Class Preview: The Operative

It's refreshing to see that the problem of untying shoelaces still hasn't been solved. The art looks great though.

Look, you want to look like one of the Level Eleventy 'Leets, you gotta wear the garb.

Besides, the occasional spare sensor-whisker is no bad thing...

When I was a kid, I often got yelled at by my gym teacher for not tying my shoes. "You're going trip and break your neck one day!" he would yell. Now I'm a grown up and my neck still works fine, so take that gym teacher!

Torbyne wrote:

Wouldnt Sniper Rifles generally be considered Small Arms? Or is it more of basic small arms is similar to "simple weapons" and "sniper weapons" is more like a weapon group, Monk Weapons or the like?

I would speculate that "small arms" here is being used in contrast to "longarms" - the "small arms" group is one-handed firearms while there is probably a heavier firearms group that is two-handed firearms, of which "sniper rifles" is a subset.

Yes, I got the impression that Small Arms was being misused, and only applies to pistols/handguns. Based on the basis that all the Envoy artwork features pistols, no rifles to be seen.

Milo v3 wrote:

James Sutter wrote:

We actually address that aspect of class abilities in the chapter's introduction, but the short answer is "any or all of the above." :D

Wait, so you can have extraordinary supernatural abilities now?

There's how the thing works, and there's how you got it.

How it works is, at the point your character is using it, extraordinary. It's not invoking magic to " bend light around yourself and muffle any minor sounds you make." Things like real-world interactive camouflage and sound dampening show that you don't have to have magic to produce those effects.

Nor is it a piece of gear that can be taken from you.

Now, maybe that means you had a technomancer alter the quantum state of your entire body, so you could have different light and sound refracting qualities. that certainly would take magic to accomplish... but once it's done you just do it, like glass allows light to pass through it.

Or maybe you learned deep meditation techniques. This is the same universe as occult rituals after all, there's no telling what you can do with mind over matter.

Or maybe you had Stealthites, a form of nanites, injected into your body that can cause this reaction, with the same biochemistry that allows your electric nerve impulses to continue to function even if you are hit by an EMP.

Or maybe you allowed a Vangarian Phase Ooze seep into every pore of your body, so you could gain its natural ability to be hard to see and hear, though you can only prod the thing into doing so for short bursts at a time. Plus, everything sweet now tastes like copper, as you aren't afraid to remind friends.

Those are decisions you can make to match your character's background.
the effect is extraordinary -- far from "normal," but not explicitly driven by magic or active technology, regardless of how you originally gained the ability.

So, what you are saying is Starfinder is actually a superhero game.

ROGUES GET GOOD WILL SAVES IN THE FUUTUUUUUUURE!

*ahem* I am super excited about Starfinder. I am loving getting a taste of the new classes. The Envoy looks really neat as well. I'm having no clue what to even DO with 8 skill points.

I've always been a huge Sci-Fi fan and my birthday is in August so Paizo I really appreciate this.

I love that picture! Though he should really tie his shoes.

You dont get it. Thats not the operative! The operative is the one who untied the shoes without being seen!

I have always thought of Pathfinder and now Starfinder as Super Heroic games. When you blend Scfi and Fantasy/Magic there my be many class abilities that similar to Super Powers. I am ok with it.

Dave2

Does that make sense?

I think so. Sounds really cool. Thanks for the reply. :)

TIE YOUR SHOES

Nah, see he has those back to the future shoes that lace themselves but he didnt harden them against EMPs like the n00b he is so when Absalom SecFor hit him with a shut down bomb his shoes untied mid run. Its why he is holding his cyber arm up high, trying to get it out of the blast. poor SOB, doesnt have a chance now...

Cloaking Field is an Ex ability based on holding a clipboard and looking like you belong there.

So how does this cloaking field ability work? Is it magic, some sort of "force" power, or tech? Because while I can wrap my head around a thief's sneak attack I can't figure how this cloaking field works. I've never seen this sort of thing work without the three things I mentioned. So I'm curious to hear how this works.

Well given the setting it could be magic or tech or a combination of both. May even depend on the characters choice for how to describe it.

Milo v3 wrote:

James Sutter wrote:

We actually address that aspect of class abilities in the chapter's introduction, but the short answer is "any or all of the above." :D

Wait, so you can have extraordinary supernatural abilities now?

There's how the thing works, and there's how you got it.

How it works is, at the point your character is using it, extraordinary. It's not invoking magic to " bend light around yourself and muffle any minor sounds you make." Things like real-world interactive camouflage and sound dampening show that you don't have to have magic to produce those effects.

Nor is it a piece of gear that can be taken from you.

Now, maybe that means you had a technomancer alter the quantum state of your entire body, so you could have different light and sound refracting qualities. that certainly would take magic to accomplish... but once it's done you just do it, like glass allows light to pass through it.

Or maybe you learned deep meditation techniques. This is the same universe as occult rituals after all, there's no telling what you can do with mind over matter.

Or maybe you had Stealthites, a form of nanites, injected into your body that can cause this reaction, with the same biochemistry that allows your electric nerve impulses to continue to function even if you are hit by an EMP.

Or maybe you allowed a Vangarian Phase Ooze seep into every pore of your body, so you could gain its natural ability to be hard to see and hear, though you can only prod the thing into doing so for short bursts at a time. Plus, everything sweet now tastes like copper, as you aren't afraid to remind friends.

Those are decisions you can make to match your character's background.
the effect is extraordinary -- far from "normal," but not explicitly driven by magic or active technology, regardless of how you originally gained the ability.

Very cool, i love that you can handle it however it works best for your character's story... but this is also the kind of effect i had been thinking would be easy to provide through a tech item, is that not the case? For what it does and to have a cool down like that, i would have thought a cloak or jacket or random slotless item could provide an effect like this before you got to level 10. i see that some specializations get even earlier access to it but are you just out of luck if you wanted a stealth field generator on your mechanic?

Torbyne wrote:

Wouldnt Sniper Rifles generally be considered Small Arms? Or is it more of basic small arms is similar to "simple weapons" and "sniper weapons" is more like a weapon group, Monk Weapons or the like?

I would speculate that "small arms" here is being used in contrast to "longarms" - the "small arms" group is one-handed firearms while there is probably a heavier firearms group that is two-handed firearms, of which "sniper rifles" is a subset.

That is irksome... i have never met someone who knew the term "small arms" but would somehow think it only applied to pistols. The idea that you could apply it to pistols and shotgun but somehow not rifles is even more bizarre. i hope it turns out to be "basic small arms; ie, pistols, smgs, shotguns, rifles, carbines etc plus Sniper Weapons; any two handed firearm without the burst or automatic weapon abilities. " or at the very least Sniper Weapons is a weapon group separate from basic or advanced small arms. Using the term small arms without including rifles is... bad englishing?

Cloaking Field is an Ex ability based on holding a clipboard and looking like you belong there.

Does that bonus stack with having a blue folder as well?

QuidEst wrote:

Cloaking Field is an Ex ability based on holding a clipboard and looking like you belong there.

Does that bonus stack with having a blue folder as well?

It should also stack with the hard hat and safety vest bonuses.

That is irksome... i have never met someone who knew the term "small arms" but would somehow think it only applied to pistols.

Really? I find it a quite common misapprehension, in fact.

I can wait for the technomancer class preview.

Torbyne wrote:

That is irksome... i have never met someone who knew the term "small arms" but would somehow think it only applied to pistols.

Really? I find it a quite common misapprehension, in fact.

It's common in gaming, both video and tabletop, for it to be literal.

small arms = one handed or otherwise compact.

I can wait for the technomancer class preview.

Huh. That's strange. I can't.

So far I have liked all that I have seen (granted only two classes, but still). I am stoked about the Operative, definitely going to be my first PC!

I normally don't like rogues but...

Now in excited for an operative!

Shisumo wrote:

Torbyne wrote:

That is irksome... i have never met someone who knew the term "small arms" but would somehow think it only applied to pistols.

Really? I find it a quite common misapprehension, in fact.

It's common in gaming, both video and tabletop, for it to be literal.

small arms = one handed or otherwise compact.

Huh, i cant think of any examples myself... i have seen plenty of times where you get weapon classes like pistol, shotgun, smg and rifle. But i dont think i have seen something where you have a single group to cover pistols and shotguns but not smgs or rifles. was that a D20 modern thing?

Rysky wrote:

Shisumo wrote:

Torbyne wrote:

That is irksome... i have never met someone who knew the term "small arms" but would somehow think it only applied to pistols.

Really? I find it a quite common misapprehension, in fact.

It's common in gaming, both video and tabletop, for it to be literal.

small arms = one handed or otherwise compact.

Huh, i cant think of any examples myself... i have seen plenty of times where you get weapon classes like pistol, shotgun, smg and rifle. But i dont think i have seen something where you have a single group to cover pistols and shotguns but not smgs or rifles. was that a D20 modern thing?

Maybe, I think it was like that in White Wolf games. It's definitely like that in a lot of video games, I remember being caught off guard for Fallout: New Vegas actually averting that and teaching me that small arms was a bigger category than I originally thought.

Torbyne wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Shisumo wrote:

Torbyne wrote:

That is irksome... i have never met someone who knew the term "small arms" but would somehow think it only applied to pistols.

Really? I find it a quite common misapprehension, in fact.

It's common in gaming, both video and tabletop, for it to be literal.

small arms = one handed or otherwise compact.

Huh, i cant think of any examples myself... i have seen plenty of times where you get weapon classes like pistol, shotgun, smg and rifle. But i dont think i have seen something where you have a single group to cover pistols and shotguns but not smgs or rifles. was that a D20 modern thing?

Maybe, I think it was like that in White Wolf games. It's definitely like that in a lot of video games, I remember being caught off guard for Fallout: New Vegas actually averting that and teaching me that small arms was a bigger category than I originally thought.

Yup. Small arms (as a military term) generally refers to weapons carried and operated by individuals as opposed to crew-operated weapons and artillery. So essentially pistols, shotguns, rifles, sub-machine guns, and non-mounted machine guns are all 'small arms'.

Milo v3 wrote:

James Sutter wrote:

We actually address that aspect of class abilities in the chapter's introduction, but the short answer is "any or all of the above." :D

Wait, so you can have extraordinary supernatural abilities now?

There's how the thing works, and there's how you got it.

How it works is, at the point your character is using it, extraordinary. It's not invoking magic to " bend light around yourself and muffle any minor sounds you make." Things like real-world interactive camouflage and sound dampening show that you don't have to have magic to produce those effects.

Nor is it a piece of gear that can be taken from you.

Now, maybe that means you had a technomancer alter the quantum state of your entire body, so you could have different light and sound refracting qualities. that certainly would take magic to accomplish... but once it's done you just do it, like glass allows light to pass through it.

Or maybe you learned deep meditation techniques. This is the same universe as occult rituals after all, there's no telling what you can do with mind over matter.

Or maybe you had Stealthites, a form of nanites, injected into your body that can cause this reaction, with the same biochemistry that allows your electric nerve impulses to continue to function even if you are hit by an EMP.

Or maybe you allowed a Vangarian Phase Ooze seep into every pore of your body, so you could gain its natural ability to be hard to see and hear, though you can only prod the thing into doing so for short bursts at a time. Plus, everything sweet now tastes like copper, as you aren't afraid to remind friends.

Those are decisions you can make to match your character's background.
the effect is extraordinary -- far from "normal," but not explicitly driven by magic or active technology, regardless of how you originally gained the ability.

This makes me curious how the ability compares to a piece of tech which essentially does the same thing. I assume there will be some form of equipment based personal cloaking device. Does it doe the same thing but cost a lot, or not perform as well, or need more frequent/expensive recharging?

Rysky wrote:

Torbyne wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Shisumo wrote:

Torbyne wrote:

That is irksome... i have never met someone who knew the term "small arms" but would somehow think it only applied to pistols.

Really? I find it a quite common misapprehension, in fact.

It's common in gaming, both video and tabletop, for it to be literal.

small arms = one handed or otherwise compact.

Huh, i cant think of any examples myself... i have seen plenty of times where you get weapon classes like pistol, shotgun, smg and rifle. But i dont think i have seen something where you have a single group to cover pistols and shotguns but not smgs or rifles. was that a D20 modern thing?

Maybe, I think it was like that in White Wolf games. It's definitely like that in a lot of video games, I remember being caught off guard for Fallout: New Vegas actually averting that and teaching me that small arms was a bigger category than I originally thought.

Yup. Small arms (as a military term) generally refers to weapons carried and operated by individuals as opposed to crew-operated weapons and artillery. So essentially pistols, shotguns, rifles, sub-machine guns, and non-mounted machine guns are all 'small arms'.

In our world. That may not be the case in the Starfinder Universe

Faelyn wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Torbyne wrote:

Rysky wrote:

Shisumo wrote:

Torbyne wrote:

That is irksome... i have never met someone who knew the term "small arms" but would somehow think it only applied to pistols.

Really? I find it a quite common misapprehension, in fact.

It's common in gaming, both video and tabletop, for it to be literal.

small arms = one handed or otherwise compact.

Huh, i cant think of any examples myself... i have seen plenty of times where you get weapon classes like pistol, shotgun, smg and rifle. But i dont think i have seen something where you have a single group to cover pistols and shotguns but not smgs or rifles. was that a D20 modern thing?

Maybe, I think it was like that in White Wolf games. It's definitely like that in a lot of video games, I remember being caught off guard for Fallout: New Vegas actually averting that and teaching me that small arms was a bigger category than I originally thought.

Yup. Small arms (as a military term) generally refers to weapons carried and operated by individuals as opposed to crew-operated weapons and artillery. So essentially pistols, shotguns, rifles, sub-machine guns, and non-mounted machine guns are all 'small arms'.

In our world. That may not be the case in the Starfinder Universe

That doesnt work though, the information is being relayed to us in english, not a made up term used in the setting, Navasi is not calling a group of weapons small arms, its informative rules text so it defaults to the normal English definition.

And if it was the definition of a word, I'd agree. But for a phrase? One that many people get wrong anyway? I can see them re-appropriating it.

Maybe sniper weapons are like bastard swords. If you aren't specifically proficient in them, they count as rifles. If you are specifically proficient in them then you can use their special rules.

its informative rules text so it defaults to the normal English definition.

This is almost certainly false, because it's informative rules text. Somewhere in the equipment chapter will be a list of what precisely "small arms" means in the game's context, and that may or may not have anything to do with the real-world definition. (See also: rapier, bastard sword, longsword, falchion, etc.)

And if it was the definition of a word, I'd agree. But for a phrase? One that many people get wrong anyway? I can see them re-appropriating it.

?

"small arms
ˈˌsmôl ˈärmz/
noun
portable firearms, especially rifles, pistols, and light machine guns."

they may have repurposed it but that would be making small arms the new "studded leather" of sci-fi.

Here's hoping Sniper Weapons is a weapon group unto itself.

Torbyne wrote:

its informative rules text so it defaults to the normal English definition.

This is almost certainly false, because it's informative rules text. Somewhere in the equipment chapter will be a list of what precisely "small arms" means in the game's context, and that may or may not have anything to do with the real-world definition. (See also: rapier, bastard sword, longsword, falchion, etc.)

Sad but true. :/ i have convinced myself that those mistakes were carried forward because of the history of the game and not wanting to confuse players coming from previous editions. In this age of abundant information i would like to think they would not continue to introduce alternative facts...

... seriously?

... seriously?

I could throw a sarcastic ";P" onto it if you'd like but the general sentiment is still there, it is annoying to see words that have meanings used inappropriately. D&D has a really long tradition of doing this and it makes the subject more sensitive to see it continuing.

Small Arms, Longarms, and Sniper Weapons are, as groups, all defined in the core rulebook. Their usage here, in the preview, refers to the game terms.

Which I admit isn't necessarily clear, since the phrases "average base attack bonus" and "fair base attack bonus" (in the Operative Preview) are adding a non-game term (average and fair) to a game term (base attack bonus) in a way that makes them sound different, but they aren't. They are both the 3/4 progression, for those familiar with how Pathfinder does those things.

Since it's come up, the weapon proficiencies are basic melee weapons, advanced melee weapons, small arms, long arms, heavy weapons, sniper weapons, grenades, and then there are special weapons. I'll likely talk about that a bit more in the soldier class preview.

While I understand (and appreciate) why people familiar with the real-world term "small arms" (which covers everything a single person can carry and operate on their own, as opposed to squad and light vehicle weapons) find it being used differently within Starfinder annoying, within the context of the rules it's clearly defined.

You're comparing the miss-classification of weapons by people who are not RL weapon experts to outright deranged lying.

You're comparing the miss-classification of weapons by people who are not RL weapon experts to outright deranged lying.

Yes and i said i could put a sarcastic identifier on the comment if you'd like because tone cant really be relaid in text. But i disapprove of both practices, this is how we have people who believe in a flat Earth of the existence of studded leather ;P

Small Arms, Longarms, and Sniper Weapons are, as groups, all defined in the core rulebook. Their usage here, in the preview, refers to the game terms.

Which I admit isn't necessarily clear, since the phrases "average base attack bonus" and "fair base attack bonus" (in the Operative Preview) are adding a non-game term (average and fair) to a game term (base attack bonus) in a way that makes them sound different, but they aren't. They are both the 3/4 progression, for those familiar with how Pathfinder does those things.

Since it's come up, the weapon proficiencies are basic melee weapons, advanced melee weapons, small arms, long arms, heavy weapons, sniper weapons, grenades, and then there are special weapons. I'll likely talk about that a bit more in the soldier class preview.

While I understand (and appreciate) why people familiar with the real-world term "small arms" (which covers everything a single person can carry and operate on their own, as opposed to squad and light vehicle weapons) find it being used differently within Starfinder annoying, within the context of the rules it's clearly defined.

Thank you for clarifying the meaning it at least lays it out clearly. :)

Looks good, I may actually look at "the rogue" in a system for once. At least give it a shot to see if my style can built out of it. I have a feeling Soldier and Solarion are more likely to be my thing though. So politely requesting those previews.

Yikes... that, uh, went south really quickly. I was just giving a non-game term a definition for folks that might have been interested. I was in no way looking to dispute the way Paizo has planned anything for their game (if my post was taken that way by anyone).

Thanks, Owen, for clarifying the In-Game terms for weapons. I think that is a great way to handle weapon proficiency, because realistically every firearm style has a very different way of being handled!

The character art previewed for Starfinder has really been knocking it out of the park.

I'LL TAKE A DOZEN!

Yeah, the ghost-specialized operative would be an awesomely lethal option for us gobs (or Tucker's kobolds).

The character art previewed for Starfinder has really been knocking it out of the park.

The only art up till now that I didn't really like was the Castrovel planet picture.

I am in love with the clothing the two Eox people wear (although I want mine to be either dark blue or dark green instead of black, and the green one with gold lines instead of silver) and I adore the Castrovel elf art.

I like art of the Starfinder iconics a lot , and am looking forward to the stories and the other previews of the classes.

As long as the definitions are clear, I'm not overly concerned if they don't match what the politicians (small arms laws) or even the US Army currently says.

The golden dragon emblem is a nice detail.

Mengkare perhaps? I might have spelled it wrong, but I'd imagine the Dragon run nation devoted to human advancement would've made it to the stars.

any new for the class act solerian ?

We're doing a lot of preview blogs, and they are schedule all the way up to the release day, so we will get to the solarian class preview, but I'm not sure just exactly when.

Will you do a preview on point buy?

My friends seem concerned that not giving points for lowering stuff below 10 will mean everyone's character will end up samey within the same role.

All soldiers having the same "16 STR, 16 DEX, 13 CON, 10 INT, 10 WIS, and 10 CHA", or every mystic will be "10 STR, 12 DEX, 12 CON, 12 INT, 18 WIS, 10 CHA", etc.

We're doing a lot of preview blogs, and they are schedule all the way up to the release day, so we will get to the solarian class preview, but I'm not sure just exactly when.

Ok thanks Buddy. Best for you and happy gaming.

We're doing a lot of preview blogs, and they are schedule all the way up to the release day, so we will get to the solarian class preview, but I'm not sure just exactly when.

The solarian is a Starfinder monk like class ?

Owen K. C. Stephens wrote:

We're doing a lot of preview blogs, and they are schedule all the way up to the release day, so we will get to the solarian class preview, but I'm not sure just exactly when.

The solarian is a Starfinder monk like class ?

I have heard it is very similar to the Kineticist from some other posters on the forums.