please, Tolkien had Shotguns in LotR world.

And in that particular flavor I'd be fine with them. Did Tolkien have gun-juggling gunslingers rapid-firing flintlocks and one-shotting dragons?

No.

I'm less opposed to including guns as a curiosity or novelty - a gnome with a homemade rifle as likely to backfire as not or a pirate who fires his pistol once and then draws his sword - than I am entire classes built around making primitive firearms do things they are were never intended to be capable of.

Just my take at my table. If you want to laser it up then laser it up. Bombard the entire planet from orbit if that's what says 'fantasy' to you. Each to his own.


Dude,you just Nuked from Orbit.

Come on...now where do we go from here?

Gnomeship Troopers?


Obviously, in Pathfinder, they are intended to do that, or else they wouldn't be able to do that.

In a world of dragons, elves, wizards and gods that are proven to exist, realistic firearms gets your goat?

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