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They have done stuff with the king in yellow? I have been a little out of the pathfinder scene for a while. The irony is that this adventure done right...
- slow exp track(with the path topping off around 8th level).
- lots of human antagonists and environmental threats
- adventure design focused on investigation and mystery
- OSR approach to threats (yes this first level adventure has a number of CR 8 monsters, why did you think that the alien horror from beyond the stars was something it was a good idea to try and fight?)
-lots of focus on building a sense of mystery and dread, punctuated by a small number of TPK risking combats....would get me right back into Pathfinder.
Yes, my favorite thing is when my character gets killed a lot because people equate "High CR" with scary.
As much as I'd like to see an e7 or e8 Adventure Path, that's really unlikely. So if I'm going to be a 17th level character at the end of the AP, I'm gonna wanna punch a mythos monster.
Mythos monsters are still monsters, and in Pathfinder heroes fight monsters.
Call of Cthulhu is the game with lots of dead investigators and ineffable horrors that you can't really do anything about. Pathfinder is heroic fantasy.
Also HP Lovecrafts works aren't sacred texts. They're kinda dull, and pretty racist even for their time.
Chthulhu got conked on the head by a boat and went back to his nap.
My Brawlbarian could hit harder than a boat at level 17.
I for one hope this adventure path ends with my Brawlbarian punching Cthulhu in his stupid squid face.
I want my heroes to eff the ineffable.
Well I'm not quite a Barbarian, or probably the Brawler you were talking about, but if my teammates ever post you can live vicariously through me.
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Pathfinder(like DnD) is capable of being a lot of things, and there is something to be said for an AP that explores some of those other things.
Lovecraft isn't your thing.
Cool, so maybe a lovecraftian adventure path isn't your thing.
But for those of us, who consider cosmic horror to be their jam, getting so close to something we really want to see done in pathfinder, and then having everything that makes it cool stripped out, and turned into a series of punching out weird looking monsters is kinda gauling. Why do the Mythos, if your not going to actually do the Mythos.
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Pathfinder is heroic fantasy.
Where "heroic" is defined by a group of 4-6 guys beating up monsters that they are vastly more powerful than....before they put on a full wardrobe of magic items.
Meanwhile, over in Call of Cthulhu, a antiquarian, a Latin professor, and a detective save the world from an unspeakable evil, despite having to sacrifice their lives or sanity to do so.
Call of Cthulhu is heroic fantasy...Pathfinder is "bully" fantasy.
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If you look at the Mythos and related material, you can find "purist" approach which is about hopeless humanity standing no chance against cosmic horrors in some basement in Arkham, abd the "pulp" approach which is about throwing dynamite at cosmic horrors in an airplane somewhere above Shangri-La. Pathfinder obviously leans towards the latter, and is not the first RPG to do so - Trail of Cthulhu has rules and adventures for both narrative styles. I think Chaosium has a pulp sourcebook for Call of Cthulhu as well.
Let me let you in on a secret. Even in pulpie takes on the mythos, most people involved die horrible deaths, unless the writer is Brian Lumley, in which case you put the book.
Most pulp fights are with cultists. Occasionally you might have get a firefight migo or some such, or use a weird bit of alien technology to thwart an elder evil, but you still don't duke it out with old squid face. For context, the Masks of Nyarlathotep, is a hugely pulpy Call of Cthulhu adventure, you might even survive to thwart Nyarlathotep's plans in the short term. It has an evil genious on a tropic island with a dooms day weapon, for godsake, but tell you what. if the investigators try punching cthulhu, they are gunna get eaten.
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I'm in a pretty middling position here myself, so I can see both sides of this argument, and I can appreciate both sides.
Honestly, I doubt either side is going to get 100% what they want. It's going to be somewhere in the middle. Pathfinder just plain isn't geared right for the sort of campaign that the Lovecraft purists likely want. But on the other hand, I also doubt that the hack-and-slashers are going to have free reign either. Consider that they are putting out not *only* Horror Adventures -- a book that seems *specifically* geared to facilitate the more Lovecraftian type of adventure -- but *also* Ultimate Intrigue, which is supposed to be about investigation, skills, and so on, rather than hack-and-slash. That's two hardcovers worth of material that they are putting into the playfield *just* before this AP. There's a reason why gaga-for-Lovecraft James Jacobs has held off his dream AP until now, and I'm willing to bet that a big part of it is that they finally got out the Intrigue and Horror rules -- just like he waited for Ultimate Combat before he could do Jade Regent.
The AP is going to be rules-wise more Lovecraftian than any AP until now. The extra rules aren't coming out for no reason just before the AP. Count on it.
On the other hand, Pathfinder is and probably always will be at its core a hack and slash gaming system, and it has a huge built-in hack and slash audience. I wouldn't expect Paizo to do a full 180 and basically abandon everyone who wants that sort of game either. You might not get to punch out Cthulhu himself, sadly for those who might want to, but there will probably be lots of 'lesser' aberrations to slay along the way.
I think the most fun will be had by those who will be able to be a little bit flexible, and not demand either extreme. I hope that a lot of people will be able to enjoy this AP, and I encourage everyone to try to keep an open mind. There will no doubt be lots of call-outs to both sides in the AP -- try to focus on the call-outs towards you, and try to skim the call-outs to the other side. I really think there's a lot of promise here.
Beyond that, I would rather the details were posted here, rather than being directed to a podcast I have no interest in being exposed to.If you can't be bothered to click on a link to read the information, and instead demand that Paizo write again the same information on their blog, then you deserve to be without the information. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. "This company must release their information in the way that I choose, or I won't read their information!" Well, uh, have a ball there sport. Meanwhile the rest of us will discuss the Strange Aeons AP.
I swear to god, this world has no nope when people are too lazy to click on a single link. Or worse, demanding that they can dictate where and how companies should release their announcements.
Like Oceanshieldwolf, I don't "demand" it, but I'd also prefer it.
I generally don't trust the Internet (or more accurately, don't trust myself to spot dodgy parts of it) and don't go blindly wandering off to sites I don't know well. That's not lazy and I don't expect Paizo to do it my way - I'd still like them to, what's wrong with that?
Well, that was a short argument. We're just not in the GenCon spirit. :p
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I literally just developed a system for corruption for a third party which combines madness and transforming slowly into an abomination (with associated boons and penalties). Paizo, why do you do this to me?!?!
You are tearing him APART, Paizo!
Sweet.
Are you referring to Chambers's original works (The Repairer of Reputations, et al.)? If so, agreed. The whole "half-brother of Cthulhu" thing was silly.
Ugh, Derleth. Yes, that's what I'm referring to. There was a disclaimer that some of the Old Ones were changed to better fit in with Pathfinder, but I don't feel like they looked much past Chaosium's material for Hastur, i.e. Derleth...though I do see some Delta Green flavoring in there, which saves it a little bit.
As for Atlach-Nacha, is The Seven Geases in the public domain? That might not stop them (see Coeurl, Dark Young)... but it might.
Wiki says it's public domain.
They have done stuff with the king in yellow?
A few things. He's mentioned briefly in Inner Sea Gods, and has a write-up with the rest of the Lovecraft "pantheon" in Carrion Crown's Wake of the Watcher. Also, the stats for Hastur appear in Bestiary 4, along with a small description of Hastur's cults.
I've made commentary elsewhere on the forums about Hastur's domains, at the very least they should seriously consider switching Rune for Madness. Then again, it's just a game and there's no real incentive to stay true the the source material beyond sentimentality. People love tentacles, so let's put tentacles on everything.
Well at least there should be some interesting monsters in the bestiary.
This looks promising, and I'm looking forward to Horror Adventures! :)
My only concern is that it is apparently coming out simultaneously with the Strange Aeons AP. The last time we had a hard cover rulebook come out simultaneously with a related AP ... it didn't work too well. (Mythic Adventures plus Wrath of the Righteous AP.) I'm crossing my fingers that things will go a lot better this time.
If it makes you feel any better, Norgorber's original title was supposed to be The Repairer of Reputations. ^_^
I don't know why they changed it... I think Mr. Jacobs remembered incorrectly for The Skinsaw Murders. And ever since then, it's stuck.
I am pretty sure it was in fact the reaper of reputation.
I am sure that unlike last time you will not need the Horror Adventures book to play this AP.
They have done stuff with the king in yellow?A few things. He's mentioned briefly in Inner Sea Gods, and has a write-up with the rest of the Lovecraft "pantheon" in Carrion Crown's Wake of the Watcher. Also, the stats for Hastur appear in Bestiary 4, along with a small description of Hastur's cults.
I've made commentary elsewhere on the forums about Hastur's domains, at the very least they should seriously consider switching Rune for Madness. Then again, it's just a game and there's no real incentive to stay true the the source material beyond sentimentality. People love tentacles, so let's put tentacles on everything.
If your a big fan of the John Scott Tynes approach to Hastur, you might consider checking out the Bosworth House
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I am pretty sure it was in fact the reaper of reputation.If it makes you feel any better, Norgorber's original title was supposed to be The Repairer of Reputations. ^_^
I don't know why they changed it... I think Mr. Jacobs remembered incorrectly for The Skinsaw Murders. And ever since then, it's stuck.
I wasn't lying, just misremembering. I found the story.
If your a big fan of the John Scott Tynes approach to Hastur, you might consider checking out the Bosworth House
Thank you for sharing that, I enjoyed reading through it.
On another note, people keep raving about the yellow sign, but it's reading the play that starts the madness and gives Hastur dominion over the soul.
Beyond that, I would rather the details were posted here, rather than being directed to a podcast I have no interest in being exposed to.
If you can't be bothered to click on a link to read the information, and instead demand that Paizo write again the same information on their blog, then you deserve to be without the information. Talk about cutting off your nose to spite your face. "This company must release their information in the way that I choose, or I won't read their information!" Well, uh, have a ball there sport. Meanwhile the rest of us will discuss the Strange Aeons AP.
I swear to god, this world has no nope when people are too lazy to click on a single link. Or worse, demanding that they can dictate where and how companies should release their announcements.
The link goes to a short update on what happened apparently at a Panel. It doesn't really tell me anything, and Paizo could have written their own, much more informative Blogpost.
Also, I don't come to the Paizo website to go to another website to find out information that I feel should and easily could be provided by the Paizo website.
Not demanding. Just providing feedback.
Thanks Samy.
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The devs responded to playtest feedback through the Know Direction podcast instead of within the playtest forum itself. This irritated a lot of playtesters who didn't know they were doing this until 1-2 weeks into the playtest.Nor is this the first time this has happened - there was a similar chain of events during the Vigilante Playtest.What chain of events was this? The announcement that there would be a Vigilante class in the next hardcover and that they were going to have an open playtest was made at Paizocon, yes, but as far as I can recall, the first mention of the playtest starting was here on the website, when they updated the left side of the screen with the big shiny orange button saying "Vigilante Playtest Open Now!"
(The one that's still up there.)
Yep, Insian Dragoon has the right of it. I posted a thread asking for some changes to the way the playlets was run, specifically about the dev posting their thoughts on what changes they were thinking of making, and what concepts the platesetters had that they thought had some merit.
Rather than a thread to do something like this, or an announcement, I found out by a circuitous route (randomly coming across) - a link to ...Know Direction podcast. Which was not a post, but an hour long rambling conversation.
You did hear about it from paizo....this is their blog. Or am I missing something and this isn't the paizo blogs section nope, definitely a blog post....I think your tin foil hat is showing...This is one of the problems people have with Paizo communication.
Why are we hearing important announcements through some podcast instead of Paizo proper?
Actually I'n pretty sure those of us not at Gencon found out about it first via posts from convention goers, who also linked the podcast.
Beyond that, I would rather the details were posted here, rather than being directed to a podcast I have no interest in being exposed to.
Nor is this the first time this has happened - there was a similar chain of events during the Vigilante Playtest.
Why is this chain of events bad?
Why do you not want to be "exposes" to new things?
You are assuming that the Know Direction podcast is new to me.
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[end threadjack]
Yeah I think Wrath of the Righteous was the AP that convinced Paizo not to do APs that extensively involve new rules that are releasing at the same time. Since the AP folks are not involved in the heavily involved in the hardcover line.
I do sort of expect that this is really going to be the Occult Adventures AP. Although no doubt elements of Horror Adventures will be useful for this game.
I think Gorbacz may have a point. After all, killing off your entire roleplaying PC party as fast as possible or putting them in a hopeless situation every single encounter has a nasty habit of causing them to not want to come back to the table. Also, I don't think anyone is saying that some PC's won't die or develop an insanity or two at some point in this adventure path.
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I think Gorbacz may have a point. After all, killing off your entire roleplaying PC party as fast as possible or putting them in a hopeless situation every single encounter has a nasty habit of causing them to not want to come back to the table. Also, I don't think anyone is saying that some PC's won't die or develop an insanity or two at some point in this adventure path.
Funnily enough it is a state of affairs not dissimilar to what you are describing that tends to bring horror gaming fans and old school fans to a table.
And they are writing a horror adventure. They are going out of their way to do something a little different. What is the point of going that far, and then not actually going through with it?
It is a little like me saying..."yeah, this wrath of the rightous thing sounds pretty cool, but rather than going with the mythic rules and strong thematic focus on good, we write a run of the mill pathfinder murderhobo story, and just say it is a campaign of epic goodness, because you know, not everyone is into good PC or the mythic rules."
Even if they did want to end the adventure with punching Cthulhu in the face, you don't need mythic ranks for that. The starspawn of Cthulhu is right around the CR of most of the end bosses in the APs. If there is any boats to be driven into a Promethean horror from the depths, I suspect they will be directed towards such a destination.
I mean, there are two Hell themed APs coming up, and I bet that none of them end in a fight with Asmodeus or even a lesser Lord of the Nine. The last time they even put a pit fiend in one, they gave him like ten negative levels.
I'm actually hoping that they cap new classes for a long time. There's almost forty now, plus between like five and twenty archetypes for them all and it is getting cumbersome. Wouldn't mind a cork put in the spell bottle either, but switching out spells is easier than relearning what fiddly little bonuses the swashbuckler has going on in a combat.
Funnily enough it is a state of affairs not dissimilar to what you are describing that tends to bring horror gaming fans and old school fans to a table.
And yet not every player of Pathfinder is a fan of horror games like Call of Cthulhu.
And they are writing a horror adventure. They are going out of their way to do something a little different. What is the point of going that far, and then not actually going through with it?
They are going through with it, just in their own way. This is Pathfinder RPG, not Call of Cthulhu. Plus they have to market a product. Would it make sense to kill off the entire PC Party on Part 1 or 2 of the Adventure Path by pitting them against foes they absolutely cannot win against and thus they'd never make it to Part 3 let alone Part 6? I'm not saying your way doesn't have an appeal to it but I believe it's best reserved for the horror games your into.
Even if they did want to end the adventure with punching Cthulhu in the face, you don't need mythic ranks for that. The starspawn of Cthulhu is right around the CR of most of the end bosses in the APs. If there is any boats to be driven into a Promethean horror from the depths, I suspect they will be directed towards such a destination.
I mean, there are two Hell themed APs coming up, and I bet that none of them end in a fight with Asmodeus or even a lesser Lord of the Nine. The last time they even put a pit fiend in one, they gave him like ten negative levels.
Even better, a Starspawn of Cthulhu with the Advanced and Giant templates attached to it. BOOM! Challenge Rating 22 right there! :D
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I think a gloves-off-hardcore-Mythos campaign would lead to a new model for AP's: One where each adventure starts at first level because it's assumed the party for each previous installment was consumed completing it.
Assuming that is not the plan, (and based on the comments reported from the panel) I'd say we're going to see something a little more in between the options of "CoC style" and "Pathfinder traditional".
I would guess that the Horror Book (I'd like to see it named "Horrific Adventures" but that's just me) adding in things like insanity/corruption rules will give DM's a chance to do interesting things to a party over the course of 15 levels beyond just outright killing the PC's or trying to make them run away. I suspect it will be about as key to running the AP as Mythic is to Wrath of the Righteous, Technology is to Iron Gods, and Ultimate Campaign would be to someone starting a new Kingmaker game. Maybe not technically essential, but a good idea nonetheless.
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The video game Darkest Dungeon I think does a lot for mixing Horror and Dungeon Delving. They make a big point out of things like how much light you have, the mental stress of .... unknowable things lurking in the dark. The narration is a huge part of it.
Plus even in the Lovecraft stories there is some hack and slash. There is one featuring a man who is the reincarnation of Conan remembering that past life as he delves into an underground cavern.
It's about how you tell the story as much as the content
I mean, there are two Hell themed APs coming up, and I bet that none of them end in a fight with Asmodeus or even a lesser Lord of the Nine. The last time they even put a pit fiend in one, they gave him like ten negative levels.
Mmmmh... seems to me a fight with Asmodeus is out of the question. Even in WotR, which is the AP that allows your characters to eventually fight demon lords Gods are portrayed as FAR more powerful than even your lvl20 mythic 10 characters, or so I'm told anyway.
Also I have on good authority that in WotR you face fully statted mythic Balors quite a few times, and they are supposedly to be at least as powerful as Pit Fiends if not more.| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
In CoC, your PCs are swiftly generated and with the understanding that they're expected to die, and could easily do so at any time.
Pathfinder PCs? Pathfinder PCs can take quite some time to make and certainly aren't expected to die immediately. (Okay, at 1st level they can still die at any time, but 1st level ends pretty quickly.)
Anyways, I suspect Wake of the Watcher might be a preview how some of the AP chapters may work -- PCs while the trail of something else enter into an area that is deeply and utterly messed up in some way, and have to both figure out the various things that are going wrong - and then solve the problem with extreme prejudice, because that's what PCs do.
Though not without hiccups.
One of my favorite moments in Wake of the Watcher came from the ranger, failing his reflex save to not be infested by a particular parasite, but passing his dungeoneering check by such a margin that he knew exactly what it was going do him.
After I finished explaining, the ranger immediately turned to the sorceress and stated "blast me."
There are still some classes I would like to see so I would be fine if we got some new ones.
A starspawn would make a better boss for the 5th volume of the AP not the last.
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Funnily enough it is a state of affairs not dissimilar to what you are describing that tends to bring horror gaming fans and old school fans to a table.And yet not every player of Pathfinder is a fan of horror games like Call of Cthulhu.
I was unaware that every player of Pathfinder was a fan of overland hex crawling and kingdom building.
I think it is possible to run a good Mythos campaign with D20, but it would be a very different beast to normal ones. If the whole thing is simply beating monsters up, then why do the Mythos? The whole point is they are so far beyond mortal imagination, with powers so vast, that we can't even comprehend them without going insane. It really isn't the campaign for the God-Wizard who can do anything. I know some folks like being able to reduce the monster to kibble, but there are literally hundreds of monsters designed for just that. Use any of those instead.
I was unaware that every player of Pathfinder was a fan of overland hex crawling and kingdom building.Funnily enough it is a state of affairs not dissimilar to what you are describing that tends to bring horror gaming fans and old school fans to a table.And yet not every player of Pathfinder is a fan of horror games like Call of Cthulhu.
I love both!
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I love both!I was unaware that every player of Pathfinder was a fan of overland hex crawling and kingdom building.Funnily enough it is a state of affairs not dissimilar to what you are describing that tends to bring horror gaming fans and old school fans to a table.And yet not every player of Pathfinder is a fan of horror games like Call of Cthulhu.
You sir, are entitled and I encourage everyone to do so. My point is this. The fact that at first glance, some players do no think that cosmic horror, human futility and the cold uncaring gaze of mad gods isn't their idea of a fun pathfinder adventure should no more prevent there being such adventures, than the fact that some people go..."wandering a bloody forest for days at a time with nothing happening? That doesn't sound very fun" should stop kingmaker having been made.
Elric dealt with cosmic horrors on a regular basis.
He just happened with to deal with them by feeding them to the cosmic horror that happened to be his weapon.
And sure if we were talking about a stormbringer inspired AP that would be cool. But they are specifically looking at doing one inspired by the cthulhu mythos.