Help Paizo Celebrate Kingmaker's 10th Anniversary!

Thursday, May 2, 2019

It's been an amazing year for Kingmaker, which made its digital debut in Owlcat Games' CRPG adaptation last fall. Many of you have been playing through the incredible story and experiencing first-hand the expanded storylines, companion interactions, and kingdom-building that the game has brought to life.

The Kingmaker Adventure Path debuted 10 years ago, and the softcover adventures that make up the epic campaign have long been out of print. We've wanted to return to the Stolen Lands in a complete Adventure Path hardcover collection, as we did for Rise of the Runelords and Curse of the Crimson Throne, but the question was always one of scope and timing. On the eve of Kingmaker's tenth anniversary next year, the timing answer seemed obvious, but we still don't know how much additional content to add, especially in the wake of the computer game's expansive release.

How much new and updated content is the right amount? We'll let you decide!

Paizo is partnering with our friends at Game On Tabletop to launch the Kingmaker Adventure Path for Pathfinder Second Edition. We'll start with a hardcover Kingmaker compilation, and you'll tell us how much more you want to see. The companions from the computer game were also a big hit, so we'll be adding a Companion Guide to introduce them to the tabletop campaign, complete with NPC stats, sidequest encounters, and expanded kingdom-management roles. Finally, we'll add a hardcover Kingmaker Bestiary for 5E, developed in conjunction with industry leaders in third-party 5E publishing, allowing players of the current edition of the world's oldest RPG the chance to experience the rich and detailed storylines that have made the Kingmaker Adventure Path a fan favorite for a decade. More add-ons and unlocks will be revealed as the campaign progresses.

You'll be able to see all the details on Tuesday, May 7 at noon Pacific time at KingmakerCampaign.com. The campaign will run through midnight on May 21. Until then, tell your friends that the Kingmaker Adventure Path is coming to Game on Tabletop next week, and next year to your gaming table!

Want to talk more about Kingmaker? Join us Friday on Twitch at 4:00 PM Pacific time as Creative Director James Jacobs speaks about the history and story of the Kingmaker Adventure Path.

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Jason Nelson wrote:
Leg o' Lamb wrote:
Matrix Sorcica wrote:
They could just talk to Frog God Games, a much smaller company, who regulary has run and fulfilled Kickstarters for three different systems, including PF1 and 5E.
I don't think that will happen any time soon.

I certainly don't presume to speak for Paizo and their business philosophy and project plans, but I can speak as the owner of a company that has done multiple multi-system Kickstarters. It's both more complicated than it might seem from the outside to produce them (including in terms of making sure there is no "edition leakage" between products, and the style and format of how text is written - some text can stay the same but a fair amount needs to be revised - and the different page counts - our Pirate Campaign Compendium is 500 pages for Pathfinder and 448 for 5E), but also the different scales of production of a small publishing company vs. a larger one mean that there's a very different calculus involved in whether a product is going to be profitable or not.

Legendary Games can afford to make niche-of-a-niche products and can be flexible with how we produce things to meet the specific product demands. We don't have a minimum target to meet in order to produce a thing, and we can flex to make the means of production fit the demand. Smaller companies have an advantage of nimbleness in production choices and production schedule.

A larger company has both a lot more institutional overhead and different demands as far as their supply and delivery chain. I can't speculate on Paizo's numbers, but the gamble involved is substantial on an untested concept: will 5E players want to buy into a PF campaign?

Maybe their minimum order from their printer partner is 10,000 books (just to pull a number out of a hat - I have no idea). If they sell great, great. If it turns out 5E players aren't interested in an $80 Pathfinder book and they only sell 1,000, they don't want to sit with a giant pile of dead inventory in their warehouse. A 576...

Thank you for your understandable and realistic explanations. You always make the company sound like a living breathing entity that has a say in what is going on around it, as opposed to a hierarchical organization that only needs to make a flat statement justifying its need to make money.


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Cori Marie wrote:
5E is getting the same thing as PF1. A bestiary addition to the main book.
Jeff Alvarez wrote:
Correct, both 1E and 5E will be getting similar treatments.

My mistake, thank you both for clarifying.

Jeff Alvarez wrote:


Hey Hobbun, The updates I was referring to would be Game On crowdfunding updates for backers and those are typically like blogs that explain how the process is going and how the books are working out. Not actual content but updates as to what content is making it into the books...that kind of thing. Hope that makes more sense.
thejeff wrote:

Would it be reasonable to distribute the original PDFs with the new version?

It's essentially cost-free and I can't imagine there'd be a lot of lost sales - not many people are going to be interested in buying the old version and the new one.

Doesn't get you updated new content, but it's a big part of what you'd want.

The original Kingmaker PDFs as a free download would certainly be a great gesture and appreciated, and definitely better than what I would have now. However, if there is quite a bit more additional content, like especially with the recent unlock of taking the AP to 20th level, I would hate to 'not' see that as converted for 1e, as well. Even if it's only a PDF.

And I say this respectfully, but is the reason that an AP 1e book is not being printed because you don't feel there would be enough sales to justify the additional costs, or is it mainly because you (Paizo) wants to let us know that you are done with 1e now, it is in the rearview mirror, and want to send the message to not expect anything else.

With new content I would completely understand and agree with that, but I just don't understand why compilations of older APs (like this one) or book series' cannot be given the 1e treatment. We aren't talking about a long dead edition here, you have a huge following. There is a LOT here that I am quite certain would continue to buy 1e hardcover compilations.

I don't know, maybe I am completely wrong. You have the sales numbers. But I know myself and my friends would certainly continue to buy your 1e product (compilations). And there are many on this thread that have stated they still have their support for 1e, as well. So please don't shut the door on 1e completely, at least in regards to products like this one.

Paizo Employee Chief Operations Officer

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Hobbun wrote:
Cori Marie wrote:
5E is getting the same thing as PF1. A bestiary addition to the main book.
Jeff Alvarez wrote:
Correct, both 1E and 5E will be getting similar treatments.

My mistake, thank you both for clarifying.

Jeff Alvarez wrote:


Hey Hobbun, The updates I was referring to would be Game On crowdfunding updates for backers and those are typically like blogs that explain how the process is going and how the books are working out. Not actual content but updates as to what content is making it into the books...that kind of thing. Hope that makes more sense.
thejeff wrote:

Would it be reasonable to distribute the original PDFs with the new version?

It's essentially cost-free and I can't imagine there'd be a lot of lost sales - not many people are going to be interested in buying the old version and the new one.

Doesn't get you updated new content, but it's a big part of what you'd want.

The original Kingmaker PDFs as a free download would certainly be a great gesture and appreciated, and definitely better than what I would have now. However, if there is quite a bit more additional content, like especially with the recent unlock of taking the AP to 20th level, I would hate to 'not' see that as converted for 1e, as well. Even if it's only a PDF.

And I say this respectfully, but is the reason that an AP 1e book is not being printed because you don't feel there would be enough sales to justify the additional costs, or is it mainly because you (Paizo) wants to let us know that you are done with 1e now, it is in the rearview mirror, and want to send the message to not expect anything else.

With new content I would completely understand and agree with that, but I just don't understand why compilations of older APs (like this one) or book series' cannot be given the 1e treatment. We aren't talking about a long dead edition here, you have a huge following. There is a LOT here that I am quite certain would continue to buy 1e hardcover...

Hey Hobbun, I appreciate your thoughtful responses. I can't completely comment on what we might do in the future because we aren't there yet and in some cases we haven't decided what our plans might be. I can say that we do listen to all the voices and then make our decisions.


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
Inkdale wrote:

only one question, why did you not tried directly kickstarter? i think

the project would have had much more resonance in that case. Kickstarter is more spread that game on tabletop and at this point maybe the total percentage would be three times the odiern one.

They answered that in their FAQ, basically a) they planned to use Game On as the post-campaign pledge manager anyways, and b) they've worked with them in the past.

Personally I greatly prefer KS -- Game On feels like KS did ~4-5 years ago. Missing a lot of QoL improvements -- auto-refreshing totals, threaded comments. Quicker/easier pledge updating. Better url/linking support, (sounds like Game On also has screen reader issues). Not to mention the network effect you also mention.

The one thing I think Game On does offers that's different is since it collects funds/allocations immediately, there's the potential for Paizo to have a better grasp of what add-ons are selling and which aren't in case that matters for planning future stretch goals. And I can see that being a big draw to the campaign runners, even if the site as a whole is a downgrade for backers in terms of user experience.

Paizo Employee Chief Operations Officer

NielsenE wrote:
Inkdale wrote:

only one question, why did you not tried directly kickstarter? i think

the project would have had much more resonance in that case. Kickstarter is more spread that game on tabletop and at this point maybe the total percentage would be three times the odiern one.

They answered that in their FAQ, basically a) they planned to use Game On as the post-campaign pledge manager anyways, and b) they've worked with them in the past.

Personally I greatly prefer KS -- Game On feels like KS did ~4-5 years ago. Missing a lot of QoL improvements -- auto-refreshing totals, threaded comments. Quicker/easier pledge updating. Better url/linking support, (sounds like Game On also has screen reader issues). Not to mention the network effect you also mention.

The one thing I think Game On does offers that's different is since it collects funds/allocations immediately, there's the potential for Paizo to have a better grasp of what add-ons are selling and which aren't in case that matters for planning future stretch goals. And I can see that being a big draw to the campaign runners, even if the site as a whole is a downgrade for backers in terms of user experience.

Game On's back end is also far superior to that of Kickstarters and that was a big part of why we chose their platform. That and we believe that there's room for a more gaming-centric crowdfunding platform for our market. A platform that caters to the gaming audience in ways that KS never will.

Sovereign Court

Might also have something to do with the times they've burned KS projects (MMO, miniatures with Ninja Division... you can only fail to deliver so many times).

Paizo Employee Chief Operations Officer

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Jesse Heinig wrote:
Might also have something to do with the times they've burned KS projects (MMO, miniatures with Ninja Division... you can only fail to deliver so many times).

It has absolutely nothing to do with that and Paizo was never the company running those campaigns. The MMO was run by GoblinWorks and the SF one was run by Ninja Division. It is easy to understand the confusion around those but if you look at the name of the company that is listed as running those, neither will say Paizo.

Sovereign Court

... yet somehow Paizo employees were roped into writing content to generate additional money for the MMO, and Ninja Division had already failed to deliver multiple KS projects but Paizo decided to pair with them anyway.

Just sayin', that's not a good track record.

Also, it's a little weird that a company whose business model has historically been "we publish game books by using the money from our sales to finance development of new books, which we then publish" has now decided to turn to the Onyx Path model of "we fund this book by generating enthusiasm for a Kickstarter-like project." Trial balloon? Shift in strategy? Attempt to generate explosive revenue via stretch goals or fanbase to approach something like Matt Colville's Strongholds KS?

It's a little weird.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path Subscriber
Jeff Alvarez wrote:
Game On's back end is also far superior to that of Kickstarters and that was a big part of why we chose their platform. That and we believe that there's room for a more gaming-centric crowdfunding platform for our market. A platform that caters to the gaming audience in ways that KS never will.

That's fine, and I hope it works for you. But from the consumer end, it may be useful for you to know that some people are really, really, really tired of market fragmentation.

The obvious example is streaming video. I've got a Netflix account. That's it. Disney pulls their content, thinking I'm going to subscribe to yet another provider? They lose all income from me. The corporate world has demonstrated that it cannot be trusted with personal information, including banking information. The best way for a consumer to protect themselves is to minimize the attack surface. If I have a hundred sites with my payment information, I'm a hundred times more vulnerable than if I only had one such site.

I created a GO account reluctantly, and only because I feel it's important to put my money where my mouth is. I asked for PF1 support, as a reasonable transition product. I got it. To NOT buy that is... self-defeating, misleading to Paizo, and sort of fraudulent. To wait until the product is available in retail doesn't send the up-front message of "I meant what I said", which is important to me. But make no bones: if PF2 had never happened and this was merely a PF1 product, I absolutely, positively would never have backed it on GO, even if it meant paying more via retail.

I'm not unique. Maybe I'm part of a small percentage of consumers, but we're not negligible. I read this sort of discussion other places as well.

I won't be buying Borderlands 3 at release day because it's not available on Steam, my CDN of choice. I am totally aware that there are serious fiscal differences on the table between Steam and Epic as far as Gearbox is concerned, but... too bad. A worse experience for the consumer isn't acceptable to claw back 12%. Raise the price on Steam to compensate and offer me the choice where to shop.

Shrug.

This isn't meant to castigate or complain about the decision that's been made, just to hopefully provide some illumination about a real-world consideration that may impact the success of a campaign that doesn't use the "industry-standard" crowdfunding site. Crowdfunding = solved problem, even if there are back-end improvements to be desired by you.


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber
Jesse Heinig wrote:

Also, it's a little weird that a company whose business model has historically been "we publish game books by using the money from our sales to finance development of new books, which we then publish" has now decided to turn to the Onyx Path model of "we fund this book by generating enthusiasm for a Kickstarter-like project." Trial balloon? Shift in strategy? Attempt to generate explosive revenue via stretch goals or fanbase to approach something like Matt Colville's Strongholds KS?

It's a little weird.

I don’t find it weird - this is different from the usual books they do. I’d find it weird if the began crowdfunding their APs or Core Rulebooks.

If Paizo funded this project in their usual way, they’d have to make all the decisions in the dark (without knowing how things would sell). As such, we’d end up with a compilation more limited in scope - like the Curse of the Crimson Throne compilation. With no idea of the market for addons and expansions, they’d have been more conservative and we’d have got less in the way of options/content.

There’s some risks and hassles with crowdfunding, but an undeniable benefit is the producer can be far more experimental and expansive in their offerings. There have been many calls for Paizo to crowdfund projects like this over the years. I’m really glad to see them testing the waters in this way.


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Anguish wrote:
Jeff Alvarez wrote:
Game On's back end is also far superior to that of Kickstarters and that was a big part of why we chose their platform. That and we believe that there's room for a more gaming-centric crowdfunding platform for our market. A platform that caters to the gaming audience in ways that KS never will.

That's fine, and I hope it works for you. But from the consumer end, it may be useful for you to know that some people are really, really, really tired of market fragmentation.

The obvious example is streaming video. I've got a Netflix account. That's it. Disney pulls their content, thinking I'm going to subscribe to yet another provider? They lose all income from me. The corporate world has demonstrated that it cannot be trusted with personal information, including banking information. The best way for a consumer to protect themselves is to minimize the attack surface. If I have a hundred sites with my payment information, I'm a hundred times more vulnerable than if I only had one such site.

I created a GO account reluctantly, and only because I feel it's important to put my money where my mouth is. I asked for PF1 support, as a reasonable transition product. I got it. To NOT buy that is... self-defeating, misleading to Paizo, and sort of fraudulent. To wait until the product is available in retail doesn't send the up-front message of "I meant what I said", which is important to me. But make no bones: if PF2 had never happened and this was merely a PF1 product, I absolutely, positively would never have backed it on GO, even if it meant paying more via retail.

I'm not unique. Maybe I'm part of a small percentage of consumers, but we're not negligible. I read this sort of discussion other places as well.

I won't be buying Borderlands 3 at release day because it's not available on Steam, my CDN of choice. I am totally aware that there are serious fiscal differences on the table between Steam and Epic as far as Gearbox is concerned,...

While I share your frustrations with streaming video, that's because those are subscription models. To see everything I want to see, I'd have to maintain multiple subscriptions. Market fragmentation there actually costs me more.

This? This is like going to one retail store for a purchase rather than another. Makes no difference to me.

Credit card information is already in enough places. I just can't see one more as being a significant threat.


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Steve Geddes wrote:
If Paizo funded this project in their usual way, they’d have to make all the decisions in the dark (without knowing how things would sell). As such, we’d end up with a compilation more limited in scope - like the Curse of the Crimson Throne compilation. With no idea of the market for addons and expansions, they’d have been more conservative and we’d have got less in the way of options/content.

I agree with you, but there's also the fact that if some of the stretch goals aren't reached people will be disappointed.

For example, if the "Barony" expansion isn't reached people will be frustrated that Paizo had more ways to customize the game in mind but those customizations won't be released because not enough money was thrown at the pre-order campaign.

I prefer to have the thought "Aw, too bad they didn't do this thing I wanted" instead of "it's too bad that they didn't get enough money so they aren't going to do this thing I wanted."


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Pathfinder Adventure, Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Rulebook, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

I guess we all have different approaches there.

For me, I'm very glad im getting a campaign to level 20 and will be disappointed if we dont get to the map sets. I wouldnt want to give up on both just so i never knew about the latter.

If paizo had to take the plunge sight unseen, itd be a much reduced book. The fact I have to gaze wistfully at what might've been is an acceptable price to pay for all the extra content and goodies.

I appreciate its not for everyone though. Luckily, most thing paizo make arent crowdfunded - so 99% of the time we dont see what we're missing out on.


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Fair point.
(That being said, I signed up as soon as I had the chance even though I have the original books and don't plan on running Kingmaker again but I wanted to own the updated collection because I love Kingmaker.)

And yeah, I'm happy if it gets to level 20 and the map folio, but I have no idea what other plans they have for stretch goals. Some might really appeal to me, we'll have to see.


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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Looks like some stretch goals were slightly shuffled/moved up. Definitely looks better from a keep momentum/incremental progress aspect. And cool bonus with the kingdom building rules GM screen bonus, plus the # of bacerks stretch goal for bonus (old) pdfs.

Dark Archive

Isn't this the fourth paizo related crowdfunding campaign? Kinda feels odd to talk about the two which didn't deliver

Silver Crusade

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CorvusMask wrote:
Isn't this the fourth paizo related crowdfunding campaign? Kinda feels odd to talk about the two which didn't deliver

The dice were delivered, the Kingdom Death minis are on track, and the statue is on track to my knowledge (I got my comic PDFs).

For Goblinworks side of the mmo oof, but from Paizo we got the Emerald Spire and Thronkeep books.

Paizo is still working with Ninja Division to get people the minis they’re owed.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Also there’s the fact that the hardcover collections of the APs didn’t sell well enough (the same fate as art books), which makes me sad.

Taking this approach they can better accommodate their production with people actually purchasing it, as opposed to a chorus of “I’d totally buy it!” and then on release... nada.

Paizo Employee Franchise Manager

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Warped Savant wrote:


For example, if the "Barony" expansion isn't reached people will be frustrated that Paizo had more ways to customize the game in mind but those customizations won't be released because not enough money was thrown at the pre-order campaign.

We haven't designed any new ways to customize the game, because we don't yet know how many different ways we're going to have the room to include in the final book. If we end up with a larger page count and more promised kingdom content, then we'll design to those parameters. If the book is smaller, we'll design to those limitations. That's why we're doing this campaign so far out ahead of the 2020 release date. We need to know how big the book is going to be and what's going to be in it before we start converting/designing/writing that content.

Silver Crusade

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Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Word count and gravity, no crueler mistresses shall ye meet.

Dark Archive

Rysky wrote:

Also there’s the fact that the hardcover collections of the APs didn’t sell well enough (the same fate as art books), which makes me sad.

Taking this approach they can better accommodate their production with people actually purchasing it, as opposed to a chorus of “I’d totally buy it!” and then on release... nada.

While you are totally right about your last point, the Crimson Throne hardcover sold out fast.

We don't know how many of the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition hardcover are left in stock (half a year ago it was over 500), but if sales would have been bad, they wouldn't have done a second one.

I agree that a crowdfunding is the best way to see how big the demand really is and hope that Paizo will one day do the same for another AP.

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
Marco Massoudi wrote:
Rysky wrote:

Also there’s the fact that the hardcover collections of the APs didn’t sell well enough (the same fate as art books), which makes me sad.

Taking this approach they can better accommodate their production with people actually purchasing it, as opposed to a chorus of “I’d totally buy it!” and then on release... nada.

While you are totally right about your last point, the Crimson Throne hardcover sold out fast.

We don't know how many of the Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition hardcover are left in stock (half a year ago it was over 500), but if sales would have been bad, they wouldn't have done a second one.

I agree that a crowdfunding is the best way to see how big the demand really is and hope that Paizo will one day do the same for another AP.

2 years is not fast, especially if they did a lower print run than Rise.

And they would have done a second one if they believe it would have sold better, cause both of these were passion projects. The fact that they didn't sell well enough due to the the amount of resources involved is a serious dampener. Note that I keep specifying well enough, they were successes. They just weren't phenomenal successes.

Dark Archive

The companion guide has increased to 48 pages!

The next step is to increase the "campaign book" to include content up to level 20!
The original campaign goes up to level 17.

Dark Archive

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Having a map of the "Stolen Lands" on the side facing the players on the "Kingdom management screen" for the Gamemaster is pure genius!
Thanks @ Mark Moreland for that great idea!


Jason Nelson wrote:


A larger company has both a lot more institutional overhead and different demands as far as their supply and delivery chain. I can't speculate on Paizo's numbers, but the gamble involved is substantial on an untested concept: will 5E players want to buy into a PF campaign?

That's what Kickstarters are for, is it not?

Jason Nelson wrote:


If it turns out 5E players aren't interested in an $80 Pathfinder book and they only sell 1,000, they don't want to sit with a giant pile of dead inventory in their warehouse.

5E players are asked to buy a $115 book, remember? If they really wanted to test the waters, they should make a full 5E version either its own KS or a stretch goal. What they will get now for the chosen set up (5E players have a considerable higher buy in price) will only be partial data, imo.

Dark Archive

Rysky wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
Isn't this the fourth paizo related crowdfunding campaign? Kinda feels odd to talk about the two which didn't deliver

The dice were delivered, the Kingdom Death minis are on track, and the statue is on track to my knowledge (I got my comic PDFs).

For Goblinworks side of the mmo oof, but from Paizo we got the Emerald Spire and Thronkeep books.

Paizo is still working with Ninja Division to get people the minis they’re owed.

What dice? And I was talking about Pathfinder MMO, Ninja Division minis, Kingmaker CRPG and this. Kingdom Death thing was just more of crossover bonus than Paizo product and I'm not sure what the dice one is


Paizo Charter Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Marco Massoudi wrote:

Having a map of the "Stolen Lands" on the side facing the players on the "Kingdom management screen" for the Gamemaster is pure genius!

Thanks @ Mark Moreland for that great idea!

I don't know, aren't they supposed to explore the area, i.e. NOtT know what it looks like right from the start?

Dark Archive

Anyhoo, if there are even more Paizo crowdfunded projects, then it feels even weirder to talk as if Paizo products had crowdfunding duds all the time if it was just two of 5+ ones

Silver Crusade

Pathfinder Companion, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber
CorvusMask wrote:
Rysky wrote:
CorvusMask wrote:
Isn't this the fourth paizo related crowdfunding campaign? Kinda feels odd to talk about the two which didn't deliver

The dice were delivered, the Kingdom Death minis are on track, and the statue is on track to my knowledge (I got my comic PDFs).

For Goblinworks side of the mmo oof, but from Paizo we got the Emerald Spire and Thronkeep books.

Paizo is still working with Ninja Division to get people the minis they’re owed.

What dice? And I was talking about Pathfinder MMO, Ninja Division minis, Kingmaker CRPG and this. Kingdom Death thing was just more of crossover bonus than Paizo product and I'm not sure what the dice one is

There was a Pazio/Q-Workshop KS for Pathfinder metal dice, they're really nice.

We also got goblin dice and a dice tower from it (they dice tower they threw in even though we were shy of the stretch goal).


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Will the Kindgom Management rules be the same through all three editions (1st, 2nd and 5th)? Without having to convert?

Or is the Kingdom Management screen only going to be useful for 2nd edition?

Dark Archive

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Kingdom management in 1e at least was basically separate system from character rules with only interaction being able to withdraw or invest gp and stat modifiers. So presumably same would apply to the updated version at least


Pathfinder Battles Case Subscriber

Ok, thanks.

Hopefully what you say is the case, but I would think there would be some sort of rules dependency with the use of a screen. Although I hope that isn't the case.


Pathfinder Companion, Maps Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Zaister wrote:
Marco Massoudi wrote:

Having a map of the "Stolen Lands" on the side facing the players on the "Kingdom management screen" for the Gamemaster is pure genius!

Thanks @ Mark Moreland for that great idea!
I don't know, aren't they supposed to explore the area, i.e. NOtT know what it looks like right from the start?

That depends on how detailed the map is in regard to the unexplored region.


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Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

The kingdom rules are fairly system agnostic, things to look at:

a) On top of the bonuses you get from your buildings, you do add the PCs relevant attribute modifier to some checks. However, very quickly the bonuses due to kingdom improvements/buildings dominates the contributions of the PC ability mod. In the first 1-2 years of kingdom building it will make a larger effect if the systems diverge much -- however that's still in the level 8ish range, so ability won't vary that much between 1e/2e/5e.

b) BPs are already fairly abstracted, but the BP<->GP conversion rate will need to be addressed (but that's about a one-liner.

c) The biggest interactions are in buildings within a city -- those are tied to PF city stats (base purchasing price of items, etc) along with the magic item rules (which I hope are getting reworked anyways)

(Basically things that operate at a kingdom level should transfer between rule systems easily, things that operate a city level lean on pre-existing PF systems that I don't know how easy/hard they'll be in 2e or 5e)


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber
David knott 242 wrote:
Zaister wrote:
Marco Massoudi wrote:

Having a map of the "Stolen Lands" on the side facing the players on the "Kingdom management screen" for the Gamemaster is pure genius!

Thanks @ Mark Moreland for that great idea!
I don't know, aren't they supposed to explore the area, i.e. NOtT know what it looks like right from the start?

That depends on how detailed the map is in regard to the unexplored region.

I just finished running the 1e AP. I started off with giving the PCs a blank hex map with the road to Oleg's and Oleg's trading post on it, along with the outline of the forest for the closest couple of hexes. Also the (non-forest) rivers and lake. Even with that the amount of time it took trying to explain the terrain in the hex they explored and what types of terrain they saw around them was cumbersome and didn't flow well.

We I switched to given them the folio hex maps (which are full color terrain, but no details) things moved much faster -- and there was very little meta-gaming. Its still a lot of 'we're exploring, we don't have an objective" mixed with "we heard something is near X, lets head that way" X was always a well known visible landmark, so that worked for me.

I like the idea of the map being on the player side of the screen. I think it might be a little better if the four outermost corners are a little fog covered to still give the impression of exploration, while also hiding some of the mid/late game points of interest

Liberty's Edge

Pathfinder Companion Subscriber

I hate to sound ingrateful after you went out of your way to provide 1e support, but I have to say I'm not sure I can justify the outlay. Right now, just getting the base books (AP+Companion+1e+shipping) runs up a tab of 177.25. That's about three times what I paid for the Runelords and Crimson Throne hardcovers, and those were much more user-friendly as they did not require you to filter out material for 2e and to flip between multiple books. I would love to be a part of this anniversary, but nearly $180 to start is maybe too much for me. Good luck though.


@Jeff: ok I nearly bought everything here... negotiations with the wife were required... when does this good stuff ships again?

Paizo Employee Chief Operations Officer

GM PDK wrote:
@Jeff: ok I nearly bought everything here... negotiations with the wife were required... when does this good stuff ships again?

Hey GM PDK, We don't have a firm date yet but we are looking at late 2020 right now. I know that seems like a loooog way off but this is a ton of work on top of our regular productions schedules and we want to be sure these are done the right way.


NielsenE wrote:
David knott 242 wrote:
Zaister wrote:
I don't know, aren't they supposed to explore the area, i.e. NOtT know what it looks like right from the start?

That depends on how detailed the map is in regard to the unexplored region.

...n the hex they explored and what types of terrain they saw around them was cumbersome and didn't flow well.

We I switched to given them the folio hex maps (which are full color terrain, but no details) things moved much faster -- and there was very little meta-gaming. Its still a lot of 'we're exploring, we don't have an objective" mixed with "we heard something is near X, lets head that way" X was always a well known visible landmark, so that worked for me.

Honestly that sounds perfectly reasonable, this isn't some unexplored continent the PCs are first to step foot on. Knowledge of large scale features like rivers, mountains, major forests vs plains is not a stretch to have, and paths and roads thru the area do already exist and are reasonable to already be mapped. That doesn't really give any spoilers about things relevant to PCs for the most part, and seems more fulfilling approach than "lurching around random blank hexes".


Paizo Superscriber; Pathfinder Companion, Pathfinder Accessories Subscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Exactly. If I were running chapter one of a different AP that has a hexpoloration flavor, in an unknown/unprepared for arrival setting, (avoiding the name for spoilers), then I'd stick with the blank map approach. But when I run Kingmaker again (and I definitely plan to run it again), I'll just start with the folios from day 1.

Paizo Employee Chief Technical Officer

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Rysky wrote:
Also there’s the fact that the hardcover collections of the APs didn’t sell well enough (the same fate as art books), which makes me sad.

Both of the AP compilations have sold very well. The Curse hardcover sold out, and we are down to the last copies of the second printing of Rise of the Runelords. If we weren't moving on from P1, we would likely reprint them both.

The reason we don't do AP compilations very often has nothing to do with how well they sell, but as I first said way back in 2009:

Vic Wertz wrote:
The number one problem with collected APs is that our cash flow relies on constant sales of the current AP volume, and anything that we do that potentially reduces sales of the current volume is harmful to us. Not only would collecting them train some people to wait for the compilations, but it would also be creating a product that competes with the current AP for the attention of new customers. Either one of those is bad enough; taken together, the whole issue becomes a non-starter.

(Also, they are a *huge* amount of work.)

So regardless of how well they sell, we only do them in special circumstances, when we know we can do it in a way that is as appealing as a completely new product is, and at a pace that doesn't train people to always wait for the compilations.


Andostre wrote:


...all of which I support! But if you're looking to make room for all of that additional content, may I suggest removing content that doesn't directly support the story? Many of the hex encounters and Wanted Posters quests were just XP fillers that can be removed now that the AP has so much more quality content that can be added. Things like the trapdoor spider from book 1 and the roc-eggs-for-a-chef sidequest were unmemorable and could be replaced with the quality fan-content that has been suggested in the years since.

Please don't do this. The sandboxy sidequests that do not tie on to the main plot are among the things that make Kingmaker Kingmaker in a good way.

All of Paizo's APs have a solid main story. Not so many of them are focused as much as Kingmaker on that shape of giving you a slice of world.


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I think if this would've been a KS project instead of gameontabletop it would've had alot more interest and generated better advertising for Paizo as a whole on that platform especially with the branching out into 5E.

It looks like we will be lucky to hit 300K at the end of it and I would think on KS this would've easily been a million dollar project.

Either way I'm looking forward to this project and am sure it will be top notch just think Paizo could've done better franchise wise to go with KS.

Dark Archive

ograx wrote:

I think if this would've been a KS project instead of gameontabletop it would've had alot more interest and generated better advertising for Paizo as a whole on that platform especially with the branching out into 5E.

It looks like we will be lucky to hit 300K at the end of it and I would think on KS this would've easily been a million dollar project.

Either way I'm looking forward to this project and am sure it will be top notch just think Paizo could've done better franchise wise to go with KS.

I agree 100%.

Paizo Employee Customer Service & Community Manager

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Since there's a lot of the same discussion/questions happening in both Kingmaker blog threads and they are both very active, I think it makes the most sense to close one and refer y'all to the other thread. Unfortunately since they are blog discussion threads, I cannot merge the comments.

Let's focus the Kingmaker campaign comments over on this thread: Paizo Blog: Kingmaker 10th Anniversary Campaign Begins!

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