Pathfinder Society 2: Boons and Sheets

Wednesday, October 10, 2018

Since the beginning of the year, many of our organized play meetings have revolved around the second edition of Pathfinder in one way or another—especially since we launched a series of sticky threads asking for your feedback. As a team we've each been monitoring a few of these threads and incorporating their ideas, critiques, and concerns into our discussions. We began revisiting those topics in blogs last month with Linda's and Tonya's examination of tiers, level gain, and the structure of the Pathfinder Society Roleplaying Guild Guide. This week we're exploring two related topics: boons and Chronicle sheets.

Boons in Second Edition

Boons were one of the first elements I brought up in the very first Pathfinder Society playtest blog because they're so important to so many people. At the time, I brought up the boon format used in Starfinder Society, which provides a character six fixed slots: Ally, Faction, Personal, Promotional, Social, and Starship. Just after the mission briefing, a player can activate one boon of each type, representing the favors she's calling in, the special equipment she's requesting, the faction she's actively representing, or the non-combatant friend that she's bringing along. In addition, there are some slotless boons that represent obligations, reminders, and other extras that we don't want taking up a space or feeling optional (e.g. "Oh, you're out of luck, Mr. Villain, for I didn't slot my 'Mr. Villain will get his revenge' boon today!").

From a design perspective, we've been really happy with Starfinder Society's model. It helps us make informed decisions about scenario power level knowing that each PC only has a handful of upgrades not normally assumed in the RPG, rather than having several dozen upgrades. This is even more important in Starfinder than it is in Pathfinder RPG's first edition because the former has fewer bonus types and thus tighter math, so it behooves us not to throw off the math too much by inundating players with modifier-altering boons. The same is true for Pathfinder's second edition, and we have the same concerns about providing so many campaign bonuses that the gameplay or character design feels drastically different from a "classic" game.

That's nice in theory, at least. At this point, we've had more than a year to see the Starfinder Society boon system in action, and I've been following the boons discussion thread since it began. There are really mixed feelings about boon slots. Some people really like them, in some cases even citing the balance-related reasons above. Some folks feel that the boon slots are too restrictive, preventing someone from using a boon on the fly that they may have kept in their back pocket. For others, the boon slots are confusing or cumbersome, and I've read some very cross commentary that slotting boons just after the mission briefing breaks immersion or grinds play to a halt. For others still, the concept of slotless boons seems very jarring, as though including slotless boons undermines the concept of boon slots as a whole.

In compiling the messageboard feedback and discussing this with the rest of the team, we see three primary ways forward: typed boon slots, universal boon slots, and limited boons. For each of these, there's still a good chance that we'd tag each boon with a type (e.g. Ally or Social) because it provides more design space for us later (e.g. an assassin kills one of your Ally boons—how morbid).

  • In the Typed Boon Slots model, Pathfinder Society's boon system would look a lot like that of Starfinder Society. We would swap out one or more of the boon types (e.g. Starship) for something more befitting the setting and system. For example, we might have a Relic slot that's for especially strange or special gear (like an intelligent weapon), a Downtime slot that provides special uses of the downtime mechanic in second edition, or a Legacy slot that references some reward from a different campaign (like something carried over from first edition or earned in the Adventure Card Guild).
  • In the Universal Boon Slots model, a PC would still have a limited number of slots; however, there would be no Ally boon slot, Social boon slot, or the like. Instead, every slot would be equal. Do you want to slot a pile of Ally boons? Sure. Want to have several Downtime benefits at once? Go for it. Want to represent several factions at a time, gaining all of their benefits? Okay, that would theoretically be possible, even though we haven't worked out quite what it would mean to champion multiple factions simultaneously. Whatever mix of boons you'd want to use, you could do so with universal boon slots. My suspicion is that this would also be a little easier to manage with boon slotting during an adventure, for it would be easier to have a default array of boons that a player tweaks as necessary based on the adventure.
  • If we don't go with boon slots, we really have to consider a Limited Boons model to rein in the potential for mechanical bloat—the gradual increase in character power as more options or rewards become available. Limited boons could translate as awarding roughly the same number of boons as in first edition yet with each boon doing less, yet that's not a terribly fun approach; I can already hear some folks quipping that some First Edition boons are too weak as is. Instead, a Limited Boons model would be one in which boons are overall rarer so that their likelihood of stacking in a disruptive way is reduced. On the other hand, this wouldn't involve boon slots at all. The main complication is what happens to "convention boons," the incentives distributed at conventions, special events, and game days participating in the Regional Support Program. If boons are more rare overall, does that risk making convention rewards overly potent? No doubt we could find a solution, but it's one more hurdle.

What does this mean for slotless boons? Well, there would likely still be some form of Chronicle sheet tracking for events that we want to reference later, but depending on the Chronicle sheet format (see Mike's section below), there might be a means to record some of that in a non-boon format. That way, when you earn the "Grandmaster Torch's cat always hisses at you" outcome, you might not need a boon to remember it; it might instead appear in the adventure summary.

As an aside, one of the fun considerations to come out of our boon slot discussions was the idea of Events, which are ongoing situations that last for one or more scenarios. During the event (or at its end), some special effect would take place. For example, an investment might mature and give you extra gold at the end of an event, or you might earn the assistance of someone important for only a limited time. A Voluntary Event would be one that you could activate between scenarios, but it would likely occupy a boon slot during that time. A Forced Event would be one that happens whether you intended it or not, such as being the subject of negative propaganda that haunts your character for three scenarios—all the while taking up a boon slot. I'm mostly bringing these up as a possibility, and if it's something we want to explore more, we'll likely do so in an upcoming blog.

All told, there are lots of possibilities, and they intersect in many places with our exploration of Chronicle sheets. Michael Sayre takes it from here.

Chronicle Sheets

In addition to the threads we've opened to gather feedback from the community, we've worked internally to find solutions that can make Pathfinder Society more accessible, affordable, and interesting. I'll be discussing some of the proposals we have for what Chronicle sheets will look at in the new campaign and what goals the various styles are trying to address. Before I can do that to any meaningful degree though, you'll want to check out four different references: Chronicle sheet 1, Chronicle sheet 2, Chronicle sheet 3, Chronicle sheet 4, and a sample log sheet. I'll be referencing these below as well as in our Chronicle sheet survey.

One of the major goals we'd like to accomplish is maximizing the real estate on each Chronicle sheet, and we're looking to tackle that in a few different ways. First, most Chronicle sheets would present a single significant boon related to the adventure, as well as only small selection of magic items that would not commonly be available to players. Wealth would be evenly distributed across scenarios, rather than having the current situation that can occur where some adventures which give somewhat more wealth are preferable to play over other adventures that give somewhat less. Ultimately, if something appears on a Chronicle sheet, we want it to be significant and as broadly applicable as possible for the largest number of characters, though this doesn't mean we won't include particularly cool items that appeal more to (for example) fighters than wizards or vice versa when the adventure calls for it.

We quickly discovered that the community had all kinds of feedback on how Chronicle sheets are currently handled and what pieces of the Chronicle sheets people felt were pulling their weight and which were lagging behind. We also heard from a lot of event coordinators concerned with the growing costs of printing Chronicle sheets at events. In addition we're considering various proposals to allow players to experience stories in the manner most appealing to them, normalizing the value of Chronicle sheets in wealth, number and value of boons, and other areas across scenarios.

Chronicle sheet proposal 1 is the closest approximation to our current Chronicle sheet that we believe would be viable going into the new system. This full sheet style should be easily stored in a standard binder or character folio and has space for us to include a brief synopsis of the adventure in which you earned the Chronicle sheet, a small space for tracking purchases, and room for adventure-specific notes.

Chronicle sheet proposal 2 uses a 2-by-2, four-to-a-page style that should reduce costs for GMs and event coordinators who would normally be printing off 6 separate sheets of paper. Since this style only has room for a boon and item, it would need to be used in conjunction with the Scenario Logsheet (see the link above) or a similar tracking sheet.

Chronicle sheet proposal 3 features a 3-column, landscape oriented Chronicle sheet that gives us more room for boons and unique items while still reducing the print-load on GMs and event coordinators. This version would also require the Scenario Logsheet or a similar tracking sheet.

Chronicle sheet proposal 4 is a cardstock style sheet where each Chronicle sheet would be a single boon card. In this example we would generally not include magic items on Chronicles, unless the item was of Uncommon or greater rarity; instead Common rarity items would be broadly available based on your character's level. Beyond just the printing cost, though, this has the advantage of providing a smaller surface area that could let a player keep any slotted or active boons very accessible at the table.

Let us know what you think of the new proposals, and which options you'd most like to use going forward! We're including a link to both the Boons survey and the Chronicle sheet survey here, each of which include optional free response sections.

Pathfinder Society Boon Survey

Pathfinder Society Chronicle Sheet Survey

John Compton and Michael Sayre
Organized Play Lead Developer and Developer

More Paizo Blog.
Tags: Organized Play Pathfinder Playtest Pathfinder Society
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Sovereign Court ***** Venture-Captain, California—Los Angeles aka Neume

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shalandar wrote:
Jon-Enee Merriex wrote:
caubocalypse wrote:
Everything outside of Option 1 would be annoying to keep track as a player (I could see many of these getting lost). If printing is an issue, you can get sheets printed cheaply in black and white at any office supply store.

I run 3 T1 conventions a year. We have 75 to 100 tables a convention. We have to print 6 player chronicles and a GM chronicle for each table. That's 700 sheets of paper. Using the corporate rate discount at Kinko's (which is by far the cheapest you'll find in the Los Angeles area) on the cheapest paper it is still $0.06 a copy. Or $42 out of my pocket every con and that doesn't Account for things like pregens, boons, and faction journal cards.

Just because you don't pay it or don't see it, doesn't mean it is not a real problem.

I'm asking an honest question here....is there a reason you can't ask players to donate €1 per person to help offset administrative costs? I don't mean per person per table, I mean, just per person.

Or even work something out with Paizo to get, say, a special boon to auction off, where proceeds go to the organizer to help offset out of pocket costs to the admins at cons?

Players already pay $45-60 for a badge plus travel expenses. We are not allowed to charge players extra unless we're doing some type of tournament where there is prize money or all proceeds must go to an approved charity.

Michael Eshleman wrote:
Is there a convention fee? IMO you should recoup your printing costs there.

The convention gives us a budget which is completely used to pay for rooms and parking reimbursement for our GMs. And even then I end up spending money out of my pocket to cover parking for GMs because it takes a lot of GMs to run 100 games.

Having attended this convention for over 20 years and having been a VO in this area for over 5, you can bet I've stopped to do the math and worked every possible angle on this. The reality is our friends in AL don't have this problem because they've gone with option 5 - end chronicle sheets and boons completely.

Instead they use a log system that players can create how theyd like and if there is a boon or special magic item, the player records it on their log sheet. I don't understand why we can't do the same.

Additionally, I'm appalled at the cavalier attitude that "shifting the costs" to players is unfair. Currently, the people who do the most volunteer work to make games happen end up paying the most and somehow that's "fair". Asking people to buy sheet protectors for $2 is unfair, but me spending $150 a con on printing is not.

Price Example

And God forbid I didn't print the pregen you had your heart set on playing... Then I'm a MONSTER!!!

Grand Lodge ***** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

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I can see the appeal of the AL system, but there are reasons why people prefer PFS to AL, so we should be cautious changing our system to much to resemble their’s else we could start losing players. Some areas already have challenges to keep player interest.

One topic we need to address going into PFS2 is whether or not we intend to maintain an audit system. If not, we could virtually eliminate all printed sheets, even boons. If we are going to continue expecting audits, then our system needs to be organized as such to facilitate it in the easiest way. IMO, eliminating the ITS report and any ancillary tracking like log sheets is best with just a full-page chronicle with everything tracked on it. In most cases, an “audit” could be completed in a minute or less (assuming the sheets are up to date). If you need a longer more thorough audit, it can be done separately like most do now away from a scheduled session.

Dark Archive ***** Venture-Captain, Germany—Rhein Main South aka schattenstern

@Bob:

Quote:

What boons are you referring to? Other than the GM and charity boons, there aren’t any Gen Con exclusive boons. All the rest are used during the season for support fulfillment.

The GM boon isn’t exactly exclusive either. Generally the race unlocks are released later through the season like the other boons above.

My problem are the race boons.

I have GMed at a convention every quarter for the last 3 Years, so I should have seen all race boons that are out in free circulation. So where are race boons like changeling, catfolk, rougarou (and these are the only ones I KNOW that were given out at Gencon and not at a charity auction) etc? Not to alka about the goblin fiasko that I think even paizo realized it went WRONG.

Additionally the Glutton for Punishment and the full rebuild would be VERY helpfull boons to motivate GMs that have enough race boons. And for Starfinder (where races are worhtless as boons) the manifold host was not made available in continental europe yet to my knowlegde.

Sovereign Court ***** Venture-Captain, California—Los Angeles aka Neume

Bob Jonquet wrote:
I can see the appeal of the AL system, but there are reasons why people prefer PFS to AL, so we should be cautious changing our system to much to resemble their’s else we could start losing players. Some areas already have challenges to keep player interest.

So then we should not do option 2 or 3 because AL did both (and dropped both for option 5). Oh and we should definitely get rid of the suggested log sheet because it is almost a carbon copy of ALs (as others have already pointed out).

The idea that we should or shouldn't do something because of AL is so horribly flawed I don't know where to begin. We should do something because it is the best choice for the campaign regardless of what any other OP is doing.

Having said that, I actually think this ledger idea is strong. Unlike the log sheet here or the one AL uses, a ledger could be simple, straight forward and really easy to audit.

Each row could contain XP Earned, Final XP, Gold Earned, Gold Spent, Final Gold and then a line describing the source.

Example

Date | XP Earned | Final XP | Gold Earned | Gold Spent | Final Gold | Description | Notes

10/10/18 | 300XP | 300XP | 58sp | 0 | 58sp | PFS2 1-01 The First Adventure | Earned "Wayfinder" boon
10/11/18 | 300XP | 600XP | 56sp | 50 | 64sp | PFS2 1-02 The First Adventure II | Purchased Potion
10/12/18 | 400XP | 1000XP | 65sp | 50 | 58sp | PFS2 1-03 The First Adventure III | Purchased Potion. Used Potion x 2. Earned "Rare Find" reward (100XP bonus)

Or something like that.

**

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Quote:
changeling, catfolk, rougarou

Changeling has been in circulation for at least a few years.

Catfolk were an exclusive charity boon that went public through GenCon a mere year and a half ago as Tier 2. Rougarou was also just released a year and a half ago as Tier 1.

So I worked my tail off for GenCon50, didn't get to experience the Con outside of GMing for other people. One of the incentives to do this was a race boon. I know that I would feel... disencentivized... if 3 months later everyone started showing up with catfolk for having GMed one table at their local convention. What is the correct period of exclusivity? I'm not sure.

However, I think the solution is not to get rid of these incentives, but offer the incentives at equally large non-North American conventions.

Grand Lodge ***

Bob Jonquet wrote:

A completely digital reporting system would probably be far superior to the existing system, but that assumes two things that so far have been untenable.

First, organizers/GMs have to be 100% responsible and compliant when it comes to reporting. As a long-serving VO, I can assure you as a community we are no where near that level of accuracy. After the fact corrections have becoming increasingly hard to manage given recent events such as the change in privacy levels. As VOs our view of a player's history was modified making error reporting harder to repair.

Second, Paizo's IT team would need to rework the entire PFS reporting system both in how it functions and how it displays. While they work very hard to maintain the system, we have seen major disruptions in the system multiple times over the past year or so which would significantly impair our ability to maintain current, accurate records.

Accountability is an issue it seems for the Society, that I do not dispute. I do favor cracking the whip about it, possibly in the form of denial of boons to those who can't report or refuse to do corrections.

As for Paizo's website, yes it would need to be entirely replaced. I've stated over and over again that they need to do that. In my opinion it is quickly becoming their Achille's heel. If they don't want to provide the Society with a usable website for digital reporting and record keeping, then they could farm it out like they did the PRD to Archives of Nethys.

Let's face it, the Society is a crucial component of what makes Pathfinder a great game. They need to address some of their glaring problems proactively instead of ignoring them. Reporting issues and the website are two huge problems, and ignoring those problems will only cause more problems down the road. But if they don't address the website problem, digital reporting will never be viable.

Grand Lodge ***** Venture-Agent, Rhode Island—Lincoln aka Upaynao

I would like to echo the feelings of other in this thread: any tracking option that uses less than a full page is asking for any mildly disorganized player to lose half their chronicle sheets in the space of five minutes, turn to the organizer and ask for an exception to be made, because he/she "really doesn't know what happened to them" and, "can you help me figure out how much prestige I have so that I can get a raise dead".

***

Xathos of Varisia wrote:
I still think using a digital means of data storage and transmission would be the better deal. When a table is reported on Paizo, the Chronicle Sheets get issued via e-mail to the players. That's what I want to see. Those that want to print them out can do so. Those that want to store the digital copy can do that as well and bring them with a device to access them.

While I love this idea I have zero faith that Paizo will be able to create and maintain such a system.

***

Douglas Edwards wrote:


Options 2 and 3 are unwieldy and don't fit into any existing storage infrastructure.

Rubber bands and binder clips are cheap, lightweight and readily available.

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Lieutenant, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka thistledown

Blake's Tiger wrote:
So I worked my tail off for GenCon50, didn't get to experience the Con outside of GMing for other people. One of the incentives to do this was a race boon. I know that I would feel... disencentivized... if 3 months later everyone started showing up with catfolk for having GMed one table at their local convention. What is the correct period of exclusivity? I'm not sure.

It was more like 6 months, but that's exactly what happened with the Vanara boon. I was quite unhappy.

Silver Crusade ***** ⦵⦵⦵ RPG Superstar 2013 Top 8 aka GreySector

Jon-Enee Merriex wrote:
Michael Eshleman wrote:
Is there a convention fee? IMO you should recoup your printing costs there.
The convention gives us a budget which is completely used to pay for rooms and parking reimbursement for our GMs. And even then I end up spending money out of my pocket to cover parking for GMs because it takes a lot of GMs to run 100 games.

Sorry, I was under the misapprehension that these were events you were organizing yourself (where you could set convention badge pricing) and not events under the umbrella of a larger convention.

From an outsider's perspective it sounds like you are being pretty generous to your GMs. I've only ever received a free hotel room at GenCon and the one year I volunteered at SCARAB (1/4 of a room for each). I've never received parking reimbursement. For example, when I go to DragonCon I spend over $1,000 for a hotel room, plus parking fees, food etc. I get my badge comped by the convention for GMing, and I travel with one or two other people which helps cut costs, but it is still an expensive proposition.

I don't mean to sound callous, but it sounds like you have prioritized how you spend your funds. You could re-prioritize (which I understand isn't a helpful statement, as GMs now have an expectation of what they will receive).

Grand Lodge **

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Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Jon-Enee Merriex wrote:
caubocalypse wrote:
Everything outside of Option 1 would be annoying to keep track as a player (I could see many of these getting lost). If printing is an issue, you can get sheets printed cheaply in black and white at any office supply store.

I run 3 T1 conventions a year. We have 75 to 100 tables a convention. We have to print 6 player chronicles and a GM chronicle for each table. That's 700 sheets of paper. Using the corporate rate discount at Kinko's (which is by far the cheapest you'll find in the Los Angeles area) on the cheapest paper it is still $0.06 a copy. Or $42 out of my pocket every con and that doesn't Account for things like pregens, boons, and faction journal cards.

Just because you don't pay it or don't see it, doesn't mean it is not a real problem.

It's a little ridiculous that the whole thing comes out of your pocket, especially when it could be (and I would guess generally is) easily divided up between the various GMs that are running. (Do you print their adventures too?)

However, not being rude, but would you rather pay the $42, or $10.50 and spend your time carefully and neatly cutting 175 sheets of paper into quarters?

Paizo Employee ***** Organized Play Manager

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Xathos of Varisia wrote:
A completely digital reporting system would probably be far superior to the existing system ...

Yes, yes it would be. I had a 1.5 hour meeting with our Director of Technology and our primary coder about what tech needs OP has going forward. A digital recording system with pdf outputs was discussed.

It is feasible.

The issue is timing. If the OP team waits on tech, and something doesn't work or priority is shifted, we get to PFS v2 launch and are up the proverbial creek.

If we revamp the paper system, then get to launch time and have a tech solution, we have backup for those people that don't/can't track online. Because even in this tech world we live in, some people don't have access to reliable internet.

So this isn't off the table. But we want both ready to go in July and ready to launch. And we want to do so with the feedback of our community. For OP is *everyones* program and we would like to hear what *everyone* has to say.

*

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Throwing in my 2p

Add me to the folks who dislike the smaller sheets due to higher likelihood of getting lost, and reduced amount of space for fun stuff. Having stuff that works properly on A4 would be nice too :)

Personally I'd like to see the ITS totally replace the chronicles for recording character income & expenditure, but have it include everything, none of this ignoring purchases below a certain amount. Ideally it would cover character money, experience and prestige (assuming it's still used).

As for boons, I got extremely bored of race boons as a reward for GMing; as I don't get to play often, I really don't need another reason to be starting another character.
I also really dislike the starfinder way of doing things; having access to every boon the character has earned means that you could have something obscure and situational available when you need it without the scenario writer/GM having to give hints & spoilers to what's coming up. On the other hand a lot of the chronicle boons were so situational as to be effectively worthless.
It would be better to have fewer boons, but make them more meaningful.

As for online vs offline recording, I think it's important to have offline as an option at least, because net access is not always available.

Scarab Sages ***** Venture-Captain, Netherlands aka Woran

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As size goes, I like the full A4 chronicles. American A4 is different then the global A4, but its small enough that if I print a chronicle, I have a bit of extra white space at the top and bottom, but its minimal. The chronicle is still readable and usable.
I have no clue how the other sizes would work.

I also like the full chronicles because they are easier to read. While my eyesight is fine, due to dyslexia, a larger font is more easily to parse for me.

A4 also gives me and my player the oppurtunity to pick a storage medium that we like, as there are so many options out there. Four ring binder (your three ring binders are weird ;) ), multi ring binder? A single plastic folder per character? An office file system? I could go on. But its good that people can pick which is comfortable to them.

I also vastly prefer extra printing cost VS having to cut sheets into half/smaller pieces.

Grand Lodge ***** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

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Jon-Enee Merriex wrote:
We have to print 6 player chronicles and a GM chronicle for each table

To be fair, you don’t “have” to. I know a lot of areas do this in a similar way as Gen Con and it can be a challenge to change once it becomes a historical expectation, but local con HQs don’t typically print handouts, scenarios, maps, tokens, etc for GMs, so why print chronicle sheets? I’ve never done it at conventions as an organizer, and have never expected it from any I GM at. I print my own chronicles. We already have a hearty investment with gift certificates, boons, postings, and everything else that goes into organizing an event. I’m not saying anyone is wrong for printing chronicles for GMs, but that doesn’t mean it’s a requirement. Remember, WE are paying for it at local events. The organizers are not paying for it at Gen Con, Paizo is paying that bill.

Silver Crusade ***** Venture-Captain, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Bob Jonquet wrote:

Add my name to the list who dislike partial chronicle sheets. Making sheets that do not easily fit in a storage device be it three-ring binder, pocket folder, plastic protector, etc increases the chances of the sheets being lost or misplaced. We already have a problem with this and should not make it worse with "scraps" of paper.

Using smaller sheets will also limit the text that can be added or the font would have to be reduced. Neither of those are good solutions to the program. We already see a lot of areas using custom reporting sheets because the spaces on the downloadable version are too small and hard to read for some.

IMO, the first step is to decide (make a list) of what you want to accomplish by changing the system and then making sure the changes that are made support those goals. I think there is a very large number of people that dislike the ITS report and want to get rid of it even if only to reduce yet another piece of paper to track. The only real advantage the ITS report has over the original chronicle is the tracking of expendables. Unfortunately, it does not work in practice. I cannot tell you the last time I saw anyone tracking wand charges, arrows, bullets, etc. The few who are doing it are using HeroLab or some other digital system to track their uses.

So if one of the goals is to reduce the printing load, eliminate the ITS form and put purchase tracking back on the chronicle sheet. This is my preference and another reason why I support chronicle sheet option #1.

Item lists on chronicles are largely useless unless the item is special (like an intelligent item), unique (created specifically for the scenario), or cheaper access (like a reduce price or a partially charged item). Please stop wasting ink and our reading time by putting "minor" magic items on the chronicle (cloak of resistance, potions, etc). Make it meaningful, or just leave it off.

I have to be fair, I have been using ITS sheets since day one, and track all my consumables over it, but I started with season 6.

It might be a German thing, but frankly ITS printing it something players need to do, and I would personally think that having an overview of character items is very critical (though I use it for everything including arrows).

Personally, I would like to see the ITS block removed from suggestion 1.

Having all the purchases in one location is easier to mange IMO.

Silver Crusade ***** Venture-Captain, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

Douglas Edwards wrote:
Steven Schopmeyer wrote:
I want to reduce printing costs as much as possible, but I don’t see less than letter size being feasible and the need for the extra page cancels the saving out.

I want to go to bat for option 4.

If you can increase the size to playing card size the infrastructure DOES exist. Most of us play in stores that sell tons of magic the gathering supplies. Binders with playing card size slots in them exist and are conveniently available for most of us. Deckboxes/care protectors exist and can be a fun way to store characters (especially with dividers able to separate them). Even non card stock paper can do okay under these circumstances.

In this instance, we would just need a "ledger" sheet that allowed us to track XP/GOLD/PRESTIGE/FAME/PURCHASES/SALES. This ledger would become the only sheet you truly NEED to play your character and it puts all of your information in one place. I already have custom spreadsheets for this stuff in SFS and only don't in PFS because the initial labor is a bit daunting. It is, simply put, an easier way to keep track of everything.

** spoiler omitted **

Each character could get reduced to 5 or 6 sheets TOTAL from 35 or so. That's a huge win for storage and as a bonus saves organizers money.

In my experience, after playing MTG and other trading card games when it comes to sleeves you really have to buy the good quality ones, and even with those, the binders with a zipper are better if you want to be sure not to lose any. Which is something I haven't seen players use.

My main problem with this approach is material since the organizer pretty much has to invest in cardstock (and printing a lot of custom maps) my printer tends to complain about everything over 200mg paper (and my laser printers are in theory absolutely unwilling to work with paper that thick).

If the organizer just takes regular paper, that tiny slip of paper is not going to last. I tend to agree, playing card size is slightly easier to store for games than business card storage (I used to buy good business card storage sheets for my pawns.. but they are expensive), but just as many others argued, I am quite worried about the limited space available in that form factor.

Honestly, I can see an argument to use something like V2 but enlarged to a full page for those organized play members that have trouble reading small font.

Sovereign Court **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

In my experience not nearly all regular consumer printers can cope with heavier paper or cardstock. So a cardstock based system either requires using more expensive printers and paper, or often won't be used as intended.

MtG does a beautiful cardstock product. But it's built on consumers not having to print any of that themselves.

Sovereign Court **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

If we want to make printing chronicles cheaper, can we ensure the Pathfinder Society logo is in black and white? I cringe every time I get a color printed chronicle.

Grand Lodge ***** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

Lau Bannenberg wrote:
If we want to make printing chronicles cheaper, can we ensure the Pathfinder Society logo is in black and white? I cringe every time I get a color printed chronicle.

Why? Having it in color means that for those of us that want to print them in color can, and those who don’t can simply select black and white print.

Liberty's Edge ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Alaska—Anchorage aka Dragnmoon

2 people marked this as a favorite.
Tonya Woldridge wrote:
Xathos of Varisia wrote:
A completely digital reporting system would probably be far superior to the existing system ...

Yes, yes it would be. I had a 1.5 hour meeting with our Director of Technology and our primary coder about what tech needs OP has going forward. A digital recording system with pdf outputs was discussed.

It is feasible.

The issue is timing. If the OP team waits on tech, and something doesn't work or priority is shifted, we get to PFS v2 launch and are up the proverbial creek.

If we revamp the paper system, then get to launch time and have a tech solution, we have backup for those people that don't/can't track online. Because even in this tech world we live in, some people don't have access to reliable internet.

So this isn't off the table. But we want both ready to go in July and ready to launch. And we want to do so with the feedback of our community. For OP is *everyones* program and we would like to hear what *everyone* has to say.

I will go even further, an online tech solution that can connect with hero labs online would be my ideal solution.

Grand Lodge ***

Steven Lau wrote:
Tonya Woldridge wrote:
Xathos of Varisia wrote:
A completely digital reporting system would probably be far superior to the existing system ...

Yes, yes it would be. I had a 1.5 hour meeting with our Director of Technology and our primary coder about what tech needs OP has going forward. A digital recording system with pdf outputs was discussed.

It is feasible.

The issue is timing. If the OP team waits on tech, and something doesn't work or priority is shifted, we get to PFS v2 launch and are up the proverbial creek.

If we revamp the paper system, then get to launch time and have a tech solution, we have backup for those people that don't/can't track online. Because even in this tech world we live in, some people don't have access to reliable internet.

So this isn't off the table. But we want both ready to go in July and ready to launch. And we want to do so with the feedback of our community. For OP is *everyones* program and we would like to hear what *everyone* has to say.

I will go even further, an online tech solution that can connect with hero labs online would be my ideal solution.

Let's go even better! Sure, make it connect to Hero Lab, Hero Lab Online, and PC G, but why not have your own character creation system built into it to start with? It is feasible, but yes, it would require far more IT and maybe letting HL and PC Gen do the heavy lifting would work out better.

What I would like to see is a way to record the characters either through a pdf upload or via a transfer from HL or PCG, preferably both. If a character sheet(s) are available via the website, tracking could be available through it as well. When the need for an audit comes up, those with the authorization could do that via a read only system that displays the character sheet, notes changes, and chronicle sheets.

Grand Lodge ***

Tonya Woldridge wrote:
Xathos of Varisia wrote:
A completely digital reporting system would probably be far superior to the existing system ...

Yes, yes it would be. I had a 1.5 hour meeting with our Director of Technology and our primary coder about what tech needs OP has going forward. A digital recording system with pdf outputs was discussed.

It is feasible.

The issue is timing. If the OP team waits on tech, and something doesn't work or priority is shifted, we get to PFS v2 launch and are up the proverbial creek.

If we revamp the paper system, then get to launch time and have a tech solution, we have backup for those people that don't/can't track online. Because even in this tech world we live in, some people don't have access to reliable internet.

So this isn't off the table. But we want both ready to go in July and ready to launch. And we want to do so with the feedback of our community. For OP is *everyones* program and we would like to hear what *everyone* has to say.

When it comes to reporting data on the GM's part, less is more. How about setting it up so that the GM selects the scenario, puts in their #, the #s of the players, and the date? Everything should auto fill at that point unless the GM makes an entry overriding an autofill box. Say a name is different or the player is new and hasn't registered yet. Use Pregen when a Pregen is used, stuff like that. In cases of prestige, gold, or downtime (yeah, I caught that and I like it!) differences, the GM can override the prefilled data.

When a new player registers their player or in the case of any player using a character that hasn't been registered yet, once they do so, that character data should automatically fill in the appropriate places for sessions.

Also, a player should be able to see the session data, a copy of the chronicle sheet with their data on it, and the Paizo e-mail address of the GM so that they can contact that GM if there are any errors or questions.

Blank entries for missing data could be flagged and an auto e-mail generated for the GM and the player in question.

GMs could record purchases made by players which could then automatically go to either the character sheet of the player or could just be noted in itemized format for ITS type tracking (that would probably be the best way).

Just tossing stuff out there via brainstorming!

**

Xathos wrote:
. . . in the case of any player using a character that hasn't been registered yet . . .

You bring up a complication with digital only reporting: players with unregistered numbers.

At GenCon, for instance, I hand out tables full of new PFS numbers. Those players take their characters and chronicles to the next table and the next up to half a dozen or more tables before they register a character.

Assuming we'd still report on paper to the HQ and they would enter the data via a hard line connection, it could be weeks or months before those new players' chronicles even appear. The new players certainly wouldn't register their numbers until the end of the day at best (and it might be a choice between sleep vs. register my PFS number all week).

Sorry, that was a side track...

Grand Lodge ***

Blake's Tiger wrote:
Xathos wrote:
. . . in the case of any player using a character that hasn't been registered yet . . .

You bring up a complication with digital only reporting: players with unregistered numbers.

At GenCon, for instance, I hand out tables full of new PFS numbers. Those players take their characters and chronicles to the next table and the next up to half a dozen or more tables before they register a character.

Assuming we'd still report on paper to the HQ and they would enter the data via a hard line connection, it could be weeks or months before those new players' chronicles even appear. The new players certainly wouldn't register their numbers until the end of the day at best (and it might be a choice between sleep vs. register my PFS number all week).

Sorry, that was a side track...

No, it is something that needs to be brought up and addressed. GMs are going to have to have a reporting sheet with data on it filled out by players and turned into HQ for reporting...unless a barcode system was utilized. If a barcode system was developed and in use, the accumulated data from the recording instrument could be downloaded to the website for instantaneous results.

We will still have the new player issue and there will still be a need for physical sheets in some cases. I don't think we'll ever be able to get around the need for physical sheets in some situations. We will just have to adapt and overcome that drawback until the US has wireless Internet everywhere (not holding my breath for that).

Now, back to the barcode, if a barcode was used for every player # and player character, I think that would go a long way towards making reporting easier. A GM could print out a barcode data sheet for the session ahead of time. So could con organizers. A quick scan could record that data, the player data, the character data and that's that. Anything that would require changes to the barcode data would have to be a manual fill, but that's still less data to enter than we have to enter today.

Again, tossing stuff out there while brainstorming!

Dark Archive ***** Venture-Captain, Germany—Rhein Main South aka schattenstern

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While I am a big fan of everything that requires me to fill out less, purely online chronicles have one BIG downside:

A lot of conventions have shaky or no internet connection so they are worthless as a only solution as players will not be able to access the chronicle immediately. (And a lot of players will play more than one scenario per convention.)

Silver Crusade ***** Venture-Captain, Germany—Aschaffenburg-Würzburg

3 people marked this as a favorite.
Xathos of Varisia wrote:
GMs could record purchases made by players which could then automatically go to either the character sheet of the player or could just be noted in itemized format for ITS type tracking (that would probably be the best way).

Increasing the reporting workload of event organizers a bit, might be possible, but that suggestion a complete non-starter.

Xathos of Varisia wrote:

We will still have the new player issue and there will still be a need for physical sheets in some cases. I don't think we'll ever be able to get around the need for physical sheets in some situations. We will just have to adapt and overcome that drawback until the US has wireless Internet everywhere (not holding my breath for that).

Now, back to the barcode, if a barcode was used for every player # and player character, I think that would go a long way towards making reporting easier. A GM could print out a barcode data sheet for the session ahead of time. So could con organizers. A quick scan could record that data, the player data, the character data and that's that. Anything that would require changes to the barcode data would have to be a manual fill, but that's still less data to enter than we have to enter today.

A: This is not a US problem, this is a worldwide campaign and thus any options need to be accessible by pretty much everyone, and this includes people who might not have access to a smartphone.

B: The barcode idea is cute, but to be honest, there are way too many things that can go wrong, and as you mentioned above, if I have to provide physical options for some players (without knowing ahead of time how much to print, I'll have to prepare for the worst and print anyway).

---

Don't get me wrong, I would personally like a future where I could do all my organized play paperwork using my phone/tablet/PC via browser, but I think the tech is not quite there yet. I kinda hope to eventually get the option to hand someone a claim code and let the Paizo website generate a custom pdf, but any quality of life improvement comes with a cost.
In this case, it could leave some of the less computer savvy players behind, I know plenty of players who try to ignore the paperwork as far as they can, and some hope (successfully) that at the gaming table someone will help them sort their mess. That becomes much more complicated once you force people to interact with a tech.

I sound pessimistic, but any new change will have to be vetted on how it affects everyone (especially people with limitations).

Shadow Lodge ***** Venture-Lieutenant, California—San Francisco Bay Area North & East aka thistledown

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While it seems most of my new players do go to the website and register their number, only about half actually register characters. And those that do are poor about keeping it up to date when they make new characters.

Shadow Lodge ***** ⦵⦵

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I will make unrealistic goals and people WILL comply with them is not a plan.

Shadow Lodge ***** ⦵⦵

You could ditch the entire chronicle sheet paradigm entirely and go with something like an adventurers journal.

need
to
get
chart
past
pretty
wolf
picture

Adventurer's Journal for Loincloth the Barbarian
Adventure #_________Gold earned Prestiege earned Boon acquired Initials
1 Dawn of the dinosaurs..418.........2...........Designer Dragon ..BNW
2 The dragons dinner.....200.........1..............none..........SOGM
3 Duregars Dilemma.......451.........2............none............BNW
4
5
6
7
8
9

The only thing you'd need to print off would be boons at one page per six or better yet 9, then people could just plop them in a baseball card collector for tracking/sorting/slotting.

XXX
XXX
XXX

Ally Boon:
Hoard of dragon scales
You assisted the dragon
Blarghanathalx and he's
willing to cut you a deal
on dragonscale armor. Take
10% off Bronze dragon scale
armor and bronze dragons
don't particularly mind you
wearing this set.

It would be far easier to take a picture of/scan as a backup

You could shift the printing entirely to the player by having some sort of downloadable password for the boon.

Scarab Sages **** Venture-Lieutenant, Australia—NSW—Penrith aka sanwah68

1 person marked this as a favorite.
BigNorseWolf wrote:

You could ditch the entire chronicle sheet paradigm entirely and go with something like an adventurers journal.

Adventurer's Journal for Loincloth the Barbarian
Adventure #_________Gold earned Prestiege earned Boon acquired Initials
1 Dawn of the dinosaurs..418.........2...........Designer Dragon ..BNW
2 The dragons dinner.....200.........1..............none..........SOGM
3 Duregars Dilemma.......451.........2............none............BNW
4
5
6
7
8
9

The only thing you'd need to print off would be boons at one page per six or better yet 9, then people could just plop them in a baseball card collector for tracking/sorting/slotting.

XXX
XXX
XXX

Ally Boon:
Hoard of dragon scales
You assisted the dragon
Blarghanathalx and he's
willing to cut you a deal
on dragonscale armor. Take
10% off Bronze dragon scale
armor and bronze dragons
don't particularly mind you
wearing this set.

It would be far easier to take a picture of/scan as a backup

You could shift the printing entirely to the player by having some sort of downloadable password for the boon.

I really like this idea, and I already do the business card thing for my Starfinder boons. Maybe the business card could have the code for printing out the whole thing for those who like full chronicles. One improvement; the Boon should have the source.

Scenario: Dawn of the Dinosaurs
Ally Boon:
Hoard of dragon scales
You assisted the dragon
Blarghanathalx and he's
willing to cut you a deal
on dragonscale armor. Take
10% off Bronze dragon scale
armor and bronze dragons
don't particularly mind you
wearing this set.

Dark Archive *

Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

What is this strange 'baseball card collector' technology of which thou speakst, BNW?

All joking aside, the few gaming stores in our area do not typically carry the job-lots that'd be required for a vibrant and living PFS2 campaign. In addition, the few times they've been seen, they've been selling at a significant *markup* which would completely destroy *any* savings realized from smaller printings.

Sovereign Court **** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden aka Ascalaphus

I don't think a boon card approach is going to save a lot of paper in the long run, and it's kinda fiddly. I think it's only relevant if you really push for boon slots.

In which case, the following would be important:

1) The cards are designed to have the same dimensions as Magic cards. So they'll fit in the same sleeves and binders. Those are much more standardized across the world than A4/Letter paper. And widely available to geeks.

2) The number of boons to a page should be designed so the scaling always works out when printing to either A4 or Letter.

3) The number of boons should be no more than fit on a typical page of a binder (i.e. 9).

Liberty's Edge ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Indiana—Martinsville aka thaX

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For me.

Slotting boons is a headache.

Seriously, I am still wondering why this was considered for Starfinder and if anyone thinks it makes it any better than what came before.

If limiting boons is something that needs to be done, we need to have certain ones be "assets" that is a part of the character instead of being "slotless" boons. Race boons, those allowing training or learning new languanges, giving characters an extra trait or access to a particular "as if it was in addition resources" like archtypes.

Race boons needs to be available for more than just the GM's, though I do think GM boons can be a preview of what will come down the pike for later on.

Add me on the full page chronicle choice, and the ITS should still be considered, or at the very least the player could use the back of the chronicle to track purchases instead of taking room on the sheet itself. I think the note section should still be a thing.

Shadow Lodge ***** ⦵⦵

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Hillis Mallory III wrote:

For me.

Slotting boons is a headache.

Seriously, I am still wondering why this was considered for Starfinder and if anyone thinks it makes it any better than what came before.

It is absolutely 1,000% better than what came before.

If you don't have boon slots you have to keep boons so rare and meaningless that you collect them and forget them. I mean, "you get a +2 bonus on diplomacy checks with one eyed orcs in the puddles" are you really going to remember that in the unlikely event that it ever comes up?

I do not understand what is giving people a headache. A second level wizard has to slot more spells than anyone else has to slot boons. You slot your boons, you don't change them until you either 1) get a new one or 2) the dm tells you that the "Space paris hilton's friendship" boon is going to come up this time.

**

BigNorseWolf wrote:
I do not understand what is giving people a headache. A second level wizard has to slot more spells than anyone else has to slot boons. You slot your boons, you don't change them until you either 1) get a new one or 2) the dm tells you that the "Space paris hilton's friendship" boon is going to come up this time.

Or a cleric! A cleric had all the spels to choose from and what's best will depend on the mission and your party make-up.

In SFS, my 5th level character has 2 ally boons to decide on and 2 social boons to decide on, and most of the time, I'm using the same set up.

*

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BigNorseWolf wrote:
or 2) the dm tells you that the "Space paris hilton's friendship" boon is going to come up this time.

And that sort of thing is an even bigger spoiler than some of the earlier season's faction missions.

Shadow Lodge ***** ⦵⦵

Andy Brown wrote:
BigNorseWolf wrote:
or 2) the dm tells you that the "Space paris hilton's friendship" boon is going to come up this time.
And that sort of thing is an even bigger spoiler than some of the earlier season's faction missions.

Every time its come up so far its because the person has either been in the briefing room or is the subject of the mission. The stuff they tell you about before hand is not a spoiler.

If it was, it would be be a lot easier to have a mid point in the adventure "you can swap this boon for that boon now" Or even better, just make specific guy boons slotless (slotless boons are always on)

Even just a name change to Major boons (general and limited number) and minor (specific and very limited) wouldn't even change the actual mechanics.

The Exchange ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

Matthew Duval wrote:
I wonder if it would be possible to do mini handouts like Example 2 or 3 that the GM distributes at the event and have each be coded so that the player can access a full page digital chronicle on the site. The essential info is on the handout, and the players have access to full page printouts and expanded text on the rewards online afterward. Since the essentials are on the mini version, immediate turnaround on reporting isn't required.

This is an interesting idea. My gut reaction is that it will be more complex, but I don’t want to dismiss it out of hand. Let’s explore the implementation further.

Players would use a log sheet of some kind for the basics (XP, Fame, gold). At the end of each scenario the GM would pass out a small card (like example 4, above). It would have the names of the boons and a code for each boon. The GM crosses out whatever boons the players don’t get. The players go online, select the scenario, and put in the codes for the earned boons and get a chronicle with those boons. So the small card would look like:

“Scenario 3-14159: We love Pie” wrote:

Clockwork Insight (code 472452)

Earth Affinity (code 925538)
Grave Treader’s Inspiration (code 971402)

Upsides:

1. Less printing for the GM (you can fit 9 trading-card-size printouts on a sheet of A4/ANSI A)
2. GM does not have to report any additional information.
3. Tech implementation is relatively simple. (Does not require massive customization for multiple input types.)
4. Reprint capability much easier to implement.
5. Only carry around boons you intend to use (don’t need all your chronicles).

Downsides:
1. All players require internet access at some point.
2. “What does it do?” - Players may need need to log on to see full text.
3. Not immediately usable (at a convention or multi-game day)
4. Players could type in codes they didn’t earn.

2&3 are the downsides that really matter is to me. If you’re reading this you have internet access of some kind. As for number 4; we run on trust anyway.

Grand Lodge ***** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

It also assume that we will no longer be expected to audit characters since the player will not have their chronicles with them. Until we hear from our leaders that, that aspect of the campaign is going away anything that directly encourages players not to have their chronicle history or limits our access to it with not work with the expectations. Before we can really discuss what the future of the chronicle system will be, we need the leaders to designate the goals and parameters under which it will operate.

Shadow Lodge ***** ⦵⦵

Bob Jonquet wrote:
It also assume that we will no longer be expected to audit characters since the player will not have their chronicles with them. Until we hear from our leaders that, that aspect of the campaign is going away anything that directly encourages players not to have their chronicle history or limits our access to it with not work with the expectations. Before we can really discuss what the future of the chronicle system will be, we need the leaders to designate the goals and parameters under which it will operate.

I Don't see how a log book would be less auditable than chronicles (easier to forge yes :you just need 3 friends instead of 3 friends and a printer) , but not less auditable) Putting it on one page would make it easier to see someone's level if anything.

Gear would be a different sheet, an ITs type thing. it wouldn't have redundancy with the journal sheet but would be easier to check quickly.

Grand Lodge ***

It can still be a requirement for players to bring their chronicle sheets in order to play the character. But it could also be allowed for players to do that via electronic means such as a digital pdf on an electronic device. The audit opportunity is still there.

Shadow Lodge ***** ⦵⦵

Kevin Willis wrote:


1. All players require internet access at some point.
2. “What does it do?” - Players may need need to log on to see full text.
3. Not immediately usable (at a convention or multi-game day)
4. Players could type in codes they didn’t earn.

2&3 are the downsides that really matter is to me. If you’re reading this you have internet access of some kind. As for number...

you could hand copy it onto a small piece of paper and stick it in with the cards. Thats how i have my SFS character boons set up.

Grand Lodge ***** Regional Venture-Coordinator, Great Lakes aka TwilightKnight

1 person marked this as a favorite.

We cannot get people to routinely complete the chronicle sheet we have now and you suggest they could hand copy it? Seems like wishful thinking. I think any program where there are multiple pages, whether that be chronicle/ITS, or journal/cards, etc is going to generally fail. We’ve already demonstrated that. We need to be reducing and simplifying the process, but first they have to decide if we are going to continue audits or go to 100% self responsibility. If we want audits to continue and to be meaningful, we need the system to be easy to manage and easy to view quickly. I think that one page does that better than two. We can continue to use a full-sized sheet like we do now and add the equipment purchasing and tracking back the sheet like it used to be with slight formatting improvements. This gets all info into one place and continues to support the general filing system that most who bother to use one, use. That being a three-ring binder of equivalent. Simple, straight forward and something most everyone is familiar with.

OTOH, if we unburden VOs, local organizers, and GMs from doing audits then we can move to a much simplistic tracking method for records with a simple line-item ledger with a space for the GM to sign at the end probably being the easiest. Depending on font size and scale, we could get a character’s entire play history on a single duplex page.

Interesting anecdote. A couple of weeks back at a convention, the GM handed the reporting sheet to a player and before it made it all the way around, it was lost. Yes, we somehow lost the reporting sheet between seven people in a six foot round space. And we want players to keep track of 30+ chronicle sheets, multiple ITS forms, plus bonus boon sheets in addition to their character sheet and do this across multiple character, across multiple states/countries of travel, and across weeks, months, even years?!? Makes you wonder how we’ve managed to even be as good as we have been so far doesn’t it? ;-)

The Exchange ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Texas—Dallas & Ft. Worth aka Belafon

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Bob Jonquet wrote:
It also assume that we will no longer be expected to audit characters since the player will not have their chronicles with them.

I don't know about others, but when I audit I only look at chronicles if there is a specific question about a character option that can only be answered by looking at a chronicle ("you can't normally take that archetype"). I'm looking for errors. Everything from underspending point-buy to ignoring prerequisites or keeping items found in adventures without paying. The character sheet and Inventory Tracking Sheet is enough for me to find those errors.

I should say: it's enough for me to find unintentional errors. I set aside the possibility of actual cheating. Mainly because I trust people, but also because I seriously doubt anyone cheating competently enough for me not to notice on the ITS and character sheet is going to get caught by me looking at printed chronicles.

Which is a long-winded way of saying that I think a log sheet with gold/XP/Fame/etc. gained/lost that is numbered and initialed by the GM and an Inventory Tracking Sheet is enough for an audit. The way I see the proposal working is that if the players want to use a boon on a chronicle they would need to bring their downloaded copy. Don't have it, can't use it.

Shadow Lodge ***** ⦵⦵

Bob Jonquet wrote:
We cannot get people to routinely complete the chronicle sheet we have now and you suggest they could hand copy it? Seems like wishful thinking.

Hand copying something was only for boons. Its not necessary for anything else.

If

The adventure had a boon

AND The dm did not bring the boon

AND The player cannot print off the boon

AND The player wants to use the boon

AND the other DM doesn't know what the boon is for some reason

AND the other dm can't bother to check for some reason

THEN they can't use the boon. Which isn't going to wreck anyones character. Its mostly carrot and very little stick.

you're making plan Z out to be plan A

Quote:
I think any program where there are multiple pages, whether that be chronicle/ITS, or journal/cards, etc is going to generally fail.

For the journal idea, one page would replace 20ish chronicles.

One page could probably cover your purchases.
One page for boons

Down from a character having what... 40 pages towards the end of their career?

Quote:
We need to be reducing and simplifying the process, but first they have to decide if we are going to continue audits or go to 100% self responsibility.

Its a sliding scale, not an either or.

Quote:
OTOH, if we unburden VOs, local organizers, and GMs from doing audits then we can move to a much simplistic tracking method for records with a simple line-item ledger with a space for the GM to sign at the end probably being the easiest. Depending on font size and scale, we could get a character’s entire play history on a single duplex page.

"he just said the same thing i'm saying except he did this with his hands...."

*****

Bob Jonquet wrote:
It also assume that we will no longer be expected to audit characters

The vast majority of audits I have done or been subject to are looking at character option legality. I find gold and purchase audits are almost non existant although I do sometimes ask people to send me their ITS along with character sheet just to have a quick check. It is surprising how many people dont know what an ITS is.


The more I've thought about it, the more I'm liking a system where advancement and rewards are tracked on a log sheet and extras such as boons are printed separately as index or trading card sized slips.

I've been getting more into ACG lately and that system works pretty well, with the benefit of character folders becoming much thinner.

I still like full chronicles the best for the RPG, but the log sheet is growing on me as an alternative.

****

Alex Wreschnig wrote:

Cost-savings is an interesting proposition, because only one of these proposals (the business card proposal) actually saves money, and the amount of money saved is pretty miniscule unless you're at the scale of a Gencon or something. I don't think we should be making cost decisions for a massive organized play campaign based on the tiny sample size that is very large conventions.

** spoiler omitted **...

One thing you've missed is that as a GM (or organiser), you'll need to have Log Sheets printed out and available to your players too. At a minimum, it'll be one page per three player-slots, but let's be honest. With walk-ins, new players and lost sheets, I'd be surprised that it'd be less than one page per two player-slots.

So even the business-card sized pages would not be significantly cheaper.

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