The Godsrain Prophecies Part Three

Wednesday, February 21, 2024

While it would require someone with far more expertise to confirm this absolutely, I am now convinced that this set of so-called prophecies are all authored by the same hand. Some of this is due to the handwriting on the documents that have been found in more pristine condition (it is perhaps fitting that a prophecy dedicated to the death of the Lucky Drunk was found on a scrap of parchment that looked like it had been dragged through the floor of more than one tavern), but the rest I attribute both to the places in which they were discovered and, I believe, the rhythm of the writing (though I would be a bit more sure of that if I had read The Peculiarities of Prophetic Speech more closely despite what I believe to be a truly excessive number of footnotes). I am sure that Lorminos knows someone who can confirm my beliefs if needed. That is if, of course, my Lady wants a set of writings so inflammatory to be so widely seen. I am far from convinced of the truth of any of them, and a single author could point as much to a singular troublemaker wishing to create strife as someone with a sudden gift of foresight.

—Yivali, Apprentice Researcher for the Lady of Graves




The Death of Cayden Cailean

Cayden Cailean had never thought himself a liar. A storyteller, sure, in the tradition of the tavern, where convincing someone of your worth might mean a refilled tankard. Who among his fellow patrons hadn’t added enemies to boost their tale of combat or invented some new twice-trapped room deep within the dungeon of a newly fallen foe? To claim that he’d become a god was more than normal boasting, but he couldn’t quite remember what had happened with the Starstone. Maybe he had passed its test and that was what kept him alive. Maybe he’d become a god and godhood felt no different than mortal existence. Maybe he would take another round of good ale on the house (a thank you from the barkeep for the honor of his presence). Maybe as he told his tale he could almost believe it. At least until the nightly dreams began.

They started off as flashes, tiny moments in the dark of night—a clanging sword that echoed down a long and shadowed hallway, the smell of new-cut marble turned impossibly acrid, the taste of blood and honey in the space behind his tongue. And still, no matter what they were, each vision woke him shuddering—skin drenched in sweat, heart racing wildly, cold breeze crawling up his spine, a voice he’d never heard before that whispered in his eardrums—liar, drunkard, cheater, thief. One day you will pay for this with everything you owe.

Cayden Cailean would never call himself a cheater. How could he know belief alone could make a deity? But every time the story spread that he had passed the Test of Starstone, something shifted in him, brought him that much closer to true divinity. By the time he heard his story chanted like a rowdy prayer, he was every inch the god that he had claimed to be. He did his best to share the gift, empower those who followed him, pass blessings out like cups of drink to those who strived for freedom. But no good deed had earned him pity from the voice that stalked his dreams, a whisper he now recognized as that of the Starstone itself, murmuring about the flask that he kept tight against his waist—forbidden, stolen, holy power. There will be a reckoning.

The flask was Cayden’s property from long before the Starstone, but now it held a draft he’d brought back from the Cathedral—a distillation of the power held within its core. And while he still could not remember what he’d done to make or bring it back, he knew that every sip gave him a taste of the divine. His followers’ convictions may have been the thing that made him a god, but all beliefs grow worn and frayed and faded over time. No matter who believed in him, he knew one thing down to his core: the liquid in his flask was what kept his lie alive.

But every tiny sip of nectar took his dreams on twisted paths, until he dreamt of death in the Cathedral every night. And after he had died each way the Test of Starstone could devise—some with the sound of steel on bone, some with the fall of flesh to floor, some with a bargain on his tongue that faded in a gasping breath—it left him with a final and unalterable verdict: time for you to pay your debt, return to mortal life.

Cayden Cailean had never minded being mortal, but as his story shifted, he mourned his legacy. Word spread, as words are wont to do, of his deceitful rise to grace, and those who’d raised his name in praise could barely muster pity. The innkeepers and brewers he’d counted as his worshipers now barred him from their premises, afraid they would be thought of as complicit in his lie, and soon the one-time god had faded out of public life, so far removed that no one knows quite how and where he died. Some say it happened in an alley, slumped over in the pouring rain, while others claim he died in battle fighting for a righteous cause, or braved the Starstone once again in one last fatal try.

Iomedae and Norgorber, as fellow gods Ascended, both moved to quell the rumors that they had also cheated to obtain divinity—Iomedae appearing on the front lines with her champions in tireless demonstrations of her prowess on the battlefield and Norgorber eliminating each one of his followers who dared to voice dissent or wonder who he used to be. But neither sees the true change that still lurks along the margins, as one after another shop begins to claim that, for a cost, you too can be transformed from mortal life to deity. If all it takes is stories and a liquor no one understands (as noted in a few reports of Cayden’s sad demise), then nothing stops a hundred shops from selling sugar water and a complement of town criers to those who feel that being god is next on their agenda—a warlord here, a despot there, the righteous and the vengeful—and what new revolution might they bring if they do rise?

An array of 20 portraits depicting the gods of the Pathfinder setting. Asmodeus, Cayden Cailean, and Pharasma’s portraits have been marked “safe.”





A god created from belief alone? That is both deeply intriguing and somewhat baffling, as this is the first report I’ve read of such an occurrence. Surely if this were truly possible, I’d have encountered it before in my studies. This will require more research, though with what time I will pursue it I know not. It does make me wonder how many believers one might have to acquire to cross the boundary from mortal to god, and whether belief was nearly as important in this case as the Starstone nectar mentioned above. I have no doubt that if someone were able to distill a liquor from a source of pure divine power, it would be Cayden Cailean, but for those of us not blessed with that specific set of skills, I am struck by the idea that you could solve for number of believers and gain divinity simply by exceeding that threshold. Equations are not my strong suit, but I may see if I can find a collaborator and determine what that number might be. Though it might be difficult to do without revealing where the idea has come from. Perhaps it would be better to wait until I have all the prophecies properly analyzed and know what my Lady wishes to do with them before I begin making them a basis for a new research field, but it is hard not to get excited!


About the Author

Erin Roberts has been thrilled to be able to contribute a few small threads to the fabric of Golarion in the pages of books like Lost Omens Firebrands, Lost Omens Highhelm, and Lost Omens Travel Guide. In addition to her work for Paizo, she freelances across the TTRPG world (and was selected as a Diana Jones Award Emerging Designer Program Winner in 2023), has had fiction published in magazines including Asimov’s, Clarkesworld, and The Dark, and talks about writing every week on the Writing Excuses podcast. Catch up with her latest at linktr.ee/erinroberts.

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Sy Kerraduess wrote:

So this person obtained a spark of divinity and kept it within one of his personal items, and since then the stories people tell about him have caused his divine powers to grow?

I didn't know Cayden Cailean was an Exemplar!

Interesting. I like the idea of him being an Exemplar, though unlike us PCs he must have gained his divine spark in the cathedral, whereas we get our from the shards of the dead god.

But which god?


Very glad Cayden Cailean is 'Safe'. He's in my top five favorite gods of Pathfinder.

Props to Paizo for keeping us on the edge of our seats in an entertaining fashion.


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zergtitan wrote:
though unlike us PCs he must have gained his divine spark in the cathedral, whereas we get our from the shards of the dead god.

Definitely no shards of up to two dead gods on the Starstone, no sir.

Tangentially does anyone here know how to make moonshine?


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Gnollvalue wrote:
My current main theory is that Zon-Kuthon dies and Shelyn becomes more distant overall in grief or in pursuit of answers.

Zon-Kuthon is a good bet, since there's a real meta problem of "how do we solve the Nidal problem." Since some of the stuff that's been written about Nidal is dark to a degree that Pathfinder doesn't really do anymore. It just seems weird to say "well, Cheliax doesn't do slavery anymore" (a good change,, IMO) when their neighbor to the north is still kidnapping people to slowly and gruesomely torture to death in service of their warped god.

If Zon-Kuthon gets bisected by his sister, that sets up for Nidal to still be an occasionally horrifying place (There's a lot of vampires around) but less of an overwhelmingly horrific place.

I mean, Cheliax doesn't do slavery anymore in the sense that they call it indentured servitude now. PF2 hasn't exactly shied away from people being horribly mangled and tortured (get a lot of that in Abomination Vaults).


magnuskn wrote:
Great, now I'm more worried about Saranrae again, now that two of the three people on that cover art we saw were eliminated straight away from consideration and she was not.

Well, pharasma was published first as a birthday present to one of the writers. I would not take her being published first as any sort of sign of things to come. I treat this as if we have 2 data points, Asmodeus and Cailean. You usually need 3 data points to make a trend


This was a fun little story. I do enjoy that he died of imposter syndrome, and the implication that he never actually achieved godhood via the Starstone at all, but just lied about it enough it became true.

Doubly funny when Norgorger's solution to people claiming he was a fake was just to kill him. Somehow, not so convincing there Norgy.


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Gnollvalue wrote:

I don't like this take, as I feel like it diminishes Shelyn as a character. Yes, it's easy to show her artwork with Sarenrae and Desna to a queer person and say "Poly Lesbians=Pathfinder Good" but if you presented me with the same characters with the same dynamic and told me nothing bad and permanent would ever happen to them under threat of being edgy or "burying the gays" I'd roll my eyes. If there are no stakes, there isn't really much of a conflict. No conflict means there isn't a story. I've played Pathfinder long enough to know is representation everywhere.

[...]

The LGBT experience can be a messy one. Sometimes tragic things happen, and we don't get to keep the happiness we find. For me, Lamashtu represents my queer experience more than anyone in The Prismatic Ray, to the point where I have her holy symbol tattooed on me. While I don't want anything to happen to her, that's the way the story plays out sometimes. It won't diminish my fondness for her (if anything, it might strengthen it), and I won't call out Paizo for having an agenda, good or bad, behind the selection besides trying to tell a compelling story.

Absolutely agreed. I've been playing Pathfinder for just about as long as I've been open that I was queer, and through that whole time, I've felt that the various facets of my identity have been well represented and supported in every part of Pathfinder. Treating any of the goddesses in the Prismatic Ray as untouchable for the sole reason that they're LGBT representation is a disservice to queer folks being accurately, respectfully, and heroically portrayed in fantasy stories like anybody else. We deserve more than to be seen purely as our identities.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Simeon wrote:
Absolutely agreed. I've been playing Pathfinder for just about as long as I've been open that I was queer, and through that whole time, I've felt that the various facets of my identity have been well represented and supported in every part of Pathfinder. Treating any of the goddesses in the Prismatic Ray as untouchable for the sole reason that they're LGBT representation is a disservice to queer folks being accurately, respectfully, and heroically portrayed in fantasy stories like anybody else. We deserve more than to be seen purely as our identities.

I mean, for my money.... Merisel and Kyra, or Irabeth and Anevia are actually the LGBT representatives that first spring to mind in Pathfinder because they're not ageless immortal divine beings, and actually show up in stories having mortal concerns...


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Gnollvalue wrote:
Troodos wrote:
Tridus wrote:
Still worried about Shelyn, here.
I’d be pretty pissed if they killed off Shelyn. She’s been used as a poster child of PF’s queer rep, and it’d be obnoxiously edgy to kill her off given her role in the pantheon.
I don't like this take, as I feel like it diminishes Shelyn as a character. Yes, it's easy to show her artwork with Sarenrae and Desna to a queer person and say "Poly Lesbians=Pathfinder Good" but if you presented me with the same characters with the same dynamic and told me nothing bad and permanent would ever happen to them under threat of being edgy or "burying the gays" I'd roll my eyes. If there are no stakes, there isn't really much of a conflict...

I'm not saying that queer characters should always be immune to death or other stakes. I'm saying that when a character is widely promoted as a queer character and embraced by queer fandom, it'd feel kinda gross if they were then killed off as what is, when it all comes down to it, a marketing gimmick. Because beyond what I'm sure are legitimate storytelling reasons for whatever death is coming, it is also very much being presented as a publicity stunt to hype up War of the Immortals.

The concern about being overly edgy is not about queer rep either, it's a separate concern on my part that killing off a goddess whose role is basically to be kind to everyone and to promote the idea that anyone can be beautiful would feel like it's just trying too hard to be as dark and mean-spirited as possible.


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Shelyn definitely goes into the "more interesting alive than dead" category. Zon Kuthon is just an edgelord without her.


Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Pronate11 wrote:
magnuskn wrote:
Great, now I'm more worried about Saranrae again, now that two of the three people on that cover art we saw were eliminated straight away from consideration and she was not.
Well, pharasma was published first as a birthday present to one of the writers. I would not take her being published first as any sort of sign of things to come. I treat this as if we have 2 data points, Asmodeus and Cailean. You usually need 3 data points to make a trend

Errr, not what I meant. Some weeks ago we were shown a cover to a new book coming out, where Asmodeus, Pharasma and Saranrae were on the cover. Hence me hoping that Saranrae would be eliminated as a death candidate right away, as Asmodeus and Pharasma were. And the reason why now I'm more being nervous about her actually being the one to be killed off, again.


PossibleCabbage wrote:
Gnollvalue wrote:
My current main theory is that Zon-Kuthon dies and Shelyn becomes more distant overall in grief or in pursuit of answers.

Zon-Kuthon is a good bet, since there's a real meta problem of "how do we solve the Nidal problem." Since some of the stuff that's been written about Nidal is dark to a degree that Pathfinder doesn't really do anymore. It just seems weird to say "well, Cheliax doesn't do slavery anymore" (a good change,, IMO) when their neighbor to the north is still kidnapping people to slowly and gruesomely torture to death in service of their warped god.

If Zon-Kuthon gets bisected by his sister, that sets up for Nidal to still be an occasionally horrifying place (There's a lot of vampires around) but less of an overwhelmingly horrific place.

This is one of my bigger guesses. I think my top picks are Torag, Iomedae, and ZK. Members of the Ray are also very strong guesses, and I have this really strong sense that Norgorber is the most likely of the "overlooked options". That guy might know enough to set off a hundred wars, especially if he knows things about the Starstone.

Of the "interesting" (obviously consequential or emotionally devastating) options, I think Gozreh, Nethys, Calistria and Lamashtu are probably safe. Not 100% sure about Rovagug or Urgathoa--the latter was an early guess, but I've weakened on that a lot. If Nethys dies, the War of Immortals might be triggered by a surge in wellspring magic, spellcasting becoming not weaker but wilder and more dangerous. I think he's pretty safe, though.

Dark Archive

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Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I think this one is more interesting less as "what if Cayden Cailean didn't actually complete test of starstone" and more as "Cayden Cailean imposter syndromes himself back to being mortal" :O

But yeah it can be interpreted in multiple ways


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Pathfinder Starfinder Society Subscriber

Personally, my current guess is that it's going to be revealed that these prophecies are actually just saying each of the god's worst fears. That theory would explain the various elements which don't fully make sense for the setting (In this case: Cayden fears the idea that he's just faking it, so his death involves that being the case). Also, The Three Feats of Pharasma does actually list "What's going to happen now that prophesy doesn't work anymore?" as one of her three greatest fears, so her death being caused by that would follow this logic (as would the idea that after her death all the psychopomps would just sit around and do nothing - something Yivali commented as not making sense).


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I can't help but feel like these stories are being weaved by the Grandmother Spider, whose whole modus operandi is the weaver of fates for the other gods, and later worked to humiliate them. It would match with how each prophecy here is basically a story of the worst fate each could hope to avoid.


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Kittyburger wrote:
I had Cayden as living but I also had him being held back for the final reveal because he's one of the most popular gods in the setting. I'm pleasantly surprised, now I'm reshuffling my "who gets revealed, who gets held back, who actually dies" deck again.

You've got your logic backwards. The ones are going to get written about are going to be the most popular or interesting ones that aren't going to die. Like if its not Sarenrae dying, I guarantee we're getting a Sarenrae narrative.

The 9 kept back for the reveal are the ones nobody cares about or who are uninteresting. coughiroricough

Liberty's Edge

Pronate11 wrote:
Well, there goes the theory that these were coming out in order of narrative impact. Glad to see that we will have no clue who's coming next

Well, I was not that far off in my last week's predictions :

The Raven Black wrote:

We are seeing the most cosmic deities for the moment. If it continues, we might have Desna or Zon-Kuthon next.

Or to shake the trend we might have Cayden Cailean or Irori.

I wonder which 10 they will leave hanging to the last.


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PossibleCabbage wrote:
Gnollvalue wrote:
My current main theory is that Zon-Kuthon dies and Shelyn becomes more distant overall in grief or in pursuit of answers.

Zon-Kuthon is a good bet, since there's a real meta problem of "how do we solve the Nidal problem." Since some of the stuff that's been written about Nidal is dark to a degree that Pathfinder doesn't really do anymore. It just seems weird to say "well, Cheliax doesn't do slavery anymore" (a good change,, IMO) when their neighbor to the north is still kidnapping people to slowly and gruesomely torture to death in service of their warped god.

If Zon-Kuthon gets bisected by his sister, that sets up for Nidal to still be an occasionally horrifying place (There's a lot of vampires around) but less of an overwhelmingly horrific place.

This is the other reason besides the PR nightmare (shooting the gay goddess of love and rainbows sure makes a statement even unintentionally) that I think Shelyn is safe. Zon-Kuthon is just way too edgy and I think they're trying to move away from that. And he's an evil god and thus can be killed without immediately getting players up in arms. Shelyn has "good god" protection (same reason I think Sarenrae may make it) and her brother absolutely doesn't.


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My money is on Urgathoa being slain in the opening salvo of an all out divine war, with Arazni on one side and Tar Baphon on the other.

Arazni needs to accomplish something big to earn her promotion to core, so settling the score with Tar Baphon sounds about right. And there are all sorts of ways in which Urgathoa dying might accelerate a conflict between the two (or if not accelerate it, then happen as a result of it).

On the meta side, Urgathoa is not one of the Popular Ones so she's a valid target. Plus, plenty of other gods of undeath exist so she won't leave too big a void behind. And also, if you want the killing of a god to be extra impressive, then killing the goddess whose whole thing is not dying is a good way to do that.


Sy Kerraduess wrote:

My money is on Urgathoa being slain in the opening salvo of an all out divine war, with Arazni on one side and Tar Baphon on the other.

Arazni needs to accomplish something big to earn her promotion to core, so settling the score with Tar Baphon sounds about right. And there are all sorts of ways in which Urgathoa dying might accelerate a conflict between the two (or if not accelerate it, then happen as a result of it).

On the meta side, Urgathoa is not one of the Popular Ones so she's a valid target. Plus, plenty of other gods of undeath exist so she won't leave too big a void behind. And also, if you want the killing of a god to be extra impressive, then killing the goddess whose whole thing is not dying is a good way to do that.

Arazni becoming a deity would be a tantalizing prospect for Tar-Baphon, since his motivation is about killing gods, and this would be seen as him wanting to finish what he started (and to teach Geb a lesson).

Problem is that if Urgathoa dies, Tar-Baphon's phylactery will be discovered and likely destroyed by Arazni, so that narrative would make no sense.


Calliope5431 wrote:
This is the other reason besides the PR nightmare (shooting the gay goddess of love and rainbows sure makes a statement even unintentionally) that I think Shelyn is safe. Zon-Kuthon is just way too edgy and I think they're trying to move away from that. And he's an evil god and thus can be killed without immediately getting players up in arms. Shelyn has "good god" protection (same reason I think Sarenrae may make it) and her brother absolutely doesn't.

I also think ZK is likely to be the one (or at least, the most likely evil deity to be the one), but I don't his edgyness makes him a target. He is edgy and evil in an "unrealistic" way, which is to say that the horrors he dish out aren't the kind that are really found in real life. As such, while he is edgy, he isn't really problematic, so I don't think he would be on the chopping block for this. If an "edgy" or "problematic" domain is what would put a god on the chopping block, Asmodeus and Lamashtu would be far more likely to die (but Asmodeus is already safe, and I don't expect Lamasthu to die either, she's too emblematic and tied to too many plots threads).

The real reason why he is a likely candidate for me is that his domain is pretty narrow, and not usually the kind of stuff new players and GM gravitate toward. And since the core 20 is made to be introductory gods for new players (while more experienced players have no trouble looking deeper into the pantheon if the core 20 don't offer what they're looking for), it's important that the hole in the core 20 left by the dead god doesn't cover options that are too popular. Furthermore, his ties with Sheylin mean that she could absorb part of his portfolio (likely the darkness part without the cenobite torture stuff) to still keep it in the core 20. I think Sheylin is also a likely target for the same reasons.

Liberty's Edge

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Anorak wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:

Remember, we now know for a fact that all of the setting info is intended to be interpreted as and should factually be considered to be coming from an unreliable narrator

We do? Did I miss something during the decades?

It's a fairly recent position, but yes, the operating assumption for the setting and lore info is that most if not all of the information presented that isn't purely mechanical is being presented as written by a character within the setting with their own knowledge, biases, agendas, and perspectives on whatever it is that's being presented about the setting. It's something of a contrivance for how to justify retcons, changes to the setting, creative shifts from older material, and also as a kind of way to make more murky the things that are said about any given thing that the players and GMs aren't directly dealing with at the table to give everything a bit of flexibility in that most stuff can very simply written off or explained by saying the in-world authors who scribe down the setting info and explanations could have been misinformed, ignorant, or just plain lying.

You can learn more about this kind of thing and discussion surrounding it with JJs own input here for more context but the general broad strokes of it is narration of the setting info should be assumed to be unreliable at most times but ESPECIALLY when it's created as a work/article/writing of an in-world NPC such as is the case with all of these blog posts who are penned by someone in-setting.

Grand Lodge

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It's an excellent framing to avoid the complaints that arose about past settings canon being set in stone and having rules lawyers objecting to things that go against established lore. It gives GMs the flexibility to write their own stories without tripping over minutia.

Liberty's Edge

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Themetricsystem wrote:
Anorak wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:

Remember, we now know for a fact that all of the setting info is intended to be interpreted as and should factually be considered to be coming from an unreliable narrator

We do? Did I miss something during the decades?

It's a fairly recent position, but yes, the operating assumption for the setting and lore info is that most if not all of the information presented that isn't purely mechanical is being presented as written by a character within the setting with their own knowledge, biases, agendas, and perspectives on whatever it is that's being presented about the setting. It's something of a contrivance for how to justify retcons, changes to the setting, creative shifts from older material, and also as a kind of way to make more murky the things that are said about any given thing that the players and GMs aren't directly dealing with at the table to give everything a bit of flexibility in that most stuff can very simply written off or explained by saying the in-world authors who scribe down the setting info and explanations could have been misinformed, ignorant, or just plain lying.

You can learn more about this kind of thing and discussion surrounding it with JJs own input here for more context but the general broad strokes of it is narration of the setting info should be assumed to be unreliable at most times but ESPECIALLY when it's created as a work/article/writing of an in-world NPC such as is the case with all of these blog posts who are penned by someone in-setting.

Unreliable does not mean completely false though.


Scarablob wrote:
Calliope5431 wrote:
This is the other reason besides the PR nightmare (shooting the gay goddess of love and rainbows sure makes a statement even unintentionally) that I think Shelyn is safe. Zon-Kuthon is just way too edgy and I think they're trying to move away from that. And he's an evil god and thus can be killed without immediately getting players up in arms. Shelyn has "good god" protection (same reason I think Sarenrae may make it) and her brother absolutely doesn't.

I also think ZK is likely to be the one (or at least, the most likely evil deity to be the one), but I don't his edgyness makes him a target. He is edgy and evil in an "unrealistic" way, which is to say that the horrors he dish out aren't the kind that are really found in real life. As such, while he is edgy, he isn't really problematic, so I don't think he would be on the chopping block for this. If an "edgy" or "problematic" domain is what would put a god on the chopping block, Asmodeus and Lamashtu would be far more likely to die (but Asmodeus is already safe, and I don't expect Lamasthu to die either, she's too emblematic and tied to too many plots threads).

The real reason why he is a likely candidate for me is that his domain is pretty narrow, and not usually the kind of stuff new players and GM gravitate toward. And since the core 20 is made to be introductory gods for new players (while more experienced players have no trouble looking deeper into the pantheon if the core 20 don't offer what they're looking for), it's important that the hole in the core 20 left by the dead god doesn't cover options that are too popular. Furthermore, his ties with Sheylin mean that she could absorb part of his portfolio (likely the darkness part without the cenobite torture stuff) to still keep it in the core 20. I think Sheylin is also a likely target for the same reasons.

Well. Somewhat unrealistic, yes. Though torture is a real world thing and many, many tables would prefer not to engage with that. And it's somewhat controversial in reality.

Also...he's the patron saint of evil BDSM (Laori Vaus is exhibit A). I've heard arguments before that by making him evil and horrible there's a tacit condemnation of BDSM.

I'm not at all saying I agree with that perspective, for the record. But I can see Paizo wanting to purge potentially volatile real life topics and cutting out even the hint of controversy or condemnation there. Much like how they whacked Erastil being pro-patriarchy and Pharasma being anti-abortion. It's not necessarily a matter of whether or not he's irrevocably and irredeemably problematic. Pharasma for instance is a neutral goddess, I don't think you can claim her opinions are an endorsement or condemnation of literally anything by the writers, regardless of what said opinions are. That's why she's morally neutral.

It's a matter of avoiding controversial topics not everyone wants to engage with. Same reason slavery was removed from the setting. Are some people fine with it? Totally. Is everyone okay with it? Not really, no. And nobody wants to look like they're supporting slavery because "well it exists in Absalom!"

Deities in a fantasy game taking a stand or being perceived to take a stand on real life hot-button issues just has a lot of ways it can go sideways. I wouldn't blame them if they decided they don't want to deal with Zon-Kuthon anymore for that reason.

Radiant Oath

Kittyburger wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
Anorak wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
CreepyShutIn wrote:
"Belief makes a god" is perhaps my least favorite description of divinity. I shall be happy to determine that this was delusion.
This has been a core fundamental of the setting from day one (although it took a bit to scrub all of that influence out—certain other TTRPG campaign settings have a lot of influence!), because the idea of a god who has no worshipers active but can still be a god and potentially come back or have secret cults and all that was there from the very start of the Pathfinder Adventure Path in Lissala's story.

Hrmmm this reminds me of Xanderghul for some reason.

So does that mean Razmir could or potentially has become Deific?

I believe JJacobs is saying that Razmir can only become Deific if he either follows a path like Irori (purifies himself to his deific potential) or the Ascended (takes the Test of the Starstone).

(In my headcanon, he's undertaking preparations to become a lich, because he cannot stomach the idea of dying, and if/when he dies, his final fate is going to be rather similar to that of Sisyphus in Greek mythology)

Razmir's biggest challenge to overcome on the path to becoming a deity is that stories about him are more interesting and compelling when he's NOT a deity.
And the (very valid) Doylist explanation rears its head ;)

does it actually count as Doylist? A deity is a story itself. They literally have meta-narative powers.

I'm struck by an image of Razmir as Marvin the depressed Android in starfinder. "Two and a half times as old as Pharasma, and I still haven't become a god."

Radiant Oath

Arachnofiend wrote:
Shelyn definitely goes into the "more interesting alive than dead" category. Zon Kuthon is just an edgelord without her.

Unless Shelyn's death sets Zon-Kuthton back on the path of light. That creates lots of interesting stories.


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AceofMoxen wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Shelyn definitely goes into the "more interesting alive than dead" category. Zon Kuthon is just an edgelord without her.
Unless Shelyn's death sets Zon-Kuthton back on the path of light. That creates lots of interesting stories.

True, but it's also a minefield.

"Kill the happy nice sister so her edgelord brother can be redeemed" gets justifiably panned on a regular basis.

Of course, if there's anyone I trust to navigate that arc well, it's Paizo. I'm just guessing the other way around (with pieces of Zon-Kuthon becoming part of Shelyn) is more likely.

Radiant Oath

Calliope5431 wrote:
AceofMoxen wrote:
Arachnofiend wrote:
Shelyn definitely goes into the "more interesting alive than dead" category. Zon Kuthon is just an edgelord without her.
Unless Shelyn's death sets Zon-Kuthton back on the path of light. That creates lots of interesting stories.

True, but it's also a minefield.

"Kill the happy nice sister so her edgelord brother can be redeemed" gets justifiably panned on a regular basis.

Of course, if there's anyone I trust to navigate that arc well, it's Paizo. I'm just guessing the other way around (with pieces of Zon-Kuthon becoming part of Shelyn) is more likely.

I don't think it would count as a "frigding," because Shelyn wouldn't be forgotten, we had plenty of time with her, and she had other connections. Like, Desna's hair trigger would be pulled, setting up a great conflict.

Dark Archive

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Friding is essentially killing an established character just for another character's pain and development more or less

Anyhoo, I'm not fully convinced that they are going to kill of character just for being edgy, Pathfinder is more family friendly nowadays yes, but 1) there are multiple edgy gods in the evil list 2) they aren't really trying to sanitize the pathfinder (or at least company won't admit to doing so) and I think adventure content still shows that.

I'd be surprised if Paizo really killed off any member of the polycule though because killing off example of positive representation seems unlikely to paizo (though by same token would feel off to kill any of good aligned gods?), though admittedly I think pathfinder follows design guideline of "everyone is bisexual unless stated otherwise, if you need to know for npc romance purposes" if I'm not mistaken?

Liberty's Edge

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Calliope5431 wrote:

Also...he's the patron saint of evil BDSM (Laori Vaus is exhibit A). I've heard arguments before that by making him evil and horrible there's a tacit condemnation of BDSM.

See this is why it pays to stop and think sometimes about what we consume. On the surface level, I've always seen ZK as filling the Body Horror niche and never even stopped to consider the BDSM imagery with ZK or Cenobites. or Body Horror for that matter.

Hmm so while I think you're right even if ZK doesn't die, he should at least be rehabilitated. I'm all for Cenobite ZK because there are people like that in the world who chase their lust so much that it consumes them. But leave that for whatever infected Dou-Bral. Have Dou-Bral come back and be proper BDSM instead of a malicious psychopathic hedonist cenobite.

Themetricsystem wrote:
You can learn more about this kind of thing and discussion surrounding it with JJs own input here for more context but the general broad strokes of it is narration of the setting info should be assumed to be unreliable at most times but ESPECIALLY when it's created as a work/article/writing of an in-world NPC such as is the case with all of these blog posts who are penned by someone in-setting.

Ah ha, so I have missed some important developments! Great looking out!

Grand Lodge

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CorvusMask wrote:

Friding is essentially killing an established character just for another character's pain and development more or less

Anyhoo, I'm not fully convinced that they are going to kill of character just for being edgy, Pathfinder is more family friendly nowadays yes, but 1) there are multiple edgy gods in the evil list 2) they aren't really trying to sanitize the pathfinder (or at least company won't admit to doing so) and I think adventure content still shows that.

I'd be surprised if Paizo really killed off any member of the polycule though because killing off example of positive representation seems unlikely to paizo (though by same token would feel off to kill any of good aligned gods?), though admittedly I think pathfinder follows design guideline of "everyone is bisexual unless stated otherwise, if you need to know for npc romance purposes" if I'm not mistaken?

I really want to see Valeros get a boyfriend, just for a storyline or two (I'm going off of Meri's comment that one way or another he knows what's going on in everybody's pants).

Dark Archive

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Cayden has had flings with most of the popular gods, including one of Torag's sons (and now one of sisters is shipping them together) I think?


Anorak wrote:
Calliope5431 wrote:

Also...he's the patron saint of evil BDSM (Laori Vaus is exhibit A). I've heard arguments before that by making him evil and horrible there's a tacit condemnation of BDSM.

See this is why it pays to stop and think sometimes about what we consume. On the surface level, I've always seen ZK as filling the Body Horror niche and never even stopped to consider the BDSM imagery with ZK or Cenobites. or Body Horror for that matter.

Hmm so while I think you're right even if ZK doesn't die, he should at least be rehabilitated. I'm all for Cenobite ZK because there are people like that in the world who chase their lust so much that it consumes them. But leave that for whatever infected Dou-Bral. Have Dou-Bral come back and be proper BDSM instead of a malicious psychopathic hedonist cenobite.

Yeah I want to make it clear - he's not all about BDSM. But having read and seen a lot of Clive Barker... it's definitely there.

And again, whether or not you think Zon-Kuthon is problematic is somewhat irrelevant. It's whether or not he could be construed that way. It's just not a great position to be in if you're Paizo. Same reason killing Shelyn is unlikely. Regardless of whether or not it actually is fridging, it absolutely can be taken as such and you don't want that.


I love the implications this has on a specific bit in Planar Adventures about Hero's Heart, Cayden's Realm:

Planar Adventures, Page 170 wrote:
The less traveled corners of the fields are home to all manner of labyrinths, ruins, and other examples of dungeoncraft; like the Starstone Cathedral where Cayden ascended, these dungeons constantly shift and evolve, offering the thrill of delving to those who seek such harrowing experiences.

This is on the outskirts of the realm. These challenges aren't arranged by the azatas or Cayden's servants. With the prophecy in mind, those dungeons might be Cayden's nightmares/the Starstone influence manifested, and who knows what secrets they contain if that's the case. Maybe some party might delve there and figure out what happened to Cayden on the cathedral (this could be used either to hurt Cayden or helping him overcome his insecurity with proof that he passed the test fair and square, both cool ideas to explore in a game).

Milani has a small realm there, she might know something.


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I think the problem with ZK is less that he's problematic (he is the evil BDSM god, but Calistria is literally called The Savored Sting) and more that he's a little closer to the R-rating than their core material is really aiming for nowadays. Like, the core material is marketed as pretty close to all-ages. Zon-Kuthon is a core deity, but it's pretty hard to create a non-disruptive cleric for him in a typical campaign.

You can minimize the slavery stuff for a cleric of Asmodeus, the sex stuff from a cleric of Calistria, the hedonism and cannibalism from a cleric of Urgathoa, or even the birthing imagery/monster-boinking from a cleric of Lamashtu, and they'll work okay-ish in a nonevil or prudish party. They can blend in. They can focus on other aspects and be mostly fine.

But if Zon-Kuthon isn't a god of BDSM, he's a god of self-harm and torture. There's not a lot left if you dial him back past that.

A skilled player can totally make a non-disruptive Zon-Kuthon PC. They can also do that for the Green Mother. There's a reason the Green Mother isn't emphasized a ton as a PC option. and the reason is COWARDICE

But seriously, Naderi's another great example. Great goddess, hard to play well. And for what it's worth, most evil gods are challenging to play clerics for in a typical party! But Zon-Kuthon might be the hardest aside from Rovagug. He's just flat-out not a great fit for even some evil-aligned parties. A cleric of Zon-Kuthon is bound to harm themselves, restricted from giving comfort to suffering allies. No other core god has a code that inherently yucky.

If he isn't dying, I think a pseudo-redemption like Nocticula's, or at least a gradual reframing like what's happening with Lamashtu's anathemas, may be at hand for good old ZK.


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Dark Oni wrote:
With the prophecy in mind, those dungeons might be Cayden's nightmares/the Starstone influence manifested

Ooh, wait, fringe theory set off by this: What if all these stories are nightmares of the deity who's actually about to die? A goddess of the night whose dreams are so powerful they manifest as false prophecies?

Man, family gatherings must be so awkward when Shelyn takes her girlfriends and Desna and Zon-Kuthon have to interact. Like, sure, Sarenrae and ZK don't get along, but Zon-Kuthon must be like Desna's super rude coworker who's constantly undermining her projects and eating her bagels.

Liberty's Edge

Ravien999 wrote:
Kittyburger wrote:
I had Cayden as living but I also had him being held back for the final reveal because he's one of the most popular gods in the setting. I'm pleasantly surprised, now I'm reshuffling my "who gets revealed, who gets held back, who actually dies" deck again.

You've got your logic backwards. The ones are going to get written about are going to be the most popular or interesting ones that aren't going to die. Like if its not Sarenrae dying, I guarantee we're getting a Sarenrae narrative.

The 9 kept back for the reveal are the ones nobody cares about or who are uninteresting. coughiroricough

The Master of the Ways is an incredibly interesting deity that has a significant following and one would do well to consider that just because one has not seen a Way, that it is no less valid.

If they pass on in the Way of all things, then philosophically that is appropriate. To call Irori 'uninteresting' is akin to saying 'may no one remember anything about you'.

Which, to the Iroran Way, is one of the most horrific curses one can imagine.

Acquisitives

Kobold Catgirl wrote:
Dark Oni wrote:
With the prophecy in mind, those dungeons might be Cayden's nightmares/the Starstone influence manifested

Ooh, wait, fringe theory set off by this: What if all these stories are nightmares of the deity who's actually about to die? A goddess of the night whose dreams are so powerful they manifest as false prophecies?

Man, family gatherings must be so awkward when Shelyn takes her girlfriends and Desna and Zon-Kuthon have to interact. Like, sure, Sarenrae and ZK don't get along, but Zon-Kuthon must be like Desna's super rude coworker who's constantly undermining her projects and eating her bagels.

Or those annoying folks at the tavern who seem to think that being one gender or ancestry or another is a free license to grab at one's tail.

But that's customers.

Which would then link back to Abadar.

Hmmmm...

DEATH TO THE DRAGON OLIGARCHS!

...and then we can get some beers and liberate a hotel room for a party after in the name of the Drunken Hero.


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Personally, I kind of hope that the deity who dies is one who's unambiguously around during Starfinder, just to see what all theories people come up with for "okay this is how they came back during the Gap". (It'd also work as a kind of consolation for fans of the deceased, like "they're not going to be around for the rest of Pathfinder, but they're not gone for good".)

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Themetricsystem wrote:
Anorak wrote:
Themetricsystem wrote:

Remember, we now know for a fact that all of the setting info is intended to be interpreted as and should factually be considered to be coming from an unreliable narrator

We do? Did I miss something during the decades?

It's a fairly recent position, but yes, the operating assumption for the setting and lore info is that most if not all of the information presented that isn't purely mechanical is being presented as written by a character within the setting with their own knowledge, biases, agendas, and perspectives on whatever it is that's being presented about the setting. It's something of a contrivance for how to justify retcons, changes to the setting, creative shifts from older material, and also as a kind of way to make more murky the things that are said about any given thing that the players and GMs aren't directly dealing with at the table to give everything a bit of flexibility in that most stuff can very simply written off or explained by saying the in-world authors who scribe down the setting info and explanations could have been misinformed, ignorant, or just plain lying.

You can learn more about this kind of thing and discussion surrounding it with JJs own input here for more context but the general broad strokes of it is narration of the setting info should be assumed to be unreliable at most times but ESPECIALLY when it's created as a work/article/writing of an in-world NPC such as is the case with all of these blog posts who are penned by someone in-setting.

While there is definitely an element of unreliable narration included in the recent setting material (and I agree with TOZ's point that it's an excellent way to help minimize the difficulties with adjusting old lore, whether because of changes in perspective of the authors, or just it not fitting the direction the setting is moving), your original post stated it a little differently:

Themetricsystem wrote:
Folks sure are making a LOT of assumptions that Razmir is in fact not a Deity, true and proper. Remember, we now know for a fact that all of the setting info is intended to be interpreted as and should factually be considered to be coming from an unreliable narrator and therefore subject to misinformation, bias, and loaded with inaccuracies.

(bolding mine)

From everything I've read/heard, it seems like we're in a situation where they're using the idea of an unreliable narrator for setting material to facilitate potential changes, and to allow engagement with stories that don't easily work with objective statements of fact (like their engagement with stories about the creation of the universe, or times long since past). Expecting all setting material to be loaded with inaccuracies is a pretty huge leap from there, in my opinion, and would (at least for me) be a pretty significant source of frustration with the material if it were true. I'll be operating on the assumption that the vast majority of what we read will be true, unless it is framed in such a way as to doubt that - about something that is difficult to know, from a source that is expected to be significantly biased on the topic, etc.


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I'm seeing quotes both ways, but I'm team there's kernels if not a whole lot of truth here. Just not the actual dying part.

I know I am woefully remiss in my Pathfinder tales reading, but, at least on the descriptions I've skimmed I don't recall _anything_ with godly pov. Please point me to where it is if I'm missing it, cause I need more, now that I have tasted. And I am soaking this in. How can I know a character truly until I've seen through their eyes? And as these prophecies are seeming to reveal, potentially their greatest fear / anxieties.
Golarion has always been a neat varied setting but this is dragging me deeper, and I am here for it.


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Kobold Catgirl wrote:
But if Zon-Kuthon isn't a god of BDSM, he's a god of self-harm and torture. There's not a lot left if you dial him back past that.

Darkness and the fear to be found within it, and becoming that fear.

Loss, how both survive and inflict it.

Surviving your pain and showing others how it feels.

"That which does not kill us makes us stronger" taken exactly as it is written without giving a moment's thought to all of the ways that statement isn't inherently true.

Expanding your sensorium through ever-more intense physical and mental trials to achieve self-mastery.

"It's what you can take, and what you can dish out."

"At first you don't think you can stand to get hit, then you realize you can take it 'cause the blood don't matter, and you know you're gonna live. It's a great gift I'm goin' to give you - to know it don't hurt to fight!"

Now, sure, ol' Zonny's right out of Clive Barker, and that guy never met a disturbing BDSM-with-only-the-most-tenuous-implied-consent angle he didn't like, and could be the lines are thin, but...Laori the chipper kinkster honestly feels like an outlier when set against what Kuthites usually get up to. Hell, I seem to recall her CotCT write-up being pretty clear on that.


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Jan Caltrop wrote:
Personally, I kind of hope that the deity who dies is one who's unambiguously around during Starfinder, just to see what all theories people come up with for "okay this is how they came back during the Gap". (It'd also work as a kind of consolation for fans of the deceased, like "they're not going to be around for the rest of Pathfinder, but they're not gone for good".)

I'm likewise hoping for something like that, but to hammer home that Starfinder is its own continuity.


Cole Deschain wrote:
Kobold Catgirl wrote:
But if Zon-Kuthon isn't a god of BDSM, he's a god of self-harm and torture. There's not a lot left if you dial him back past that.

Darkness and the fear to be found within it, and becoming that fear.

Loss, how both survive and inflict it.

Surviving your pain and showing others how it feels.

"That which does not kill us makes us stronger" taken exactly as it is written without giving a moment's thought to all of the ways that statement isn't inherently true.

Expanding your sensorium through ever-more intense physical and mental trials to achieve self-mastery.

"It's what you can take, and what you can dish out."

"At first you don't think you can stand to get hit, then you realize you can take it 'cause the blood don't matter, and you know you're gonna live. It's a great gift I'm goin' to give you - to know it don't hurt to fight!"

Now, sure, ol' Zonny's right out of Clive Barker, and that guy never met a disturbing BDSM-with-only-the-most-tenuous-implied-consent angle he didn't like, and could be the lines are thin, but...Laori the chipper kinkster honestly feels like an outlier when set against what Kuthites usually get up to. Hell, I seem to recall her CotCT write-up being pretty clear on that.

Yeah I love Laori but that's fair...still. Edgy BDSM all the same.

He's just. So. Grimdark.


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Calliope5431 wrote:
He's just. So. Grimdark.

Yeah, but... so's Lamashtu. So's Nordberg. So Azzamatazz.

In general, most evil deities are quite capable of becoming pizza cutters depending on how they're handled.

Not saying being a weird self-mutilating sweat goblin makes Zonny-boy safe, he could well get it in the neck, especially with Asmodeus confirmed to still be around to do duty as an evil tyrant deity, but it's not as if he's especially in need of being sandpapered by comparison to anyone else on the Monstrous Pregnancy/Skinsaw Cult/Entire Empire Undergirded By Literal Deals With Devils spectrum


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Cole Deschain wrote:
Calliope5431 wrote:
He's just. So. Grimdark.

Yeah, but... so's Lamashtu. So's Nordberg. So Azzamatazz.

In general, most evil deities are quite capable of becoming pizza cutters depending on how they're handled.

Not saying being a weird self-mutilating sweat goblin makes Zonny-boy safe, he could well get it in the neck, especially with Asmodeus confirmed to still be around to do duty as an evil tyrant deity, but it's not as if he's especially in need of being sandpapered by comparison to anyone else on the Monstrous Pregnancy/Skinsaw Cult/Entire Empire Undergirded By Literal Deals With Devils spectrum

I'll give you Lamashtu. Norgorber though...you can DO a story about Norgorber without being edgy. Sure, he's the god of serial killers, but he's also the god of poison, the god of blackmail, and the god of thieves' guilds. Lots of different villain options.

Asmodeus is, well, the devil guy and honestly not that bad. "Deal with the devil" is not that edgy, all things considered. Also, we know he's safe and he's critical to the setting.

Zon-Kuthon? He's a walking sharps container. If you poke him, you're going to get sliced. And he's not as important overall.

Dark Archive

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Thing about ZK is that they aren't going to remove Velstracs, so removing him from core 20 just because he is dark would kinda sound like... Trying to sweep something under the rug that they are going to do anyway?

(I believe whoever dies is chosen because their death makes for good story and not because developers wanted to get rid of them, it'd be troublesome for me if that was the case because it might really damage my trust in paizo, plus possible arguments caused by it ^^;)

Dark Archive

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But yeah I don't believe ZK is the one to die, but here are three reasons I'd prefer to "because he is the torture god"

1) Nidal is kinda unassailable as bad guys, unlike Cheliax(both because nature of their pacts with evil gods differ and because Nidal is an isolationist country so they only have cameos rather than as main antagonists), so ZK being taken out of picture could open Nidal to more stories

2) it could be chance to explore what Dou-Bral discovered outside the multiverse in canon

3) It could be chance to explore what happens to Star Towers and have plotline of Rovagug's prison needing reinforcement or else risk of apocalypse happening

I really think decision who dies should be made in terms of "what plots their death opens up for setting"

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