Help Paizo Celebrate Kingmaker's 10th Anniversary!

By the point that theyre back to playing 2nd banana to WotC, who really cares about Paizo is my point.

I'm skeptical about 2e too, but for chrissakes, people, they aren't going to invest significant effort in publishing another hardcover for 1e with the 2e launch in August, they aren't kicking your puppies, and they aren't whizzing in your corn flakes. PF1 has pretty much run its course as a product capable of sustaining the needs of the business and I'm willing to bet Paizo's sales data backs that up with all sorts of diminishing returns on the rules supplements.

They've always played second banana. It was just a larger banana than before.

By the point that theyre back to playing 2nd banana to WotC, who really cares about Paizo is my point.

I do for one. I think they're great people doing fantastic work. They don't always produce what I'd like them to, but I care about Paizo far more than I care about most other companies I deal with.

If playing 2nd banana to WotC means they can keep doing what they love, I'm all for it. Far better than everyone there losing their jobs.

My personal preference would have been for them to stick with PF1 but that was clearly unviable. It's disappointing and I wish it wasn't so, but I don't want them to stubbornly go broke sticking to a system that is no longer selling.

This is tangential to the original topic (which I am excited about!), but does anyone know who has the rights to the Savage Tide adventure path? It was published in DUNGEON magazine back when Paizo was producing DRAGON and DUNGEON.

Paizo did put out a compilation of the Shackled City AP, but I believe that was while they were still doing the magazines.

I guess what I'm really saying is that some day I'd love to have a compilation of Savage Tide as well, but it seems unlikely that one will ever be produced. Oh, and while we're at it, how about one for Age of Worms as well?

Wizards of the Coast own the rights to Age of Worms and Savage Tide.

I believe they own the rights to Shackled City as well - my understanding is that Paizo produced that compilation under license, but don't retain ownership of the IP or publishing rights (so couldn't do a reprint/update, for example).

I'd rather see rest of 3.5 APs updated, but if this means one of stretch goals will be giving one of the Eldest from CRPG version an actual 1e statblock, I'd be okay with that :D

They've always played second banana. It was just a larger banana than before.

They did basically achieve parity with WotC and D&D right around the time of 4e's D&D Essentials. That's not just second banana, though admittedly it was during the one edition of D&D that, on its own merits, could not keep its publisher in the 800-lb gorilla throne.

But it is true that a more D&Dish edition of D&D (which 5e is) was always going to surge back to that throne and pass PF again.

Ultimately, Paizo's in a tough position. The PF1 rule system is as complete as it's going to get and it creaks with age and clutter, absolutely begging for a new edition to revitalize core sales. But the industry isn't in the same state as it was when PF1 came out so there's less likelihood of it making the same splash and be the same sensation. Meanwhile, 5e has got meteoric popularity and there's a major potential market for more adventure, campaign, and monster content, yet for Paizo to significantly invest in supporting it, they'd undercut their own PF2 (and PF1 for that matter) and make them probably too dependent on WotC's IP again... and that nearly killed them before.

Anyhoo, if this version gets updates from CRPG version, I hope it doesn't get plot points adaptions from CRPG version.

Mostly because CRPG version changes things radically, and not always for better. I mean, most of it is cutting content, like centaurs, bog striders, Fort Drelev and then changing everything to connect to Nyrissa in more obvious way while making the big bads feel less independent.

I am excited for this product, having GMed/DMed my campaigns in Golarion over the span of its existence (3.5E, PF1, and 5E). It truely is the richest campaign setting I have ever run (and I have run more than I care to list here, having played every edition of the game. I find it easy to covert Paizo AP content to my current rule system (5E) and I imagine converting PF2 material to PF1 will be just as easy.

I have a great deal of compassion for some of the passionate posts in this thread. It is trestimony to how great of a company Paizo is that it has such devoted fans. Even though I stopped using the PF1 rules set years ago, once 5E won my heart and mind, I never stopped buying PF Campaign setting, APs, and Pawns. I hope the same will be true for devoted PF1 players who don't switch to PF2.

Excited for this product!!! Heck, maybe it hooks me into PF2 rule set?!?

Edit: And totally stoked to buy my first 5E product form Paizo!

As someone who actually has the original, I'm curious to know if this will include new content, and to what degree. I don't mean updated stats and systems for more modern editions - that goes without saying, under the circumstances - but new flavor, story content, that sort of thing.

In any case, I support this project. Even if I'd rather have a fully updated and improved Second Darkness. ^_^

I love the 1e APs but want to play 2e, so any conversion to 2e meets my unadulterated love and support. Yes to all APs for 2e!

And good move giving the 5e crowd something to sink their teeth into. This might garner Paizo some new customers who want something more customizable and crunchy than 5e - very clever!

Let the past die.

*sets his PF1 Kingmaker PDFs on fire*

Kill it, if you have to.

*anxiously awaits the Kingmaker PF2/5E Kickstarter*

Actually thinking about it, if all 2e aps are now to level 20, does this mean this hardcover update will be as well?

(well even if it doesn't involve 1e eldest statblocks, I wouldn't mind if at least one of eldest got stats in this one. I don't think it has to be the one from crpg anyway because I don't think any one particular eldest was the "important" one in the original version, at least according to my gm they were just "eldest in general" in term of importance)

Kingmaker is by far and away my favourite of all the APs. Will watch this with interest!

This is a wonderful idea, and by kickstarting it on Gameontabletop, I very much hope one of the Stretch Goals will be translations! A German Hardcover of this would be wonderful.

Hi! Hello. Um I might have a few ideas for content to add to an updated compilation edition of Kingmaker that have been loved by many groups over the years ;-)

Stolen Land Toolbox
Hargulka’s Monster Kingdom
Dudemeister’s Varnhold Vanishingly Additions and Changes
Dudemeister’s Blood for Blood
Irovetti’s Clockworks Kingdom

I also have Legendary Beasts that stalked the Stolen Lands as optional bosses for each region. My additions and changes are very much expansions on the original spirit of the adventures and I would love to help bring them to the next edition of Pathfinder and 5e! :-)

I'd like to take a moment to disclose that I am a friend of the Dude Meister, but more importantly I had the pleasure of playing in his Kingmaker game.

His additions added depth the the trials we faced and would be well placed in an expanded edition

Re: editions, I'd look 5e or Pe2 in the future, but if 1e was an option i would snap it up. It's what my group are still playing with

I think it would be too weird to have single player's changes added to remake without them being paid for it :P

Also, I kinda feel like taking one poster's changes and making them canon is essentially saying "Hey, you all other GMs who run the thing as written or had your own personalized version of the campaign? This GM did it much better than you did" aka its kinda like playing favourites.

Then again, I absolutely find it bizarre when people say "My GM is the best GM" because to me that sort of hyperbole says "Your GM is worse than my GM" even though thats not what people intend to say when they use hyperbole to gush about their GM. I think it might a cultural thing to boast or use superlatives like that that I just find bizarre from perspective of culture where everyone thinks you are arrogant just for saying you are great at something :p (like its okay to say you are good at something, or someone else is great at something, but if you say you yourself are great at something you are seeing as doing arrogant boasting)

Correct me if I'm wrong.

The hardcover version of the AP will have no 5E rules in it or a version for that system. There will be a Bestiary however, completely compatible with 5E. Kingmaker will continue to be a Pathfinder exclusive adventure.

Because I'm seeing people overreacting to the 5E Bestiary, in a way it sounds as if there will be a version of the Hardcover for it... And by the blogpost, it seems there won't.

Right?

Yeah, basically according to the blog, there will be 5e bestiary so you can use the hardcover version to run the adventure and just replace statblocks with 5e bestiary when needed to.

Please, for the love of god make a 1E version too. It's a campaign i run regularly with newer groups and it's always been in first edition.

I'd like to see you add in the opening from the video game as i found after converting it, it worked pretty well at giving the players a foothold into the AP and a rival right off the bat.

But once again, please make it for 1E, or both. I'd pay more, i don't mind

Correct me if I'm wrong.

The hardcover version of the AP will have no 5E rules in it or a version for that system. There will be a Bestiary however, completely compatible with 5E. Kingmaker will continue to be a Pathfinder exclusive adventure.

Because I'm seeing people overreacting to the 5E Bestiary, in a way it sounds as if there will be a version of the Hardcover for it... And by the blogpost, it seems there won't.

Right?

I suspect it will depend on how the crowdfunding pans out.

Whoop! This sounds great!
An updated and refined Kingmaker for 2e is definately something I'll buy. I haven't played Kingmaker in 1e and currently have another campaign running. So if I wanna play Kingmaker in the future, having it in the new ruleset would be awesome.

Releasing a bestiary for 5e seems like it is sending mixed messages about the future of PF2 even before it has been released.

They overtook D&D because they had a superior product.

They never overtook D&D. They outperformed in 1 quarter and that was it.

eddv wrote:

By the point that theyre back to playing 2nd banana to WotC, who really cares about Paizo is my point.

I do for one. I think they're great people doing fantastic work. They don't always produce what I'd like them to, but I care about Paizo far more than I care about most other companies I deal with.

If playing 2nd banana to WotC means they can keep doing what they love, I'm all for it. Far better than everyone there losing their jobs.

My personal preference would have been for them to stick with PF1 but that was clearly unviable. It's disappointing and I wish it wasn't so, but I don't want them to stubbornly go broke sticking to a system that is no longer selling.

Yep. To further lay it out (with numbers I'm just making up)

4th Edition era:
D&D: 50 million in profits
Paizo: 5 million in profits

5th Edition era:
D&D: 100 million in profits
Paizo: 20 million in profits

The only way this could be seen as a negative is out of vanity or arrogance. This isn't some Saturday morning cartoon where Paizo has to make more money than D&D by the end of the month or they'll go out of business for... reasons.

Because that's not how businesses work.

Frankly, a 5e Paizo would basically be no Paizo at all.

If PF makes it to a fifth edition (perhaps in 2049-ish, based on it taking 10 years to go from 1st to 2nd edition?), Paizo will be doing well.

And the core book may well be thick enough to stop a bullet. Or as thin as a pamphlet on notorious Amish computer hackers. Hard to see, the future is.

Just to counterbalance all the "if it's not for 1e it's crap" posts, I'll just say I'm absolutely going to pick this up, definitely the 2e version and probably the 5e bestiary.

Can we have EU-friendly shipping options for this campaign, please? (i.e. an option for European customers to have physical products shipped from within the European Union)

Oh, and one thing would really love to have as an addon or stretch goal is a Vincent Dutrait artbook.

Just to counterbalance all the "if it's not for 1e it's crap" posts, I'll just say I'm absolutely going to pick this up, definitely the 2e version and probably the 5e bestiary.

Same, I loved Kingmaker when I ran it. But by then PF1 was 7 years old and already extremely unbalanced causing a lot of trouble in my group. Having my favourite AP in a more playable system will be great.

Releasing a bestiary for 5e seems like it is sending mixed messages about the future of PF2 even before it has been released.

Actually, this seems more like an instrument to get D&D 5E players interested in Pathfinder and maybe get them to convert.

Unfortunately I will not follow the PF2e.

Then, happy trails, friend.

I have almost every PF 1.0 product and we are still playing it regularely.
The Playtest didn´t appeal to any of the people i played it with.
I preordered all of august´s PF 2nd. edition stuff and the first AP "Age of Ashes" to support Paizo and to give them the chance to win me over with 2E.

I have not played the computer game, but two of my players & one of my fellow GMs do. I heard good & bad things.

I will take a look at the gameontabletop.com project on tuesday.
As i don´t know if we´ll switch permanently to 2E, i don´t know if i need this.
I own all Kingmaker AP books (the first in german language, the rest in english), but not the map folio.
If there will be a 1E stretch goal, i will none the less back the project immediately.
If not, it will depend on the price and other stretch goals.

To all the people that say Pathfinder 1E is dead, i have to say: no it isn´t. It may not sell as well anymore, but there are still products coming out (even beyond august 2019) and lots of backstock is being sold worldwide.

2E WILL sell well initially, but it isn´t a given long-time success.
I know a lot of great systems, which 2nd edition versions were bad and didn´t sell long-term.
Hopefully PF 2E will be a good system and offer a complex but easy to learn rpg experience.

By the point that theyre back to playing 2nd banana to WotC, who really cares about Paizo is my point.

As other people pointed out, this entry into the 5e market makes Paizo a lot more visible to the D&D community -- and when they see Paizo material, they might move over to Pathfinder (which, ironically, I'd call Advanced D&D).

Even if that doesn't work, this move gives Paizo access to an important revenue stream and more of a chance to do what they do best. I grew up with AD&D 1e in the 80s. I have to say I very much prefer what Paizo has been doing with the game over what WotC has done. So, anything that moves Paizo along has my complete support.

BTW, WotC did not create D&D -- they bought it (and TSR).

What 5e support from Paizo? Sweet! I hope this becomes a trend.

I'm happy to pick up this product regardless of what edition it is for. I hope it does well so we can see more like it in the future.

Aldarc wrote:

Releasing a bestiary for 5e seems like it is sending mixed messages about the future of PF2 even before it has been released.

Actually, this seems more like an instrument to get D&D 5E players interested in Pathfinder and maybe get them to convert.

Yep, this totally seems to be the intent here.

Cool, I had just been crawling e-bay and amazon for copies of the out of print books to run in a 5E game. Great to hear this!

No way will I back this after getting ripped off on the Ninja Division Starfinder minis and crap results from Goblinworks. What a shame as this is the best of the APs but I've just lost my trust for Paizo crowd sourcing.

Good Luck y'all

No way will I back this after getting ripped off on the Ninja Division Starfinder minis and crap results from Goblinworks. What a shame as this is the best of the APs but I've just lost my trust for Paizo crowd sourcing.

Good Luck y'all

Paizo itself has delivered everything they crowd sourced as a publisher, their issue is in judging the ability of other businesses to deliver on their promises.

J-Bone wrote:

No way will I back this after getting ripped off on the Ninja Division Starfinder minis and crap results from Goblinworks. What a shame as this is the best of the APs but I've just lost my trust for Paizo crowd sourcing.

Good Luck y'all

Paizo itself has delivered everything they crowd sourced as a publisher, their issue is in judging the ability of other businesses to deliver on their promises.

Plus Emerald Spire was neat.

I am thoroughly on board with this. Kingmaker the AP has always seemed like a triumph of magnificent ideas over solid-but-not-great execution, so a revised, rereleased AP is <i>definitely</i> my cup of tea. Owlcat did a lot of good work on the CRPG, it'll be great to have it backported into PF.

Also, I am quite happy on having it be PF2 (really, I can't imagine who'd think it would be otherwise), and the D&D5E bestiary seems a fairly shrewd play to lure new gamers in.

Overall, count me as quite pleased.

(Carrion Crown afterwards? :D)

By the point that theyre back to playing 2nd banana to WotC, who really cares about Paizo is my point.

You actually came to the Paizo boards just to say "who really cares about Paizo"?!?

Damn, the Internet is weird.

Former PF1 diehard, optimistic PF2 enthusiast here.

I've been anxiously awaiting a Kingmaker hardcover since the RotRL Hardcover was announced. I'm a huge fan of the AP and in many ways, it established Paizo as the company who "gets" the heritage of AD&D more than any other company.

Coming off the CRPG version of the game, this is the perfect way to support the PF2 launch. Although I was initially taken aback by the 5e bestiary, I can see the business logic of having a gateway vehicle for introducing 5e players to PF2.

Can't wait to see this baby in it's full PF2 glory! I didn't think we'd see PF2 Kingdom Building this quickly, but it's very welcome. I do hope KB gets refinement over the PF1 version, however.

Dudemeister plugged his work. If there's a hardcover, I would love, love to see it incorporate the material that Kingmaker GMs have posted on the forum over the years. We all put a lot of love into our campaigns, and we loved seeing other people take our creations and make something even bigger.

Former PF1 diehard, optimistic PF2 enthusiast here.

I've been anxiously awaiting a Kingmaker hardcover since the RotRL Hardcover was announced. I'm a huge fan of the AP and in many ways, it established Paizo as the company who "gets" the heritage of AD&D more than any other company.

Coming off the CRPG version of the game, this is the perfect way to support the PF2 launch. Although I was initially taken aback by the 5e bestiary, I can see the business logic of having a gateway vehicle for introducing 5e players to PF2.

Can't wait to see this baby in it's full PF2 glory! I didn't think we'd see PF2 Kingdom Building this quickly, but it's very welcome. I do hope KB gets refinement over the PF1 version, however.

I am also wondering if with the downtime system part of the Core if that will make it much easier to incorporate the kingdom building rules.

Anyhoo, if this version gets updates from CRPG version, I hope it doesn't get plot points adaptions from CRPG version.

Mostly because CRPG version changes things radically, and not always for better. I mean, most of it is cutting content, like centaurs, bog striders, Fort Drelev and then changing everything to connect to Nyrissa in more obvious way while making the big bads feel less independent.

{my bold}

This was most likely 100% in response to customer feedback. One of the (few) major complaints on the boards about Kingmaker was that the BBEG "came out of nowhere" in the last book and wasn't foreshadowed enough in the earlier volumes.

CorvusMask wrote:

Anyhoo, if this version gets updates from CRPG version, I hope it doesn't get plot points adaptions from CRPG version.

Mostly because CRPG version changes things radically, and not always for better. I mean, most of it is cutting content, like centaurs, bog striders, Fort Drelev and then changing everything to connect to Nyrissa in more obvious way while making the big bads feel less independent.

{my bold}

This was most likely 100% in response to customer feedback. One of the (few) major complaints on the boards about Kingmaker was that the BBEG "came out of nowhere" in the last book and wasn't foreshadowed enough in the earlier volumes.

Yeah, but it also makes them all feel like pawns, and two of them are even more sympathetic than the original version. And they changed lot of details in general for different reasons, like because they can't have war mechanics, there isn't really straight up "war" war in War of the Kings.

Okay, usually i'm more a lurker than a poster, but this is a good time to make an exception.

First things first: thanks to all the paizo staff to make this happening. I love the fact that kingmaker will become a 2nd AP and,IMHO, it's a good thing that there will be not a 1st edition option. Let me explain: the second edition will be new supported product. No mass erase of 1st editions products but, create a second standard will expand the time needed for a smooth transaction between the two editions. there are players that will not support the product if there will be not an option for 1st edition? shame, but the world will go ahead the same so, don't nitpick the developers.

in the meaning, the 5th edition bestiary it's such a good idea.
in this manner, the 5th edition players will taste the awesomness of the Paizo AP and, slowly will migrate(at least, a part of them) in the new edition. Good catch paizo!

ok p.s. sorry if my english it's so and so, but i'm not a native speaker.
p.p.s.
GO GO GO SECOND EDITION!

I think that there is a non-trivial group of people who are like me - if you make a 1e AP compliation (like rise and curse of the crimson throne) we will buy it. Even if we bought the soft-cover already. No extra art or toys needed. But if it's 2e only we won't.

Love you for doing it piazo, just be aware that you've got a die-hard 1e fan base. We want to throw money at you.