Introducing the Fists of the Ruby Phoenix Player’s Guide

We are unique in that we create ourselves. Gentlemen, you have our gratitude!

Awesome!

Really loving that this guide implicitly assumes PCs will be from Tian Xia; it’s a nice touch.

Should the mention of “paladins” in the class list refer to champions instead, or is the specificity intentional?

EDIT: The section on languages and the reminders about avoiding stereotypes is a treat!

EDIT 2: That Arcadia option in the list of Team Origins is a cruel tease! I know a tiny bit about Razatlan and Segada; are Innazpa and Gujaraldi new?

I look forward to a tournament of truly epic proportions.

I love how many silly or anime trope optios are in the team builder random tables :D

I see that even Paizo havent quite got used to the Champion class name.

As always, bards, clerics, and paladins make for excellent teammates.

I love how many silly or anime trope optios are in the team builder random tables :D

It desperately has me wanting a rival team from another planet in the mix. The Akiton Avengers is probably... an ikeshti barbarian, a ysoki rogue, a shobhad with a rifle, and a Hylki human sorcerer with distant Azlanti ancestry; they’re a powerful fighting unit, but are absolutely miserable with Golarion’s increased gravity.

Really loving that this guide implicitly assumes PCs will be from Tian Xia; it’s a nice touch.

Should the mention of “paladins” in the class list refer to champions instead, or is the specificity intentional?

EDIT: The section on languages and the reminders about avoiding stereotypes is a treat!

EDIT 2: That Arcadia option in the list of Team Origins is a cruel tease! I know a tiny bit about Razatlan and Segada; are Innazpa and Gujaraldi new?

Both were mentioned in "Borne by the Sun's Grace" book of the Tyrant's Grasp AP, but only the latter has even just a stub article on the wiki.

*Cue bangin' 90s techno music*

"MOR-TAL KOM-..."

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This will be so much fun!

Very fun Guide.

I still stand by my believe that this guide had more riding on it than other guides, it could and would have benefitted from a little more detail/an appendix helping players jump in at 11th level.

For best experience, read while listening to the Street Fighter 2 soundtrack.

I hope I can make it to a real computer before leaving heading to PFS tonight. :)

Very fun Guide.

I still stand by my believe that this guide had more riding on it than other guides, it could and would have benefitted from a little more detail/an appendix helping players jump in at 11th level.

What do you think is missing?

Now I wonder if would be ok to use Fist of the Ruby Phoenix backgrounds on Abomination Vaults as someone just training for the future contest.

vagrant-poet wrote:

Very fun Guide.

I still stand by my believe that this guide had more riding on it than other guides, it could and would have benefitted from a little more detail/an appendix helping players jump in at 11th level.

What do you think is missing?

I think there was a general thread in here somewhere, but a number of GMs who have seen players who bring higher level PCs into existing games, have seen players do things like spend all of the wealth on one melee weapon, or over-specialize in one specific action or activity that sounds like it will be really cool in play, but not give them any way to respond to many of the difficult situations that high level play finds itself in, dealing with invisibility, flying and different kinds of resistances or take advantage of weaknesses, or provide some emergency healing in a bind.

The creating a new character section talking about how to handle the weapth doesn't really talk through helping players make sure that can handle the common kinds of situations that the party will face.

God I can feel the Shonan baked into those Quirks.

I LOVE IT!

vagrant-poet wrote:

Very fun Guide.

I still stand by my believe that this guide had more riding on it than other guides, it could and would have benefitted from a little more detail/an appendix helping players jump in at 11th level.

What do you think is missing?

In my experience many players are bad at the mechanics for creating higher level PC. It's quite an uncommon thing to do. (PCs are grown organically so many they won't know what they want at 11).

I'd expect respec requests. I hope the adventure pacing is such that it allows a week gap every now and again.

However I respect that Paizo has more data on PCs and players than I do, so I will trust you if you say the guide is sufficient to pregen at 11th level.

The adventure looks interesting. I may check it out when it arrives.

Clicking on the download link works, but clicking on the image results in:

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Aaron Shanks wrote:

vagrant-poet wrote:

Very fun Guide.

I still stand by my believe that this guide had more riding on it than other guides, it could and would have benefitted from a little more detail/an appendix helping players jump in at 11th level.

What do you think is missing?

I think there was a general thread in here somewhere, but a number of GMs who have seen players who bring higher level PCs into existing games, have seen players do things like spend all of the wealth on one melee weapon, or over-specialize in one specific action or activity that sounds like it will be really cool in play, but not give them any way to respond to many of the difficult situations that high level play finds itself in, dealing with invisibility, flying and different kinds of resistances or take advantage of weaknesses, or provide some emergency healing in a bind.

The creating a new character section talking about how to handle the weapth doesn't really talk through helping players make sure that can handle the common kinds of situations that the party will face.

Two things I noticed(& I am paraphrasing) 'Build a first level character, then level them up to 11.' (Makes it organic enough for me, but I recognize some might not feel this way.)

Second, 'the first way to handle gear is the easiest...' Is stated right in the guide. It also suggests to use the items found in book 1 (which we do not yet have) which should be a pretty good indicator of what to expect (at least it has been in the modules/AP I have done so far. )

vagrant-poet wrote:

Very fun Guide.

I still stand by my believe that this guide had more riding on it than other guides, it could and would have benefitted from a little more detail/an appendix helping players jump in at 11th level.

What do you think is missing?

Gear is no my major concern, though I think that lots of newer players who aren't organically levelling won't pick up skill items, and other little trinkets that organic characters will get.

I think what's really missing is a sidebar talking about expectations of higher level play. On a really broad level.

The game teaches you to play through encounters, and hard situations, so that you prepare your character to have an option in those situations.

When you skip to 11th level, the game assumes you have solutions to problems that are more common at higher levels than lower levels (like flying enemies to use the most obvious example). But players who haven't gotten there organically can't know those expectations without lots of system experience and study.

I want this AP to do well, because I love the 3-part arcs, and am keen on high level stories, but I worry that not going the extra mile to make this AP user-friendly for players will result in lots of people losing interest, giving poor reviews, conflating the game with poor experiences in other d20 games. Because I think it is possible to get players in the right mindset in PF2e, and for high level to be fun unlike many other similar games.

I just think a little more hand-holding to make starting at 11 easier would be a huge investment. And that advice would also help all future adventures published at 11th+ level plus, like the Galt module, and potential future APs.

Guide looks awesome, but it does not have a product spot on its AP page.

Hmm this player's guide is making me realize that none of bestiary oni or kami currently have senzar language ^_^;

I love the tables at the end of this guide. I very much want to have a group create its team using them and then have everyone come up with their actual characters.

I like the idea but I'm afraid that in play it will come down to a dual pick wielding PC trashing everyone in the tournament. Will there be adjustments to this particular local minimum in the combat rules?

Also, is it intended that you're allowed to loot opponents in the qualifiers?

This is the first Pathfinder Adventure Path we've ever done that starts at anything other than 1st level, and I fully expect to learn a lot from feedback on how we presented the Player's Guide AND how we start the first volume out. We had to start somewhere, of course, and that starting point is what we chose in this player's guide. So, please continue giving us feedback, but particularly once folks have used the Player's Guide to help build characters and have then played the Adventure Path... or at the very least started it! Looking forward to everyone's feedback once they get into the game!

Color me surprised that we don't have a background suited to "I want to show the superiority of my style and/or do my shifu proud" background option.

I like the idea but I'm afraid that in play it will come down to a dual pick wielding PC trashing everyone in the tournament. Will there be adjustments to this particular local minimum in the combat rules?

It’s not the AP’s fault if you play with incredibly optimization-driven players.

It might be best to adjust the font (color? bold?) on Goka and Bonmu so they stand out as cities as opposed to countries.

hyphz wrote:

I like the idea but I'm afraid that in play it will come down to a dual pick wielding PC trashing everyone in the tournament. Will there be adjustments to this particular local minimum in the combat rules?

It’s not the AP’s fault if you play with incredibly optimization-driven players.

Excellent point.

We generally try to build our Adventure Paths so that they're appropriate for the average group. For newcomers to the game, the GM will need to make adjustments as surely as if the GM were running the game for a group of players who have become experts at the game play.

If we built our Adventure Paths to specifically assume that they're created for one specific build of party members, they'd fail increasingly hard when played by any other group.

The GM needs to take the time to adjust any published adventure as needed to be appropriate for their table. If you have players who always use the same tactics, or fear that every player will, say, build a dual pick wielding PC, you as the GM either need to be content with the fact that the PCs will trash everyone in the tournament (and that might be great! Some groups enjoy that sort of game play!), or you need to adjust things—either by changing the adventure to match the content the players bring to it, or by asking the players to avoid inappropriate builds. You can even tell them "You're experienced players who know the rules—why not try this campaign on 'hard mode' by trying out new builds?" or the like.

Because

a) it's not the APs fault, but it is the CRBs fault if an unbalanced combat build is available.
b) "hard mode" by deliberately using a build known to be worse isn't satisfying. If you want a challenge, you play the tennis player known to be better than you, you don't play someone you can easily beat but while standing on one leg. Making the enemies harder would be an option, but tends to result in initiative tag or non-pick PCs going down too easily.

a) So the player has no responsibility to adjust to the table? As GM, I'll restrict whatever I think necessary.
b) That sounds like a personal preference, not a universal truth.

Because

a) it's not the APs fault, but it is the CRBs fault if an unbalanced combat build is available.
b) "hard mode" by deliberately using a build known to be worse isn't satisfying. If you want a challenge, you play the tennis player known to be better than you, you don't play someone you can easily beat but while standing on one leg. Making the enemies harder would be an option, but tends to result in initiative tag or non-pick PCs going down too easily.

Can you point me to an RPG that is perfectly balanced? Not to say PF2 is perfect, but I do think you’re making a pretty unreasonable ask here, and also treating optimization as the primary mode of play when I really don’t think it is.

The average group grabbing this AP isn’t going “I want to be challenged to the full extent of my system mastery,” they’re going “it would be fun to play in an over-the-top Asian-inspired fantasy fighting tournament” or “I want to see Paizo’s first take on Tian content in this edition.” Building for the former would gate out a TON of the latter, and I really do think the bulk of players aren’t optimization fiends. You’re out here worried about dual-pick wielders; my group is talking about what kind of person would enter this tournament, and what they hope to gain from it if they win.

Not to say your style is fun is in any way inferior or not valid, but it’s not the primary motivator for the Adventure Path-buying crowd.

b) "hard mode" by deliberately using a build known to be worse isn't satisfying. If you want a challenge, you play the tennis player known to be better than you, you don't play someone you can easily beat but while standing on one leg. Making the enemies harder would be an option, but tends to result in initiative tag or non-pick PCs going down too easily.

b) I didn't suggest deliberately using a build known to be worse. I suggested trying a new build apart from the "obvious" choice. That's "hard mode" to me because it relies upon the player's skill and experience to a certain extent in coming up with a new build that will be fun to play and that will be effective.

New build ≠ worse build. It could even be BETTER.

I confess, one of the nice things about starting at 11 is that it lets you put together builds that are going to be rough until they come together at late levels.

Like the Unarmed Fencer Swashbuckler with the Monk Archetype that grabs Stumbling Style, Flurry of Blows (at 10), and Stumbling Feint at 12. You only have 1 level to wait before your main trick comes online instead of 12.

I love the tables at the end of this guide. I very much want to have a group create its team using them and then have everyone come up with their actual characters.

I want to do this for every campaign! The Team Themes table especially. In fact the one table I did build was only missing two of these themes. :)

Criminals escaping their past/seeking redemption? Awesome fun!

How did I miss that and why is that woman with the colorful ponytails coming at me with a wooden mallet?

Excellent response James. I find myself challenged in exactly that fashion. Not working to build a sub par character but looking at the myriad possibilities and which things I’d like to try out at the table, rather than focussing on that one build. Besides isn’t a build only sub par is everyone at the table, including the GM allow it be so?

"..supportive, even of your rivals, and always willing (sometimes to an aggravating degree) to offer advice or pointers for future fights."

Me: What are you going to do with those senzu beans Goku?

*Goku aproaches the nearly defeated enemy*

Also me: Wha- What the...? Why did you do that?!

keftiu wrote:

hyphz wrote:

I like the idea but I'm afraid that in play it will come down to a dual pick wielding PC trashing everyone in the tournament. Will there be adjustments to this particular local minimum in the combat rules?

It’s not the AP’s fault if you play with incredibly optimization-driven players.

Excellent point.

We generally try to build our Adventure Paths so that they're appropriate for the average group. For newcomers to the game, the GM will need to make adjustments as surely as if the GM were running the game for a group of players who have become experts at the game play.

If we built our Adventure Paths to specifically assume that they're created for one specific build of party members, they'd fail increasingly hard when played by any other group.

The GM needs to take the time to adjust any published adventure as needed to be appropriate for their table. If you have players who always use the same tactics, or fear that every player will, say, build a dual pick wielding PC, you as the GM either need to be content with the fact that the PCs will trash everyone in the tournament (and that might be great! Some groups enjoy that sort of game play!), or you need to adjust things—either by changing the adventure to match the content the players bring to it, or by asking the players to avoid inappropriate builds. You can even tell them "You're experienced players who know the rules—why not try this campaign on 'hard mode' by trying out new builds?" or the like.

James,

I agree with all of this very much. I also really like the idea of higher level APs that allow players to get to jump in and explore the more fantastical character concepts that can take years of play time to develop into those larger fantasy character types like one of the most powerful wizards in the world, or the swordswoman who can kill you with an evil stare.

The issue that I believe vagrant poet was bringing up, is that these threads see quite a few people come in and talk about how impossible PF2 is, and common thread of people saying the overall difficulty of the game was too high, was parties experiencing a TPK once, and then everyone coming in with new characters at a higher level and just getting trounced by a higher level encounter that no one in the party was built to be able to respond to, then deciding that the system is to blame, because building a character hyper specialized in one thing has traditionally been a way of optimizing in many RPG systems, but is not something that PF2 rewards very well.

Higher level PF2 parties optimize by exploiting enemy weaknesses and avoiding going face to face with enemy strengths. That requires a fair bit of flexibility and hyper specialized characters are not capable of overcoming enemy strengths just by being built strong enough in their specialization. Many of us were curious about how that was going to be explained in the players guide, and some of us are a little concerned that it is not going to come across clearly enough...

But, we haven't seen the AP yet. Maybe those fears are totally unwarranted and the encounter design of the adventure itself will really help guide players into seeing that by having very clear environmental hazards that the party gets shown in advance and maybe even gets NPC support in making sure they understand what that means. It looks like that could be entirely possible here and I for one am very interested in seeing how it all turns out.

I hope high level APs become something just as easy for newer players to jump into as lower level APs. I think the fight tournament structure could really help with that and this AP just might be the "learn how high level PF2 works" AP to expose new players to and avoid the "high level is just too complicated" slog that really made it difficult to bring new people into existing games in other RPG systems, including PF1.

"Parts Unknown".

Is someone at Paizo a wrestling fan?

Nah, it's a common expression now. If they had said Parts Funknown, then maybe.

"Parts Unknown".

Is someone at Paizo a wrestling fan?

I definitely had pro wrestling in mind when I added that to the table. :)

ZamuelNow wrote:

"Parts Unknown".

Is someone at Paizo a wrestling fan?

I definitely had pro wrestling in mind when I added that to the table. :)

We're going to need to brainstorm all the cool sounding places in Golarion you can be billed from (your Death Valleys; your Truth or Consequences, New Mexico, etc.) The real ones, since every planet might have a Dudleyville.

I hope high level APs become something just as easy for newer players to jump into as lower level APs.

They won't be, for the reasons that have been brought up, and no Player's Guide could remedy that. That's not a PF2 issue, that's an "All games with an experience system" issue.

High level characters innately rely upon skills learned by their players at lower levels, either with that character or with other characters, and expecting a single 15-18 page document to distil that down over a few pages is asking way too much.

If you're afraid of a particular party build, make a competing party that is built to counter it(*), and then have it be well known lore about the previous tournament that a previous party of contestants went in with a build like that and got trashed . . . .

(*)Secretly run a few simulations just to be sure.

Unicore wrote:

I hope high level APs become something just as easy for newer players to jump into as lower level APs.

They won't be, for the reasons that have been brought up, and no Player's Guide could remedy that. That's not a PF2 issue, that's an "All games with an experience system" issue.

High level characters innately rely upon skills learned by their players at lower levels, either with that character or with other characters, and expecting a single 15-18 page document to distil that down over a few pages is asking way too much.

I had similar thoughts to this when I first heard about an AP just starting at 11th level., but I think the folks at Paizo did a brilliant thing in matching it with a tournament that is going to put the players on a pretty strong set of rails as they catch their bearings on high level play. That is why I said that it might not just be the players guide that helps newer players catch on to higher level expectations and I am excited to see the first book of this AP.

They are attempting an ambitious task, but have a great structure in which to try it!

Clicking on the download link works, but clicking on the image results in:

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Referred internally for correction. Thanks.

Guide looks awesome, but it does not have a product spot on its AP page.

Adventure Path landing pages are getting un upgrade as you can see from the Abomination Vaults page.

We decided it was best to link to the free PDF directly and remove the friction of needing an account to get a watermarked PDF. We want Player's Guides to be accessible. The Fists of the Ruby Pheonix Player's Guide will have a long term, easily discoverable home as a button in the header when the new page goes live prior to launch.

OOOOOH I just recognized the symbol of the tattoo on page 2 from Hell's Rebels! That's a super cool touch. :D

They won't be, for the reasons that have been brought up, and no Player's Guide could remedy that. That's not a PF2 issue, that's an "All games with an experience system" issue.

High level characters innately rely upon skills learned by their players at lower levels, either with that character or with other characters, and expecting a single 15-18 page document to distil that down over a few pages is asking way too much.

Yeah, instead of hoping Paizo somehow manage to fit such a guide inside the Player's Guide when it already has to introduce the AP setting, theme, recommendations, etc. Everyone would be better served by a community-made "So you're starting at higher level" guide.

We decided it was best to link to the free PDF directly and remove the friction of needing an account to get a watermarked PDF. We want Player's Guides to be accessible.

Much appreciated. Luckily, it's never been an issue for me before, but it always felt awkward anticipating the "How do I download the guide" question. I'm glad from now on it'll just be as simple as giving them the link to the pdf directly

logic_poet wrote:

Guide looks awesome, but it does not have a product spot on its AP page.

Adventure Path landing pages are getting un upgrade as you can see from the Abomination Vaults page.

AND WHAT AN UPGRADE!! Woah! It's awesome!

Evilgm wrote:

They won't be, for the reasons that have been brought up, and no Player's Guide could remedy that. That's not a PF2 issue, that's an "All games with an experience system" issue.

High level characters innately rely upon skills learned by their players at lower levels, either with that character or with other characters, and expecting a single 15-18 page document to distil that down over a few pages is asking way too much.

Yeah, instead of hoping Paizo somehow manage to fit such a guide inside the Player's Guide when it already has to introduce the AP setting, theme, recommendations, etc. Everyone would be better served by a community-made "So you're starting at higher level" guide.

I agree. I can still see a book about that coming from Paizo as they did in PF1, but that's it, it's not a player guide thing, it's a subject for a whole book.