Umbranus wrote:You have a cleric and a sorcerer in your party and the fighter gets all the attention? How's that? What exactly are the sorcerer and cleric doing? At 12th level full casters can already bend the universe to do their bidding.For exemple, imagine you are faced with 5 jackal-like constructs and 2 glabrezu (second one appear later with a wizard), and after the first round, the fighter is around 30 hp...what would you do as a cleric? if you don't heal the fighter, it's probably tpk!!! During the early rounds, the cleric has managed to cast a banishment, but the Glabrezu saved! so much for SoS spell!!!..Lucky for us, the glabrezu didn't arrived at the same time with all their power word stun!! The first round the sorcerer got stun and the bard had to remove it!!
If there is one fight in which the sorc gets stunned and the cleric has to heal after one failed spell is all it takes for the fighter to dominate the group, yea, that can happen.But in the long run, if it keeps on happening then it is not the fighter's fault.
This is not about bad-wrong-fun mind you. If people like to play supporters they are welcome. But if they like it they would not complain about being overshadowed by the one they are supporting/buffing because everything the buffed guy accomplishes is a group effort.
BTW: Your using of multiple !!!!!! after every sentence "sounds" rather agitated. What in my statement about clerics and sorcs having the potential of not being overshadowed by a mere
mortal martial caused that?
I don't understand why a fighter can still be the centre of attention in combat all the time when you guys are in level 12. Fighter is the easiest to counter. Especially two handed fighter, just so many weak spots. I guess he is wearing full plate, which should have even more weak spots.
If GM send a high AC boss, the fighter shouldn't be the only one that can hurt it.
From what I'm seeing, Cleric is pretty much a heal bot, there are much better way to win then healings. Bard shouldn't be healing, it should support the team or play some deadly Dirge of Doom and cast some deadly level 4 spells.
Rogue don't just stand there and sneak attack straight away, throw net, start tripping and then sneak attack. Giving +2 is not all rogue can do, rogue is awesome if you play it well, you have to think fast, think smart and think far ahead. How I would play a rogue is that he will live no matter what, and he will success no matter how long it takes to set things up. Back in the day, I spend days setting traps in the city when my barbarian drank till he's drunk. I planned it so perfectly, the enemies(the DM) can't keep track with every single thing I did, one wrong move and he fall for it. Add weather, terrain and everything into your calculation, if it's windy, don't use smoke bomb. Use ink instead.
As for the sorcerer, what is the sorcerer doing? Where are those 10d6 damaging fireballs when you need them? Touch spells won't need much to hit even if the boss got high as. Say he got high dex, you can still do something else. Where are those summon spells that so cheap and dirty that can kill any things because he has 3 huge elementals after 3 rounds of summoning? 3 of Earth Elemental doing 2 slams +17 (2d8+9) with +1 to hit if both boss and them are on the ground. If done right, fighter would not even have the space to go in and reach the boss.
That's all I can think of to help your team. I could be wrong, he might be min/maxing so hard, or your GM throw way too much items at him at this level. I never use much magical items before level 10. So far my level 8 still haven't use any magical weapon or armor at all. So yeah, good luck.
Do you fell the figthers is taking center stage because he will fall without the casters to support? Is he constantly taking damage and does the cleric gear that spending a round on somthing other than healing the figther is risking TPK? High damage, semi low defense characters can force the party to figth every battle around them like that. If that is the case i suggest taking about it in the group possibly in game. And pehaps letting the figther go Down a few times for educational reasons.
But if he is just dishing out a zillion hit points damage and not "forcing" actions on the rest of the team then i think throwing a few more minions in to every battle will make every body feel useful.
I went back and read the OP's posts. This isn't a fighter issue at all but a cleric one.
The Player playing the Cleric is not finding the support cleric role a fun one.
He is of the mind that Cleric is truly a bad arse class but not if all you do is heal!
This is a issue with MANY clerics and one hard to get out of(is why so many people don't play clerics). Once a band-aid,always a band-aid kind of thing.
He can try this.
He needs to talk to everyone else and let them know he will change characters or stop healing during combat.This will probably not go over well as to most players hearing this, what he is saying is"You are going to die".
A party can win with only after fighting healing but only be using tactics wildly different from before.
That fighter who so obviously soaked up tons of damage will need to get out of the way and let mobs beat the crap out of the cleric,the bard and the sorcerer.Only by sharing the damage can this whole thing work.
The cleric will need to learn to dish out the damage like crazy to make up for the lack of healing and kill things fast.
Really it's all about killing everything FAST and fighting smart.Also healing magic needs to become a priority for cash spent by the players.
Also keep in mind you will not be as effective as before.There is a reason the tank,healer,damage dealer rolls formed in the first place.It works and well.
You might want to talk to the DM about creating a Feat the pc's can invest in that makes drinking a potion a free action and doesn't cause Attacks of Opportunity.
BTW: Your using of multiple !!!!!! after every sentence "sounds" rather agitated. What in my statement about clerics and sorcs having the potential of not being overshadowed by a mere mortal martial caused that?
I'm sorry, bad habit from my part of putting to many punctuations in sentences...More like translating a state of mind, not about your comment. :-)
Related to your points, the key issue is mostly that because the fighter hits really hard or get in the way (as he should), he attracts attention and lose many hit points. So having him at 30 hp after a round kind of force the cleric to heal him or everyone with channel energy (although channelling is really in a desperate situation when he has to heal many people at the same time).
One suggestion from me: Instead of healing him when he is down the cleric could cast shield other prior to the fight. Increases the AC and saves and makes him last longer without using up actions during combat. And if the stuff hits the fan he can channel to heal them both up at the same time.
Good suggestion in that regard, I will propose it
From the discussions, you all kind of confirmed that the fighter needs more DR and avoidance effects such as invibility, displacement, blur, etc. (and shield other)
Sorcerer and bard are usually doing their job with buffing, debuff, battlefield control with pits/wall of force and direct damage such as scorching rays, fireball, etc. They are not the issue, they don't really complain...
the rogue usually makes himself useful and manages to get in flanking position, but not always. He's not a max/min person so he got some help to build his character and he learned ways to get into flanking. So, of course, when the monster's ac is to high (like needing a 18 or so) he'd rather help the fighter by being in flanking and aid another. This doesn't happened to many times...
Goldenfrog, after reading your post, i'd say you are probably right ...well at least to 90%....
And that is usually the main issue being the cleric spending most of its time healing. In some way, I can relate to him that i wouldn't want to spend all my time healing. But honestly, if we would lose our fighter, we would be in dangereous zone....
We have invested in a staff of healing which the bard is using at times. The bard actually got one level of cleric for roleplaying purposes, hence him using the staff. The good point is the cleric don't have to do all the healing, and can spend some rounds doing something else...
Mind you all, luckily it's not all fights that are goind like this. it,s just the recent ones so some players seems to have some displeasures with that. Although at low levels, it was different in the sense that the fighter could kill mnay monsers in one round with great cleave attacks....another issue...
The Cleric really is a great class.It's very possible to be armored up like a tank,deal out pretty good damage as a melee and being a full caster on top of that.
Being shackled with healing 80% of the time just ruins all that(even if it does need to be done at times). Some people have trouble being support especially when they realize just how kick arse they could be otherwise.
I'm not bashing clerics who go full healer. I'm just saying I can see where the trouble with some clerics comes from.
I think for most groups what is needed is a mix of the cleric kicking arse and healing when things get rough.
It's just hard for them to ween the other group members off of having heal on demand.
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I can relate to the cleric (and sorcerer if he's raising these complaints as well) on this one. Whilst yes, if you're playing a support class, there's a limit to how much spotlight you can and should have. That said, no one likes to feel like their character is merely one of the struts in the pedestal that makes another character shiny.
So, I'd honestly mimic the voice of a lot of other here, but I say it again for emphasis: Raise your Fighter's defense as much as humanly possible. You've got a rather non-tanky class in the fighter (at least compared to Paladins, Monks in the saves department, Barbarians in hitpoints/DR at this point) but he's serving in this role. Not only that, but he's specifically an archetype of fighter that's not made to tank. At best, he's using Full Plate and a Buckler for his armaments, but that still leaves much to be desired at higher levels. This means he's going to take a ton of hits, not do a good job of soaking them, and then need the cleric/bard to come to the rescue with the healing to keep him on his feet.
It's counter intuitive to some degree, but the best way to take back the spotlight to some degree and unshackle the party from supporting the Fighter is to make him tougher, give him more defense. Invest in some Adamantine Full Plate, that's 3 DR, get his AC as high as possible with as many enchantments as possible, and of course don't ignore the cool spells everyone's already mentioned. Do this and you'll probably find that while he's still tanking for the party, he's less likely to drop after one round's worth of attacks just because that's the way it is. In this way, you can make support characters still support characters, but have a greater range of options than just heal spells on repeat.
I agree, this is really a cleric problem.
I saw some stats for the cleric, but not much of the build. I'd recommend sending the cleric's player here to get some help with his build. If he wouldn't be open to that, maybe we can still help by proposing other options.
For instance, has the cleric looked at either of these?
Being able to fire of a channel to heal just your group and still casting a spell might make him feel a lot less "healbot".
This isn't really a problem with the fighter. The fighter is good at combat but it seem you have party the can really buff the fighter. That's what they should be doing. The fighter should be shining but the guys behind the scene doing the buffs should be treating the fighter as tool of battle field control and there fore they are shining just as much.
So, I'd honestly mimic the voice of a lot of other here, but I say it again for emphasis: Raise your Fighter's defense as much as humanly possible.
Based on previous discussion, this is what seems the best course. Will propose that next game, and see what will happen....
As for the cleric builds that some of you requested, here are the key points:
Human Cleric of Sarenrae (and Desna...this is special Boon obtained during game)
STR: 16, DEX: 10, CON: 18, INT: 15, WIS: 24, CHA:18
Favorate class bonus: +1 by-pass outsider SR / level, now at +12)
L1: Die hard
L3: Scribe scrolls
L5: Extra Channel
L5: Combat Casting (got feat as special boon from Desna)
L7: Heavy armor proficiency
L9: Channel Smite
L11: Divine interference
gear: stat bonus items, Full Plate +2, Buckler +2, Ring +2, Amulette nat. armor +3, Cloak +3, scabbard of keen edge, Holy Scimitar +2 (flaming weapon of Sarenrae: he gets +1/+1d6 fire 2/day)
channel energy : 9/day (he uses them a lot: so quick channel would be good, but would reduce a lot number of usages)
Domains: Sun and Healing + Travel (special Boon from Desna)
They are some really awful feats in there. Endurance and Die Hard are simply not worth taking. Channel Smite is pretty bad when you have a Strength of 16 making your chance of hitting anything in melee rather poor. Similarly Extra Channel isn't doing much either as at this level Channel is just not worth a standard action. Even if you take Quick Channel it is barely worth the swift action when that action could have been some form of Quickened Buff. At level 15 with Spell Perfection for Quickened offensive spells it becomes completely redundant.
For level 12 you also seem to be really light on gear.
Ya..endurance and die hard are not good feat for me either, but I think he likes then in order to be able to heal back himself if he gets down to that point...But your point is valid and potential candidates for retraining
Channel smite has been used effectively recently, but is just a prerequisite for Guided hand which should greatly help him for his attack roll
What spell would you select with Spell perfection?
What other two cahnneleing feats would be worth it?
As for gears, I just mentionned most critical ones. Almost all his 4 main stats include +4 from items, so he has invested quite a lot in there (armor is actually +3 and not +2)...got a few scrolls and wand also...
Yeah channel smite eek... quick and selective channel and the cleric is good (maybe extra channel at the most extreme).
For the fighter I would suggest focusing on some ranged combat feats.
Shoot them up has they are closing, swing hard a couple of times, if things get hairy back out a little and shoot again.
What's the rogue like or is he happy?
No Quicken Spell? Seems like a must on a mid to high level caster. Metamagic rod of quicken, even a lesser one, would be a big help too.
Basically, a caster at that level should be looking for ways to do as much per turn as possible.
It might also help to know a typical spell load-out. Obviously a cleric can change daily, but what sort of stuff is the player typically prepping? That can make a big difference in play style at this level.
the rogue is relatively happy normally...Just when he has to hit high armor clas or nons-enakable creatures, but that is expected from a 3/4 BAB with two-weapon fighting.
But i suggested he gets ways to improve his attack roll such as a wand of divine favor, etc.
As for the cleric: here's a sample of spell selection:
Level 1 (6 spells)
Divine Favor X2
Protection from evil
Level 2 (6 spells)
Aid X 2
1 open slot
Level 3 (6 spells)
Deadly Juggernaut (experiment, never tried yet)
Invisibility purge (X2)
Resist Energy, Communal
Level 4 (5 spells)
Blessing of Fervor
Freedom of movement
Fire Shield D
Level 5 (4 spells)
Air Walk communal
Breath of Life
Flame Strike (D)
Level 6 (3 spells)
Hmm, a few comments on those spells.
At this level Bless is definitely not worth a standard action. Obscuring Mist and Protection from X both work equally well as scrolls or Wands, as does Bless if you want to keep access to it.
Aid isn't that great and you can blanket it on your group with a higher level summon spell if you really need it (Lantern Archons and Hound Archons). Silence is probably better on a scroll again, you are never likely to force it onto a caster given the will save so you will generally be casting it on an object.
Deadly Juggernaut is pretty terrible. It's a personal only spell which requires you to be killing things which the character is already struggling with. The rest seem fine although Prayer is pretty weak at this level.
If the sorcerer is dropping Haste you don't need to bother with Blessing of Fervour although it is an excellent spell. Dimensional Anchor is another scroll spell. If they add the feat I would be tempted by something like Persistent Sound Burst or Burst of Radiance here.
Needs more Plane Shift. Best spell in the game for dealing with big brute monsters which don't carry treasure. Things like Purple Worms, Krakens and the Tarrasque have terrible Will saves for their level and can be happily dispatched to your preferred plane of automatic death. I tend to prefer the positive material plane over the negative as there is less chance of the creature spontaneously rising as some sort of undead abomination. Wall of Stone is also decent for area control although it loses its usefulness as more teleporting enemies turn up..
Banishment is a bit specialist and Harm isn't actually all that good being just direct damage. Blade Barrier isn't bad but the big winner here is often Summon Monster VI. I don't know what alignment they are but if they are neutral then the Succubus or Shadow Demon are both strong. I am also a big fan of 1d3 celestial/fiendish Anylosaurus and their daze attack tail swipe for board control.
1st and 2nd not too much of a concerns since usually focussing on bigger spells...although silence is a really good spell. Cast it on a copper and use your action to follow the wizard, he's toasted...DM doesn't like that
3rd: noted for juggernaut, so will suggest to change that...
4rd: sorcerer is usually dropping haste, but Blessing has ist merits: the swift stand has been quite useful, the +2 to hit AND AC is also usuful (even if they don't stack with haste)
Dimensional anchor could probably be a scroll, you are right about that...
Sound burst is not really critical, since the bard is usually doing it among others, and the cleric would rather be a battle cleric than a spellcasting cleric......so he will leave it to the bard
5th; noted for planeshift
6th: Banishment is increasingly useful, as we've met and more outsiders lately. But more of a metagame thing than anything. Harm can be really strong...As for summon 6, the sorcerer is usually doing it too, maong other things such as wall of force, pits, fireballs, etc. We are all good, but the Anylosaurus could be interesting against some creatures. Hade with the Stone giants and demons we met recently who all have a high fortitue save! Dire tigers with smite evil has done the thing quite good!