New monetary system for PF2


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Liberty's Edge

PF2 should move to a far more sensible yam-based economy.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
dunelord3001 wrote:
Shadrayl of the Mountain wrote:
I'd personally love to see the economy change so that WBL isn't really much of a thing anymore. Magic items as clearly priced commodities really kills the fantasy for me.
And instantly makes every human in the game so unbelievable that I can't even play it. People are willing to put a price on everything, and anything that can be made by humans is going to have a market value.

That's not a hard problem to get around. And also, why are +x swords worth so much to anyone but adventurers? The only reason adventurers can get the money to buy their high-level gear is by selling the loot they don't need, which is kind of a tautology. It's just weird in ways I really don't like, while also closing off a lot of story possibilities unnecessarily.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Drakhan Valane wrote:
PF2 should move to a far more sensible yam-based economy.

NO! Beets or I'm never buying another Paizo product again!

Liberty's Edge

Shadrayl of the Mountain wrote:
Drakhan Valane wrote:
PF2 should move to a far more sensible yam-based economy.
NO! Beets or I'm never buying another Paizo product again!

Why would you fill your yam house with beets?


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kyrt-ryder wrote:
Having tools to survive is fantastic. Needing wealth to have those tools is not.

Bah! You don't need wealth to get the tools to survive. You take those tools from the next corpse you make! No two ways to slice it (though I recommend you make those slices deep) the economy will be based on killing. And what's not to love about killing? It makes you stronger, wealthier, greater in those who fear you and less in those you dislike. Now if you'll excuse me I have some power and wealth to gain. Oh boy, here I go killin' again.


kyrt-ryder wrote:


Quote:
Some of the things I have seen you disparage are the very things I play this game for, so it can be a bit jarring at times.
You've piqued my curiosity here. Which things in particular?

Classes and magic items are the main ones. There are couple of largely inconsequential bits that escape me at the moment, probably something to do with paladins - they are usually a source of disagreement :) (IIRC you want unlocked alignment for paladins, right?)


i can say i had a 2e character with a 25 in thier primary attribute, a 22 each in 2 secondary attributes and the rest at 19 each by level 8 because published AD&D and BECMI modules are literally loaded with permanent stat boosts as adventure rewards like they were candy and didn't need wishes or manuals. my starting array was 13, 13, 12, 12, 10, 10.


Ilina Aniri wrote:
i can say i had a 2e character with a 25 in thier primary attribute, a 22 each in 2 secondary attributes and the rest at 19 each by level 8 because published AD&D and BECMI modules are literally loaded with permanent stat boosts as adventure rewards like they were candy and didn't need wishes or manuals. my starting array was 13, 13, 12, 12, 10, 10.

Interesting. I don't remember that, but we didn't actually play a lot of modules, so it's certainly possible they were there, but I just didn't see what the cumulative effect would be.


I am seeing a lot of things that quite frankly I would hate to see implemented. the game has evolved away from some of these things for good reason.

I want a system where I can exchange unwanted magic items for magic items I will use.

I want a system that doesn't degenerate into shopping trips for specific ingredients.

I don't want to go back to spending game time tracking down specific items I want.

I like priced magic items and WBL guidelines. It doesn't need to result in magic shops though. In my games it's a network of merchants and contacts behind the scenes acquiring these rare objects for you. Magic isn't that common, but it is acquirable, I'm not going to waste ingame time shopping though so it all happens off screen and the net result is you sell your unwanted gear and acquire the gear you want.

And for the older players that say "I want magic items to be special once again" they never really were. That was just your local play style. It was not universal. I know, I was there too. It can easily be replicated by the GM restricting availability of magic items and the players being dependent on what the GM decides is available.


I like magic items as rewards, gifts, and items to be gained by quests. I am fine with magic shops that sell potions, low level scrolls, and maybe even used wands. But I rarely have shops selling anything else except under special circumstances.


dragonhunterq wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:


Quote:
Some of the things I have seen you disparage are the very things I play this game for, so it can be a bit jarring at times.
You've piqued my curiosity here. Which things in particular?
Classes

Guilty. I do retain classes but I'm about as close as one can get to classless without truly embracing the concept. Essentially I run on a superior variation on the 'Generic Classes' of 3.5's Unearthed Arcana

Quote:
and magic items are the main ones.

I find myself wondering if I've somehow managed to misrepresent myself on this one.

I'm all about helping my players realize their vision for a character. If that means a treadmill of better and better pieces of 'Superior Equipment' leaving the rest in the dust, that's totally doable. Typically by forsaking old gear from their levels to acquire new gear. It's also plausible they could invest some of their level power into some sort of crafting or lucky acquisitions ability to be able to produce their own expendable magic items at a higher rate than others gain them, ensuring that the treadmill keeps flowing and they gain gear to replace depleted gear.

When I said that I have had level 20 characters without any permanent Superior Gear, I wasn't saying that nobody gets it, only that the power comes out of the character rather than a separate wealth budget, thus someone who doesn't WANT to have magical bling doesn't have to have it to compete. They simply use their power in other ways.

Quote:
you want unlocked alignment for paladins, right?)

Frankly I'd prefer the current incarnation of Paladin was Neutral Good to be honest. Lawful has wayyy too much baggage for my vision of the Paladin.

I despise the abilities that the Paladin class has being restricted to Paladins, that's a solid chassis that's far too limited in PF1. Some other construct built on that chassis [without the awkwardness of the Antipaladin] should be available for any alignment.

On the subject of alignment, I really, really hate the use of it to restrict characters. Alignment is fantastic as a way to describe a character, fairly good as a targeting component for various abilities and terrible for telling players how to play their characters.


kyrt-ryder wrote:


Quote:
and magic items are the main ones.

I find myself wondering if I've somehow managed to misrepresent myself on this one.

I'm all about helping my players realize their vision for a character. If that means a treadmill of better and better pieces of 'Superior Equipment' leaving the rest in the dust, that's totally doable. Typically by forsaking old gear from their levels to acquire new gear. It's also plausible they could invest some of their level power into some sort of crafting or lucky acquisitions ability to be able to produce their own expendable magic items at a higher rate than others gain them, ensuring that the treadmill keeps flowing and they gain gear to replace depleted gear.

When I said that I have had level 20 characters without any permanent Superior Gear, I wasn't saying that nobody gets it, only that the power comes out of the character rather than a separate wealth budget, thus someone who doesn't WANT to have magical bling doesn't have to have it to compete. They simply use their power in other ways.

It's more getting rid of the WBL/value of magic items. I find it a very useful tool and a huge step forward from AD&D (not that it couldn't use some refinement, because it almost certainly could). I have neither the time or the inclination (or the skills) to re-instate it if they take what I see as a step backwards. Now if you replace it with something that does the job better, that I could possibly get behind it (although I do enjoy the acquiring of better stuff, so it has an uphill struggle), but everything I have read (not just from you) says simply "get rid of it".

Quote:
Quote:
you want unlocked alignment for paladins, right?)

Frankly I'd prefer the current incarnation of Paladin was Neutral Good to be honest. Lawful has wayyy too much baggage for my vision of the Paladin.

I don't see that lawful has that much baggage, to me it is core to the concept, but I suspect that may be a result of ...

Quote:
On the subject of alignment, I really, really hate the use of it to restrict characters. Alignment is fantastic as a way to describe a character, fairly good as a targeting component for various abilities and terrible for telling players how to play their characters.

Alignment is a great tool, but it should be little more than a guideline. Then again I have never played in a game where alignment was used to browbeat players into acting a certain way. I think alignment needs to be seen in a much less restricted way in general than you see on the boards. I suspect it actually is.

While characters shouldn't be so restricted I really do think some classes should be. Nor do I have a problem with some, even most, abilities being class locked.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber

Wow! Lot of AD&D2e talk here! I still vividly remember my first character, Elfteiroh, an half-elf/half aquatic elf ranger that got to lvl 6 after more than a year of adventuring. Then I got my first magic item, a +2 sword. I was one of the stronger character of the group, with a STR of 18(35%) and a DEX of 16. :3
The fact that creating a magic item always cost a permanent point of CON from the Wizard, a class that usually have a low CON score by default... These were supposed to be rare! I like that, and that was one reason I hated D&D3e. Pathfinder had such a great world that it bought peace with me. My characters still rarely use magic items, unless they are really important or interesting.


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Elfteiroh wrote:

Wow! Lot of AD&D2e talk here! I still vividly remember my first character, Elfteiroh, an half-elf/half aquatic elf ranger that got to lvl 6 after more than a year of adventuring. Then I got my first magic item, a +2 sword. I was one of the stronger character of the group, with a STR of 18(35%) and a DEX of 16. :3

The fact that creating a magic item always cost a permanent point of CON from the Wizard, a class that usually have a low CON score by default... These were supposed to be rare! I like that, and that was one reason I hated D&D3e. Pathfinder had such a great world that it bought peace with me. My characters still rarely use magic items, unless they are really important or interesting.

Nice nostalgia, but I invite you to sit down and a read an AD&D module. Or two. Or all of them. Guess what? Progressively stronger magic items (by the cartload) are baked right into the game. Like it was intended. And keep in mind because D&D has always revolved around the "killing economy" any magic items high level enemies have will very soon become the PCs. This is important, because it deeply strains verisimilitude for important enemies living in a world with magic to have no magic items. In fact, any magic item system besides Magical Christmas Tree is going to strain credibility of a given setting. Between two equally skilled people, the one who is better equipped should have better chance of winning *any* contest. Better equipment can and *should* even be able to close the gap between a less skilled competitor and more skilled one. If this was not the case, then what would be the point of making equipment in the first place?

Stories (books, movies, etc.) tend to want to us to believe the opposite because people tend to want to be the punchy underdog with worn-out equipment, relying on old methods and hard work to win. But the opposite is true in reality. A better equipped and better funded competitor using cutting edge techniques is going to have a significant advantage assuming they work equally hard. That's literally the whole point of progress!

In line with the above, it's important to remember that you aren't reading a novel or watching a film. You sat down to play a *game*. A game that has it's characters grow stronger and stronger at set intervals (ie. levels). A game that gives players new more powerful options as they increase in level. And part of that growth is your magical items. Getting new and better equipment is exact same kind of fun as gaining levels. It's the drive to increase your character's power and ability that makes RPGs (whether tabletop, MMO, J, or A) fun. Taking out the "christmas tree" effect is missing out on a huge part of the RPG fun.


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I dunno Anzyr. As a player (I still remember, though the memory is getting a bit weak) I HAYE the gear treadmill.

I want my character to directly embody most of his power and any extraneous powers to be few in number and ideally grow with the character.

Christmas tree isn't fun to me personally, especially if you have to tear it down and build a new one multiple times during a character's career.

Granted my extensive houserules support that style.


Elfteiroh wrote:

Wow! Lot of AD&D2e talk here! I still vividly remember my first character, Elfteiroh, an half-elf/half aquatic elf ranger that got to lvl 6 after more than a year of adventuring. Then I got my first magic item, a +2 sword. I was one of the stronger character of the group, with a STR of 18(35%) and a DEX of 16. :3

The fact that creating a magic item always cost a permanent point of CON from the Wizard, a class that usually have a low CON score by default... These were supposed to be rare! I like that, and that was one reason I hated D&D3e. Pathfinder had such a great world that it bought peace with me. My characters still rarely use magic items, unless they are really important or interesting.

You and I had very different experiences of AD&D. Just saying.

kyrt-rider wrote:
As a player (I still remember, though the memory is getting a bit weak) I HAYE the gear treadmill.

For it to have affected you so deeply, was it a big part of your local groups style? were you always struggling to keep up, or was there a glut? - just curious.


It's just not part of the narrative I am in role-playing for.

I want personal growth (both in terms of Character development and personal power), not piling bling on to do the heavy lifting.

A few key pieces of iconic gear is great for many characters, for others they just wield the ordinary wood and iron spear their father left behind.

The Exchange

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I too would like a silver based economy and also include electrum (silver & gold mixture) coins in also. Gold and platinum should be more valuable. We make more money now than our parents did in the 70's even though the spending power of our dollar has diminished quite a bit. People look at millionaires as the floor for being very wealthy so when you offer them 200 gold for a quest in PF1 or D&D 5E they end up laughing because it won't even cover their initial gear expenses for outfitting more than a few characters. This way if you offer 200 gold it is a serious offer that people can grasp. They can easily carry this treasure and when players walk into an establishment with a platinum piece the owners will know these PC's are high rollers.


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thejeff wrote:
Ilina Aniri wrote:
i can say i had a 2e character with a 25 in thier primary attribute, a 22 each in 2 secondary attributes and the rest at 19 each by level 8 because published AD&D and BECMI modules are literally loaded with permanent stat boosts as adventure rewards like they were candy and didn't need wishes or manuals. my starting array was 13, 13, 12, 12, 10, 10.
Interesting. I don't remember that, but we didn't actually play a lot of modules, so it's certainly possible they were there, but I just didn't see what the cumulative effect would be.

AD&D and BECMI modules were literally flooded with permanent stat boosts but also had permanent stat loss in similarly large amounts as well.


Talek & Luna wrote:
I too would like a silver based economy and also include electrum (silver & gold mixture) coins in also. Gold and platinum should be more valuable. We make more money now than our parents did in the 70's even though the spending power of our dollar has diminished quite a bit. People look at millionaires as the floor for being very wealthy so when you offer them 200 gold for a quest in PF1 or D&D 5E they end up laughing because it won't even cover their initial gear expenses for outfitting more than a few characters. This way if you offer 200 gold it is a serious offer that people can grasp. They can easily carry this treasure and when players walk into an establishment with a platinum piece the owners will know these PC's are high rollers.

I agree (and nice that we are back in the original subject)

The only game I have played with reasonable value for gold is MERP and there you really felt rich if you had only a handful of gold. Btw with that in mind I lost it when I saw the size of that golden statue in the Hobbit movie. I calculated that it would contain almost all the gold ever excavated in real world. The amounts of gold in D&D and Pathfinder are just silly compared to that. Why does gold have any value in these games if it is so common?


I prefer a silver-based economy, though it rarely matters for very many levels. I also like to refer to the pound as a unit of currency, which in the old days was worth a pound of silver. A gold florin is worth a pound, so you can have a silver-based economy and use gold coins to buy anything measured in pounds.


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Earl Grey wrote:

The only game I have played with reasonable value for gold is MERP and there you really felt rich if you had only a handful of gold. Btw with that in mind I lost it when I saw the size of that golden statue in the Hobbit movie. I calculated that it would contain almost all the gold ever excavated in real world. The amounts of gold in D&D and Pathfinder are just silly compared to that. Why does gold have any value in these games if it is so common?

That really was a stupidly huge amount of gold in that movie. But this seems to be a common trope in fantasy art and movies and such. The room full of gold that stretches on beyond your view. It does make it's way into RPGs, although in much more reasonable amounts (for the setting at least). And then there are those huge D&D Gems, where they're described as the size of your fist and worth 200 gp.

One explanation I've heard for the massive treasure troves is access to the elemental plane of earth where there are massive amounts of gold and gems.

Liberty's Edge

I love this idea, get rid or Copper, Electrum, Silver and Platinum. Straight gold hommie!


Tree leaves is the new economy. However, every fall we experience inflation on a massive scale.

To fix this problem, we're cutting down all of the trees.


Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook Subscriber
Anzyr wrote:
Elfteiroh wrote:

Wow! Lot of AD&D2e talk here! I still vividly remember my first character, Elfteiroh, an half-elf/half aquatic elf ranger that got to lvl 6 after more than a year of adventuring. Then I got my first magic item, a +2 sword. I was one of the stronger character of the group, with a STR of 18(35%) and a DEX of 16. :3

The fact that creating a magic item always cost a permanent point of CON from the Wizard, a class that usually have a low CON score by default... These were supposed to be rare! I like that, and that was one reason I hated D&D3e. Pathfinder had such a great world that it bought peace with me. My characters still rarely use magic items, unless they are really important or interesting.

Nice nostalgia, but I invite you to sit down and a read an AD&D module. Or two. Or all of them. Guess what? Progressively stronger magic items (by the cartload) are baked right into the game. Like it was intended. And keep in mind because D&D has always revolved around the "killing economy" any magic items high level enemies have will very soon become the PCs. This is important, because it deeply strains verisimilitude for important enemies living in a world with magic to have no magic items. In fact, any magic item system besides Magical Christmas Tree is going to strain credibility of a given setting. Between two equally skilled people, the one who is better equipped should have better chance of winning *any* contest. Better equipment can and *should* even be able to close the gap between a less skilled competitor and more skilled one. If this was not the case, then what would be the point of making equipment in the first place?

Stories (books, movies, etc.) tend to want to us to believe the opposite because people tend to want to be the punchy underdog with worn-out equipment, relying on old methods and hard work to win. But the opposite is true in reality. A better equipped and better funded competitor using cutting edge techniques is going to have a significant advantage assuming...

Well, the core books was proposing a very "low magic" world, and that extended to the items. It may have helped that the basic world was Greyhawk. I never played Forgotten Realm in 2nd, and never played an official module, so that would have helped. And I only DMed in my own custom world. With only the core books, the advanced classes books and the various monster manuals. Never felt like I needed more than that. We also never got better stats. Ever. That was a very big shift for me when I got to play Pathfinder. But oh well.

I'll just add that most of the time, in Pathfinder, my players ended up trading unwanted magic items for others of about equal values instead of buying them (because there is not that many on sales as I see it, and it's easier to find rich collectors willing to trade that people that actually sell them).

dragonhunterq wrote:
Elfteiroh wrote:
[...]

You and I had very different experiences of AD&D. Just saying.

[...]

As I see. :3


As for the amount of gold without knowing the world population, the amount of gold mined, and a 100 other things it is all whatever. I do wish if nothing else they'd lover everything magic item and XP to a tenth of what it is. It just makes the math needlessly big.


I only want the 1:100 scale.
Mostly because everyone always trips on the 1:10 scale the moment they want to exchange different coins because nobody remembers the 1:10 scale.


Envall wrote:

I only want the 1:100 scale.

Mostly because everyone always trips on the 1:10 scale the moment they want to exchange different coins because nobody remembers the 1:10 scale.

I'm not talking about the copper to silver to gold to platinum rate, I'm saying just the base price in what is currently gold. Move all the prices to 10% of what they currently are, so a +1 weapon is 200 gold instead of 2000.


Also, 2nd was just horrible to try to explain to new people.
"What can I do with all this gold?"
"Build a keep!"
"I don't want a keep."
"So... why is my character here?"


I ditched official prices and economy anyway for my games.
Damned by the balance.

TBH next time in my game magical thingeys will be much rarer, more dangerous, and rarely bought in any shops, and even artificer wizards won't be able to produce a lot of them.


unholy wounding adamantine flaming +5 greataxe should not be worth more than a kingdom

but to make one you'd need elementalist wizard and evil cleric crafting together for 3 months

so it's just to pay them thrice the three month payment for a court magic user, but that's it

Liberty's Edge

Wicked Woodpecker of the West wrote:
unholy wounding adamantine flaming +5 greataxe should not be worth more than a kingdom

200,000 GP is a lot of money, but not more than a kingdom. Not even close. 1 Build Point is 4,000 gp, and most 'kingdoms' start with 50 BP minimum. So it's precisely enough to start a kingdom, but only in the Kingmaker 'this kingdom is tiny and probably has one village' sense. And selling it would only get you half that. Which is still substantial, but building a fort costs 24 Build Points and a Castle costs 54 BP. So it's worth one expensive building, not a kingdom.


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That doesn't even make sense. You could hire skilled labor to construct that tiny village, buy the land and pay any government employees a lifetime salary on 10,000 gold or less.

Bear in mind in practice you would at most hire one skilled foreman to manage grunt labor and would not pay the government employees more than one year at a time.


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My above post (based on the post of Deadmanwalking) leads me to query:

Is Kingmaker inflated for the sake of the ridiculous scaling of PC wealth?

I would posit the answer is yes.


Deadmanwalking wrote:
Wicked Woodpecker of the West wrote:
unholy wounding adamantine flaming +5 greataxe should not be worth more than a kingdom
200,000 GP is a lot of money, but not more than a kingdom. Not even close. 1 Build Point is 4,000 gp, and most 'kingdoms' start with 50 BP minimum. So it's precisely enough to start a kingdom, but only in the Kingmaker 'this kingdom is tiny and probably has one village' sense. And selling it would only get you half that. Which is still substantial, but building a fort costs 24 Build Points and a Castle costs 54 BP. So it's worth one expensive building, not a kingdom.

I a starting kingdom (size 1-25) 1 BP is 1000gp so you can get a lot more with 200 000gp.

http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/ultimateCampaign/kingdomsAndWar/kingdomB uilding.html#starting-from-scratch

Liberty's Edge

Fair enough, assuming you can convert the GP to BP (which is not a given), and are doing it yourself without a sponsor. So it's the price of a whole village including a castle. Still not 'more than a kingdom'. Or even close, really.


kyrt-ryder wrote:

That doesn't even make sense. You could hire skilled labor to construct that tiny village, buy the land and pay any government employees a lifetime salary on 10,000 gold or less.

Bear in mind in practice you would at most hire one skilled foreman to manage grunt labor and would not pay the government employees more than one year at a time.

You don't actually get a lot of building done with 1 skilled person and a bunch of grunts.

Maybe one skilled manager and a bunch of skilled carpenters, stonemasons, etc, etc.

Unless you're building hovels, I suppose. In which case sure, a magic item is worth more than a squalid tiny village.

Quote:

'A corslet of Moria-silver? That was a kingly gift!'

'Yes,' said Gandalf. 'I never told him, but its worth was greater than the value of the whole Shire and everything in it.'

Grand Lodge

thejeff wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

That doesn't even make sense. You could hire skilled labor to construct that tiny village, buy the land and pay any government employees a lifetime salary on 10,000 gold or less.

Bear in mind in practice you would at most hire one skilled foreman to manage grunt labor and would not pay the government employees more than one year at a time.

You don't actually get a lot of building done with 1 skilled person and a bunch of grunts.

Maybe one skilled manager and a bunch of skilled carpenters, stonemasons, etc, etc.

Unless you're building hovels, I suppose. In which case sure, a magic item is worth more than a squalid tiny village.

Quote:

'A corslet of Moria-silver? That was a kingly gift!'

'Yes,' said Gandalf. 'I never told him, but its worth was greater than the value of the whole Shire and everything in it.'

Or get a talented bard with a Lyre of Building. ;-)

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