Player Core Preview: Spells and Spellcasting, Remastered

Captain Morgan wrote:

The default seems to be 3d4 for single target to start, or 2d4 plus a significant rider, multi target, or niche benefit.

Oh that's quite good. I'd take 3d4 over d4+4 any day. I think it equals or outperforms it 70% of the time.

I'd too. But I don't believe 3d4 is actually the base. 2d4 is the base. 1d4 when it exists is that significant rider and should be for a price. It's just a Needle Darts is an outlier, and is already fixed in PFS: 'Any spells which require metal to function (such as needle darts [page 144]) require the PC to be holding at least one chunk of that metal or an item made of that metal.' So, that's the price.

The Raven Black wrote:

I believe Shocking Grasp being the inescapable bread and butter of the Magus is not a good thing for the game.

Then make more melee spell attacks? Like there are only 14 arcane slot spells that work with normal spell strike and several which aren't that great with it (scorching ray and ray of enfeeblement for example), I don't think it was needed for that number to be lowered.

It affects the first few levels of magus and barely matters there. At level 1 horizon thunder sphere lags shocking grasp by 2.5 points of damage (3d6 ~ 10.5 and 2d12 ~ 13) and the gap closes completely at higher level.

If an extra 2.5 points of damage once per day at level 1 is your hill to die on I am concerned.

In all seriousness though I am guessing that there are more spells in those two player cores than in old core + APG. Simply because they have a lot more room than before since they have two player - facing books rather than a player facing book and a catchall book.

Just a guess, obviously.

Ignition has only 2d4 and the 'rider' is persistent on a crit, which also existed for Produce Flame.

And 2d6 as a melee spell, iirc too

"rather than having a player need to learn how splash damage works for the purposes of a single spell the way acid splash did."

https://2e.aonprd.com/Spells.aspx?ID=1331
Doh!
Acid Splash wasn't the only splash spell, they just added the second splash spell ever in Rage of Elements: Exploding Earth. And it does... bludgeoning splash damage? Thats kinda weird, but it makes sense in context, earth is flying out in a radius and smacking people.
I'm guessing RoE went to print before they decided to get rid of splash as a spell effect! haha. Wonder if they'll errata Exploding Earth then?

Either way, I think its sad, I think they should have leaned into the splash trait and made more spells with it, instead of abandoning it for spells. I thought it was a really cool different effect, and I'd rather have more different and unique choices rather than more of the same type of AoE effects.

Shocking Grasp should have been a cantrip, not a 1st-level spell.

Electric Jolt sounds more powerful than a cantrip IMO, especially if you can select one or two targets with it.

Errenor wrote:

Ignition has only 2d4 and the 'rider' is persistent on a crit, which also existed for Produce Flame.

And 2d6 as a melee spell, iirc too

Yup, which makes it slightly better in melee than before, and also scales significantly better. Hello, Magus.

Yea, Produce flame is a 2d6 melee cantrip than has a significant bonus effect that you can still use it at range. I have a feeling gouging claw will get something similar to make up for its lower damage, or they might go crazy and make it like 3d6.

Captain Morgan wrote:

MEATSHED wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

I believe Shocking Grasp being the inescapable bread and butter of the Magus is not a good thing for the game.

Then make more melee spell attacks? Like there are only 14 arcane slot spells that work with normal spell strike and several which aren't that great with it (scorching ray and ray of enfeeblement for example), I don't think it was needed for that number to be lowered.

Again, we don't actually know that the overall number was lowered. We know 2 were "removed" while still being eligible for use, and that dozens of new spells will be added, any of which could fill the now vacant mechanical niche.

I don't really see it happening is the thing, there has been 2 new slotted attack spells printed after secrets of magic, paizo just doesn't make them a lot (which makes sense given people's problems with spell attacks, just kind of sucks for magi.)

(I would like to make a small edit to this as it is false, rage of elements does have 3 spell attacks, none of them have the attack trait for some reason)

I don't think the magus was designed with the intention of using spell slots for spellstrike with much, if any, frequency. Given the comment in this very thread by one of the designers stating they rely on their cantrips more than anything

I don't think the magus was designed with the intention of using spell slots for spellstrike with much, if any, frequency. Given the comment in this very thread by one of the designers stating they rely on their cantrips more than anything

I do mostly rely on cantrips. It seems the spell slots were for big spike damage on occasion with some powerful attack spell.

I do rely on my cantrips for spellstrike. After level 5 I'll generally only prepare 1 attack roll spell

Doesn't horizon thunder sphere and hydrologic push catch up to shocking grasp at spell rank 5 anyways? The difference before that isn't that big of a deal either.

Exactly and I like the crit riders on those spells better

Every class except kineticist is getting reprinted right? Because yeah, psychic needs an update for oscillating wave and for any other special cantrips that are changing with the remaster.

Every class except kineticist is getting reprinted right? Because yeah, psychic needs an update for oscillating wave and for any other special cantrips that are changing with the remaster.

At least right now only 16 are getting reprinted. 8 in each player core.

Ex: Magus is not getting reprinted.

Player Core 1 and 2 will cover the 16 classes in the original Core Rulebook and the Advanced Players Guide. Reprints of classes in later books (Magus and Summoner from Secrets of Magic, Gunslinger and Inventor from Guns and Gears, Psychic and Thaumaturge from Dark Archive) have as far as I know not been announced yet.

Doesn't horizon thunder sphere and hydrologic push catch up to shocking grasp at spell rank 5 anyways? The difference before that isn't that big of a deal either.

Horizon Thunder Sphere does.

Hydraulic Push is written so the double damage doesn't double beyond the base damage. Lack of double damage on a hit isn't as good for crit damage.

As long as you can get through to disintegrate.

Yeah, that's odd. I assume hydraulic push will be cleaned up in the remaster.

Yeah, that's odd. I assume hydraulic push will be cleaned up in the remaster.

Oh yes that spell is weird.

But yeah sphere is fine. It's basically the same as shocking grasp.

Player Core 1 and 2 will cover the 16 classes in the original Core Rulebook and the Advanced Players Guide. Reprints of classes in later books (Magus and Summoner from Secrets of Magic, Gunslinger and Inventor from Guns and Gears, Psychic and Thaumaturge from Dark Archive) have as far as I know not been announced yet.

Not reprints but IIRC errata have been mentioned as a likely way to update the content of non-Remastered books to the new rules.

Every class except kineticist is getting reprinted right? Because yeah, psychic needs an update for oscillating wave and for any other special cantrips that are changing with the remaster.

You can still use Produce Flame, so Oscillating Wave does not actually need an update/errata.

Maybe this, in addition to getting away from the OGL names, is why many spells have different names in addition to different abilities.

And maybe in time they will update Oscillating Wave to reference Ignition instead (which does not seem unfeasible at first glance).

It seems that we are getting the best of both worlds, with the new content being in addition to the old one.

Except for things that keep the same name, where it is an either/or as always for errata. Core classes are the main culprits there.

So, I expect PFS rules to align to the Remastered versions when these exist but to keep pre-Remaster spells, items ... still available like they were before.

For example, Shocking Grasp.

Unless they put into place a ruling specific to this spell to ban it from PFS, as they already do for many other things.

Seems spells in the remaster are generally getting buffed which is fine by me. I'm mixed on the cantrip changes but it looks like they'll be more varied and useful. No longer will electric arc be king.

I don't think the magus was designed with the intention of using spell slots for spellstrike with much, if any, frequency. Given the comment in this very thread by one of the designers stating they rely on their cantrips more than anything

Cascading Ray, the Spellstriker Staff, Meteoric Spellstrike, Lunging Spellstrike, most uses of Expansive Spellstrike all kind of disagree with that. They are at least designed to give bonuses to, if not explicitly support, Spellstriking with a slotted spell. (Sustaining Steel, too.) While it's certainly not mandatory to use your spell slots on attack-roll spells, it's at least a compelling option.

In other words... You don't use your spell slots in trivial or moderate encounters. You really want to concentrate most/all against the hardest encounter of the adventuring day. In order to actually do that, you need one slot to first-round buff, maybe a reaction spell, and then what? For me, it's at least one slotted spell to kill a single-target enemy as quickly as possible, because that's my role in the party-- it's certainly not to buff myself and others, or inflict status effects, or Demoralize, or use combat maneuvers. It's to make strong attacks, and it's hard to beat a True Strike into a Shocking Grasp Spellstrike (until you get Disintegrate and Polar Ray).

At low levels you might work in a long-duration buff (i.e. Longstrider or False Life). You might stock up on True Strike and Magic Weapon-- both at least as compelling as a slotted damage spell early on. But even then you want those burst turns against CR+2 enemies to just end a fight ASAP.

PF2 Magus waw designed with using max level spells for spellstrike. Its why invented wavecasting instead of just giving them "Warpriest" casting (which support buffs a lot more).

* P.S. Just in case, note that I don't like the fact Magus is so focused on just spellstrikes. But it is still a fact that is what they do in this edition.

I do rely on my cantrips for spellstrike. After level 5 I'll generally only prepare 1 attack roll spell

Well, as you level, other options open up. You can get Imaginary Weapon at 6 from Psychic dedication. You can get Fused Staff at 8 to power Spellstrikes with staff charges, or Standby Spell at 8 to not slot a Spellstrike at all.

And when you're preparing 1 attack roll spell, that's 25% of your spell slots.

Riddlyn wrote:

I do rely on my cantrips for spellstrike. After level 5 I'll generally only prepare 1 attack roll spell

Well, as you level, other options open up. You can get Imaginary Weapon at 6 from Psychic dedication. You can get Fused Staff at 8 to power Spellstrikes with staff charges, or Standby Spell at 8 to not slot a Spellstrike at all.

And when you're preparing 1 attack roll spell, that's 25% of your spell slots.

Yep the same number of high level spells as the full casters get. Funny that.

PF2 Magus waw designed with using max level spells for spellstrike. Its why invented wavecasting instead of just giving them "Warpriest" casting (which support buffs a lot more).

* P.S. Just in case, note that I don't like the fact Magus is so focused on just spellstrikes. But it is still a fact that is what they do in this edition.

What was said was:

One thing to keep in mind is that magi have extremely limited slots and are more reliant on their cantrips and focus spells. Ignition is a significant buff for the magus with how it boosts their basic routine compared to produce flame, while thunderstrike is much better for classes like the wizard, who are significantly more reliant on their slotted spells.

Giving too micro a look at a specific interaction can lead to missing a broader macro picture where each kind of class and character got buffs in the places they most needed it.

Which is what I brought up. Slotted spells are meant to be used to do damage sometimes. You ought to remember that if you're using a staff for true strike, staff of divination, you aren't using it for damage spells and your actual slots are extremely limited. They do go all the way to 9 as a compromise. So they can cast spells and be a blend of magic and martial and so that they can slot in some spells to get near max damage with them. It's just that you'll probably do this 2 times a day, you can do it 4 times but then leaning perhaps too hard into being a one trick pony. The magus can use spells like wall of stone as well as any full caster and it would be a shame to not take advantage of that

Temperans wrote:

PF2 Magus waw designed with using max level spells for spellstrike. Its why invented wavecasting instead of just giving them "Warpriest" casting (which support buffs a lot more).

* P.S. Just in case, note that I don't like the fact Magus is so focused on just spellstrikes. But it is still a fact that is what they do in this edition.

What was said was:

Michael Sayre wrote:

One thing to keep in mind is that magi have extremely limited slots and are more reliant on their cantrips and focus spells. Ignition is a significant buff for the magus with how it boosts their basic routine compared to produce flame, while thunderstrike is much better for classes like the wizard, who are significantly more reliant on their slotted spells.

Giving too micro a look at a specific interaction can lead to missing a broader macro picture where each kind of class and character got buffs in the places they most needed it.

Which is what I brought up. Slotted spells are meant to be used to do damage sometimes. You ought to remember that if you're using a staff for true strike, staff of divination, you aren't using it for damage spells and your actual slots are extremely limited. They do go all the way to 9 as a compromise. So they can cast spells and be a blend of magic and martial and so that they can slot in some spells to get near max damage with them. It's just that you'll probably do this 2 times a day, you can do it 4 times but then leaning perhaps too hard into being a one trick pony. The magus can use spells like wall of stone as well as any full caster and it would be a shame to not take advantage of that

I mean, that Sayre quote is just factually incorrect about the Magus. Ignition is at best a very minor buff to a Magus with Gouging Claw-- pretty much only a significant one if the Magus is dumping INT, which is rarely recommended.

And then the "too micro" quote when there simply isn't another single-target touch attack roll spell in the game? The micro is important when you're talking about replacing the "only one" of something, especially when it's the rank 1 option.

Now, perhaps another slotted spell "replaces" the single-target touch spell nature of Shocking Grasp but does a different type of damage. In which case everything we're discussing is insignificant. But given there aren't other options

For your other points, I've found that I generally have enough Hero Points and casts of True Strike from other means (low level archetype slots, Studious Spells, Ring of Wizardry, Endless Grimoire) that it's not necessary to use the staff charges for more, although it's an efficient source of them if you don't choose the other options. That said, it's hard for a lot of the archetypes to even use a staff in that manner, since Fused Staff doesn't let you cast True Strike without shifting the weapon into staff form, RAW. (If your GM rules you can, or your Spellstriker Staff can cast True Strike while it's shifted into weapon form which is unclear, or you're Twisting Tree, or you'll just suffer with a lower weapon damage die, then maybe that's the best plan.)

As for Wall of Stone, it depends on party composition and role. If you already have an Arcane or Primal caster who can cast that Wall of Stone, you are very possibly better off doing damage instead of crowd control. And Wall of Stone is very much a multi-target encounter winner-- but in the general case, those fights are easier than single-target encounters and may not be when a Magus should be using their limited slots for the day.

Picking full-caster utility spells on a Magus is just taking away the thing they're best at and uniquely suited to do-- magical burst damage with melee proficiency. You'd be much better off being a full caster if you want to cast things like Wall of Stone on your most significant turns. (Although getting a Spellstrike-capable Focus Spell is enough to allow utility spell slots, though that marginalizes Conflux Spells.)

AestheticDialectic wrote:

Temperans wrote:

PF2 Magus waw designed with using max level spells for spellstrike. Its why invented wavecasting instead of just giving them "Warpriest" casting (which support buffs a lot more).

* P.S. Just in case, note that I don't like the fact Magus is so focused on just spellstrikes. But it is still a fact that is what they do in this edition.

What was said was:

Michael Sayre wrote:

One thing to keep in mind is that magi have extremely limited slots and are more reliant on their cantrips and focus spells. Ignition is a significant buff for the magus with how it boosts their basic routine compared to produce flame, while thunderstrike is much better for classes like the wizard, who are significantly more reliant on their slotted spells.

Giving too micro a look at a specific interaction can lead to missing a broader macro picture where each kind of class and character got buffs in the places they most needed it.

Which is what I brought up. Slotted spells are meant to be used to do damage sometimes. You ought to remember that if you're using a staff for true strike, staff of divination, you aren't using it for damage spells and your actual slots are extremely limited. They do go all the way to 9 as a compromise. So they can cast spells and be a blend of magic and martial and so that they can slot in some spells to get near max damage with them. It's just that you'll probably do this 2 times a day, you can do it 4 times but then leaning perhaps too hard into being a one trick pony. The magus can use spells like wall of stone as well as any full caster and it would be a shame to not take advantage of that

I mean, that Sayre quote is just factually incorrect about the Magus. Ignition is at best a very minor buff to a Magus with Gouging Claw-- pretty much only a significant one if the Magus is dumping INT, which is rarely recommended.

And then the "too micro" quote when there simply isn't another single-target touch...

Cantrips will not be using stat modifier to damage anymore.

And I believe attack spells will not be balanced for being melee by having extra high damage anymore, since this is what made Shocking Grasp the unbalanced goto spell for the Magus. Ignition is likely a good hint of things to come on that side.

I mean, that Sayre quote is just factually incorrect about the Magus. Ignition is at best a very minor buff to a Magus with Gouging Claw-- pretty much only a significant one if the Magus is dumping INT, which is rarely recommended.

And then the "too micro" quote when there simply isn't another single-target touch attack roll spell in the game? The micro is important when you're talking about replacing the "only one" of something, especially when it's the rank 1 option.

Now, perhaps another slotted spell "replaces" the single-target touch spell nature of Shocking Grasp but does a different type of damage. In which case everything we're discussing is insignificant. But given there aren't other options

For your other points, I've found that I generally have enough Hero Points and casts of True Strike from other means (low level archetype slots, Studious Spells, Ring of Wizardry, Endless Grimoire) that it's not necessary to use the staff charges for more, although it's an efficient source of them if you don't choose the other options. That said, it's hard for a lot of the archetypes to even use a staff in that manner, since Fused Staff doesn't let you cast True Strike without shifting the weapon into staff form, RAW. (If your GM rules you can, or your Spellstriker Staff can cast True Strike while it's shifted into weapon form which is unclear, or you're Twisting Tree, or you'll just suffer with a lower weapon damage die, then maybe that's the best plan.)

As for Wall of Stone, it depends on party composition and role. If you already have an Arcane or Primal caster who can cast that Wall of Stone, you are very possibly better off doing damage instead of crowd control. And Wall of Stone is very much a multi-target encounter winner-- but in the general case, those fights are easier than single-target encounters and may not be when a Magus should be using their limited slots for the day.

Picking full-caster utility spells on a Magus is just taking away the thing they're best at and uniquely suited to do-- magical burst damage with melee proficiency. You'd be much better off being a full caster if you want to cast things like Wall of Stone on your most significant turns. (Although getting a Spellstrike-capable Focus Spell is enough to allow utility spell slots, though that marginalizes Conflux Spells.)

Endless grimiore might not work on a magus, the requirement is you can prepare a spell of the appropriate level. Since you won't have the slots due to wave casting you technically can't prepare a spell of that level

If you use the grimoire during your daily preparations and are capable of preparing spells of the appropriate level, the grimoire's nature leaks into your mind, allowing you to prepare an additional 1st-level spell.

On the rest, archetype is nice if you are playing a free archetype game. My current one I am implying a magus and we aren't doing free archetype, and more over I grabbed sentinel for heavy armor. I'm perplexed you brought up staves giving you more slotted spells but then bring up it not working unless you're twisting tree. Studious spells does give more slots you can put true-strike into, it also has other uses. Personally I think studious spells shouldn't have that wave cast function and instead give 2 slots per rank up to rank 4 with the limitation, but that is neither here nor there.

On cantrips, The Raven Black said it already, but all cantrips are getting stats removed. So gouging claw and inginition will likely be about the same in terms of damage

Lastly wall of stone is one example, but yes if you have a wizard using some of these spells is less necessary but you have the whole arcane list. You ought to utilize what you can from it. Being a one trick pony is fine, but you're not using all your tools to your advantage

Tooosk wrote:

The interesting thing is that Shocking Grasp isn't even the only attack-roll spell removal being previewed here-- Acid Splash is going from an attack-roll to a save, too.

There are already very few options with attack-roll spells-- one reason Shocking Grasp is popular with Magi is because there aren't all that many spell choices for Magi in the first place.

Shocking Grasp itself isn't a huge deal since it's already almost replaced by Horizon Thunder Sphere, just at a slight nerf. Acid Splash OTOH is a cantrip damage coverage problem that almost certainly won't have an easy replacement, other than taking Acid Arrow as a slotted spell to replace it. (Or simply being less capable as a class.)

Magus could need Expansive Spellstrike errata'd into a class feature if Paizo is going to remove all these spell attack rolls.

You serious? What self respecting Magus was using Acid Splash for spell strike? The spell with bad damage, bad scaling, and splash that would hurt yourself? I can barely justify its existence for regular casters who don't get splashed back.

And why are you concerned when we already have the cantrip Ignition, which deals 2d6 melee damage and adds another d6 each spell rank? Or Needle Darts, which starts at 3d4 and basically gives you free cold iron, silver, and adamantine spell strike options?

My real problem with this change is with Elemental Wrath. I use this with my magus as a workaround to solve the Attack of Oportunity Reactive Strike problems to melee magus because the Elemental Wrath changes the Acid Splash to verbal concentration only.

If the Elemental Wrath becomes linked to Caustic Blast I will be forced to get Expansive Spellstrike to keep this working.

I hope this would be changed to another attack cantrip instead.

People really are hyperfocusing on one thing in a very unhealthy way. I mean I get it when people become upset about their favourites changing and it's a bit of a bummer if we don't get a good electricity damage option somewhere, but hell, quite a few of you are acting like the Magus' entire being revolved around Shocking Grasp.

Meanwhile I'm over here looking at the focus point changes and wondering why I would ever touch my slots (and often my cantrips) for attacks every again. Pretty much as Michael said, though probably not with quite this in mind. For the "great" cost of a second level feat (Psychic Dedication), I get a focus spell that does almost the same damage as a highest level SG plus a pushback for shenanigans/damage mitigation on top. That I can spam every fight without even looking at my slots. Instead I can use my slots for problems I cannot simply hit harder or simply hit even harder in other ways. Meaning overall my Magus will become objectively stronger than the pre-change variant relying on Shocking Grasp ever could have been.

And people are complaining???????

Cantrips will not be using stat modifier to damage anymore.

And I believe attack spells will not be balanced for being melee by having extra high damage anymore, since this is what made Shocking Grasp the unbalanced goto spell for the Magus. Ignition is likely a good hint of things to come on that side.

If they errata Gouging Claw (which is from Secrets of Magic and thus not on the Remaster schedule) to have another damage die instead of modifier, it will be identical in damage to Ignition. Whether it changes or not, Ignition is no significant improvement.

Shocking Grasp by itself isn't unbalanced. It's very clearly balanced for melee-range single-target damage. There's nothing wrong with melee-range damage spells in the same way that there's nothing wrong with melee martials doing more damage than ranged martials.

The only issue of it being overpowered is Starlit Span's "You can deliver the spell even if its range is shorter than the range increment of your ranged attack", but even that is barely stronger than Reach Spell.

For the "great" cost of a second level feat (Psychic Dedication), I get a focus spell that does almost the same damage as a highest level SG plus a pushback for shenanigans/damage mitigation on top.

Actually it's two feats to get Imaginary Weapon, at 2nd and 6th level, which now competes with Attack of Opportunity on a class with no built-in reactions unless you take reaction spells. And you don't get it until 6th level, a quarter or possibly just half of the game you're playing, after the levels which Shocking Grasp is best at-- it is obsoleted by Disintegrate and Polar Ray at higher levels. (But with the Focus Point changes, getting as many Focus Points in your pool as possible is now pretty much a build requirement.)

But that's beside the point. The point is that the designer is implying that it's okay to replace a favorite Magus spell with one that Wizards will like more, because Magi use cantrips anyway. Except no, that's not clearly the design-- if not then they have some feats to rewrite. When you give a class 4 to 6 spell slots to use, they care about what's in those slots!

What feat does the magus need at 6th to use imaginary weapon?

Psi development.

People really are hyperfocusing on one thing in a very unhealthy way. I mean I get it when people become upset about their favourites changing and it's a bit of a bummer if we don't get a good electricity damage option somewhere, but hell, quite a few of you are acting like the Magus' entire being revolved around Shocking Grasp.

Meanwhile I'm over here looking at the focus point changes and wondering why I would ever touch my slots (and often my cantrips) for attacks every again. Pretty much as Michael said, though probably not with quite this in mind. For the "great" cost of a second level feat (Psychic Dedication), I get a focus spell that does almost the same damage as a highest level SG plus a pushback for shenanigans/damage mitigation on top. That I can spam every fight without even looking at my slots. Instead I can use my slots for problems I cannot simply hit harder or simply hit even harder in other ways. Meaning overall my Magus will become objectively stronger than the pre-change variant relying on Shocking Grasp ever could have been.

And people are complaining???????

The complain is because their "solution" highlights all the issues that spell attacks had and they kept ignoring, which they might potentially. Even removed spell attacks as an option in the first place.

If you are allowed to have 3 spells every 30 minutes that deal as much damage as a 9th level spell which you can only cast 2 to 4 times A DAY then the entire argument that "this must be weak because balance" fall apart like tissue paper.

Karmagator wrote:

For the "great" cost of a second level feat (Psychic Dedication), I get a focus spell that does almost the same damage as a highest level SG plus a pushback for shenanigans/damage mitigation on top.

Actually it's two feats to get Imaginary Weapon, at 2nd and 6th level, which now competes with Attack of Opportunity on a class with no built-in reactions unless you take reaction spells. And you don't get it until 6th level, a quarter or possibly just half of the game you're playing, after the levels which Shocking Grasp is best at-- it is obsoleted by Disintegrate and Polar Ray at higher levels. (But with the Focus Point changes, getting as many Focus Points in your pool as possible is now pretty much a build requirement.)

No, what I described was Telekinetic Projectile, which you very much get at level 2. You can reach similar results with Produce Flame as well, you don't need Imaginary Weapon.

Btw, I get Polar Ray, but why would you ever use Disintegrate as a Magus?

But that's beside the point. The point is that the designer is implying that it's okay to replace a favorite Magus spell with one that Wizards will like more, because Magi use cantrips anyway. Except no, that's not clearly the design-- if not then they have some feats to rewrite. When you give a class 4 to 6 spell slots to use, they care about what's in those slots!

That's because they do, which is the weird part. By the very nature of Spellstrike you will use cantrips and focus spells most of the time. The Magus never has enough spell slots to do otherwise, even if you prepare only attack spells. So why exactly do these feats exist and why are they so weak? The Magus' design has always been inconsistent in that point, even in the playtest.

The complain is because their "solution" highlights all the issues that spell attacks had and they kept ignoring, which they might potentially. Even removed spell attacks as an option in the first place.

If you are allowed to have 3 spells every 30 minutes that deal as much damage as a 9th level spell which you can only cast 2 to 4 times A DAY then the entire argument that "this must be weak because balance" fall apart like tissue paper.

That on the other hand is a complaint I can understand, because spell attacks have always been in a really weird place for anyone but the Magus. I'm not complaining, because I don't play regular casters, so this is a net win for me, but it is definitely very odd.

But most complaints here seem to be only about Shocking Grasp in particular, not the broader implications of the Remaster.

The deal with imaginary weapon is its crazy amp and how quickly the damage scales. Nothing comes close if you want big damage with spellstrike. Can even be used with spell sweep too to ruin a second targets day.

The deal with imaginary weapon is its crazy amp and how quickly the damage scales. Nothing comes close if you want big damage with spellstrike. Can even be used with spell sweep too to ruin a second targets day.

I mean, it's 2 average damage per spell rank more than amped TKP, but loses the CC, so it isn't that crazy without Spell Swipe.

aobst128 wrote:

The deal with imaginary weapon is its crazy amp and how quickly the damage scales. Nothing comes close if you want big damage with spellstrike. Can even be used with spell sweep too to ruin a second targets day.

I mean, it's 2 average damage per spell rank more than amped TKP, but loses the CC, so it isn't that crazy without Spell Swipe.

Well if you've got the psychic dedication, you might as well grab the upgrade at level 6. Might take some retraining if you're starting with tkp but it's worthwhile I'd say.

Btw, I get Polar Ray, but why would you ever use Disintegrate as a Magus?

Because you just used Polar Ray on them and their Fort saves are now debuffed. Or if they have dying levels you'd rather not deal with and would prefer to simply vaporize.

Alternatively if you know their AC is enormously debuffed. Magi critting with that thing can be appalling.

But yeah it's normally not great on a magus.

It's funny with an offhand gauntlet bow and disintegrating bolts. Double tap your disintegrate.

The Raven Black wrote:

Cantrips will not be using stat modifier to damage anymore.

And I believe attack spells will not be balanced for being melee by having extra high damage anymore, since this is what made Shocking Grasp the unbalanced goto spell for the Magus. Ignition is likely a good hint of things to come on that side.

If they errata Gouging Claw (which is from Secrets of Magic and thus not on the Remaster schedule) to have another damage die instead of modifier, it will be identical in damage to Ignition. Whether it changes or not, Ignition is no significant improvement.

Shocking Grasp by itself isn't unbalanced. It's very clearly balanced for melee-range single-target damage. There's nothing wrong with melee-range damage spells in the same way that there's nothing wrong with melee martials doing more damage than ranged martials.

The only issue of it being overpowered is Starlit Span's "You can deliver the spell even if its range is shorter than the range increment of your ranged attack", but even that is barely stronger than Reach Spell.

The issue is melee spell attacks in the CRB were not balanced to be used at top level by a martial with good HPs, good accuracy and good armor.

Tooosk wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Cantrips will not be using stat modifier to damage anymore.

And I believe attack spells will not be balanced for being melee by having extra high damage anymore, since this is what made Shocking Grasp the unbalanced goto spell for the Magus. Ignition is likely a good hint of things to come on that side.

If they errata Gouging Claw (which is from Secrets of Magic and thus not on the Remaster schedule) to have another damage die instead of modifier, it will be identical in damage to Ignition. Whether it changes or not, Ignition is no significant improvement.

Shocking Grasp by itself isn't unbalanced. It's very clearly balanced for melee-range single-target damage. There's nothing wrong with melee-range damage spells in the same way that there's nothing wrong with melee martials doing more damage than ranged martials.

The only issue of it being overpowered is Starlit Span's "You can deliver the spell even if its range is shorter than the range increment of your ranged attack", but even that is barely stronger than Reach Spell.

The issue is melee spell attacks in the CRB were not balanced to be used at top level by a martial with good HPs, good accuracy and good armor.

I find it unlikely that Shocking Grasp being possibly op was a strong consideration during the change. Even if it wasn't initially balanced for the Magus, the class simply can't use the spell often enough for it to have a meaningful impact on your overall output beyond level 1 and 2. They have also indirectly replaced it with something even stronger, so it can't have been that problematic in the first place.

I think that you are overthinking about Shocking Grasp.

IMO the main reason of it is being replaced in the Remastered version of the game is because is not only its name but its one of the most iconic spells of D&D (a lvl 1 electric spell that that eletrocute the target on touch) and because there's many complains about attack spells being weak so they diminished the dependency of attack spells in the initial levels. So they try to solve various problems at once. Turn it in a very potent electric single damage spell that uses a save and its completely unrelated to OGL and D&D.

And as already said, the Horizon Thunder Sphere already occupies the same niche of Shocking Grasp what sove the problem for Magus and this still valid for remaster once the designers are said and repeated many times that the older supplementary books are still valid and will just receive erratas (otherwise the Magus itself wouldn't playable if the entire SoM was banned).

The issue is melee spell attacks in the CRB were not balanced to be used at top level by a martial with good HPs, good accuracy and good armor.

They didn't stop making melee-range spells that were stronger than their counterparts with the CRB-- Gouging Claw was in Secrets of Magic and Imaginary Weapon was in Dark Archive, as was the Produce Flame psi cantrip upgrade. And Ignition getting a melee upgrade in the remaster.

It isn't as if Shocking Grasp is a massive upgrade over ranged alternatives. It's certainly less damage over Horizon Thunder Sphere than a d12 weapon is over a d6 or d8.

That's because they do, which is the weird part. By the very nature of Spellstrike you will use cantrips and focus spells most of the time. The Magus never has enough spell slots to do otherwise, even if you prepare only attack spells. So why exactly do these feats exist and why are they so weak? The Magus' design has always been inconsistent in that point, even in the playtest.

The complain is because their "solution" highlights all the issues that spell attacks had and they kept ignoring, which they might potentially. Even removed spell attacks as an option in the first place....

OK, but let's select for turns that "matter".

Against trivial, low, or moderate threats, cantrip or Focus spell Spellstrikes are plenty to carry you through the encounter. At lower levels you may not even need the damage from a slotted spell. But then, you shouldn't use your spell slots on utility spells in these fights either. You should be able to serve your role just fine without using spell slots at all.

If you face one or two severe/extreme fights per day, and those are the fights where your chosen style actually matters? That's 8-10 rounds of fighting (at most) in which you get to cast 4-6 spells. (More with a caster archetype.)

And the Focus changes don't really matter here-- for the trivial to moderate encounters, you'll just be able to finish those quicker, while against the enemies that actually matter, you'll have effectively the same resources.

The Raven Black wrote:

The issue is melee spell attacks in the CRB were not balanced to be used at top level by a martial with good HPs, good accuracy and good armor.

They didn't stop making melee-range spells that were stronger than their counterparts with the CRB-- Gouging Claw was in Secrets of Magic and Imaginary Weapon was in Dark Archive, as was the Produce Flame psi cantrip upgrade. And Ignition getting a melee upgrade in the remaster.

It isn't as if Shocking Grasp is a massive upgrade over ranged alternatives. It's certainly less damage over Horizon Thunder Sphere than a d12 weapon is over a d6 or d8.

Melee attacks doing more damage than ranged attacks is also a fundamental design philosophy that applies to martials as well so I have no idea what Raven Black is talking about.

Tooosk wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

The issue is melee spell attacks in the CRB were not balanced to be used at top level by a martial with good HPs, good accuracy and good armor.

They didn't stop making melee-range spells that were stronger than their counterparts with the CRB-- Gouging Claw was in Secrets of Magic and Imaginary Weapon was in Dark Archive, as was the Produce Flame psi cantrip upgrade. And Ignition getting a melee upgrade in the remaster.

It isn't as if Shocking Grasp is a massive upgrade over ranged alternatives. It's certainly less damage over Horizon Thunder Sphere than a d12 weapon is over a d6 or d8.

Melee attacks doing more damage than ranged attacks is also a fundamental design philosophy that applies to martials as well so I have no idea what Raven Black is talking about.

I don't necessarily agree with The Raven Black here but I also don't think either of you are reading them right. They are saying shocking grasp was not designed with spellstrike in mind, which is technically true, but I don't think the designers felt this was a problem at all. The change here is to benefit full spellcasters who need the help, which magus do not, or rather do not in the damage department

Karmagator wrote:

That's because they do, which is the weird part. By the very nature of Spellstrike you will use cantrips and focus spells most of the time. The Magus never has enough spell slots to do otherwise, even if you prepare only attack spells. So why exactly do these feats exist and why are they so weak? The Magus' design has always been inconsistent in that point, even in the playtest.

The complain is because their "solution" highlights all the issues that spell attacks had and they kept ignoring, which they might potentially. Even removed spell attacks as an option in the first place....

OK, but let's select for turns that "matter".

Against trivial, low, or moderate threats, cantrip or Focus spell Spellstrikes are plenty to carry you through the encounter. At lower levels you may not even need the damage from a slotted spell. But then, you shouldn't use your spell slots on utility spells in these fights either. You should be able to serve your role just fine without using spell slots at all.

If you face one or two severe/extreme fights per day, and those are the fights where your chosen style actually matters? That's 8-10 rounds of fighting (at most) in which you get to cast 4-6 spells. (More with a caster archetype.)

And the Focus changes don't really matter here-- for the trivial to moderate encounters, you'll just be able to finish those quicker, while against the enemies that actually matter, you'll have effectively the same resources.

Ok, let's do that.

If I really want to powergame, then starting at level 7 I use 4th level invisibility, which most monsters have no way to counter. Then I burn through my 3 focus points. That way, I'll do the same or more damage than the Magus using several slotted attack spells or even one who uses the same cheese strategy as me plus slots instead of focus points. I also use fewer daily resources, since I'm only using 1 slot, so I can do this for at least a second fight as well. After that, I'm still running on about 80% effectiveness for the entire rest of the day. Meanwhile the other one is out of the good stuff after the first half of the first difficult fight or, if they are conserving resources, I'm way ahead.

Lesser, but still good results can be achieved with less cheesy strategies, such as spells improving your mobility (e.g. Jump) to limit your "downtime" and avoid damage. Even if you like using slots for Spellstrike often, you literally have nothing to lose and everything to gain by getting a strong focus spell off of another class.

I really don't see how the focus changes don't matter in these cases. If anything, they matter more, as you have to be less worried about later fights and can go full ham for far, far longer.

Whenever the topic of the magus and Shocking Grasp comes up I tend to always run the same couple of questions in my head, which I feel can also apply to a few more similar situations:

1. Will the changes to this one mechanic make X too weak?