Starfinder, enhance… Enhance… ENHANCE!

Then how does Manifold Array affect the Gear Array?

This penalty has to be applied to the Gear Array, right?

There is no effect that is calculated based on level, so no effective alteration in function.

YES! This is spectacular news! Much much much needed.
At this point I would have gone straight to Starfinder 2, to be honest, but this is a good compromise I guess. Would be great if we then went straight to Starfinder 3 at the next right moment

JiCi wrote:

Then how does Manifold Array affect the Gear Array?

This penalty has to be applied to the Gear Array, right?

There is no effect that is calculated based on level, so no effective alteration in function.

HOLD ON!

You mean that I can have up to THREE Gear Arrays, thus THREE items WITHOUT an item level cap???

HOLD ON!

You mean that I can have up to THREE Gear Arrays, thus THREE items WITHOUT an item level cap???

Yep. Though doesn't change your handed-ness, so you'll probably want some of those to be cybernetics.

JiCi wrote:

HOLD ON!

You mean that I can have up to THREE Gear Arrays, thus THREE items WITHOUT an item level cap???

Yep. Though doesn't change your handed-ness, so you'll probably want some of those to be cybernetics.

Oh, no, I knew about free hands and whatnot, but due to the "rule" about picking items with descending levels if you create a higher-level Nanocyte, I honestly thought that THIS applied to the array's level limitations.

Ok... now I feel dumb... a lot ^^;

I still stand that the Nanocyte should get option to form both a Major and a Minor form with each single Gear Array, and be able to merge TWO Major Forms for an Armor Mofidication ;)

Oh, no, I knew about free hands and whatnot, but due to the "rule" about picking items with descending levels if you create a higher-level Nanocyte, I honestly thought that THIS applied to the array's level limitations.

Ok... now I feel dumb... a lot ^^;

I still stand that the Nanocyte should get option to form both a Major and a Minor form with each single Gear Array, and be able to merge TWO Major Forms for an Armor Mofidication ;)

I am pretty sure the descending level is to reflect how you can only do 1 swap out / upgrade when you level up. So it'll often be staggered slightly.

Quote:

Oh, no, I knew about free hands and whatnot, but due to the "rule" about picking items with descending levels if you create a higher-level Nanocyte, I honestly thought that THIS applied to the array's level limitations.

Ok... now I feel dumb... a lot ^^;

I still stand that the Nanocyte should get option to form both a Major and a Minor form with each single Gear Array, and be able to merge TWO Major Forms for an Armor Mofidication ;)

I am pretty sure the descending level is to reflect how you can only do 1 swap out / upgrade when you level up. So it'll often be staggered slightly.

This, I can live with... but ever since the playtest, I kept thinking that the -4 and -8 penalties were applied to the Major Forms' own levels, like for a 15th-level Nanocyte:

Neither interpretation is compelled, but I always assumed that second/tertiary limits the level of the gear you can create. If you have no such qualifying form (especially on tertiary) because you crammed everything into the highest possible levels and didn't select anything low enough level, then too bad, you can't actually use gear array effectively as secondary or tertiary.

Yeah I don't think there's a definite answer. I think it's probably worth making a post in the rules questions area, with a faq request. I personally think secondary array and so on do limit the level of items created to a lower level.

I posted it on a separate topic.

Solarian also could really use more skill points per level. As MAD as they are, there is little room to improve their Int. More skill ranks per level would allow them to be more useful out of combat.

Also, just how many people do an Armor Solarian as anything other than a dip?

<Cricket chirps>

Weapon Solarians have always done good damage in combat. Just not much outside of combat.

I do hope they get rid of the idea that the Sidereal Influence ends as soon as you go into combat. No other class has they insight bonus go away like that.

My biggest issue with Solarion wasn't necessarily related to balance, but the fact that you were never really incentivized to switch between graviton and photon mode. You got punished if you took too many powers from one mode and not the other, but there was no carrot to go with the stick. In practice, I think a lot of people still ended up mostly sticking to a single form, and only taking powers from the other form because they had to (and mostly taking ones that were decent even if you're in the opposite form).

Unrelated to Solarion, I hope this offers an alternative to archetypes. Some classes had to give up way more than others to pursue an archetype, making a lot of them impractical.

I feel like most Solarian powers should "be the same, but with 2 variations". For instance, Supernova's graviton counterpart, Black Hole, doesn't "deal 1d6 cold damage plus 1d6 additional cold damage per solarian level to all creatures".

It's like every revelation needs to obtain a missing photon / grativon mode.

I feel like most Solarian powers should "be the same, but with 2 variations". For instance, Supernova's graviton counterpart, Black Hole, doesn't "deal 1d6 cold damage plus 1d6 additional cold damage per solarian level to all creatures".

It's like every revelation needs to obtain a missing photon / grativon mode.

It would be nice, rather than being forced to take 50% of revelations you never use, for each one to have a photon and a graviton mode.

Indeed, and there could still be separate revelations depending on your mode, just not as much ^^;

Here's something worth changing: for your Solar Weapon and Flare, how about one damage type in one mode and another type in the other? I mean, right now your Flare can deal either Fire or Cold damage... which is already associated with Photon and Grativon mode, respectively. Your Weapon could be Piercing in Photon mode and Slashing in Graviton mode, or another combination.

So I have to ask is this Enhanced Starfinder book going to bring the rules up to where Pathfinder 2e is as far as action economy or is this just adding details that the Core Rulebook didn't really have room for? I guess you could say maybe a re-imagining of the game or is it revamping what was already there?

So I have to ask is this Enhanced Starfinder book going to bring the rules up to where Pathfinder 2e is as far as action economy or is this just adding details that the Core Rulebook didn't really have room for? I guess you could say maybe a re-imagining of the game or is it revamping what was already there?

The product page for the book does not mention any alternate rules for action economy.

One thing they should clarify is "why can't you fire more than 2 times during a round"... when many firearms fire more than one bullet, meaning that an "attack" consists of "multiple pulls of the trigger" and the bullets are packing damage as a "cluster".

Yes, some guns fire only one bullet, but... so does a shotgun or sniper rifle, and their reloading mechanisms justify a slower firing rate :)

I'm thinking a lot or at least some of these revised rules will smooth the way for the 3 action economy for SF II honestly.

I'd say a year or so from this October we might get a Sf II playtest announcement, makes the most sense as a year with these new rules under our belt and our feedback should make it much easier to redo all the math and such to get that 3 action economy and any other things they plan on taking from PF II.

Tom

Nothing in this book is going to touch action economy or basic combat mechanics. Read the product description and summary, people.

I honestly don't see why people get so hyped about 3-action economy, especially when, for some builds, the 3rd action is almost guaranteed to be a waste of a die roll that just slows play down.

I honestly don't see why people get so hyped about 3-action economy, especially when, for some builds, the 3rd action is almost guaranteed to be a waste of a die roll that just slows play down.

Assuming paizo even allows you to have a third action. Casting and class-features generally mean pcs basically only really have two.

Now that I've had a chance to play in a few sessions of PF2e I think the 3-action economy is cool but not earth-shaking. You can get close to a 3 action economy in Starfinder with the right race, feats, and armor upgrades, and by 2nd level, every class can move and draw a weapon at the same time. I sure there are some builds in PF2e that can take great advantage of 3 actions you couldn't do in Starfinder, but still, nothing that's would make me stop wanting to play Starfinder over.

I hope they add it as an option in Starfinder Enhance for people who what it.

Arutema wrote:

I honestly don't see why people get so hyped about 3-action economy, especially when, for some builds, the 3rd action is almost guaranteed to be a waste of a die roll that just slows play down.

Assuming paizo even allows you to have a third action. Casting and class-features generally mean pcs basically only really have two.

Even if you do, your options for it can often be limited to "attack at -10" or "roll an intimidation check half the bestiary is immune to."

Now that I've had a chance to play in a few sessions of PF2e I think the 3-action economy is cool but not earth-shaking. You can get close to a 3 action economy in Starfinder with the right race, feats, and armor upgrades, and by 2nd level, every class can move and draw a weapon at the same time. I sure there are some builds in PF2e that can take great advantage of 3 actions you couldn't do in Starfinder, but still, nothing that's would make me stop wanting to play Starfinder over.

I hope they add it as an option in Starfinder Enhance for people who what it.

Well, PF2 action economy allows you to perform an earth-shaking stuff that is walking up to a door (1 action), opening it (1 action), and walking through it (1 action), which is impossible in SF as you only get two move actions at best and both walking and opening a door are move actions.

Driftbourne wrote:

Now that I've had a chance to play in a few sessions of PF2e I think the 3-action economy is cool but not earth-shaking. You can get close to a 3 action economy in Starfinder with the right race, feats, and armor upgrades, and by 2nd level, every class can move and draw a weapon at the same time. I sure there are some builds in PF2e that can take great advantage of 3 actions you couldn't do in Starfinder, but still, nothing that's would make me stop wanting to play Starfinder over.

I hope they add it as an option in Starfinder Enhance for people who what it.

Well, PF2 action economy allows you to perform an earth-shaking stuff that is walking up to a door (1 action), opening it (1 action), and walking through it (1 action), which is impossible in SF as you only get two move actions at best and both walking and opening a door are move actions.

My favourite, in SF terms, would be opening door (1 action), throwing grenade (1 action), closing door (1 action) :3

Nothing in this book is going to touch action economy or basic combat mechanics. Read the product description and summary, people.

To quote said product page:

brand-new systems for expanding the way you play

I'd say that door is open at the very least.

Milo v3 wrote:

Arutema wrote:

I honestly don't see why people get so hyped about 3-action economy, especially when, for some builds, the 3rd action is almost guaranteed to be a waste of a die roll that just slows play down.

Assuming paizo even allows you to have a third action. Casting and class-features generally mean pcs basically only really have two.

Even if you do, your options for it can often be limited to "attack at -10" or "roll an intimidation check half the bestiary is immune to."

Uh... Movement? Changing weapons? Grenades? Interacting with the environment? Dropping to/getting up from prone?

There's options there.

I would definitely not mind a 3-action system. I play primarily with newbies IRL and trying to explain the somewhat arcane rules of 'Standard, move, and swift actions' has always been a bit difficult to make stick.

Driftbourne wrote:

Now that I've had a chance to play in a few sessions of PF2e I think the 3-action economy is cool but not earth-shaking. You can get close to a 3 action economy in Starfinder with the right race, feats, and armor upgrades, and by 2nd level, every class can move and draw a weapon at the same time. I sure there are some builds in PF2e that can take great advantage of 3 actions you couldn't do in Starfinder, but still, nothing that's would make me stop wanting to play Starfinder over.

I hope they add it as an option in Starfinder Enhance for people who what it.

Well, PF2 action economy allows you to perform an earth-shaking stuff that is walking up to a door (1 action), opening it (1 action), and walking through it (1 action), which is impossible in SF as you only get two move actions at best and both walking and opening a door are move actions.

(move action) move to the door. (move action) open the door. (free action ) politely hold the door open for your friends to walk in...

My initiative rolls have been so low in every game so far I've never been the one to open a door, so hadn't noticed. Three actions to walk to, open, and walk through does seem like a lot. A simple solution would be to treat opening an unlocked door as difficult terrain and just have it cost an extra 5 feet of your movement to open the door. Then doing all three could be done in one action.

There's positives on both sides of different types of action economy. People could argue and post different situations in which one is better than the other. It's all up to personal preference

Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:

Driftbourne wrote:

Now that I've had a chance to play in a few sessions of PF2e I think the 3-action economy is cool but not earth-shaking. You can get close to a 3 action economy in Starfinder with the right race, feats, and armor upgrades, and by 2nd level, every class can move and draw a weapon at the same time. I sure there are some builds in PF2e that can take great advantage of 3 actions you couldn't do in Starfinder, but still, nothing that's would make me stop wanting to play Starfinder over.

I hope they add it as an option in Starfinder Enhance for people who what it.

Well, PF2 action economy allows you to perform an earth-shaking stuff that is walking up to a door (1 action), opening it (1 action), and walking through it (1 action), which is impossible in SF as you only get two move actions at best and both walking and opening a door are move actions.

My favourite, in SF terms, would be opening door (1 action), throwing grenade (1 action), closing door (1 action) :3

It's too bad free actions on Starfinder don't have more uses. Or if we had 1 standard action and 2 move actions. That would get us closer to a full 3 action economy without messing with the combat balance as much as having the option for 3 attacks per turn.

Or any of them, really.

Due to Rage of the Elements coming soon, Vanguards could use extra stuff:
- Entropic strikes using Slashing and Piercing weapons
- Fire, Cold, Electricity, Sonic, "Plasma" and "Laser" damage instead of just Acid; coupled with Entropic Strike that would expand the weapon selection greatly
- Entropic ranged strikes
- A more... defensive/composed variation, so you do not always have to throw yourself in front of danger to get Entropy Points.

- Fire, Cold, Electricity, Sonic, "Plasma" and "Laser" damage instead of just Acid; coupled with Entropic Strike that would expand the weapon selection greatly

- Entropic ranged strikes

Good news, these things are already (kinda) options! Entropic Shot is the ranged alternate class feature introduced in Tech Rev. Changing damage types is a bit more complicated, but possible - regular ol', out-of-the-box, Entropic Strike lets you use a fusion on a weapon with your Entropic Strike, so you can already use, say, a Thundering, or Flaming, fusion to change the B or A to something else.

About your last point: there's lots of Aspects that net you EP for doing stuff outside of the front line, but it's usually only once per combat. I feel like the Vanguard's 'role' is pretty clearly defined as "right in the thick of things," though. More support for a non-front-line Vanguard could be cool, though! I mean, there's ways to build plausibly good melee Envoys or Technomancers, or skills-heavy Soldiers and Solarians, so who can say! Starfinder has a proven track record of rules support to play "against" a class's usual "role" (as much as those words mean anything, in Starfinder!)

Removed some posts that were off topic and venturing towards personal attacks. Please keep things civil even in disagreement.

If Novians are a new alien race for players, does this mean that other planets will get new races? I'd be curious to know what's Aucturn's "main civilisation".

If Novians are a new alien race for players, does this mean that other planets will get new races? I'd be curious to know what's Aucturn's "main civilisation".

That would be the orocorans, who are rumoured to have been living there, getting high off its weird planet-juices, even before the Outer Gods or Dominion of the Black showed up.

For me being a vet of PF I, then from day 1 for Starfinder, but before PF II. it was a bit different but quite familiar. BUT once PF II came out with the 3 action economy, it was just so refreshing for me and all my PF I and then my Starfinder players who also played PF I, then Starfinder, then PF II.

So when switching back from PF II play to Starfinder play the difference is like night and day honestly and many like (90% pf my Starfinder player base) have commented how "quaint" the system is but is showing its age, wish we had the 3 action economy type theme, as well as I, needless to say.

And again as I posted before on the forums Eric Mona almost promised we will be getting the 3 action economy from PF II, just nothing official to announce as of yet. I beleave in a Roll for Combat twitch stream and the words to the effect of

" I see and hear a lot of Starfinder players wanting the 3 action economy (from PF II), and you know I love to give what the players are asking for"

So thats a done deal, its just the timing and this book is the beginning of that Pre SF II playtest I more than suspect.

Will it be the exact same math of PF II, I'd say 50/50 at the moment as some things just might not jive to well and it would be nice to have the new system a bit different than PF II.

But its fun to chat and speculate on these things, for most people anyways.

Looking forward to the new book this fall and to see what direction Starfinder will go, or at least hints of I bet :)

Tom

People realize that if you want 3-action economy just slapped on top of SF, that already basically exists in PF1e's Unchained book. People didn't use it back then for the same reason people probably wont for Starfinder. Because it's systems weren't designed for it, so it will just be immensely clumsy and poorly interface with many of the class abilities in the system.

Well a whole new rulebook would be the place to make a system that works within the current system.

Well a whole new rulebook would be the place to make a system that works within the current system.

For some reason I doubt this rulebook will rework literally every single class, when we already know they're not doing that.

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

Well a whole new rulebook would be the place to make a system that works within the current system.

For some reason I doubt this rulebook will rework literally every single class, when we already know they're not doing that.

That depends on what you consider a "rework" I suppose.

Pathfinder Unchained had class reworks and the new action system.

That depends on what you consider a "rework" I suppose.

Pathfinder Unchained had class reworks and the new action system.

Yep, and it didn't rework those classes to work with the new action system, let alone all of the classes. So no one used the new action system.

Rysky the Dark Solarion wrote:

That depends on what you consider a "rework" I suppose.

Pathfinder Unchained had class reworks and the new action system.

Yep, and it didn't rework those classes to work with the new action system, let alone all of the classes. So no one used the new action system.

That’s an assumption you are having, not an actual fact.

Not claiming it worked great however, but it did pave way for the new Action Economy in P2, and this will have that and all the other projects and experience to build from all these years later.