Asmodeus' Advocate wrote:
My personal advice to improve the situation would be for Balkoth to you know.... play Pathfinder. Crazy suggestion, I know, but I felt someone had to make it.
Look, according to RAW, casting Animate Dead (and other undead raising necromancy) is an Evil act. But... that just means you need to cast some [Good] spells so you can be good. This actually works out in the favor of a good guy necromancer as it lets you be whatever alignment you want by playing alignment hopscotch via spells. So RAW, yes a Necromancer who raises an undead horde can be a paragon of Good just by casting some [Good] spells. Problem solved!
Of course if you want to create Undead horde without it being evil you can take the Wretched Curator feat and complete it's goal. Doing so lets you straight up remove the [Evil] descriptor from spells.
My brother says that a rogue, barbarian build done right is the most broken build out there is he right?
My brother and i like to spend time researching rules and builds and what not. He says he found a way to make a near godlike build by combinding rogue and barbarian classes together and that its the most broken build out there. Hes a try hard who likes to break everything so i can see him being right about it being broken but is it the MOST broken build out there?
It's not a full caster so it's not even in the consideration for "powerful" let alone most powerful. Furthermore, Rogue is a contender for worst class in the game. Honestly, outside a few corner cases, multiclassing or prestige classing in PF is a surefire way to lose power. It sounds like he does not really understand Pathfinder optimization. I would direct him to these forums and have him review some of the discussions on this board regarding the most powerful classes.
Have you considered just playing the most versatile spellcaster in the game, namely a half-elf Razmiran Priest Sorcerer? Since you will be starting at 10th level, you will have access to Razmiran Channel, which allows you to cast divine spells froum a scroll without expending it by using a spell slot 1 level higher. Combine whatever divine spells you want to buy scrolls for, with the additional spells known granted by the Human Favored Class bonus, with the ability to cast paragon surge and select Expanded Arcana and gain access to any spell off the Sorcerer/Wizard list (or two lower leveled ones).
And of course you can combine Mnemonic Vestments with scrolls for another spell. Your spell list is essentially the entire Sorcerer/Wizard list, along with all 8th level or lower divine spells that you care to use. Should be versatile enough for your needs. And that's without all the really fun uses for Razmiran Channel, like using the lower level versions of divine spells or getting free uses of scrolls with expensive material components.
The Nature Mystery capstone can make you into an animal and thus a valid target for the Awaken spell. Normally, Awaken making the target a magical beast prevents it from being used on the same creature again, however the Nature Mystery capstone can turn you back into an animal, and thus a valid target for Awaken again. Repeat until your stats are:
Initiative - Goes First
Sorry, the forum gotten eaten so I just saw this now. The actual way to easily cast Awaken once you hit 2 INT is to make it a Contingency. Now, I suspect the follow up question is "How does a Nature Oracle cast Contingency?" There's a lot of ways to cast it, but the easiest at Oracle level 20 is to just duplicate Contingency with Miracle.
Nice nostalgia, but I invite you to sit down and a read an AD&D module. Or two. Or all of them. Guess what? Progressively stronger magic items (by the cartload) are baked right into the game. Like it was intended. And keep in mind because D&D has always revolved around the "killing economy" any magic items high level enemies have will very soon become the PCs. This is important, because it deeply strains verisimilitude for important enemies living in a world with magic to have no magic items. In fact, any magic item system besides Magical Christmas Tree is going to strain credibility of a given setting. Between two equally skilled people, the one who is better equipped should have better chance of winning *any* contest. Better equipment can and *should* even be able to close the gap between a less skilled competitor and more skilled one. If this was not the case, then what would be the point of making equipment in the first place?
Stories (books, movies, etc.) tend to want to us to believe the opposite because people tend to want to be the punchy underdog with worn-out equipment, relying on old methods and hard work to win. But the opposite is true in reality. A better equipped and better funded competitor using cutting edge techniques is going to have a significant advantage assuming they work equally hard. That's literally the whole point of progress!
In line with the above, it's important to remember that you aren't reading a novel or watching a film. You sat down to play a *game*. A game that has it's characters grow stronger and stronger at set intervals (ie. levels). A game that gives players new more powerful options as they increase in level. And part of that growth is your magical items. Getting new and better equipment is exact same kind of fun as gaining levels. It's the drive to increase your character's power and ability that makes RPGs (whether tabletop, MMO, J, or A) fun. Taking out the "christmas tree" effect is missing out on a huge part of the RPG fun.
Having tools to survive is fantastic. Needing wealth to have those tools is not.
Bah! You don't need wealth to get the tools to survive. You take those tools from the next corpse you make! No two ways to slice it (though I recommend you make those slices deep) the economy will be based on killing. And what's not to love about killing? It makes you stronger, wealthier, greater in those who fear you and less in those you dislike. Now if you'll excuse me I have some power and wealth to gain. Oh boy, here I go killin' again.
100% true. All the Barbarian is contributing is damage. If the Barbarian had been a partial or full caster, the party would undoubtedly be significantly more effective.
nicholas storm wrote:
True Seeing is pretty irrelevant to the discussion. Spell resistance is at best a joke and at worse something that requires the use of a conjuration spell. And at the end of the day, over 300 HD of undead* will deal more damage than any Martial. There is no scenario where the martial comes out ahead short of GM fiat.
*Or whichever long duration minion you prefer. If you go with Animated Objects make sure you use a solar to make the Permanency free.
nicholas storm wrote:
It is impossible* for Martials to kill faster than Casters. At best, a martial character can defeat a one enemy as a standard action**. A caster can defeat all of the enemies with a Swift Action***.
*Impossible here assumes that the caster possess middling amount of system mastery. Knowledge of metamagic and AoE spells is not a high bar to clear.
**Some exceptions apply, but these are corner cases at best that require extremely specific scenarios and even in those scenarios the caster could do the same thing but faster (see below).
***Quicken Rods are a hell of a drug. Also, while it may not always be literally all the enemies, the mere fact that it *CAN* be all the enemies without reaching for corner cases is enough to convey the point adequately.
All you need to be overpowered with a caster is the CRB and if you want to get technical the Bestiary I guess.
All the really broken stuff is Core. Permanent minions are available in Core with Animate Dead/Animate Object+Permanency. The minion calling spells are also Core with the Planar Binding and Gate being the gold standard. The best buffs and debuffs are again Core. Stuff like Haste, Contingency, Time Stop, Mage's Disjunction. Spells that replace or obsolete skills are also Core. Easy methods to avoid dying when killed starting with Magic Jar (Potentially replaceable by the Possession line), Clone and Astral Projection. Simulacrum is of course (you guessed it) Core. So... somewhere between free to $50 for a brand new hardcover and you will have 90% of the best stuff a caster can have.
Anything after Core is baby steps up in power. sure Blood Money is probably worth dropping the cash on Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition even though it's going to rack up another $42-60. And Aroden's Spellbane which will add on another $12-20, but is well worth it. After that Ultimate Magic for the Demiplane line would be good, but that's really pure luxury at $10-50. The biggest expense for casters is going to be Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition, but Blood Money is really strong enough to justify being worth it. But, just CRB + Bestiary + Inner Sea Magic + Ultimate Magic is comfortably under $50 if you use the PDFs.
Ryan Freire wrote:
I mean, can we get a similar writeup of how much it costs to have the hard copies of all the books with all the different spells and magic items and archetypes an optimized caster gets?
Spell are a very small expenditure for a highly optimized caster. Mind you this is old and there would be a few additional spells added now, but the cost to add all the really relevant spells since then is not going to be terribly much more. A whopping 21,305 gold gets you a very impressive selection of spells. Adding in the costs of both the Blessed Books (crafted at half price of course) makes that 33,805 gp.
Spells Known (Level Up): Starting Spell Book (Up to 6th level) (Also in both Blessed Books)
1st: Anticipate Peril, Snow Ball, Ear-Piercing Scream, Blood Money, Blood Rage, Alarm, Heighten Awareness,
3rd—fireball, lightning bolt
2nd—acid arrow, darkness, ghoul touch, gust of wind
1st—burning hands, color spray, corrosive touch, hydraulic push, hypnotism, magic missile, ray of enfeeblement,
Tome of the Transmuter (2,635) (Also in both Blessed Books)
4th—beast shape II, calcific touch, confusion, dimension door, stone shape
3rd—arcane sight, dispel magic, explosive runes, lightning bolt, greater magic weapon, slow
2nd—alter self, flaming sphere, knock, pyrotechnics, resist energy, see invisibility, whispering wind
1st—animate rope, charm person, color spray, erase, floating disk, mage armor, magic missile, protection from chaos,
0—standard plus drench, spark
Blessed Book(s): All Above, in addition to:
1st (100 GP): Air Bubble, Identify, Grease, Obscuring Mist, Mount, Summoner Monster I, Comprehend Langauges,
2nd (500 GP): Arcane Lock, Protection from Arrows, Glitterdust, Stone Call, Detect Thoughts, Locate Object,
3rd (1035 GP): Magic Circle Against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Nondetection, Protection from Energy, Aqueous Orb,
4th (1040 GP): Dimensional Anchor, Stoneskin, Solid Fog, Scrying, Locate Creature, Charm Monster, Terrible Remorse,
5th (2125 GP): Mage's Private Sanctum, Siphon Magic, Cloudkill, Lesser Planar Binding, Contact Other Plane,
6th (1620 GP): Greater Heroism, Symbol of Persuasion, Chain Lightning, Contingency, Symbol of Fear, Flesh to Stone
7th (3610 GP): Spell Turning, Plane Shift, Greater Arcane Sight, Greater Scrying, Vision, Symbol of Stunning,
8th (2880 GP): Mind Blank, Protection from Spells, Trap the Soul, Discern Location, Moment of Prescience,
9th (4860 GP): Symbol of Vulnerability, Summoner Monster IX, Teleportation Circle, Foresight, Winds of Vengeance,
This has been bugging me for a while but why do so many forum folks believe that casters need gold less than martial characters? The only big item martial characters need that casters don't is their weapon. So yeah. Why?
Well for starters you need a Caster Level to take crafting feats. With Craft Wondrous Item this means majority of the money Casters are going to spend on magic items is essentially doubled. While yes, the Master Craftsman Feat exists, it's a much weaker version of what casters get for the same investment. Even following the Ultimate Campaign rules, with access to two crafting feats (one of which Wizards get for free at 1st level) casters will have at least 25% more Wealth then martials.
That's just the start though. Now we have to factor in the fact that well... casters can cast their own spells. If a caster wants to Fly, they can just *cast* a spell to get them flight. A Martial is going to need to spend money to do that. A caster can magically augment their defenses. A martial is going to need to spend money to do that. A caster can cast spells that dramatically enhance or completely obviate skills. A martial has to pay for that. Each of these payments further siphons money from a martial.
The fact that a magic weapon is literally the most expensive of the big six to acquire is honestly small potatoes after the above. That being said, a +10 magic weapon is still a huge expenditure, being just under 1/4th of 20th level WBL. So in addition to all the extra gold Martials have to spend due to the above, the fact that they have to buy a magic weapon widens that gap by another ~25%.
Add that all up and you have a *massive* (~50% + any of the costs in point 2) difference in wealth at best.
Look we already had this contest. Schrodinger's Fighter never showed up. So you are right there is no debate. In practice and theory, Wizards have this. The fact that you believe grappling, stuns and blinds would even affect a caster shows a severe lack of understanding of a caster's power. For consideration:
Immune: Magic Sleep, Fear, ability damage, acid, blindness, critcal hits, charm and compulsion effects, deafness, death effects, disease, drowning, electricity, fire, acid, cold, petrification, poison, stunning, all spells or attacks that affect your physiology or respiration; Resist cold 30, electricity 30; SR 32
Is pretty basic. (And yes that's both Immune to and Resist 30 cold and electricity. Not a typo.) Factor in the obvious Freedom of Movement and literally everything you suggested would be completely useless.
Actually you should be getting experience for overcoming challenges regardless of whether or not you fight those challenges. If diplomacy allows you avoid multiple CR X encounters, you should be getting the experience for all of those encounters. If you can defeat the bad guys without killing them you still get the same experience points as you would for killing them. Assuming your DM is correctly applying experience for overcoming challenges and using medium progression, you should be leveling up fairly swiftly.
Divine Magic wrote:
Leave open spell slots.Spirit Talker -> Arcane Enlightenment
Prepare the chosen spell slots in 15 minutes.
Cast them within the remaining 45 minutes.
Obviously this works best with long duration buffs and down time spells.
my dm is adamant that my character does not have any magical items at all or any items with special qualities. so that leaves my PC walking around with a horde of money items (things like gems and plat and the like to reduce the weight) equaling 16k in gold. my Pc is a witch and i just so happen to not have a high STR but i do have a spell secret coffer other wise my PC would have lost all its wealth even before starting.
Take Craft Wondrous Item as your 3rd level feat and say you created all your magic items. Bonus points since as a Witch most of your items are going to be wondrous items, they are going to be counted at cost not price (so half off in most cases). Of course you will need to have a discussion with your GM, because they are absolutely wrong about Pathfinder's magic item expectations. 6th level characters are expected to have all of the "Big Six" magic items by level 6, hence the 16,000 GP Wealth by Level. Explain to your GM that Pathfinder assumes player have access to magic items and monster are given their respective CR with the expectation players are keeping up in terms of magic items. Point out the how readily available the rules assume magic items are in settlements. Or direct your GM here. *glances at avatar* Not all of us bite.
Since it all happens as part of the same round you could choose to describe it as looking around while walking and I would be OK with that. I personally picture 30 ft. Move + Perception Check like trained room clearing, which fits well with my groups preferred SWAT style adventuring.
Why are the notches meaningless? I mean sure if the DM just threw Cthulhu at the players as a ball of numbers, then ya that's pretty meaningless. But even if Cthulhu is run properly, it's still plenty beatable by high level adventurers. At high levels, Cthulhu is exactly the sort of thing adventurers take one look at, roll their shoulders, and then get to the punching out Cthulhu.
Fly you fools!
If this is a new GM explain that you do not enjoy this kind of game and maybe recommend they try GMing an adventurer path first or something. If they are an "experienced GM" you can try and have the same talk, but more likely will end up having to walk. Don't force yourself to play a game of Pathfinder you don't enjoy. No Pathfinder is better than bad Pathfinder.
I'm Hiding In Your Closet wrote:
Creativity for creativity's sake gets you Star Fox Zero. Guides are always a good resource, since even if the guide writer missed an option or perhaps did not rate something correctly, there are always others who can point out missed options and give feedback on ratings. The simple truth is that in Pathfinder the overwhelming majority of options are trap options. Having guides that can help players avoid trap options helps to promote meaningful choices. You are entitled to your opinion of course, but is Star Fox Zero really what you want?
And I'm of the informed opinion that you did not read Heighten Spell. My opinion qualifies as informed because your post appears to completely misstate how Heighten Spell works resulting in an interpretation that defies the very point of the feat.
Heighten Spell wrote:
Therefore, you are only applying Heighten Spell to Mount once, with the level increase being + an amount to make the spell equal to spell of it's effective level. So if you wish to cast a Mount Spell Heightened to be a 9th level spell, the Level increase would be +8.
It literally is cheating if you do not inform the players of it. If you think otherwise, reread the MIR. If people who break the MIR do not want to be called cheaters, my advice is stop cheating.
How would you know? You haven't asked them after all. Go on and tell them and get back to me. And your accusation of "one true way" is completely baseless. I and others who share my position have explained numerous times that other ways are fine so long as (and this is important) you tell the players and they agree to it.
I think you need to reread the most important rule (MIR) then, because fudging is certainly changing the rules. The GM does not determine if each attack hits or not. That's not how the rules work. There are rules for hitting a target and it is not "The GM determines it." The MIR only allows you to do that if it the other players agree with it and since you are the one making the change it is your responsibility to ask the other players. If you change the rules without the other players agreeing to them, you are violating their trust. If you say "I am playing Pathfinder.", but then allow the GM rather than the dice to determine what hits, you are not actually playing Pathfinder and have betrayed the expectations of the players who expected to play Pathfinder. That being said, I agree the players should make that clear but if you do not tell them and get called out on it, you should change.
1. If it would be appropriate yes. I do not run modules though so /disclaimer there.
2. My settings take these issues into account and it is easier than you would think. Many organizations have people in higher positions that can do X thing better than someone in a lower position (and maybe were promoted because of their skill at X), but it would a poor use of the superior's time to go handle X, when they are busy managing Y. And the big boss, might be better at both X and Y, by they need to worry about Z. This is true in real life and there is no reason it would not be true in games as well. Other reasons exist as well. The traditional "BBEG is sealed somewhere." would justify it as well.
Ryan Freire wrote:
Context always matters. Its just the only context where fudging is not cheating is when the GM has told the players in advance and they've agreed to it.
Ryan Freire wrote:
It is difficult to have common ground when people do not found their arguments in logic and argues against valid definitions. If you wish to find common ground I recommend doing both.
If a spade is offended to be called a spade, the issue lies with the spade.
Yes, that would be a dumb argument. Saying that cheating is in fact cheating however is not. It is pretty much the most basic easy to support arguments possible. Calling "fudging" cheating (when it is) is not hyperbolic, it's not incendiary, and it's not insulting. It is simply a logical statement of fact. And as some of us have heard recently... facts are pretty stubborn things.
First of all, please read more carefully before responding. Your post contains a number of errors regarding the information presented. First of all, Veil of Undeath is a spell, as you would have known had you read my post. The effect of said spell grants a number of undead traits and immunities including immunity to sneak attack (3.5 remember). The Wizard had permanent Arcane Sight and their spellcraft results to identify the school of the magical aura it gave off did indeed indicate Necromancy. After the encounter was over, because the Rogue had complained I showed the NPCs sheet which included both the spell on the NPCs list, it's inclusion in the NPCs stats including that an 8th level spell per day was deducted. So no this situation is not remotely like yours or how you portrayed it in your post.
Presuming you had a cheat that you could show that indicated that the goblin was in fact possessed and the levels/abilities/etc of the possessor after the fight with the goblin, I would have no issue with that. The goblin in your example changes each time so I am doubtful that you have a consistent version, which is important because the version described above would have different things flagged at different points than the other version. And as previously mentioned, AC is very easy to calculate. Particularly post fight when all the items are accounted for. I made no assumptions that your goblin was a CR 1/3 in my example and merely explained that AC can be calcuated and many GM's that think they are good at maintaining the illusion do not actually take into account information that PCs can or should be aware of when they cheat with the numbers.
Lastly, yes I do make my NPCs roll knowledge and spellcraft checks.
Is that not normal? I have been through that in several different RPGs and groups.
It is in fact not normal and is the result of several very bad GMs. It is impossible to "outsmart" an adventure as what choices the players make to overcome an obstacle and how they choose to proceed is literally the whole point of the game. As a GM myself, I would like to extend my deepest sympathies and condolences and I ask that you not let these bad GMs poison your love for the hobby.
Quiche Lisp wrote:
Attempting to copy fantasy stories is a sure-fire way to end up with a bad game. Pathfinder has abilities that hit a large chunk of the story breakers power list and unlike a story does not care about what works best for the narrative. Gandalf and Frodo can be on the same team in a book, because the writer can balance the two characters out without screwing one over since no one is controlling that character. In Pathfinder, Gandalf's player is going to use his high CR celestial powers to just instantly solve any problem more efficiently and easily than Frodo could. It's like stories that pretend "Batman v. Superman" would end in anything other than an overwhelming victory for Superman. They work fine as stories, but poorly for game scenarios.
For fun take any episode of the Flash (literally *any* episode) and see how easily the problem would be solved if Flash was a player character instead of a story character. It would ruin the series because some episodes would literally be only a few minutes long.
If that is a common thing no. If all the other goblins are normal and it's just this one, again YES. And hey if you have the sheet for it, what's the problem? If you don't want to show it after the fight, then yes I am going to judge you to be untrustworthy, because well given the circumstances... you are.
I find the amount of effort some people are putting into an argument that amounts to "People should trust me unconditionally, even when all evidence points to me lying to them." incredibly sad. It's an incredibly narcissistic and unhealthy way to look at things.
Bill Dunn wrote:
Cheating, cheating and cheating.*
That was really easy.
*Unless of course they say "Hey I'm going to X..." in advance of course.
If it was True Strike the players would get a spellcraft check and it would have those damnable "visual effects". Furthermore, if they were under nondetection, it would still need a way to generate those bonuses. IF they came from items then even if they did not detect as magic, a ring or amulet would still be on the body and taken by players. Which should then eventually be detectable as magic and add up to an AC of 25. Maintaining the illusion is virtually impossible against players that actually know the rules.
Bad GMs tend to think they are better at "maintaining the illusion" than they actually are. It's pretty easy to calculate ACs. If that goblin is only wearing studding leather and detect magic turns up no magic items on the corpse, then the players can easily know that the 24 should have hit. Math is neat like that.