Tales Of Lost Omens: The First Of Many

Wednesday, February 3, 2021

Flowers. Puh.

Teph grumbled as he trudged over the uneven ground. The tended dirt path was long gone by now, and his boots felt every bump of root and pinch of pebble. In the distance, well past the canopy and out of sight, thunder growled. The boy pulled his jacket tighter, hoping the storm would miss them tonight; he still had one more task before he could return home.

Gathering splitheart flowers.

The spiky, red flowers were a favorite of Mom’s, and they had just started to burst, revealing their perfect, crimson seeds. The seeds fight off mosquitos. The leaves you boil for fevers.

Also, Teph noted, Mom liked to turn the petals into a paste to deepen the shade of her lips. He’d even tried it once himself, but found it altogether unpleasant; it smelled funny and he didn’t like how dark it made his mouth. He liked his lips just fine the way they were, thank you. Why did girls even like lip-color?

He arrived at the patch of splitheart and drew out his gathering pouch. Selecting only the ripest of the prickly flowers, he gathered each with a pinch of his fingers and a quiet word of thanks to the earth.

He arrived at the patch of splitheart and drew out his gathering pouch. Selecting only the ripest of the prickly flowers, he gathered each with a pinch of his fingers and a quiet word of thanks to the earth.

Flower picking. Teph rolled his eyes. This was not what heroes did.

The thought lingered as Teph wound his way back home. Real heroes got to solve mysteries, fight evil creatures, and save the day. Some day, he’d be a hero, like the ones in his favorite book, The Grand Adventures of the Golden Wayfarers. He’d be fast like Celadir Wind-Blown, dancing from rooftop to rooftop, his arrows always finding their mark. He’d be strong like Ukhul the Just, defending the helpless with a swing of his mighty sword. And he’d be wise and magical, like Zuridani Sunborn, summoning the elements themselves to help him win the day.

Teph painted his fingernails silver so they glittered when he moved his hands—just like Zuridani’s hands sparkled when he cast his spells. He even knew what his familiar would be: a fae dragon with one of its insectile wings blue and the other green—just like its eyes would be. Just like Teph’s were.

With his heroic heart and brave soul, he’d solve the world’s mysteries and save the day, and everyone would finally welcome him in the city instead of stare, distrusting. He wouldn’t have to keep a low profile or avoid the city at all; instead, they’d build him a tower of his own right in the middle of town, and his dad would never have to leave home again!

He’d make them welcome his mom, too, and make everyone apologize to them—for everything. For the ugly names they called him. For the horrible accusations they leveled at her.

The air grew colder, as did the boy’s mood; Teph knew in his stomach that the storm would arrive before dawn. Best not to dawdle. He skipped his usual extra stop at the eldest annon tree, and instead retraced his steps to the dirt path that led home.

The cottage just within the woods’ edge had been carefully built between the trees, with wild grasses and long stalks of cultivated herbs bending lazily in the chilling wind. The area was thick with the smell of herbs, intermingled with the sharp, stinging scent of the coming rains. It was usually a comfort. Usually a feeling of safety.

Right now, though, it was...off.

The heavy front door was halfway open, and no light could be seen from within. The decorative wreath and spiraling horn they kept on the door had been knocked off and lay, unloved, in the dirt. The comfort of being home disappeared, sinking heavily into his stomach with the weight of fear. What happened? Where was Mom? Did she need help?

The butterflies in his stomach warred with the excitement pounding in his chest. This was his moment. The first of many. He could be a hero, if he could just push back his fear.

Steeling himself, Teph crouched low, like Celadir might. Moving slowly, carefully, he approached the cracked door, senses alert for anything off.

One step. Another. And then he was at his door.

What would Celadir do? Right. Check for traps. Trip-wires. Sounds of monsters past the doors.

…There was nothing.

Silence lay in wait just beyond, a stillness that made him hold his breath to quiet his own heartbeat. Fear was okay. Even Dad had said so. Fear was okay as long as it didn’t stop you completely.

He reached for the spiraling horn, the only potential weapon nearby, and his fingertips winked silver at him. His “magic,” there with him. It seemed to settle his heart and bring additional resolve; he knew this place inside and out. He would be okay. He would find whatever had broken into his home and bring it to justice.

One day I will save everyone. Let it start with this.

His fingers tightened around the curled horn, and with a mighty roar to make Ukhul the Just proud, Teph knocked the door completely open and charged inside, ready to fight.

The burst of sound startled the large figure shadowed in the corner, and it jumped to attention. Drawing itself to its full, massive height and towering over the boy, the shadows rolled off of a bent, pockmarked hide. The wrinkled, gnarled face loomed large, glowing, green eyes placed low on the face and emphasizing a hunched back and strong muscles. Magic gathered at two gnarled, meaty fists, and mighty Teph…screamed a high-pitch scream.

So did the figure.

The book the figure held flared as an illumination spell revealed the craggy, lined face of the green hag made plain. Teph barked out a surprised yelp and launched himself at it, dropping the curved horn and winding his arms tight around her.

The hag’s arms matched the boy’s, wrapping him up tightly. With the shock melting from her face, she squeezed him. “Sprout! You scared me.”

“Mom,” gasped Teph. “I saw the door and it wasn’t closed right and the wreath and knocker were on the ground and—”

Mom chuckled softly at the stream of words flowing from Teph’s mouth. “There, there, Sprout. All is well; I was just resting a bit. Catch probably just knocked the wreath loose trying to get in.” She looked around, her vivid, emerald eyes landing on her familiar. The spindly monkey drew the edge of the tablecloth around himself and chittered guiltily.

“See, there you go,” Mom said. “Did you bring the splitheart? Your father’s sure to be home soon.”

Teph nodded, handing over his collecting pouch and immediately starting for the bookshelf. He was safe, Mom was safe, and The Grand Adventures of the Golden Wayfarers called to him.

“Ah-ah,” Mom croaked, re-lighting the room’s mirrored lantern and letting her illumination spell fade. “Bath first. Story time later.”

“Mooooom,” whined Teph, giving up the path to the bookshelf even as he complained.

Several scrubbings later, after a change into fresh clothes, Father was home and the family basked in the glow of an over-full dinner table and a warm fire in the hearth.

Mom always made fantastic dinners, but they especially shone when Dad came home. The flatbreads were rolled tight and sliced extra-thin. She’d roasted peppers and tomatoes, skewering them between perfect, tender squares of meat. Roast honey-squash sweetened the air and lent a mouth-watering contrast to the sharp spice of the peppered rice. And for dessert? Hot cassava cakes with cold custard.

It almost made it worth the icky stuff.

Teph knew he should be happy; not everyone had parents who loved each other so much. Not everyone even had parents. And especially someone like him, a callow may with a human father and a hag mother; the relationship that birthed the changeling was something special. Something genuine.

A young boy with one blue eye and one green eye and silver paint on his fingernails rolls his eyes in the foreground as a human man and a hulking green hag canoodle in the background.

Illustration by Rashad Pozdnyakovfrom Pathfinder Lost Omens Ancestry Guide.

That didn’t stop him from being grossed out every time Dad came home, all lovey-dovey kissy-sissy. Tonight, it had been flowers and a poem.

“From seven bright meadows I gathered you flowers,
From seven great trees I gathered the dew,
And long have I been gone, just counting the hours
And following my heart’s Call here, home to you.”

Eww.

After clearing the food from the table, Teph grabbed The Grand Adventures of the Golden Wayfarers and high-tailed it into the garden. The rain hadn’t started yet; he could still get a few stories in before they called him for bedtime. He lit his lantern and settled onto the cracked stone bench near the weeper tree.

Partway through the second story, the trees groaned suddenly, snapping the boy’s attention as something at the edge of the garden erupted from the ground. Twisting, sharp, and half-hidden by the shadows, the thing creaked and crackled, sinews twisting in the dim light of the boy’s lantern.

And then it was silent again. Still. And not for the first time today, Teph’s heart raced as he faced down a potential danger. Hiding in the weeper tree’s folds, he carefully aimed his lantern in the direction of the thing, and paused as he tried to understand the sight.

It was…a tree, but not. Spiraling grains of branches twisted about themselves over and over, like a strange series of veins making one large, tall structure. The wood looked old and petrified, as though it hadn’t just been born from nothing.

Was it….a tooth? It couldn’t be; it was definitely wood. He knew that much at first glance. A giant, petrified wooden tooth, swirling and vein-like.

No, something in his mind insisted. Not just a tooth. Something far better! A mystery!

Real heroes solve mysteries, fight evil, and save the day. Let it start with this.

Eyes wide, heart pounding excitedly, Teph stepped toward the tree.

About the Author

Rachael Cruz is an award-winning writer / game designer. Her TRPG work can be found in numerous properties, including but not limited to Conan: Adventures in an Age Undreamed-Of, Corvus Belli’s Infinity RPG, Dune: Adventures in the Imperium, Fantasy Age, RuneQuest, and Star Trek Adventures. She has been helping people play pretend before it was cool. She also believes in you. Yes, you. Follow her on Twitter at @Witchwater!

About Tales of Lost Omens

The Tales of Lost Omens series of web-based flash fiction provides an exciting glimpse into Pathfinder’s Age of Lost Omens setting. Written by some of the most celebrated authors in tie-in gaming fiction, including Paizo’s Pathfinder Tales line of novels and short fiction, the Tales of Lost Omens series promises to explore the characters, deities, history, locations, and organizations of the Pathfinder setting with engaging stories to inspire Game Masters and players alike.

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I admit, i've not bought any PF2 material, but i've read the preview, review about them, and followed the "world" evolution as much as i could.

I can admit when one monster among many turn good (and yes, there are a few exemples here and there, the most incredible one being arueshalae from Wrath of the righteous in PF1).

But the general feeling i have with PF2 and its "lore" is that it seems less "rough" and more "nice" than before.

And it doesn't help it when we can now play doggy boys and kawaï plant things (leshy) - those things are too cartoonish for me (and yes, i know, Leshys were here in PF1 as well, but not as a playable race).

Silver Crusade

2 people marked this as a favorite.
meumeujeu wrote:
I admit, i've not bought any PF2 material.

...

And you’re also wrong, we had playable Leshies and TWO playable “doggy boys” in P1.

Dark Archive

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meumeujeu wrote:

I admit, i've not bought any PF2 material, but i've read the preview, review about them, and followed the "world" evolution as much as i could.

I can admit when one monster among many turn good (and yes, there are a few exemples here and there, the most incredible one being arueshalae from Wrath of the righteous in PF1).

But the general feeling i have with PF2 and its "lore" is that it seems less "rough" and more "nice" than before.

And it doesn't help it when we can now play doggy boys and kawaï plant things (leshy) - those things are too cartoonish for me (and yes, i know, Leshys were here in PF1 as well, but not as a playable race).

Well, vine leshies were playable in 1e though.

Anyway, what you are observing is more that 3.5 and early 1e pathfinder was focused on being darker and edgier counterpart to D&D resulting in stuff like "Bugbear culture is that they are all serial killers" and the "Drow are super evil, no Drizzt here, they totes successfully kill all non evil drow" and over course of 1e they mellowed out to "okay yeah, we admit non evil drow exists even if they are rare".

What Pathfinder has gained by time of 2e is nuance. Gnolls for examples are still evil cannibalistic slavery practicing raiders, but 2e acknowledges there exists more CN tribes focused on survivalism rather than slavery.

D&D often had issue of "Well why exactly are goblins evil besides bestiary statblock saying they are evil?" and PF answered that with "Well yeah, they are super duper evil they do lot of evil things all the time!". By 2e it evolved into "Well there are lot of evil goblins, but that doesn't make non evil goblin tribes impossible to exist or that good aligned people try to genocide them all the time, its not like Sarenrae has clearly declared goblins to be nonredeemable"

(but yeah, seriously, the dark stuff still exists in 2e, fleshwarping is still a thing, demons are still horrifying and urdefhans are still omnicidal. What it is is more that the paizo is saying all mortal species have more nuance to them than just "their culture is being evil".

That being said, 2e bugbears still love stalking and tormenting victims <_< They got really overlooked in the nuance department xD)

Liberty's Edge

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meumeujeu wrote:

I admit, i've not bought any PF2 material, but i've read the preview, review about them, and followed the "world" evolution as much as i could.

I can admit when one monster among many turn good (and yes, there are a few exemples here and there, the most incredible one being arueshalae from Wrath of the righteous in PF1).

But the general feeling i have with PF2 and its "lore" is that it seems less "rough" and more "nice" than before.

And it doesn't help it when we can now play doggy boys and kawaï plant things (leshy) - those things are too cartoonish for me (and yes, i know, Leshys were here in PF1 as well, but not as a playable race).

For what it's worth, both leshies and canine humanoids were playable ancestries in Pathfinder 1. I don't think it's particularly fair to argue that Pathfinder 2 has fundamentally changed a lot of the lore - it's simply making allowances for differences within a group. There's a consistent trend in the settings of D&D, Pathfinder 1, and many popular fantasy settings in general to generalise monsters to such a degree that they are essentially interchangeable copies of each other with little in the way of unique personality. While there are some exceptions, there's not much differentiation between these creatures - and most of them aren't extraplanar creatures, who are fundamentally difficult to change. Pathfinder 2 has acknowledged that this makes for a less nuanced and interesting experience than allowing for the uniqueness that should be present in (at least) all mortal creatures - one's assumption upon seeing an orc to assume that you can violently murder them because they're an abhorrent creature shouldn't be validated by the rules of the system and the lore of the setting. If you look at the vast majority of creatures that are discussed on this point, their default alignment hasn't changed - hags still default to evil, goblins to evil, giants to evil, fiends most definitely to evil. The acknowledgement that creatures possessing free will shouldn't be assumed to be unrepentantly evil by their very nature, in my opinion, allows for more interesting stories to occur in the setting, and Paizo is hardly making every monster Good, as you're claiming.

Dark Archive

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I do think they do more showcasing the rare examples in blog fiction and such, previously you kinda had to comb through aps and campaign setting book to find one paragraph/page featuring them. Arueshalae is pretty much only 1e AP rare example featured in prominent role iirc

Anyhoo, I do object to idea that 2e is noticeable more kid friendly than 1e(considering that pretty much everything in 1e is still canon in 2e like the ogres), but there is definitely difference in presentation and nuance. I do think people shouldn't attack people for having difference in opinion since I can understand that if they got in for Pathfinder being obviously darker and more shocking than D&D that they would get worried if they haven't gotten chance to see that those parts still exist.

(most obvious difference in presentation are once again goblins: When goblins are presented in PC option books, suddenly text focuses on their positive aspects. And since they are Core book pc option, the non evil goblin tribes also get more focus in setting material. Meanwhile whenever evil goblin tribes are mentioned, its whiplash back to 1e goblin writing)


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(for the record, when i say "doggy boys", i was refering to their cartoonish look. The Rougarou doesn't look as goofy as those ... errr ... things ... in PF2).

I guess my problem is that most of PF2 tales seems to go with the "look, this usually evil monster is good !" route, to the point it seems its the norm.

I remember reading a tale about a troll trying to be monk, a few months back. The whole thing seemed so idiotic to me ... but maybe it's just me.

(and before someone says it, yes i know, there are neutral troll in kaer maga, they are oracle, etc ... but a troll becoming a monk ? Meaning, he has the capability to focus, to have a mental state stable enough to be one and the will to train, learn a martial art and so on ? Without being tempted to eat his fellow disciples when hunger hit ? That's a bit too much for me).

Dark Archive

Rysky wrote:
meumeujeu wrote:
I admit, i've not bought any PF2 material.

...

And you’re also wrong, we had playable Leshies and TWO playable “doggy boys” in P1.

...wait, what is the second one? Rogarou was one of them, but what is second canine 1e player option?

(either way though, I doubt either of them were pugs like shoony are)

Dark Archive

meumeujeu wrote:

(for the record, when i say "doggy boys", i was refering to their cartoonish look. The Rougarou doesn't look as goofy as those ... errr ... things ... in PF2).

I guess my problem is that most of PF2 tales seems to go with the "look, this usually evil monster is good !" route, to the point it seems its the norm.

I remember reading a tale about a troll trying to be monk, a few months back. The whole thing seemed so idiotic to me ... but maybe it's just me.

(and before someone says it, yes i know, there are neutral troll in kaer maga, they are oracle, etc ... but a troll becoming a monk ? Meaning, he has the capability to focus, to have a mental state stable enough to be one and the will to train, learn a martial art and so on ? Without being tempted to eat his fellow disciples when hunger hit ? That's a bit too much for me).

I don't remember that fiction myself? Did I miss it?

Though on sidenote, ye gotta admit that there is chance of there being LE monk troll somewhere in 1e adventures because that sounds like possibly nasty combo ;D You can't stop combination of mechanics to create something pcs dread!

(though seriously if there was troll monk, you'd likely find one in Kaer Maga. I could swear though, wasn't there evil mad scientist troll in Absalom in 3.5 Absalom book?)

But yeah back to the other thing, I do think its more that blog fiction have focused on rarer aspects of setting than fiction did in 1e. There is also that I genuinely think Paizo writers like introducing characters that play against their type, so paizo does that thing a lot where they setup a stereotype of what monsters are like and then have at least one monster in random adventure be like "Nah, see this is the goblin wizard who thinks reading is the best idea!"


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concerning the troll trying to be monk, if i remember right, the story being with him fighting Sajan, like it's your average "PC versus monster fight", until it is revealed that they are doing a sparring match in some monastery.

(and yes, some monster/class combo can be dirty ... my players remember Mokmurian well from Rise : "so, what ? It's a wizard without any of the wizard weaknesses ? That's nasty !")

Dark Archive

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Ah I missed it because I kinda glanced over the iconic short stories xD (that one sounds like classic bait and switch twist)

(and yeah, stone giant wizards really show you why the rule for "only had half cr for each level of class that monster is unsuited for" allows for really op builds :'D )

(I still want to know what is second 1e doggo option btw <_<; I might be cat person but I like doggos too..)

Silver Crusade

Witchwolves, also Gnolls if you wanna count them.


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CorvusMask wrote:
Ah I missed it because I kinda glanced over the iconic short stories xD (that one sounds like classic bait and switch twist)

It's a bit of a bait and switch, but it's still a cool little story. Not really a twist ending.

Dark Archive

thejeff wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
Ah I missed it because I kinda glanced over the iconic short stories xD (that one sounds like classic bait and switch twist)
It's a bit of a bait and switch, but it's still a cool little story. Not really a twist ending.

I mean I did mean that in good way :D (not that twist endings are automatically bad either)

Grand Archive

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Also, the bestiary entries are "the ones most likely to face the PCs", they are not "All Trolls have these stats"
Like, there are many ghouls in some AP in PF2 that have very different stats from the ghoul entry in the bestiary.
For the same reason, tiefling won't all have the same stats like the one in the bestiary. It was also the same in PF1.

(And about the Shoonies looking too "cartoonish"...
Have you ever seen a pug? They are pug people... how could you not make them look like pugs?
They were made by Aroden, from one of the less healthy breeds of dogs, and made into humanoid people that have respiratory problems only so he can have cute doggy people to keep him company... That's iffy af and kinda dark TBH. Not cartoony.)


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^Pug companion for reference.

Dark Archive

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UnArcaneElection wrote:

^Pug companion for reference.

That looks like Pug hostage to me


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i think this is a bit of selection bias. You're seeing a few examples of typically bad creatures being good and assuming "bad things are good" is the new norm. This is actually the exact opposite, what you're being shown in these stories are the vast minority, but because they're in the minority that makes them interesting to write stories about. "evil hag #427 tortures her twelfth victim" doesn't really make for a captivating story imo, so even though typically evil monsters being evil is the most common occurence the most story-worthy examples of those creatures is when they break the norm.


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KaiBlob1 wrote:
i think this is a bit of selection bias. You're seeing a few examples of typically bad creatures being good and assuming "bad things are good" is the new norm. This is actually the exact opposite, what you're being shown in these stories are the vast minority, but because they're in the minority that makes them interesting to write stories about. "evil hag #427 tortures her twelfth victim" doesn't really make for a captivating story imo, so even though typically evil monsters being evil is the most common occurence the most story-worthy examples of those creatures is when they break the norm.

OTOH, at a certain point the trope inversions become dominant and the expectations do shift. When the majority of the examples you see are the minority exceptions, that becomes the norm.

Now, short story blog posts aren't likely enough to make that shift, but doing it often enough in adventures could.

Paizo Employee Director of Brand Strategy

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As there are no stats for this particular hag, can anyone be sure that she's good? Mightn't she be neutral? Or even evil and simply in love and raising a kid? Nothing says that evil creatures can't have loving families and stable home lives, just that they might be motivated by personal power and are willing to hurt others (that they don't care about) to get it. I'm not saying she is evil, but as this is a work of fiction and not definitive game mechanics, I think there's some room for interpretation. We simply don't have enough of a view of her interactions with others and her motivations to know for certain.


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Well, given how hags usually end up eating their lovers, i think its safe to assume this one is a good one.

(that, or she prefer elven or dwarven meat - who knows ?)

More seriously, the thing that bother me lately with PF2 is ... well, i don't know how to tell it without looking offensive (and english is not my native langage), but here goes :

it seems to me that Paizo is trying damn hard to be super inclusive. And it's a good thing, most of the time.

But when i see all those stories about monsters being good/nice, or things like that, now, creatures who where locked in a specific gender (like harpies or changeling) can be both sex, well ...

I can understand the reason why : maybe someone wants to play a male changeling, or is fed up with the "evil woman" trope convoyed by harpies. Maybe someone wants is LG paladin to have a troll as best buddy. But its becoming so strong that it starts to force all creatures in the same mold.

By erasing those things who used to be part of the creatures identity, by trying to have some sort of "equality" between all creatures, well ... they are making the setting a bit more bland : what's the point of having that creature or another if they all share the same traits and "normality" ? (to me, at least - i'm not forcing my views on anyone).

I like to have my stupids, evil trolls. I like to have my scheming, vicious hag. I like my crazy, dog-killers, fire-worshipping goblins. Each of those traits makes them all uniques in lots of way. But if they all can be good, nice people, with nothing too edgy or problematic, what make them different from one another ? At this rate, Goblin might be as well some sort of green halflings.

(A short who comic to explain it in two panels : https://www.nerfnow.com/comic/2852)

And again, i'm not trying to fight everyone and try to prove i'm right and you're wrong. It's just my feelings.

Dark Archive

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On sidenote, I feel tempted to do minor rant on Nerfnow because I'm annoyed about when it shifted from making jokes to author ranting about good old days consistently :p

Anyhoo, ye say that but goblins still have weapons such as dogslicers and horsechoppers. Age of Ashes book 1 does have unusually extremely nice goblin tribe, but again if ye bother reading anything about 2e, read this link

Also more importantly, ye are asking the wrong question. You are asking "if hag can be good, what makes monsters different from other people?" when you should be asking "why aren't most hags good? Why is this hag good?" or "why not a good aligned hag?"

Silver Crusade

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meumeujeu wrote:
But its becoming so strong that it starts to force all creatures in the same mold.

Yes, cause it’s not like they’ve been forced in the same mold until now for decades or anything.

They used to be always Evil. You’re conflating “they can be any alignment/have more freedom in their alignment” with “they all have to be Good”.

Always Evil kill on sight is a forced mold, freedom in alignment is not.

Liberty's Edge

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meumeujeu wrote:
I like to have my stupids, evil trolls. I like to have my scheming, vicious hag. I like my crazy, dog-killers, fire-worshipping goblins. Each of those traits makes them all uniques in lots of way. But if they all can be good, nice people, with nothing too edgy or problematic, what make them different from one another ? At this rate, Goblin might be as well some sort of green halflings.

For what it's worth, it's certainly not my intention to fight you over your feelings, but to explain my perspective on the changes made - but I can see how it'd feel that way if everyone is responding with disagreement. I think the advantage of the PF2 changes in lore (to me) is related to the section I've quoted. I find the evil trolls, the malevolent child goblins, the scheming hags, and most all the other evil creatures really, are more interesting because they've chosen to act the way they have. It makes for a more compelling and interesting story - you're not saying 'goblins charge into town and kill people because they're goblins, so why would they do anything else?', you're discussing why these goblins did it in particular. Did they do it because they were starving and needed food? Did they do it because they worship an evil goblin deity who sent an emissary who leads them in the fight against the other people living nearby? Did they do it because they were convinced the humans lived atop a pile of treasure that they wanted? Did they do it because they were manipulated into fighting by a local who benefited from it? The answer to any of these questions leads to interesting possibilities - which can result in the goblins varying from 'cartoonishly evil' to 'evil but manipulated' to 'fundamentally in the right', depending on the story you want to tell. It doesn't prevent you from telling stories about cartoonishly evil creatures, but it does encourage you to ask the question of why the creatures are acting the way they are - because if all goblins are always cartoonishly evil, then there's no reason to ask the question. And the question makes for more interesting stories, which is the main reason I support the change - I enjoy the game more when there's an interesting reason that the antagonists of the story are behaving the way they behave, even if they're still behaving in cartoonishly evil fashions.

Dark Archive

Arcaian wrote:
meumeujeu wrote:
I like to have my stupids, evil trolls. I like to have my scheming, vicious hag. I like my crazy, dog-killers, fire-worshipping goblins. Each of those traits makes them all uniques in lots of way. But if they all can be good, nice people, with nothing too edgy or problematic, what make them different from one another ? At this rate, Goblin might be as well some sort of green halflings.
For what it's worth, it's certainly not my intention to fight you over your feelings, but to explain my perspective on the changes made - but I can see how it'd feel that way if everyone is responding with disagreement. I think the advantage of the PF2 changes in lore (to me) is related to the section I've quoted. I find the evil trolls, the malevolent child goblins, the scheming hags, and most all the other evil creatures really, are more interesting because they've chosen to act the way they have. It makes for a more compelling and interesting story - you're not saying 'goblins charge into town and kill people because they're goblins, so why would they do anything else?', you're discussing why these goblins did it in particular. Did they do it because they were starving and needed food? Did they do it because they worship an evil goblin deity who sent an emissary who leads them in the fight against the other people living nearby? Did they do it because they were convinced the humans lived atop a pile of treasure that they wanted? Did they do it because they were manipulated into fighting by a local who benefited from it? The answer to any of these questions leads to interesting possibilities - which can result in the goblins varying from 'cartoonishly evil' to 'evil but manipulated' to 'fundamentally in the right', depending on the story you want to tell. It doesn't prevent you from telling stories about cartoonishly evil creatures, but it does encourage you to ask the question of why the creatures are acting the way they are - because if all goblins are always cartoonishly evil, then...

Ye said it much better :'D


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Mark Moreland wrote:
As there are no stats for this particular hag, can anyone be sure that she's good? Mightn't she be neutral? Or even evil and simply in love and raising a kid? Nothing says that evil creatures can't have loving families and stable home lives, just that they might be motivated by personal power and are willing to hurt others (that they don't care about) to get it. I'm not saying she is evil, but as this is a work of fiction and not definitive game mechanics, I think there's some room for interpretation. We simply don't have enough of a view of her interactions with others and her motivations to know for certain.

But we CAN look carefully at the numerous small spooky objects in plain sight around the cabin . . . .

meumeujeu wrote:

Well, given how hags usually end up eating their lovers, i think its safe to assume this one is a good one.

(that, or she prefer elven or dwarven meat - who knows ?) {. . .}

Or maybe she's just being careful about her cholesterol . . . .

Liberty's Edge

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I am pretty sure the Graul extended family is still out there, as well as all the other gruesome despicable monsters. It is just that the more gentle, and often much rarer, cousins are getting a bit more exposure these days to show that they too exist.

Grand Archive

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Pathfinder Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Arcaian wrote:
meumeujeu wrote:
I like to have my stupids, evil trolls. I like to have my scheming, vicious hag. I like my crazy, dog-killers, fire-worshipping goblins. Each of those traits makes them all uniques in lots of way. But if they all can be good, nice people, with nothing too edgy or problematic, what make them different from one another ? At this rate, Goblin might be as well some sort of green halflings.
For what it's worth, it's certainly not my intention to fight you over your feelings, but to explain my perspective on the changes made - but I can see how it'd feel that way if everyone is responding with disagreement. I think the advantage of the PF2 changes in lore (to me) is related to the section I've quoted. I find the evil trolls, the malevolent child goblins, the scheming hags, and most all the other evil creatures really, are more interesting because they've chosen to act the way they have. It makes for a more compelling and interesting story - you're not saying 'goblins charge into town and kill people because they're goblins, so why would they do anything else?', you're discussing why these goblins did it in particular. Did they do it because they were starving and needed food? Did they do it because they worship an evil goblin deity who sent an emissary who leads them in the fight against the other people living nearby? Did they do it because they were convinced the humans lived atop a pile of treasure that they wanted? Did they do it because they were manipulated into fighting by a local who benefited from it? The answer to any of these questions leads to interesting possibilities - which can result in the goblins varying from 'cartoonishly evil' to 'evil but manipulated' to 'fundamentally in the right', depending on the story you want to tell. It doesn't prevent you from telling stories about cartoonishly evil creatures, but it does encourage you to ask the question of why the creatures are acting the way they are - because if all goblins are always cartoonishly evil, then...

Fun fact: The FIRST EVER Paizo AP has many NPCs wondering WHY the goblins attacked the town. Because they never did before. They were evil. But they stayed in their tribes, even scavenging directly in the local junkyard right next to the town, without attacking people without provocations. EVEN THEN they were not mindless homicidal maniacs. A bit crazy, often cruel and sadistic, easy to manipulate into attacking a town, yeah. But ALL big historical goblin attacks on Golarion have always been directed by bigger threats, like hobgoblin armies, some particularly violent and ambitious bugbears, or some Lamashtu cultists.

There's also at least one goblin you can talk to and negotiate with, that was against the attack.

So yes. I agree 100% with you.


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I mean, realistically the only people who have been fighting against goblins, trolls, and orcs for the last 30 years and need to be disabused of the notion "they are always bad and should be faced with violence" are the players. People in the diagesis mostly live in towns and villages that rarely get attacked by anything in particular (since towns and villages that are regularly under attack aren't likely to thrive sufficiently so that a lot of people live there.)

To wit, if your neighbors are going to burn down your house every month- stop building houses there.


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Elfteiroh wrote:
Fun fact: The FIRST EVER Paizo AP has many NPCs wondering WHY the goblins attacked the town.

Also the big bad for that entry is an Aasimar. Playing against type isn't exactly new for Paizo.


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When my players were facing spriggans (coincidentally working for an evil hag), they asked, "Is it OK to just kill them? Are they inherently evil?" To which I replied something like, "They're not inherently evil, they have free will. But they slide easily into evil, because they are incapable of feeling joy. So make of that what you will."

Liberty's Edge

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Elfteiroh wrote:

Fun fact: The FIRST EVER Paizo AP has many NPCs wondering WHY the goblins attacked the town. Because they never did before. They were evil. But they stayed in their tribes, even scavenging directly in the local junkyard right next to the town, without attacking people without provocations. EVEN THEN they were not mindless homicidal maniacs. A bit crazy, often cruel and sadistic, easy to manipulate into attacking a town, yeah. But ALL big historical goblin attacks on Golarion have always been directed by bigger threats, like hobgoblin armies, some particularly violent and ambitious bugbears, or some Lamashtu cultists.

There's also at least one goblin you can talk to and negotiate with, that was against the attack.

So yes. I agree 100% with you.

Exactly! I was definitely thinking about the fact that this has been true since Paizo's earlier days as writing it, but didn't want to get too off-point for the post. I can't imagine there being almost any tables that would've had a more enjoyable experience in RotRL if the goblins were attacking simply because goblins have to be evil and do evil things. Paizo's consistently done a good job of presenting interesting enemies in all their content I've run or played in, and I think this move towards moral complexity in previously homogenously evil groups is just a good way for them to take that nuance a little further.


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Elfteiroh wrote:

{. . .}

Fun fact: The FIRST EVER Paizo AP has many NPCs wondering WHY the goblins attacked the town. {. . .}

Actually, it isn't the first ever Paizo AP (by 2 places), but it is the first one set in Golarion.


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Grim/darker/grittier/edgier work has value and can certainly be interesting. But being dark isn't the same as having nuance. Nuance is an entirely different scale that can apply to fluffy happy things, edgy sad things, and everything in between.

The various points above are more important, I'm just throwing my hat at this one specific subject.

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