Witness the God of War!

Friday, June 21, 2024

I’ve known Gorum longer than anyone else. Although he’s changed and developed in ways I never considered, he was created for my homebrew setting back in the very early 90s, as I was rounding out my campaign setting in preparation for a big campaign I was going to run for several friends in my college dorm.

He wasn’t the first, second, or third divinity I created for my setting (those honors go, in order, to Yamasoth, Treerazer, and Desna), but he was part of the larger group of two-dozen or so gods I invented once the world-building bug bit me. I wanted a deity in my setting who was someone like Crom, someone non-clerics like Conan could pray to or curse to before, during, and after a fight. Unlike Crom and Conan, though, I wanted this god of war to be fully armored and armed in iron and steel. And so the idea of a god who presents as an animated suit of armor was born into my setting.

When it came time to build Golarion, we were very pressed for time. We had to simultaneously close out the magazines and then jump right into producing our own RPG content without skipping a month, due to the realities of the subscription-based promises and methods Paizo had been built on. It’s very difficult to build an adventure in a world without proper nouns. You can make that up as you go, but that runs the risk of rushing an important job. So as I was put in charge of the Pathfinder Adventure Path line, I made the decision to draw from my then 15-year-old setting for much of that lore. Which included the deities.

We wanted to do 20 “core deities” from the start because it was a fun number to aim at (this being a d20 game), but also because that allowed us to create two different types of deities for each of the 9 alignments, with 2 left over to pad the numbers (one of those went to Neutral to create a “best choice” deity for druids, and one of those went to Lawful Good to create a “best choice” deity for paladins).

Gorum ended up making the jump from my homebrew at that stage into the public by being one of the two chaotic neutral deities chosen, and for the next 17 years, he would serve as Golarion’s god of war.

: Gorum lays waste to vast swathes of puny mortals with but a swing of his mighty blade

Illustration by Maichol Quinto


Roleplaying the Grim Reaper

When we decided it was time to shake things up in the Lost Omens setting, the death of a god made the most sense. We’d done this at the dawn of the campaign with the death of Aroden—even though his death took place a century earlier, it still was a huge part of our world’s lore. But killing off someone no one knows about is very different than killing off someone who some folks have known for 17 years (or in my case, closer to 34 years). We had a lot of discussions about which of the core 20 deities we wanted the metaphorical Grim Reaper to visit. We didn’t want to kill off an evil deity, since that would have less emotional impact, but we also didn’t want to take out a deity we had strong plans for in the future, or whose role in the setting was significantly load bearing.

In my homebrew in the early 2000s, I killed off Abadar as part of a plot where the world was slipping into entropy and the PCs had to step up to help prevent more gods from being killed, and he was thus my first nomination. But he’s also someone who’s a handy non-evil villain to have around, and beyond that, he had a role in the future in Starfinder. Other folks suggested other deities, but in the end, we all settled on Gorum. Here was a god who wasn’t evil, who was part of the core 20 but didn’t have a particularly strong role in the lore, didn’t represent a specific ancestry or character class, but who was still popular enough that his death wouldn’t feel hollow. It would still sting. It would still be noticeable. And it would absolutely change the setting—especially when we decided that the death of the god of war wasn’t going to make war go away, but instead let war run rampant.

llustration by Kendal Gates : Gorum in his full glory

llustration by Kendal Gates


Witness Him!

Unlike Aroden’s death, which was and will remain shrouded in mystery, we aren’t being coy about Gorum’s death. The specific methods by which he dies will be spelled out in print, and your PCs will be able to take part in multiple adventures impacted by the event—an event known as Godsrain, and which begins a period historians will refer to as the War of Immortals. We’ll have information about what your clerics of Gorum can do next, particularly in adventures where the event takes place after you’ve already potentially started playing clerics of Gorum. We hope the specific details of how and why will resonate with everyone in the same way they do with me and everyone on the editorial team at Paizo!

During PaizoCon last month, we revealed more details about where and when Gorum dies, as well as how you can read those details as a GM, how your PCs can take part in those details as they play out in the course of play, or how you can experience them in the form of fiction. Those who want light spoiler information about where you can find out more, read on. Those who want to be surprised about the event when it happens in your game—I’ve already said too much!

SPOILERS

Gorum’s death is described in detail in the upcoming standalone adventure, Prey for Death. Where that event takes place during the adventure, I won’t say more now, but GMs who read the adventure will find that information front and center. How much the players learn, and when that learning happens, depends on the choices they make during play, of course!

The Curtain Call Adventure Path will be starting in a world before these events take place, but by the end of that three-part, high-level campaign, Gorum will be dead. While the direct impact of this will be less than it was in Prey for Death, other developments rising from the event will be on full display. Again, the timing of where and when Godsrain falls during Curtain Call isn’t something we’ve revealed, but it will become obvious once the first volume (and its short summary of the campaign’s three chapters) is published.

After that, War of Immortals presents additional information about the rules involved with these events, Lost Omens Divine Mysteries spends some time exploring the way the gods of the setting are changing, and the novel Godsrain chronicles some in-world fiction involving some familiar iconic heroes as they experience certain developments caused by the death of Our Lord in Iron.

Illustration by Mark Tarrisse: mortals look to the sky and witness Gorum’s death

Illustration by Mark Tarrisse


After these, we’re not simply going to let the topic go, of course. The Godsrain may be over, but the War of Immortals is only beginning. And while we’ll soon reveal the exact event in which Gorum dies in print for you to read, there are other new mysteries that event sets up. Mysteries we have plans for. These events—Gorum’s death and other still-unrevealed-complications that death creates—will continue affecting the Lost Omens setting from this point forward, much in the same way that the re-introduction of the runelords in the very first Pathfinder Adventure Path continues to have ripple effects, the closing of the Worldwound allows for the exploration of new stories, and the secession of Ravounel sets up brand new narratives to experience. The War of Immortals is larger in scope and scale than all of those, though, make no mistake. You’ll see the aftermath of the Godsrain play out in the Triumph of the Tusk Adventure Path later this year, and it has some ripple effects that help kick things off in next year’s just-announced Spore War Adventure Path as well. Not every adventure will be focused on these events—the one after Spore War won’t, for example—but just as we’re still telling stories about runelords or the aftermath of the Worldwound or the fate of Ravounel, what goes down during the War of Immortals is here to stay.

Unlike Gorum.

But do not weep for him! Instead, maybe the next time your PC slays a dragon, defeats an evil warlord, or simply earns a new weapon or suit of armor, raise a sword in his memory.

James Jacobs
Pathfinder Creative Director of Narrative

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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Gorum doesn't die. He goes to Hell and regroups.


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Consequences of Gorum snuffing it:
Okay, there are going to be a lot of worshippers and clerics looking around for a new divine patron I figure, assuming some pre-existing deity doesn't covertly grant spells, etc, to anyone praying to Gorum.
Going down the list of deities in the front-cover of my old edition 'Gods and Magic', covering the ones either CN or within one alignment step:

Besmara (CE) - may be well positioned to hoover up Gorum worshippers and clergy with a interest in naval warfare, being a pirate goddess.

Brigh (N) - minor deity, described actually as Gorum's 'counterpart'. I'm reading 'counterpart' in this instance as being along the lines of 'opposite', so I'm having trouble seeing Brigh as compatible with Gorum worshippers ad clergy.

Calistria (CN) - I could see Calistria as maybe going so far as to patronise people interested in feuds and vendettas; possibly could step up as some kind of elven goddess of war, but I'm not sure that would interest her.

Cayden Cailean (CG) - I don't see Cayden being generally interested in war - well not beyond tavern brawling. Some 'adventurers' might convert from Gorum to Cayden, I guess, but I'm not sure Cayden himself or his church would go looking to push for conversions.

Dahak (CE) - 'scalefolk' deity, so probably species limited in terms of worshippers, but might pick up any 'scalefolk' who for whatever reason had previously worshipped Gorum.

Desna (CG) - without some serious motivation, I have difficulty imagining Desna wanting to turn herself into a war goddess or patron of war.

Fandarra (N) - giant deity, triple aspect. Might, in her 'vengeance' aspect have some appeal for giants who previously worshipped Gorum.

Findeladlara (CG) - exclusively elven deity, interested in traditions and art. I have trouble seeing Findeladlara being interested in picking up any elves looking for a war deity.

Ghlaunder (CE) - deity of diseases and parasites I have difficulty seeing as having appeal for former Gorum worshippers.

Gozreh (N) - duel aspect nature deity. Not a deity I can see being compatible with many former Gorumites.

Groetus (CN) - Gods and Magic shows Groetus' pre-existing followers as more interested in after-battle clear-up (dispatching the wounded) than actual battles, so I have trouble seeing this religion expand to take in a lot of people looking for a war patron.

Gyronna (CE) - female exclusive priesthood deity. I get the impression Gyronna is a bit too focused in the direction of covert and subtle activity for this church to be looking to pick up any Gorumites whose inclinations didn't already run this way.

Haggakal (CE) - ogre deity. I could maybe see ogres previously attached to Gorum converting to one of their own deities whose domains include 'strength'.

Hanspur (CN) - 'waterways guardian'. My impression is Hanspur is too much of a 'nature deity' to be interested in going looking for Gorumites.

Ketephys (CG) - elven 'woods & hunting' deity. Might have some appeal for elven rangers and other soldiers previously associated with Gorum.

Lamashtu (CE) - special case. Will cover below.

Milani (CG) - deity of uprisings. May have some appeal as a substitute for Gorum for those fighting in uprisings.

Naderi (N) - deity of suicides. I have some trouble seeing Naderi as a substitute for Gorum for any except those seeking their own death in battle.

Nethys (N) - dual aspect deity of magic. May have some appeal for those specifically interested in the use of magic for protection and/or destruction in war/battle.

Nivi Rhombodazzle (N) - gnome deity. A deity concerned with underground exploration and discovery, I have trouble seeing Nivi as a substitute for Gorum.

Pharasma (N) - deity of fate and afterlife. Unless Gorum's demise has in some way compromised 'what was meant to be' in some way which Pharasma sees as requiring her intervention to 'right', I see Pharasma as too detached to go looking for former Gorum worshippers. If Gorum's demise is some kind of gigantic cosmic blunder, I could maybe see Pharasma covertly granting spells to at least the CN and N clergy, in Gorum's stead.

Rovagug (CE) - deity of destruction. I could definitely see some former Gorumites who enjoyed the destructive aspects of war switching to Rovagug.

Sivanah (N) - illusion specific deity. Probably incompatible with the interests of former Gorumites, outside of corner-cases like battlefield illusionists.

Thamir Gixx (CE) - furtive halfling deity. Might conceivably be involved in Gorum's demise, but I doubt the deity is interested in picking up the worshippers.

Thremyr (CE) - deity of giants with an interest in hoards. Seems to me likely to be incompatible with most former Gorumites.

Urazra (CE) - deity of giants with an interest in raiding. Might be compatible with some giants who formerly were Gorumites.

Ydersius (CE) - defunct 'scalefolk' deity, at least as of the time of 'Gods and Magic'. Listed as having a potential future ambition (if revived) of leading followers to 'attack the surface' so might be in the market as a patron at least for 'scalefolk' who previously followed Gorum.

Zogmugot (CE) - some kind of goblin hoard deity. Not an obvious fit for me with many former Gorumites.

*******

Nocticula (CN) - I gather that since 'Gods and Magic' came out, this former demon lord has ascended (both in terms of alignment and of status) to become a CN patron of the arts and those seeking redemption. I'm not sure the identified interests would square with Nocticula going out of her way to acquire many former Gorumites in the normal way of things.

*******

LAMASHTU (CE) - note the capital letters, to emphasise this consideration. To my mind, Lamashtu is in prime position to benefit from Gorum's demise. Lamashtu has previous experience of hoovering up the portfolio and worshippers of a defunct deity (Curchanus, whose demise she was personally responsible for), and already has what comes across to me as a 'war against civilization' thing going for her. Someone up-thread mentioned Gorum as being a deity of nomadic barbarian tribes; I wouldn't be at all surprised to see Lamashtu benefit heavily in terms of conversions of former Gorumites, at least amongst CN and CE aligned followers. Depending on the exact circumstances of Gorum's demise and how deities function, she might be able to simply outright expand her influence to become a war goddess, too, or to find some underling or progeny to set up as a war deity.
I doubt the daemons would be too happy to see Lamashtu as a replacement war-deity for Gorum, and the irony of that happening, were the daemons responsible for Gorum's demise (one possibility floated up-thread) would be delicious.

*******

NB Yes, there are other war-deities around such as Iomedae (LG). I have not considered deities such as Iomedae, since it seems to me that their alignments are too far out of step with Gorum's (CN) to pick up any more than a fraction of the clergy, if the 'cleric must be within one alignment step of deity' thing still holds (I may assume incorrectly here that it does), and grabbing existing Gorumite clergy is going to be really useful in terms of bringing their congregations with them. Although I guess deities of trickery such as Asmodeus (LE) might bestir themselves to grant spells and powers to clerics completely removed from their own alignment if it suited their agenda.

*******

Apologies for points where I am somewhat out of date. And I have no idea of what pre-determined plans may have already been established by Paizo, in terms of consequences of Gorum's demise, being somewhat out of contact ad relevance ever since the end of the 'Ask James Jacobs' nights in the old Paizo chatroom.
I hope, nevertheless, that this post is of some use to someone somewhere.

Grand Lodge

One assassin is all it takes...


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I mean, one benefit of "alignment isn't a thing anymore" is that people shopping for a War God just have to care about Holy and Unholy now.

Grand Lodge

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
PossibleCabbage wrote:
Starcatcher wrote:
RIP... no, wait, he'd hate that.
I believe the appropriate epitaph would be RIV.

}

RIP: RIP Into Pieces.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Charles Evans 25 wrote:
NB Yes, there are other war-deities around such as Iomedae (LG). I have not considered deities such as Iomedae, since it seems to me that their alignments are too far out of step with Gorum's (CN) to pick up any more than a fraction of the clergy

What's alignment?

TBH while they're generally far apart, Gorum's emphasis on somewhat honorable combat seems like something Iomedae could work with, at least with some followers who are willing to allow themselves to be pointed at specific targets.

I could also see Pharasma benefiting very indirectly, not because of any portfolio match-up, but because one of the best places to 'fight the good fight' right now is the Gravelands. I could see displaced Gorumites wandering over there and potentially affiliating with the world's first and foremost anti-undead deity.


Squiggit wrote:
Charles Evans 25 wrote:
NB Yes, there are other war-deities around such as Iomedae (LG). I have not considered deities such as Iomedae, since it seems to me that their alignments are too far out of step with Gorum's (CN) to pick up any more than a fraction of the clergy

What's alignment?

TBH while they're generally far apart, Gorum's emphasis on somewhat honorable combat seems like something Iomedae could work with, at least with some followers who are willing to allow themselves to be pointed at specific targets.

I could also see Pharasma benefiting very indirectly, not because of any portfolio match-up, but because one of the best places to 'fight the good fight' right now is the Gravelands. I could see displaced Gorumites wandering over there and potentially affiliating with the world's first and foremost anti-undead deity.

<shrug>

I'm still running on 3rd Edition D&D/1st edition Pathfinder (when not 2nd edition AD&D), and vaguely aware that some stuff got changed by whatever edition Pathfinder is on now, but not what.
Hadn't heard there was some kind of mega-outer-planar war raging now in the Pathfinder universe. (Edit: My assumption here is that these 'Gravelands' are something which happened to Pharasma's 'Boneyard'?)
Oh well. I did give fair warning that I was a potentially out of date old fogey, but it's a bit depressing to discover I spent an hour plus typing that up to be quite so irrelevant.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

It's not irrelevant, it's an interesting read.

And no, the Gravelands are Tar Baphon's new playground after he destroys Lastwall. Very much a mortal affair, but if you're a warrior who's just lost a god, going off to fight the undead and carrying a charm of Pharasma seems like a reasonable possible outcome.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The Raven Black wrote:
UnArcaneElection wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:

"Part of the journey is the end."

Part of war is dying. I think this choice is fitting in many ways.

** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

My current conspiracy theory

** spoiler omitted **

so like Radahn from Elden Ring.


Squiggit wrote:

It's not irrelevant, it's an interesting read.

And no, the Gravelands are Tar Baphon's new playground after he destroys Lastwall. Very much a mortal affair, but if you're a warrior who's just lost a god, going off to fight the undead and carrying a charm of Pharasma seems like a reasonable possible outcome.

I thought the Carrion Crown adventure path ensured Tar Baphon stayed buried?

This is getting a bit off-topic of Gorum, however (unless Tar Baphon killed him to take his stuff) so I'll leave off there. :|


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Squiggit wrote:
Charles Evans 25 wrote:
NB Yes, there are other war-deities around such as Iomedae (LG). I have not considered deities such as Iomedae, since it seems to me that their alignments are too far out of step with Gorum's (CN) to pick up any more than a fraction of the clergy

What's alignment?

TBH while they're generally far apart, Gorum's emphasis on somewhat honorable combat seems like something Iomedae could work with, at least with some followers who are willing to allow themselves to be pointed at specific targets.

I could also see Pharasma benefiting very indirectly, not because of any portfolio match-up, but because one of the best places to 'fight the good fight' right now is the Gravelands. I could see displaced Gorumites wandering over there and potentially affiliating with the world's first and foremost anti-undead deity.

There's also Gorum's thing of "Will you fight" as in "will you stand up whomever stands to oppress you" and that is *very* Arazni. Arazni's difference is that she has little interest in "honorable combat" she just wants you to win when you finally pick your spot and decide to stand up.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Charles Evans 25 wrote:

Consequences of Gorum snuffing it:

Okay, there are going to be a lot of worshippers and clerics looking around for a new divine patron I figure, assuming some pre-existing deity doesn't covertly grant spells, etc, to anyone praying to Gorum.
Going down the list of deities in the front-cover of my old edition 'Gods and Magic', covering the ones either CN or within one alignment step:

Besmara (CE) - may be well positioned to hoover up Gorum worshippers and clergy with a interest in naval warfare, being a pirate goddess.

Brigh (N) - minor deity, described actually as Gorum's 'counterpart'. I'm reading 'counterpart' in this instance as being along the lines of 'opposite', so I'm having trouble seeing Brigh as compatible with Gorum worshippers ad clergy.

Calistria (CN) - I could see Calistria as maybe going so far as to patronise people interested in feuds and vendettas; possibly could step up as some kind of elven goddess of war, but I'm not sure that would interest her.

Cayden Cailean (CG) - I don't see Cayden being generally interested in war - well not beyond tavern brawling. Some 'adventurers' might convert from Gorum to Cayden, I guess, but I'm not sure Cayden himself or his church would go looking to push for conversions.

Dahak (CE) - 'scalefolk' deity, so probably species limited in terms of worshippers, but might pick up any 'scalefolk' who for whatever reason had previously worshipped Gorum.

Desna (CG) - without some serious motivation, I have difficulty imagining Desna wanting to turn herself into a war goddess or patron of war.

Fandarra (N) - giant deity, triple aspect. Might, in her 'vengeance' aspect have some appeal for giants who previously worshipped Gorum.

Findeladlara (CG) - exclusively elven deity, interested in traditions and art. I have trouble seeing Findeladlara being interested in picking up any elves looking for a war deity.

Ghlaunder (CE) - deity of diseases and parasites I have difficulty seeing as having appeal for former...

You're missing the big one. Szuriel, the Rider of War, the Angel of Desolation. Favored weapon Greatsword. Edicts: End all mortal life through war. Obliterate faith. Anathema: Show mercy to creatures who do not worship Szuriel. Marry or have children. Domains: Ambition, destruction, fire, might.


Charles Evans 25 wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

It's not irrelevant, it's an interesting read.

And no, the Gravelands are Tar Baphon's new playground after he destroys Lastwall. Very much a mortal affair, but if you're a warrior who's just lost a god, going off to fight the undead and carrying a charm of Pharasma seems like a reasonable possible outcome.

I thought the Carrion Crown adventure path ensured Tar Baphon stayed buried?

This is getting a bit off-topic of Gorum, however (unless Tar Baphon killed him to take his stuff) so I'll leave off there. :|

If you'd like to know more I'd suggest checking out Tyrant's Grasp, the last AP for PF1E. That'll tell you all of what ol' TB's been up to since you last checked in on him.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

You know that's a pretty amazing. You got to take your creations from your homebrew setting from college and bring it to something all of us would take as given in our games.
Rest in peace Gorum? or not peace, right he wouldnt want peace.


Cori Marie wrote:
You're missing the big one. Szuriel, the Rider of War, the Angel of Desolation...

Back in 1st edition Pathfinder, the 'four horsemen' were all NE aligned, which would not meet my search criteria of either be CN or within 1 step of CN.

Now all the demon-lords in 1st edition Pathfinder were (I think) all CE, and at least one of them probably had a war interest, but I figure Lamashtu would get to have called 'dibs' ahead of any of them.

Dark Archive

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On Achaekek thing, I think 3.5 lore implied he is unable to kill gods, but later lore's wording was more of "Chooses not to" nature.

Liberty's Edge

Perpdepog wrote:
Charles Evans 25 wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

It's not irrelevant, it's an interesting read.

And no, the Gravelands are Tar Baphon's new playground after he destroys Lastwall. Very much a mortal affair, but if you're a warrior who's just lost a god, going off to fight the undead and carrying a charm of Pharasma seems like a reasonable possible outcome.

I thought the Carrion Crown adventure path ensured Tar Baphon stayed buried?

This is getting a bit off-topic of Gorum, however (unless Tar Baphon killed him to take his stuff) so I'll leave off there. :|

If you'd like to know more I'd suggest checking out Tyrant's Grasp, the last AP for PF1E. That'll tell you all of what ol' TB's been up to since you last checked in on him.

Pathfinderwiki is also pretty useful for all kind of topics.

Liberty's Edge

Spamotron wrote:
Berselius wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:
I mean "Achaekek cannot kill gods" is a good reason not to write the books in an objective voice.

...but isn't Achaekek more of an divine instrument/construct of the God's wanting various things DEAD though? It probably make sense that Achaekek is loyal to the Gods (if they created Achaekek that is) and thus has sworn it's very existance to never kill one of them.

Though I'm honestly not sure if that applies to DEMIgods (aka Demon Lords, Archdevils, Horsemen of War, etc etc).

My understanding of Achaekek's timeline goes something like this.

Achaekek is one of the OG eight deities created at the dawn of existence by Pharasma's ritual and he was some kind of cosmic judge.

Achaekek has an experience that drives him mad and turns him into the barely sapient God Of Monsters.

Lamashtu obtains godhood via the murder and theft of a deity's power.

A large collection of gods realizes this could lead to Open Season on all deities and needs to be prevented from happening again.

They subdue Achaekek and get to work on restoring his mind. But they also install a bunch of directives into his head to make him the perfect divine assassin and control him. Around the same time they create Grandmother Spider as a servant and implant a bunch of control directives into her as well.

Grandmother Spider proves to be much smarter than these gods intended or realized. She deeply resents having her free will restricted and sees Achaekek as her spiritual brother since he's a victim of it too. She's cunning enough to figure out loopholes in her directives and tricks those gods into freeing her and Achaekek ascending to godhood in the process.

The now sane and free Achaekek considers things and concludes that the chaos of rampant god murder really would undermine reality and takes on the directives he was given voluntarilly.

So killing deities is Anethema to Achaekek because he considers it important to reality's functioning to not do that....

To complete, from the Pathfinderwiki based on the Rage of Creation blogpost, "Near the end of the Age of Creation, when Rovagug was rampaging across creation, Achaekek consumed his own impartiality and descended into savagery, becoming a mindless beast."

Liberty's Edge

Charles Evans 25 wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
Charles Evans 25 wrote:
NB Yes, there are other war-deities around such as Iomedae (LG). I have not considered deities such as Iomedae, since it seems to me that their alignments are too far out of step with Gorum's (CN) to pick up any more than a fraction of the clergy

What's alignment?

TBH while they're generally far apart, Gorum's emphasis on somewhat honorable combat seems like something Iomedae could work with, at least with some followers who are willing to allow themselves to be pointed at specific targets.

I could also see Pharasma benefiting very indirectly, not because of any portfolio match-up, but because one of the best places to 'fight the good fight' right now is the Gravelands. I could see displaced Gorumites wandering over there and potentially affiliating with the world's first and foremost anti-undead deity.

<shrug>

I'm still running on 3rd Edition D&D/1st edition Pathfinder (when not 2nd edition AD&D), and vaguely aware that some stuff got changed by whatever edition Pathfinder is on now, but not what.
Hadn't heard there was some kind of mega-outer-planar war raging now in the Pathfinder universe. (Edit: My assumption here is that these 'Gravelands' are something which happened to Pharasma's 'Boneyard'?)
Oh well. I did give fair warning that I was a potentially out of date old fogey, but it's a bit depressing to discover I spent an hour plus typing that up to be quite so irrelevant.

Not irrelevant IMO.

The setting is actually changing with the years : PF2's launch in 2019 was used to update the lore from 2009, especially including all the previous APs' results (under the hypothesis that PCs won). Since then, results from PF2 APs (with the same hypothesis) have also been incorporated little by little, Age of Ashes being the more obvious one IMO.

Liberty's Edge

PossibleCabbage wrote:
I mean, one benefit of "alignment isn't a thing anymore" is that people shopping for a War God just have to care about Holy and Unholy now.

This will not make followers of Gorum suddenly turn into obedient drone soldiers though.

Rejects authority still rejects authority.

I think it will be the edicts and anathemas that will be the deciding factor.

Liberty's Edge

Kurgess could be a fitting deity for good-leaning followers of Gorum.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Charles Evans 25 wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
You're missing the big one. Szuriel, the Rider of War, the Angel of Desolation...

Back in 1st edition Pathfinder, the 'four horsemen' were all NE aligned, which would not meet my search criteria of either be CN or within 1 step of CN.

Now all the demon-lords in 1st edition Pathfinder were (I think) all CE, and at least one of them probably had a war interest, but I figure Lamashtu would get to have called 'dibs' ahead of any of them.

But again, alignment as a mechanic is gone now. That doesn't matter anymore.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I actually feel like Szuriel is a really bad fit. She's got some very superficially similar vibes to Gorum, but her tenets are purely destructive. War is a means by which to darken the universe.

Gorum's on the other hand is all about the thrill of battle itself. Gorum wants people to fight the good fight forevermore, while Szuriel wants to end everything through War. There's even some competing anathema (Gorum forbids killing those who surrender, Szuriel forbids showing mercy).

So in some respects, despite the surface level commonalities, in many respects Szuriel represents a fundamental perversion of what Gorum represents. His most devoted should be leading the charge against her, not signing up.


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For another option, there's a new god coming in Lost Omens: Divine Mysteries called Zjar Tovan, who is literally an intelligent Greatsword that's risen to divinity and is all about weapons and warfare. And it's been confirmed on Discord by James Case that Zjar's favored weapon is the Greatsword!

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I mean you're not going to find one single god to replace Gorum for everyone, that's kind of the point of killing him. Some of his followers will flock to Sarenrae or Iomedae for righteous battle, others to Szuriel or Zjar Tovan. Others to Arazni.

Liberty's Edge

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Ezekieru wrote:
For another option, there's a new god coming in Lost Omens: Divine Mysteries called Zjar Tovan, who is literally an intelligent Greatsword that's risen to divinity and is all about weapons and warfare. And it's been confirmed on Discord by James Case that Zjar's favored weapon is the Greatsword!

Is Zjar Tovan Gorum's Greatsword ?


On the Achaekek vs Gorum debate, the Achaekek bestiary entry on pages 80-81 of 'Escape from Old Korvosa' had this to say:

Bestiary entry wrote:

...Yet the gods did not wish to create a creature capable of being used against them, and thus created the Mantis God with the fundamental inability to act against the gods themselves - it can only slay those of demigod status or lower...

...and just as He Who Walks in Blood cannot kill a God, so have the Red Mantis adopted a tradition to their ways...

These are quotes from a game rules stat-block. The original version of Achaekek in the campaign setting couldn't have killed Gorum, or not unless Gorum dropped to demigod status or lower first.

Edition change reboots of the setting may have 'retgonned' this and written a new and different version of Achaekek though. (Edit: As indeed from some of the more recent posts on this thread, it looks like they may have done... Hey, ho....)

Edit:
Ah, Pathfinder #9, there's a trip down memory lane. I had forgotten the undead skeletal elephants... :D


Charles Evans 25 wrote:
On the Achaekek vs Gorum debate, the Achaekek bestiary entry on pages 80-81 of 'Escape from Old Korvosa' had this to say:
Bestiary entry wrote:

...Yet the gods did not wish to create a creature capable of being used against them, and thus created the Mantis God with the fundamental inability to act against the gods themselves - it can only slay those of demigod status or lower...

...and just as He Who Walks in Blood cannot kill a God, so have the Red Mantis adopted a tradition to their ways...

These are quotes from a game rules stat-block. The original version of Achaekek in the campaign setting couldn't have killed Gorum, or not unless Gorum dropped to demigod status or lower first.

Edition change reboots of the setting may have 'retgonned' this and written a new and different version of Achaekek though. (Edit: As indeed from some of the more recent posts on this thread, it looks like they may have done... Hey, ho....)

Edit:
Ah, Pathfinder #9, there's a trip down memory lane. I had forgotten the undead skeletal elephants... :D

Part of that was retconned even before PF2E, yep. I don't know if it impinges on your point, but it was confirmed later on that Achaekek having stats was a mistake, and that he was intended to be a full, stat-less deity as opposed to the demigod-level beings who can still have stats.


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Wasn't the "game rules stat block" for Achaekek later clarified to be an Avatar of Achaekek, rather than Achaekek himself?

Like Achaekek is a God, and Gods in Pathfinder do not have statblocks, since they don't operate on the level of game mechanics, they operate on the level of story.


It might have been? I just recall that not being a true representation of Achaekek. I think I read about the statblock thing in the "Ask James Jacobs" thread. That thing is a monster; if someone is willing to brave it to find out I'd be grateful.

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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The version of Achaekek we published in that early volume was before the Pathfinder RPG existed; it was a 3.5 version of Achaekek that was relying upon the OGL rules present in 3.5 products like Epic Level Handbook.

In 1st edition Pathfinder we adopted a different stance; full deities don't get stat blocks. Achaekek wouldn't have one so the 3.5 version was outdated to be a curiosity that we wouldn't be using going forward. You can use those stats as stats for him or for an avatar or whatever you want, but in modern Remastered 2nd edition pathfinder Achaekek doesn't have a stat block at all.

As for what's going on with him killing Gorum... we explain things more in "Prey for Death."


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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Perpdepog wrote:
It might have been? I just recall that not being a true representation of Achaekek. I think I read about the statblock thing in the "Ask James Jacobs" thread. That thing is a monster; if someone is willing to brave it to find out I'd be grateful.

You didn’t even have to Ask James Jacobs to get the James Jacobs response!

Dark Archive

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

Yaeh as said 3.5 version pretty directly says that Achaekek "can't". Then later books like Inner Sea Faiths makes it sound like its more of honor code thing.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

And something that I don't think we've considered yet. Achaekek killing Gorum sets a precedent. If so, the Red Mantis might just relax or remove their one big restriction. A few regicides here and there (whether successful or not) might go a long way towards starting some wars.


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Cori Marie wrote:
I mean you're not going to find one single god to replace Gorum for everyone, that's kind of the point of killing him. Some of his followers will flock to Sarenrae or Iomedae for righteous battle, others to Szuriel or Zjar Tovan. Others to Arazni.

Some will find Gorum’s death personally epiphanous and pivot to more peaceful gods like Desna or…find peace with Gozreh. Some will in anger turn to dark gods like Asmodeus or in despair turn to warfare of a more sedate but no less dangerous form and worship Abadar.

And some will lose their faith entirely.

Such is the way of gods. And their disciples.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

This feels a little like Worf Effect. The one match we get with the god of war and he dies.

Grand Lodge

Nah, we've never seen him proclaimed as stronger than any other god.


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
Nah, we've never seen him proclaimed as stronger than any other god.

He is vastly more willing to fight an unknown opponent than any other God though.

Grand Lodge

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So Goku instead of Worf?


TriOmegaZero wrote:
So Goku instead of Worf?

Goku would literally wish for beings like Gorum and Rovagug to show up at his doorstep.

Liberty's Edge

Souls At War wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
So Goku instead of Worf?
Goku would literally wish for beings like Gorum and Rovagug to show up at his doorstep.

TBH Goku would go and free Rovagug and wait for him to be fully recovered and at full strength.


The Raven Black wrote:
Souls At War wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
So Goku instead of Worf?
Goku would literally wish for beings like Gorum and Rovagug to show up at his doorstep.
TBH Goku would go and free Rovagug and wait for him to be fully recovered and at full strength.

More like Vegeta (who actually did that with Cell), but I guess Goku would too.


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Megistone wrote:
The Raven Black wrote:
Souls At War wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
So Goku instead of Worf?
Goku would literally wish for beings like Gorum and Rovagug to show up at his doorstep.
TBH Goku would go and free Rovagug and wait for him to be fully recovered and at full strength.
More like Vegeta (who actually did that with Cell), but I guess Goku would too.

Goku takes it a step further, in fact. He healed Cell before making him fight his kid.


James Jacobs wrote:

The version of Achaekek we published in that early volume was before the Pathfinder RPG existed; it was a 3.5 version of Achaekek that was relying upon the OGL rules present in 3.5 products like Epic Level Handbook.

In 1st edition Pathfinder we adopted a different stance; full deities don't get stat blocks. Achaekek wouldn't have one so the 3.5 version was outdated to be a curiosity that we wouldn't be using going forward. You can use those stats as stats for him or for an avatar or whatever you want, but in modern Remastered 2nd edition pathfinder Achaekek doesn't have a stat block at all.

As for what's going on with him killing Gorum... we explain things more in "Prey for Death."

This is starting to remind me of a lot of things which have happened in the Forgotten Realms setting.

As far as I understand it Ed Greenwood is still alive, and I remember him working with Paizo before on stuff like the RPGSuperstar contests. And I figure Ed must have had a ringside seat for what was going on at TSR and what worked and what didn't for at least the 'Avatar Crisis'. Have Paizo managed to get Ed on board for this as at least an informal consultant (even if the only payment he's doing it for is a beer whenever he drops by Seattle?)

Paizo Employee Creative Director

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Charles Evans 25 wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:

The version of Achaekek we published in that early volume was before the Pathfinder RPG existed; it was a 3.5 version of Achaekek that was relying upon the OGL rules present in 3.5 products like Epic Level Handbook.

In 1st edition Pathfinder we adopted a different stance; full deities don't get stat blocks. Achaekek wouldn't have one so the 3.5 version was outdated to be a curiosity that we wouldn't be using going forward. You can use those stats as stats for him or for an avatar or whatever you want, but in modern Remastered 2nd edition pathfinder Achaekek doesn't have a stat block at all.

As for what's going on with him killing Gorum... we explain things more in "Prey for Death."

This is starting to remind me of a lot of things which have happened in the Forgotten Realms setting.

As far as I understand it Ed Greenwood is still alive, and I remember him working with Paizo before on stuff like the RPGSuperstar contests. And I figure Ed must have had a ringside seat for what was going on at TSR and what worked and what didn't for at least the 'Avatar Crisis'. Have Paizo managed to get Ed on board for this as at least an informal consultant (even if the only payment he's doing it for is a beer whenever he drops by Seattle?)

Ed was a consultant during the initial work on Kingmaker; he produced several monsters and most notably came up with the idea of the Stag Lord in the first adventure, but he hasn't been involved in more recent Pathfinder content.

If it reminds you of some stuff that happened in Forgotten Realms, that's just an indication of just how influential the Forgotten Realms are, I guess, but I feel like the War of Immortals story line (which has yet to really be out there for folks to take part in) is VERY different than the Avatar crisis.


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and Achaekek isn't the only deity with contradicting lore, hell, PF1 never really made its mind about Ydersius being quasi-deity, demigod or full deity.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Souls At War wrote:
and Achaekek isn't the only deity with contradicting lore, hell, PF1 never really made its mind about Ydersius being quasi-deity, demigod or full deity.

Never mind those that had some full-on retcons.


James Jacobs wrote:

Ed was a consultant during the initial work on Kingmaker; he produced several monsters and most notably came up with the idea of the Stag Lord in the first adventure, but he hasn't been involved in more recent Pathfinder content.

If it reminds you of some stuff that happened in Forgotten Realms, that's just an indication of just how influential the Forgotten Realms are, I guess, but I feel like the War of Immortals story line (which has yet to really be out there for folks to take part in) is VERY different than the Avatar crisis.

It's the accounts department, isn't it? They won't stand for an expenses claim for taking Ed out to lunch for some long reminiscences? :D

(Or maybe TSR era non-disclosure stuff, I guess, but anyway...)

You were talking in the thread for a few Blog Posts back about how there weren't any schools for 'writing adventures', and I had a ding, lightbulb, moment of 'well there aren't schools but there are old writers', but, ack...

Stag-Lord, huh? Now I'm trying to figure if I saw any other bandit work he did (discounting Zhentarim as a much bigger organization)... my initial thought was 'Raiders of Galath's Roost' but I just google searched and that was Skip Williams. Must go and dig out my old Dungeon collection and check the last print copy - I think you printed some handy indexes in there...

Thanks for the replies. :)


Charles Evans 25 wrote:

Consequences of Gorum snuffing it:

Okay, there are going to be a lot of worshippers and clerics looking around for a new divine patron I figure, assuming some pre-existing deity doesn't covertly grant spells, etc, to anyone praying to Gorum.
Going down the list of deities in the front-cover of my old edition 'Gods and Magic', covering the ones either CN or within one alignment step:

Besmara (CE) - may be well positioned to hoover up Gorum worshippers and clergy with a interest in naval warfare, being a pirate goddess.
{. . .}

Nice analysis, except that Besmara is officially (and inexplicably) Chaotic Neutral.

But the bigger point is that Alignment is about to suffer Spontaneous Massive Existence Failure . . . .

Liberty's Edge

UnArcaneElection wrote:
Charles Evans 25 wrote:

Consequences of Gorum snuffing it:

Okay, there are going to be a lot of worshippers and clerics looking around for a new divine patron I figure, assuming some pre-existing deity doesn't covertly grant spells, etc, to anyone praying to Gorum.
Going down the list of deities in the front-cover of my old edition 'Gods and Magic', covering the ones either CN or within one alignment step:

Besmara (CE) - may be well positioned to hoover up Gorum worshippers and clergy with a interest in naval warfare, being a pirate goddess.
{. . .}

Nice analysis, except that Besmara is officially (and inexplicably) Chaotic Neutral.

But the bigger point is that Alignment is about to suffer Spontaneous Massive Existence Failure . . . .

That will leave the setting and everything in it that was based on alignment unchanged though.

It is only the PC-lens that changes actually.

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