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Another perspective on how many replays are needed per year:
I only play as PbP. If I assume I play an average of 8 games at a time (across all campaigns), and each game takes 8 weeks, then that means that I play about 48 games a year. For me, a minimum of half of them will need to be PFS1, so that's 24 PFS1 games a year. (I would actually prefer a higher percentage be PFS 1, but that's the minimum for a satisfying play experience). This would mean that I calculate 25 replays a year in perpetuity being what I need to keep playing in a way I enjoy.

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Forty-eight games a year is equivalent to a weekly game night at a store -- that sounds fair -- but I'm trying to calculate why we need 25 replays to support 24 PFS1 games? Couldn't some of your games come from your unplayed backlog? Or from APs and modules and such?
This is assuming that you have an unplayed backlog. I know multiple players in Minnesota who are nearly complete, and can only come in now when we offer new content. I realize that for those players, the 12 a year limit means they only can join us once a month. Still, I am worried that too much replay is as problematic here as too little. I don't want to have lousy tables as a GM where NONE of my players are surprised by the storyline. I got sick of that in the Confirmation, and gave up on that game because of that.
Where does the balance point lie? 6 seems too little. 24 seems too much. But I realize that I am grasping at straws and making guesses. We likely won't know until 2020 what the right balance was.
I'm also hoping that the first PF2 adventures are engaging enough that they can take up some of those gaming slots. We're also starting to get more and more Starfinder adventures too.
Part of what is making us all so nervous is the uncertainty looming with PF2. Still, the design team has been steadily fixing the roughest edges of the Playtest, and our adventure writing team is top-notch. We have John and Linda and Michael all scheming to create new PF2 content for us. I'm really hoping that we won't need more than 12 PF1 games a year to keep going because we'll be swept into an awesome new storyline in Season 11.
Hmm

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Forty-eight games a year is equivalent to a weekly game night at a store -- that sounds fair -- but I'm trying to calculate why we need 25 replays to support 24 PFS1 games? Couldn't some of your games come from your unplayed backlog? Or from APs and modules and such?
(This is assuming that you have an unplayed backlog. I know multiple players in Minnesota who are nearly complete, and can only come in now when we offer new content. I realize that for those players, the 12 a year limit means they only can join us once a month.)
I'm also hoping that the first PF2 adventures are engaging enough that they can take up some of those gaming slots. We're also starting to get more and more Starfinder adventures too.
Hmm
Even if there was a backlog, that won't last forever. "In perpetuity" was used - this is the long-term view. Some smaller number might work for a year or two, then suddenly become useless.

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My concern isn't just for next year, it's for making sure I can still play PFS1 in a decade, when I have no backlog left. I don't think it's likely campaign leadership will loosen up replay further in a few years, so I need replay set somewhere that I can still play 10 or 20 years from now.
And yes, I'm planning on some Starfinder, that's why I said only half of that gaming needed to be PFS1. Maybe a few adventures will even end up being PFS2. However, both Starfinder and PFS2 are far too low magic to be satisfying if less than half of my gaming bandwidth is PFS1.

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I shouldn't edit after posting -- you folks have responded to the original version of my post! You're like lightning!
I also realize that my viewpoint is more transition than perpetuity-oriented. I loved the adventures of PF1, and still want to continue being able to play some of them, but really... I see the whole world of Organized Play moving on in the next 2-3 years.
Online will likely be the last bastion of retro-PF1 play two-three years from now, unless some areas specifically have a 'Retro' night devoted to PF1 adventures. Still, there's only so many systems most of us can run at one time. If it succeeds, PF2 will be the new normal for Organized Play.
Hmm

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That's where the difference lies, then. I plan that in 40 years, it's a Pathfinder 1 game that someone is going to be rolling my wheelchair up to. Or maybe Pathfinder 3, if that returns much more to its roots than PF2 is going to be.
To me, Pathfinder 1, although not perfect, has reached a level of quality to joing Chess, Checkers, Parcheesi, Clue, and Risk as a game that will be played still in centuries, not just in decades.
Do classics make as much money as the new hot thing? No, but there is a steadiness there.

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I honestly feel like in 2-3 years we might either be seeing Pathfinder 3.0, or the death of Paizo as a company. Based on what I have seen voiced here on the forums, over on reddit, facebook, in person, etc. A large portion of the PF1 community is vastly dissatisfied with PF2. Nothing about it is groundbreaking enough to steal a meaningful share of the market away from D&D5E, and they are going likely to lose a lot of loyal PF1 customers.
If I am wrong...great...I'll either play PF1 home games, or move on to a different system.

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I honestly feel like in 2-3 years we might either be seeing Pathfinder 3.0, or the death of Paizo as a company. Based on what I have seen voiced here on the forums, over on reddit, facebook, in person, etc. A large portion of the PF1 community is vastly dissatisfied with PF2. Nothing about it is groundbreaking enough to steal a meaningful share of the market away from D&D5E, and they are going likely to lose a lot of loyal PF1 customers.
If I am wrong...great...I'll either play PF1 home games, or move on to a different system.
I'll be honest, I am a little worried about PF2 going the way of 4th. :-/ I am hoping that they can keep enough PFS1 players in PFS2 to help build PF2 into something great, cause lets be honest the likelihood of people leaving 5E (given its current popularity) for PF2 is probably not all that high. Losing even some of your PFS1 base would most definitely not be good, which is why I'm hoping they recognize as much as reasonably possible the commitment their PFS1 base put in when designing PFS2, i.e. Stars, Boons, etc. *cross fingers*

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I honestly feel like in 2-3 years we might either be seeing Pathfinder 3.0, or the death of Paizo as a company. Based on what I have seen voiced here on the forums, over on reddit, facebook, in person, etc. A large portion of the PF1 community is vastly dissatisfied with PF2. Nothing about it is groundbreaking enough to steal a meaningful share of the market away from D&D5E, and they are going likely to lose a lot of loyal PF1 customers.
If I am wrong...great...I'll either play PF1 home games, or move on to a different system.
I feel like that's a little overdramatic. But you are welcome to hold your opinions on PF2.

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Some questions on the mechanics of "Replay" Options being offered...
Say I played scenario #0-01 Silent Tide long ago, and then some years later I burned a GM Star Replay to play it again...
Now we have Option (1, 2 or 3)... can I Replay it AGAIN? Can I replay it again ON THE SAME PC?
And if the answer to the first of those is a "yes", could I then set up to Replay it again?
Do these Replay Options allow multiple Replays of the same scenario? (or for Options 1 and 3, Replays across more than one year?)
not that anyone would ever consider "gaming the system" to get selected scenarios onto all their PCs...

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If we need over a dozen replays, I would like some of those to be handed out to the venture agents that have to organize tables. Sort of like the Glutton for Punishment boon.
Allowing someone to replay in order to make it easier to schedule a table is something I would love. I know this could be abused, but hopefully the venture lieutenants and venture captains would control that.

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If we need over a dozen replays, I would like some of those to be handed out to the venture agents that have to organize tables. Sort of like the Glutton for Punishment boon.
Allowing someone to replay in order to make it easier to schedule a table is something I would love. I know this could be abused, but hopefully the venture lieutenants and venture captains would control that.
not every venue has a venture critter. The system really should be designed to be functional without them.

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Slyme wrote:I feel like that's a little overdramatic. But you are welcome to hold your opinions on PF2.I honestly feel like in 2-3 years we might either be seeing Pathfinder 3.0, or the death of Paizo as a company. Based on what I have seen voiced here on the forums, over on reddit, facebook, in person, etc. A large portion of the PF1 community is vastly dissatisfied with PF2. Nothing about it is groundbreaking enough to steal a meaningful share of the market away from D&D5E, and they are going likely to lose a lot of loyal PF1 customers.
If I am wrong...great...I'll either play PF1 home games, or move on to a different system.
It might be a bit dramatic...it could take 5 years. ;)
I am just speaking from my own personal experience. As someone who has been an avid RPG player since 1979, and someone who works in a game store. I have been around the industry for most of my life. I have watched game companies rise and fall. I have watched amazing games flounder over bad business decisions. I have watched other companies swoop in and save game systems.
Everything I am seeing happen with Paizo and PF1 vs PF2 I have seen before. We shall just have to sit back and see if history repeats itself...again.

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Nosig,
Replaying a scenario on the same PC will never be allowed. Meanwhile, we'll have to see how the final rules shake out. It'll be interesting to see what our Campaign Leadership decides on this matter.
Hmm
"No, if you have played Confirmation on this PC before, you may not play it again with the SAME PC - though you can with a DIFFERENT PC."
I even once had to explain that someone could not replay #8-07 Tome of Righteous Repose with the same PC ... "But last time I played it at LOW tier, this time I'm doing it at HIGH tier".
and ... the rules do (over time) change, so heck, while I figure that replaying a scenario on the same PC (is not currently) allowed, I do not feel comfortable saying "Replaying a scenario on the same PC will never be allowed." The rules covering Replay going to change. Will this one remain unchanged?
Several posters in this thread have expressed the desire (I think) to not bother tracking what scenarios they have Replayed before. Basically, they will track whether they have PLAYED a scenario, and if they have then to Replay they will "burn a replay" from the total allowed.
It would work something like this...
Nosig: "0-01 Silent Tide is the low level game this week? Oh, I've played that before, so I guess I'll need to use one of my Replays - but that's ok, I've got X of them left."
Hmm: "But didn't you Replay Silent Tide last month?"
Nosig: "Yeah, but I like the boon on it, so I actually try to get it on all my starting PCs. That's why I request it to be run so much... ".
So... Is that scenario I described above going to be "legal" with the Options offered? Currently, with the existing Replay rules it is not. We can (currently) only use Replays to Replay a given Scenario once (as a Player or Judge) - though I have had to point this out to more than one person signing up to (re-)play a certain Season 4 scenario more than once (or trying to gain the CR for judging it more than once).
If the existing (single replay per scenario) rule is going to still be valid going forward, then we are actually still limiting the universe of available scenarios right? I mean, I have personally hit this limit more than once now. (one example) I have played and replayed #2-25 You Only Die Twice, so when it was selected to be run at the local venue I needed to say "sorry - I can't even burn a re-play for that one. I've done it twice already". How long until we start hitting this more and more - especially with the expectation that "if there's a conflict, we can just Replay the scenario..."?
Anyway, thanks everyone for your insights! And for those of you in the U.S. "Happy Turkey Day"!

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Everything I am seeing happen with Paizo and PF1 vs PF2 I have seen before.
I have a similar history with RPGs and I don't see the current concern over PF2E as any different than virtually every edition of every RPG I've ever seen. The exception might be DnD5E since 4E was soo universally disliked that they could have done almost anything with 5E and it would have been readily accepted. Otherwise, even DnD has experienced the same vitriol about their newest system going all the way back to when OD&D was "replaced" in the last 70's. I can more easily understand the gripes from the younger or less experienced players who have not gone through this process before, but for those of us who have seen this phenomenon countless times before, there is no reason for all the "grrr."

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will never be allowed
I think everyone should be careful about the word never when it comes to Paizo. Their typical response to questions that finite is "while we are not currently planning on [it], future considerations could change."
For example, I've heard people claim that Paizo promised to "never" release a new edition of their game when PF1E was released, but AFAIK they did not actually say that. I recall quite specifically both Erik Mona and Jason Bulmahn saying on more than one occasion that they simply had no lans for a 2nd edition of the Pathfinder RPG, but they never said never.
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I've seen it stated here on the forums, as well as elsewhere, but the last time I saw this level of pushback on a new edition of a game was D&D4E.
I don't want Paizo to crash and burn...I want them to have a long, successful career. I personally do not like PF2, and have no plans to support it though. I really wanted to like it, I pushed the store I work at to buy the playtest books, but there are too many things about the system that I do not like, most of which are fundamental to the framework Paizo has built the game around. At this point, nothing Paizo can do will make PF2 into a game I will enjoy playing...and that is fine...I don't enjoy playing most of the RPGs available on the market. I really wanted to like Starfinder too...I bought the first copy of the rulebook that came into the store I work at, actively pushed for SFS games in my area...then I got to reading the rules, and was sorely disappointed. I played a grand total of 4 games of SF before I completely lost interest and have not even touched or looked at my book since.
The one thing that does bother me though, it the apparent lack of support for their current product going forward. There has not been any specific thing that has triggered this that I can point to, but to me at least, it feels like Paizo is trying to kill PF1 so they can fully focus on SF and PF2
I have played dozens of game systems in my RPG lifetime, many of them are long dead and forgotten. Some of them are still going strong, without my active support. Some of them changed editions, losing my support, never to regain it. Some companies have gone to the brink, then managed to pull themselves back. Some have died and been consumed by megacorporations.
Only time will tell what happens to Paizo and the world they have created for us.

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For me, it's a more neutral area. PFS1 will not be offered in my area in an organized fashion; we just don't have the players to support multiple systems. I have 'plenty' of scenarios left to play. However, for those communities and sub-communities where players want to stick with the rule they like and/or don't want to shell out more money for a new systems after shelling out hundreds for the old system, which is their right, a decent number of replays each year is going to be necessary.
For us PFS is stalling once a month, because we have to play SFS the 1st & 3rd weeks. (Two weekly tables: PFS/PFS one week, PFS/SFS the other.) If non-SFS (ie PFS only) players say they aren't going to make it on the SFS week, the VO cancels PFS table. Shadowrun has monthly table (at the next nearest venue) because it wasn't pulling a weekly crowd (I am not sure how often it fires).
Most of the SFS players, are out of PFS scenarios they can play so why wouldn't they go to the table the can play? It is indicative of our PFS1 future.
I like option 1 on the replay question, (if you are counting).

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I spent six years getting my Eagle badge.
I completed over 30 merit badges to do it. Attending classes in summer, spending Saturdays working on them. Going out of town for week long ventures to do it.
I spent hours and hours every month doing community service, and days and days most summers.
I starved, froze, and burned. I got dunked in glacier fed waters, tipped out of perfectly good canoes, ate green hamburger, slept in wet sleeping bags and poorly constructed snow caves. I have bled from knife cuts, rope burns, loose screws, chopping wood and had a bullet explode in my campfire.
And I earned my Eagle badge.
And I can't be a scout anymore because I am over 18?
I spent 10 years getting my 3 GM stars and I can't be a +3 re-roller anymore?
uhmmm... OK. I can deal with that. :)
(I mean no offense to those who use their GM stars to replay scenarios and especially not to make light of those who use their stars to run specials!)
Seriously though, I do feel a little more attached to the race boons. Being self-employed makes cons more than a little difficult. Not only does the trip cost money, but that is a week of no-income. I would like the permanent boons like my oread/grippli/leshi to have a little more conversion going forward than just the prize table award. I DO like the prize table/faction card idea for the 'smaller' boons I have (access to a psionic class ability/special mount/prosperity/even my jester cap and arrow-day-whatever-that-was boons.)
I only last summer got my -1 to seeker level & barely played my -8 (his protege) in one game.
I know rebuilds are hard to come by, and I would happily 'expend' my samsaran boon to rebuild -8 into PF2. (samsaran+undine?) see what I did there!

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Slyme wrote:Everything I am seeing happen with Paizo and PF1 vs PF2 I have seen before.I have a similar history with RPGs and I don't see the current concern over PF2E as any different than virtually every edition of every RPG I've ever seen. The exception might be DnD5E since 4E was soo universally disliked that they could have done almost anything with 5E and it would have been readily accepted. Otherwise, even DnD has experienced the same vitriol about their newest system going all the way back to when OD&D was "replaced" in the last 70's. I can more easily understand the gripes from the younger or less experienced players who have not gone through this process before, but for those of us who have seen this phenomenon countless times before, there is no reason for all the "grrr."
What surprises me is that I'm not sure anything has been learned from the past. 3.5 was popular but had issues, so they created 4th which...crashed and burned. PF1 rose out of the ashes of 3.5 and has been doing well. Then 5E came and people flocked to it, partially because it wasn't 4th (I agree there) but also for it's clean simplicity.
Now Paizo is taking a well liked game (ala 3.5) and creating one in what, 1 year? I want to say that 5E took waaay longer than 1 year to "perfect". Why is Paizo rushing this so much? Why not engage the PF1/PFS1 community more instead of leaving them behind? I think if they took another year to refine PF2 and also come up with better compensation for PFS1 people that they'd be far far better off. This all feels quite rushed and like PF1/PFS1 is being left at the altar, very perplexing... I REALLY hope I'm wrong on all this, but I'm not feeling great (and I want to). :-/

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Quote:Now Paizo is [creating a new edition] in what, 1 year?No, they created it over however long they took and then playtested it for 1 year to do exactly what you claim they're not doing--engage the PF1 community.
lol I'm sure they internally tested, I meant external feedback. The community is who they are selling to, not themselves. They should allow for more time, but that's just my crazy opinion! ;-)

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I have to agree with Blake. Besides I'm not sure how much more Paizo can be engaged with the PF1/PFS1 community. I mean really, do want weekly updates to the rule set? A longer playtest period? Im at a loss. If you are saying that they shouldn't have done a new addition in the first place, or that your special whatever class/archtype/magic item/ect wasn't included in the Core rules, or I'm mad because....CHANGE then say that and we can talk about it.
Myself personally I have been in awe with the amount of engagement that Paizo has shown the community. The forum threads, the almost twice monthly rules updates, the sheer number of blog post to address concerns, are almost overwhelming to keep up with! My biggest gripe with the playtest is that speed and number of updates have made it hard for me to keep up with them in order to be adequately prepared to run the scenarios and provide my players with a great experience.
I am looking forward to the actual PF2/PFS2 rules and scenarios coming out at GENCON 2019. I am looking forward to continuing the stories of my PFS1 characters and can't wait to create new stories for new characters in PFS2! YMMV

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Bret Indrelee wrote:I would like some of those to be handed out to the venture agents that have to organize tables. Sort of like the Glutton for Punishment boon.As a VO, I do not want to have to manage replays. I already have enough to do.
I don’t want to manage them either, but I would like some help figuring out what people can play. The Glutton for Punishment boon can make that easier, which is why I mentioned it as an example.
As an organizer at a location, having a few replays you can give away so you can run a legal table would be nice.

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Well, 2 months later. When will you give us some numbers or decisions on replay?
Probably not for another six weeks, potentially longer. As we mentioned in the blog above, any changes to replay for the current campaign will not be put into place until approximately 1 to 2 months after the new edition releases (so likely sometime in September). While we will give everyone plenty of time to prepare for the new replay rules ahead of their implementation, we're currently looking at about a 7 to 8 month span before these rules would go into effect, and we're using some of that time to review, strengthen, and polish the system before we announce its specifics.

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James Anderson wrote:Well, 2 months later. When will you give us some numbers or decisions on replay?Probably not for another six weeks, potentially longer. As we mentioned in the blog above, any changes to replay for the current campaign will not be put into place until approximately 1 to 2 months after the new edition releases (so likely sometime in September). While we will give everyone plenty of time to prepare for the new replay rules ahead of their implementation, we're currently looking at about a 7 to 8 month span before these rules would go into effect, and we're using some of that time to review, strengthen, and polish the system before we announce its specifics.
Well, it's been another 13 weeks. Are you just going to sit on your answers until Paizocon, or not tell us anything until gencon?

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So did everyone's GM Stars disappear? (Except for a few privileged individuals?)
I am noticing a lot of people's names are naked.
And when I went to my account and looked at re-downloading my character card, it no longer has my stars on it.
Worked pretty hard to organize and eventually get my 5 stars, somewhat disappointed.

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So did everyone's GM Stars disappear? (Except for a few privileged individuals?)
I am noticing a lot of people's names are naked.
And when I went to my account and looked at re-downloading my character card, it no longer has my stars on it.
testing...
edit: I seem to still have mine... not sure what's up.

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So did everyone's GM Stars disappear? (Except for a few privileged individuals?)
I am noticing a lot of people's names are naked.
And when I went to my account and looked at re-downloading my character card, it no longer has my stars on it.
Worked pretty hard to organize and eventually get my 5 stars, somewhat disappointed.
Petty sure it's just a bug, generally always assume a mistake rather than ill intent when you see an unannounced change like that. As far as I know Paizo doesn't use a dev server so their code changes go straight into production, there's always going to be unforeseen bugs creeping up when they're changing around things like that, this time it's to do with stars/replays/etc, I'm sure it will be fixed soon.

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For those who lost stars, if you haven’t clicked on Refresh Points yet in the GM/Event Organizer tab of My Organized Play, try that. I had to do that to get the table credit to show back up. I never looked to see if my stars were correct, but if it isn’t reading the table credit, that could be causing the issue.