Azmur Kell

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I'm not using it as part of my flurry.
But I've seen so many other people say I can use my feet as my iterative attack, and then my claws and bite as secondaries.
Is this not true?


So I'm in the middle of a campaign, and the GM seems to think that, as a Monk, I can't use unarmed strikes and secondary natural attacks all in one round.

I know I've seen people say this is possible, but could someone please link me official stuff that says Monks can use unarmed strike (like their feet) and then their natural attacks as secondary all in one round?

I built my character around this idea knowing it was possible, and now I have claws and a bite I can't use.


Ah righto
Well either way I'm going Monk

Scaled Fist for Unchained seems alright, but I dunno how I feel about using CHA instead of WIS.
If not that, I'll just take unchained Monk. It's all good!


Lizardfolk would be awesome but GM wants me to stick to core races. So Half-Orc is all I got.


I'm going mostly Monk either way. So if MoMS isn't the best option, I'll go either normal monk or a different archetype.
I just was super into the idea of multiple styles active at once. Sounded like a good time.


I was talking about this in another thread and figured it needed its own.

So I'm going in with a Half Orc MoMS Monk. But one thing I wanted to do was half a couple natural attacks that I use as secondary.

With the Tusked trait, Orcs and Half Orcs basically get a bite for free. But I was wondering if peeps know good ways to get claws without dipping heaps into another class or waste a bunch of feats.

So far the best option I've seen is a dip in Style Shifter. Claws at level 1 that count for Unarmed Strike feats, meaning I don't have to spend feats on Weapon Focus or Feral Combat Training, and also I'd get a bonus style feat (which would help MoMS).

Does anyone know of anything other or better methods I might be missing?


All g I may have solved it.
I was looking at playing a MoMS monk.
If I dip a level into Style Shifter, I get a bonus style, and claws that count for Improved Unarmed Strike feats without having to spend 2 feats to get Weapon Focus or Feral Combat Training.


Ok follow up question
As I'm playing core now, are there any ways to get natural attacks without spending heaps of levels in something other than monk?
I want to be able to keep unarmed strike. That way I can use my unarmed attacks as primary, and natural attacks as secondary.
Half-Orcs can get a bite, but is there anyway I can get claws?


Quick update:
GM just told me he only wants core races from here on out.
Welp there goes that idea.


Wouldn't I not get access to a bunch of Monk stuff if I take Menhir Guardian though?
A lot of Monk abilities are dependent on monk weapons or unarmed strikes.


Ah righto, awesome!

I'll have a chat to the GM and hopefully he's chill with that.

Just trying to build a good druid but also not a boring human.

I considered Tengu or Lizardfolk but their natural attacks don't scale up like the unarmed strikes.
Which if you ask me, makes zero sense for Lizardfolk especially.


This has probably been asked about a thousand times, but would a Kasatha monk get four unarmed strikes in a round?

If so, what sort of penalties would they be hit with?

I'm building a new monk and they seem like a fun idea.

Also probs a dumb question but are Kasatha first party?


Ok feat list lets go

Wild Speech
Shaping Focus
Boon Companion
Weapon Focus - Claws
Feral Combat Training - Claws
Dragon Style
Boar Style
Improved Unarmed Strike
Dragon Ferocity

I'm a big idiot that took wild speech instead of natural spell. Don't sweat it though, I'm gonna re-train it.

Fav forms?
I usually got with a dire tiger if we're on land. It isn't super big, but its claw damage is solid, and it gets pounce and rake.

Sometimes we gotta do some stuff in water and I usually stick to a tiger shark or something for that.

I use random other things here and there but usually only for RP stuff or something. I really only stick to 2 for combat.


I'd only be dipping 2 levels into either Barbarian or Bloodrager. I can, for a while, manage without being able to do spells while raging. Especially considering that if I'm raging, it'll be for melee focused stuff.

I just gotta work out which would get me more from 2 levels.
If I went Bloodrager, I'd be probably taking the abyssal bloodline. That sweet "enlarge person" power would make my dire tiger form pretty killer.

Changing alignment might not be an issue tho. Ignoring the alignment issue for now, I just want opinions on what would be better to dip into.

I'm away from my computer at the moment (we play on Roll20) so I can't get my list of feats at the moment. Sorry gang


It would only be Barbarian or Bloodrager.
DM likes to work with the idea that if we didn't have the class to begin with, we have to justify taking it.
So the only reason I get to take a Barbarian dip is because a Barbarian just joined us and he can mentor me.

We also have a sorcerer so I could learn stuff from her and get Bloodrager.

In terms of gaining claws as a natural attack, I tend to stick to forms that already have them. Also next level I'm grabbing mutated shape. So I'll get a gore attack for things that already have claws, and I'll gain claws for things that wouldn't normally have them.

I need claws in Wildshape because I've got feral combat training on claws. MoMS too. Its a good time.

Dreadnaught Barbarian could be interesting. But I'd lose a lot of the other stat and AC bonuses.

Would a dip in Bloodrager be better? Or do I get more out of a dip in Barbarian?


So I'm currently running a Druid 10/Monk 2. Focusing mostly on wild shape. Basically turning into anything with claws and getting them sweet style feets when I'm something like a big dire tiger.

From here on out, there isn't much reason for me to dip into Monk anymore, so straight Druid from here on out is probs the way to go.

However I'm considering a third class. Specifically Barbarian for that sweet sweet rage.
Is this viable? Or is there a better option I'm missing?

Whatever third thing I dip into, it would probs only be max 2 levels.


Nah I think Mammoth Rider is the way to go. Who doesn't love a huge werebear with a huge axe?
If I can justify a fourth class, maybe? But I honestly might dip into Mammoth Rider and then put the rest in Druid. Haven't decided yet tbh.

And I grabbed the robes back when I thought the Monk's unnarmed damage worked with Feral Combat training. Either way though, the robes push my AC something so they're still handy.


Magical Knack is a solid trait to grab though. Every little thing helps.

And Mammoth Rider doesn't add spellcaster levels so its not worth grabbing prestigious spellcaster. All good though!

I'm thiking a dip into Mammoth Rider is the way to go.

Probably not gonna dip into Monk anymore. The biggest thing monk adds is bonuses to AC and Unnarmed Damage and I can increase that with Monk robes and a feat (I forget the name but I'll find it).

I feel any more than 3 classes will screw me over more than it'll help.
But I'll grab Mammoth Rider and get the huge bear (and tbh, probably gonna still cast Anthropomorphic animal on it. Huge Werebear with a huge butchering axe has higher damage and also just sounds freaking cool).


Also, I can't seem to find it, but is there a feat that advances divine spellcasting levels?


Haven't given stats coz I don't have them at the moment.
We play on Roll20 and I haven't been around my computer for a little while.

And I'm in the same mind as Grandlounge. The less level dipping the better, but if I have to level dip, I want thinks where a dip of a few levels actually helps.


Also weird but also kinda cool idea:

Take a level in Mammoth Rider. Get a huge dire bear. Cast anthropomorphic animal on it. Build it a huge butchering axe. Max damage of 48 before bonuses.


Would you happen to know what trait allowed lawful Barbarians?


Oh ok!
I'll have to think about it tho. Coz if ends up being huge, I can only take it so many places. Caves tend to happen sometimes haha.
And I'll have a chat to my GM about keeping the same bear but letting it become Dire. He might allow it?

I got a bit of time to decide on taking Mammoth Rider anyway. My BAB is still one point off. I'll have it by CL9 but it just means that CL10 would be Mammoth Rider if I decided to take it.

The only thing is tho, if I'm wildshaping a lot, I probably won't be mounting it too much.

I'm probably not gonna bother with Hunter or Cavalier. Too many classes might be more of a hinderance. I'm happy to dip into a third, but a fourth might cause more problems.

Thanks for the tips tho!
Defs looking like more levels in Monk aren't really worth it. Especially if I can't use most of the features while Wildshaped anyway.


Legit already said what my pet is...a bear. Specifically a black bear.

And my character is an elf. He's a real cool dude. He's seen some s$#+.

Fav animals tho? I'm loving Dire Tiger. Getting some sweet damage output off that thing. Gonna have feral combat training on claws soon so it'll work super well with the styles I have.

Also isn't Mammoth Rider pretty dependant on riding the companion? Like a lot of bonuses and abilites are only given while mounted?


The big issue is, I'm not prepared to change my bear for something else.
Character wise, it just doesn't make sense. They've already been through so much together, he's not about to ditch it for something else.

Again, its not about getting a different companion. Its about making the one I have as good as I can get it. And damage wise (and also aesthetically it would just look freakin cool) Anthropomorphic Animal with a butchering axe seems the way to go.
Unless I'm missing something?


As great as spells are, I'm more about wildshaping and doing super cool melee stuff.
Dire Tiger with Dragon and Boar style on its claws is nuts.

I wanna focus more on the melee aspect of things. Using stuff from MoMS (or a another class if necessary) to make wildshape even better.

The other thing is optimizing my bear. To me, its looking like using Anthropomorphic Animal and burning a feat for Exotic Weapon Proficiency so he can use a Butchering Axe seems the way to go. It ups his max damage up 5 points.
And as a bear, he has no special abilities that are dependant on his claws.
I just need a second opinion on if this is the way to go.

I don't want a new companion, I just want to make the bear better.

And as cool as Mammoth Rider sounds, its more dependant on riding the bear. Something I'm not gonna be able to do while wildshaped.


And if feral combat training doesn't benefit from the unnarmed strike, is it worth putting more levels into monk or druid?
Currently Druid 6, Master of Many Styles 2


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
AnUnlovedLobster wrote:
I'm just not 100% sure if there are other ways to up its damage output without spending more money and burning more feats (at least 2 to just get feral combat training).
Dip into Mammoth Rider and trade in your bear for an Arsinotherium.

Legit just said my character aint about ditching his bear for something else that might be better.

It's not about getting a better companion. Its about what ways can I make the bear better.


I'm just not 100% sure if there are other ways to up its damage output without spending more money and burning more feats (at least 2 to just get feral combat training).


Meirril wrote:
AnUnlovedLobster wrote:

Nah I've ditched the ranged idea at this point haha.

I've already got shaping focus so I'm covered on that front.

In terms of running my druidzilla I've basically got it covered at this point. Thanks guys!!!

Only thing I'm tossing up now is if I cast permanent Anthropomorphic Animal on my bear and give him a Butchering Axe. Damage wise, he'd deal more. A max of 34 at level 8 instead of max damage of 29.
And bears don't have rake or pounce so he wouldn't really have any special abilities to lose. I'm just not 100% sure if he'd be better off as a regular bear, or a werebear.

Anthropomorphic Animal doesn't give the bear proficiency with the axe, or any other weapon. So the bear would be at -4 to hit with it. Sounds like a bad idea.

You might consider trading your bear for a different animal companion. One that can ride you so they can benefit from your pounce ability, or that can pounce themselves.

I'm totally aware of that. It would take a feat to be proficient in using the axe, that's totally fine. I'm honestly ok with burning a feat for that.

And character wise, it doesn't make sense for me to just ditch the bear. My character isn't about ditching the bear for something else just coz he can.


Derklord wrote:
AnUnlovedLobster wrote:
So am I right in assuming that a lot of things that ki lets you do won't apply to natural attacks either?
Yes, you are. Feral Combat Training only works with feats, period. No class features.

Ah oh well

I'll still make it work!


Derklord wrote:
No. The original wording of the feat did include "effects that augment an unarmed strike", which did give the option to use the unarmed damage instead of the normal damage, but that part was removed in the second printing of Ultimate Combat. The current wording only applies the effects of feats that have Improved Unarmed Strike as a prerequisite.

So am I right in assuming that a lot of things that ki lets you do won't apply to natural attacks either?


Nah I've ditched the ranged idea at this point haha.

I've already got shaping focus so I'm covered on that front.

In terms of running my druidzilla I've basically got it covered at this point. Thanks guys!!!

Only thing I'm tossing up now is if I cast permanent Anthropomorphic Animal on my bear and give him a Butchering Axe. Damage wise, he'd deal more. A max of 34 at level 8 instead of max damage of 29.
And bears don't have rake or pounce so he wouldn't really have any special abilities to lose. I'm just not 100% sure if he'd be better off as a regular bear, or a werebear.


Also question about the monk's unnarmed damage.
As as monk levels up, his damage scales up.
With feral combat training on claws, would the monk class feature scale up the damage on the claws?


Oh yeah true!
And yeah, I'm a Master of Many Styles. So I've currently got Dragon and Boar style.

The ranged idea won't work, so its all good! Thought it was worth the ask tho.

Probs no sense in giving the bear a big sword or something if he's already got two claws.


Yeah fair call!
Just thought I'd look into it.

Aesthetically, it would have looked sick for my druid to wildshape and have a Werebear ride a dire Tiger into a fight


Sorry, should have specified. I meant ranged weapons. I do have spells, yes, but they don't always work. I have a bow that I use when not wildshaped, but thats kinda it.
We have 2 other ranged players in the party but they aren't always there.

This is more about if the bear would be better being a warebear haha


So we're not far into a campaign, and I'm playing a Druid 6/Monk 2.
Feral combat training and master of many styles makes it a good time.

I've also got an animal companion with me, specifically its a bear.

But I had an idea and I need to know if its worth it or not.

In almost all combat scenarios, I'm gonna be wildshaped and can only do melee. I need a ranged person helping me out.

Is it worth casting Permanent Anthropomorphic Animal on my bear, and giving him Mounted Combat and proficiency in a ranged weapon?
Coz bears don't really have any abilities that depend on their claws, so its not like it would be losing things like pounce and rake. Just 2 natural attacks.


Also to clarify, we have another Sorcerer.
I'm mostly taking it to qualify for DD.

That's why I said it probably wasn't worth putting too many more levels into it.


I also grabbed Weapon Focus at level 1, but I might end up retraining that. Haven't decided yet.


Considering I'm running a more martial build though, is taking Prestigious Spellcaster 3 times worth it?

Like it'll help, sure, but wouldn't I be better taking something more martial focused?
Like martial wise, and flavour wise, putting 3 feats into an Animal Companion seems pretty viable.
So maybe Favoured Prestige Class, 2 feats in Prestigious Spellcaster, Nature Soul, Animal Ally, Boon Companion, Mutated Shape.

Still leaves me with 3 feats that I can decide on further down the track.

Also Mutated Shape needs a BAB of +6 so I can't take it till at least 8th level.


Here's a weird question

I'm going for Tattooed Sorcerer, so I'll get a level 1 familiar. Though I would have preferred an animal companion.
Here's what I wanna know though.
Is there any real benefit in having both?
Coz I can get an animal companion via Animal Ally, but that'll be 3 feats before its at character level, and I'm not super sure its worth the 3 feets.

I'm about to hit level 3, so if I do it, I'm gonna be grabbing Nature Soul next, but I just wanna know if something else might be more worth it.


Oh true! I'll look into all that.
Thanks!

Its probably more worth investing 3 feats in that than it is investing 3 feats in getting an animal companion haha


I have been considering brawler
But thematically, DD suits better.

I might dip a couple levels into brawler at some point though.
I'm only taking 4 in Shifter, 1 in Sorc, and maybe 10 in DD.
Even then, I've still got 5 levels left over, and its honestly not worth putting too many more into Shifter or Sorcerer.


Oh true
Tbh I'd rather have DD progress my Sorcerer spellcasting.
Gonna work out better in the long run.

Another natural attack would've been pretty fun but its probs not worth losing that level to it.


I do also like the sound of that White Haired Witch idea

Might take a proper look and see how well it stacks with Shifter, Sorc, and DD


Update:
He isn't allowing it.
Also won't allow DD to level up stuff via Crossblooded.

So I'll probs just take Tattooed Sorcerer instead.

An Animal Companion would've been cool, but oh well


Ah ok, righto

Surely having both Crossblooded and Wildblooded/Sylvan isn't super game breaking.
I might chat to my GM and see if he'll allow it.


Derklord wrote:


You can't take Sylvan bloodline. It would be pretty powerful (with Boon Companion feat, it'd be at full character level), but alas, Dragon Disciple says a Sorcerer must have the draconic bloodline.

Is there anything stopping me from taking Crossblooded, getting the Draconic and Fey bloodline, then taking Sylvan?

Because last I heard, you can take multiple archetypes as long as they aren't both replacing the same stuff.


I might take Tattooed Sorcerer
My only concern is that I lose breath weapon.

Though I'm not sure how useful that would actually be to me.

I was having a look at Sylvan as well. The animal companion seems like a cool touch, but maybe I'd be better off with a familiar.

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