Be All That You Can Be! In Adven-n-n-ture Deck 2!

I'm loving those Knights of Kenabra!

At the end of the Second Adventure every character gets 4(or 5) skills feats, I believe! That's so much awesomeness!

A total of 6 skills feats at the end of the 2nd adventure. The difficulty-scale is so weird: But it's a nice addition to the hard basic adventures.

Also: The Forge is my new favorite location. Ever.

So it seems it might be possible to redeem something not in one's hand...

I'm not so sure we should take the fact that we are given a whole bunch of skill feats as a good thing...

My thoughts exactly. I shudder to think of what's on the way.

Hey, that +1 Charisma will totally help Harsk make a Charisma 9 check to avoid burying his hand. Or whatever. <.<

>.>

Good luck!

Unless I'm mistaken, there's some cheese here with replaying scenarios or auto-failing scenarios with Corruption Forge just to close it repeatedly (and redeem boons).

"In certain scenarios, the players get a new support card type: the troop card. In adventure deck 2, your troops are the Knights of Kenabres..."

THERE'S MORE TROOPS SOMEWHERE

:D

Unless I'm mistaken, there's some cheese here with replaying scenarios or auto-failing scenarios with Corruption Forge just to close it repeatedly (and redeem boons).

There'll always be sine kind of cheese RotR had a henchman that gave you a free armor from the box, but in his scenario you had to pass a check after defeating henchmen or they shuffle back in (still defeated, so you get the reward). You can't stop people from doing that sort of stuff of they really want to.

"I'm sure your mother warned you never to drink the blood of a demon, but she's not here right now, so maybe you should consider it" is my favorite official Paizo policy ever.

I'm not so sure we should take the fact that we are given a whole bunch of skill feats as a good thing...

Yup, I was real excited and then I thought "what could possibly need me buffed this much"? Yikes!

Love/hate the Blood Demon.

Something I've been wondering since learning about the whole corruption/redemption thing: How will redemption work in Organized Play, if at all?

Something I've been wondering since learning about the whole corruption/redemption thing: How will redemption work in Organized Play, if at all?

You shall see an answer to that in Adventure 2!

Am I the only one who thought the "Blood of Eustoyriax" could be renamed "Temptation of Orbis"?

I notice that the Army henchmen say if you defeat them them you may immediately close the location, not "attempt to close." Interesting.

When Seelah smites the army of demons down, ain't nobody got time for some Craft check.

Not sure if I am reading that right. So if we encounter an army I would have guessed that each one has to use a different skill and only one if at all could make a combat check... but then both of those armies list combat twice so I guess two players can make a combat check and a third player can attempt a Ranged/Melee check respectively?

Correct.

From this blog post, a few questions spring to mind:

1) "...the enemy army immediately pillages the location deck for any remaining boons before heading off to maraud another open location..."

Is that the real intent of the Armies? Does that mean they should be FAQed to shuffle into "ANOTHER random location" ?

2)Do I correctly understand that the Knights of Kenabres are only ever able to help you with COMBAT check vs. Army? That certainly makes them a lot less epic, because Combat is the only check all characters can account for and be reliably certain they can make it without the Knights; I would think the d6 bonus is intended to make Seelah pass that pesky Stealth check, for example...
Incidentally, if the above is true, that means the Constitution medal is utterly useless until the end of the adventure.

3) The Cohorts: I thought when you banish a Cohort, you're supposed to remove it from the game? Does that mean these cards are supposed to be one-off, kinda like the Genie ally loot in S&S?

Regarding 2): the card says "a check to defeat a barrier that has the Army trait" – this can obviously apply to any check needed. Where do you get Combat check from?

3) The Cohorts: I thought when you banish a Cohort, you're supposed to remove it from the game? Does that mean these cards are supposed to be one-off, kinda like the Genie ally loot in S&S?

The Knights Of Kenabres is not a Cohort card. Apparently Troop is a 4th new, not covored by the rule book, Support type.

2)Do I correctly understand that the Knights of Kenabres are only ever able to help you with COMBAT check vs. Army? That certainly makes them a lot less epic, because Combat is the only check all characters can account for and be reliably certain they can make it without the Knights; I would think the d6 bonus is intended to make Seelah pass that pesky Stealth check, for example...

Incidentally, if the above is true, that means the Constitution medal is utterly useless until the end of the adventure.

Not at all. They help with every check to defeat. Both armies specifically list different skills since not all characters are allowed to make a combat check to defeat the army.

EDIT:

1) "...the enemy army immediately pillages the location deck for any remaining boons before heading off to maraud another open location..."

Is that the real intent of the Armies? Does that mean they should be FAQed to shuffle into "ANOTHER random location" ?

Well I guess they might linger around. Imagine the army is in the last open location.

Both pictured armies do not allow you to attempt to close the location, they simply let you close the location. Therefore the location should be closed under most circumstances anyways...? Beceause why wouldn't you choose to close it and banish all the monsters and barriers except the possible Villain? Will the Temptations be that temptating?

Just wait until you see the scenario rules.

Michael Klaus wrote:

Both pictured armies do not allow you to attempt to close the location, they simply let you close the location. Therefore the location should be closed under most circumstances anyways...? Beceause why wouldn't you choose to close it and banish all the monsters and barriers except the possible Villain? Will the Temptations be that temptating?

Just wait until you see the scenario rules.

I just realized I made a huge error there: If you do not defeat them (and they go pillaging), the location cannot be closed.

Regarding 2): the card says "a check to defeat a barrier that has the Army trait" – this can obviously apply to any check needed. Where do you get Combat check from?

Well, the Knights say "...that uses any of the following skills:" and then proceeds to list the 6 main skills.

And when I look at the armies, I see that except the Combat check, none of the other checks require Strength, Dexterity, etc..

My Stealth skill might be *based* on Dexterity, but to defeat the barrier I'm using my STEALTH skill, not my Dexterity skill.

Longshot11 wrote:

3) The Cohorts: I thought when you banish a Cohort, you're supposed to remove it from the game? Does that mean these cards are supposed to be one-off, kinda like the Genie ally loot in S&S?

The Knights Of Kenabres is not a Cohort card...

I didn't mean the Knights; I meant the Paladin Queen and the Halfling chick.

Longshot11 wrote:

2)Do I correctly understand that the Knights of Kenabres are only ever able to help you with COMBAT check vs. Army? That certainly makes them a lot less epic, because Combat is the only check all characters can account for and be reliably certain they can make it without the Knights; I would think the d6 bonus is intended to make Seelah pass that pesky Stealth check, for example...

Incidentally, if the above is true, that means the Constitution medal is utterly useless until the end of the adventure.

Not at all. They help with every check to defeat. Both armies specifically list different skills since not all characters are allowed to make a combat check to defeat the army.

See my post above; Yes, the Armies list different skills, and none of them are skill that get a bonus from the Knights

Zaister wrote:

Regarding 2): the card says "a check to defeat a barrier that has the Army trait" – this can obviously apply to any check needed. Where do you get Combat check from?

Well, the Knights say "...that uses any of the following skills:" and then proceeds to list the 6 main skills.

And when I look at the armies, I see that except the Combat check, none of the other checks require Strength, Dexterity, etc..

My Stealth skill might be *based* on Dexterity, but to defeat the barrier I'm using my STEALTH skill, not my Dexterity skill.

So, if you have a stealth skill based on dexterity, you are making BOTH a Stealth skill AND a Dexterity skill. If you don't have a stealth skill, it is not based on anything and you are rolling a d4.

So, if you have a stealth skill based on dexterity, you are making BOTH a Stealth skill AND a Dexterity skill. If you don't have a stealth skill, it is not based on anything and you are rolling a d4.

I believe you're wrong. To my understanding of the rules:

You ALWAYS *have* the Stealth skill (and all other secondaries); however, if they're not listed on the char card, they're always d4, and when you use them you're only making a Stealth CHECK for example.

As for your first argument, if you have a listed Stealth and you use it, you're making both Stealth and Dexterity CHECK, but you're *only* using your Stealth SKILL. This distinction is rarely important, but in the case of the Knights it's crucial, due to the way their power is worded: they add to check that use a SKILL, not to a check that has a particular TRAIT.

Incorrect Long shot. Your Stealth SKILL is your Dex SKILL with a bonus, if it's listed under Dex under your card. You most definitely get the Knights' bonus for any "secondary" skill if they are based on the appropriate skill.

It's the same reason Dex feats would add to Stealth checks.

Also, when Bard said "if you don't have a stealth skill", not having one listed is what he meant, not that you can't use it (although if obviously isn't usually a good idea to use in that case)

As for your first argument, if you have a listed Stealth and you use it, you're making both Stealth and Dexterity CHECK, but you're *only* using your Stealth SKILL. This distinction is rarely important, but in the case of the Knights it's crucial, due to the way their power is worded: they add to check that use a SKILL, not to a check that has a particular TRAIT.

First World Bard is correct. Essentially, when you use a skill that references another skill you are using both skills.

The skill you’re using for the check, and any skill referenced by that skill, are added as traits to the check. For example, if your character has the skill Melee: Strength +2, and you are using your Melee skill, both the Strength and the Melee traits are added to the check...

Some cards and powers affect only specific types of checks, such as Dexterity checks, Acrobatics checks, or non-combat checks. If, on your character card, the skill you’re using refers to another skill, both skills count for the purpose of determining the type of check. For example, if you’re using the Arcane skill on a combat check, and your character card says that your Arcane skill is Intelligence +2, the check counts as both a combat Arcane check and a combat Intelligence check. Traits also determine the type of check; for example, if you’re attempting a combat check and you played a weapon that added the Ranged trait, it counts as a Ranged combat check.

Thanks, Andrew; I could have been clearer on how I phrased it, but you got it.

As an example, let's say I'm Adowyn, and am making a Stealth check. If I've got a Troubador in my hand (Recharge to add 1d6 to a non-combat Dexterity or Charisma check), I can use him to roll 1d12 + 1d6 + (2 + any Dexterity feats I've checked off). And the Dexterity Medal would apply, if i've earned it.

But if I were in the unfortunate position of Seelah needing to make a Stealth check, I'd be rolling a 1d4 for Stealth. Now, the Troubador (nor the Dexterity Medal on the Knights) wouldn't work (because a Stealth Check isn't a Dexterity Check for me), but if I had a Burglar (+ 1d10 to Stealth or Disable check) I could use him to roll 1d4 + 1d10.

Edit: Thanks for the rulebook reference, Hawk :)

I am very much looking forward to getting my copy. It seems like it will be a very interesting pack.

I do hope you just started playing,Longshot because if you pk
played by those rules: then a lot of cards seem redundant and a lot of checks just became way harder.

First World Bard is correct. Essentially, when you use a skill that references another skill you are using both skills.

WotR Rulebook p12 wrote:

The skill you’re using for the check, and any skill referenced by that skill, are added as traits to the check. For example, if your character has the skill Melee: Strength +2, and you are using your Melee skill, both the Strength and the Melee traits are added to the check...

Some cards and powers affect only specific types of checks, such as Dexterity checks, Acrobatics checks, or non-combat checks. If, on your character card, the skill you’re using refers to another skill, both skills count for the purpose of determining the type of check. For example, if you’re using the Arcane skill on a combat check, and your character card says that your Arcane skill is Intelligence +2, the check counts as both a combat Arcane check and a combat Intelligence check. Traits also determine the type of check; for example, if you’re attempting a combat check and you played a weapon that added the Ranged trait, it counts as a Ranged combat check.

Bard, Hawk, Andrew, thanks for the input, guys, but I'm afraid I'm having trouble explaining myself. Beside Adowyn being eligible for Dexterity medal, I totally agree with Bard's example above, as written, exactly because of the rules Hawk cited, as quoted. So let me try one more time:

I believe that the Skill used in a check, and that Check's traits are two different things. A used skill is added as Trait to the Check, but a check's Trait does not indicate a used skill (a somewhat far flunged analogy – the fact that you're making a Magic Combat check, does not signify you're using some Magik or Combat skill that is just not listed on your char sheet.

So, let's say Adowyn is trying to beat an Army with Stealth:

- This a Stealth CHECK, *and* a Dexterity CHECK (since Adowyn's Stealth derives from her Dexterity) (Rulebook: "If, on your character card, the skill you’re using refers to another skill, both skills count for the purpose of determining the type of check.")- so, yes, cards that add to a Dex CHECK would apply
- the Check has *both* the Stealth and Dexterity TRAITS (Rulebook: "The skill you’re using for the check, and any skill referenced by that skill, are added as traits to the check")
- the Check *only* uses the Stealth SKILL (Rullebook and cards: all instances, ever, that refer to, for example, Pereception as a single skill, and that don't mention a Perception check to be using *both* the Wisdom *and* the Perception skills)

Alternatively, if Seelah attempted the same:

- This a Stealth CHECK *only*, as the skill is not listed and for Seelah is not derivative of any other Skill)
- the Check has *only* the Stealth TRAIT
- the Check *only* uses the Stealth SKILL (implicitly possessed by *all* characters, albeit with a d4)

As it stands, the Knights don't apply to either character, since the don't boost a Dex CHECK, but a check the uses the Dex SKILL, the same way they wouldn't apply to a hypothetical Illusionist char with a Stealth: Intelligence + 2 Skill

I'm sorry if I come across trying to be contrary, I'll be more than happy to be wrong at this occasion, and at the very least I'll stand corrected about misinterpreting the rules which is a win any way I look it. But in my current understanding of the rules, based on what I read in the manual, this is simply not the case. Please, keep the feedback coming :)

PS: If a Mod swings by, please feel free to split-off this discussion in a separate Rules thread

I do hope you just started playing,Longshot because if you pk

played by those rules: then a lot of cards seem redundant and a lot of checks just became way harder.

As a matter of fact, I haven't. I do pass for the most rules-savvy person among my group, for what it's worth. And I have NEVER (RotR and mid-S&S) come across a card that caused an issue or contradict my interpretation of the rules>

Longshot is saying, if my Stealth is Dexterity + 2, when I use my Stealth skill I am making a Dexterity check, but I am not using my Dexterity skill.

The Knights only affect checks which use the listed skill.

I see his point.

Per Hawkmoon, in my example I am using both my Dexterity skill and my Stealth skill. But do the rules make that clear?

If, on your character card, the skill you’re using refers to another skill, both skills count for the purpose of determining the type of check.

Both skills count towards the type of the check, but you are only using one skill.

Longshot is saying, if my Stealth is Dexterity + 2, when I use my Stealth skill I am making a Dexterity check, but I am not using my Dexterity skill.

The Knights only affect checks which use the listed skill.

Best TL;DR ever! Thanks :)

Longshot is saying, if my Stealth is Dexterity + 2, when I use my Stealth skill I am making a Dexterity check, but I am not using my Dexterity skill.

The Knights only affect checks which use the listed skill.

I see his point.

Per Hawkmoon, in my example I am using both my Dexterity skill and my Stealth skill. But do the rules make that clear?

Wrath Rulebook wrote:

If, on your character card, the skill you’re using refers to another skill, both skills count for the purpose of determining the type of check.

Both skills count towards the type of the check, but you are only using one skill.

It's clear, as given in the example in the next sentence:

For example, if you're using the Stealth skill on a Stealth checks, and your character card says that your Stealth skill is Dexterity +2, the check counts as both a Stealth check and a Dexterity check. In fact, because you have "Stealth: Dexterity +2", it's not possible for you to use the Stealth skill without using the referred Dexterity skill.

We're not saying that in the example it isn't both a Stealth and a Dexterity check. We asking if both skills are being "used".

Does "use" have a technical meaning in PACG, such as "the skill you have selected for this check", or does it have a looser meaning, incorporating skills referred to by the skill you've selected?

I also get what LongShot is saying, just so that's clear.

But the Knights basically give a 1d6 to all your checks corresponding to that you have checked. So if we were to look at Adowyn and Stealth, again, and we were to say that she has the Dexterity bonus: You could see in this way:

Dexterity: d12+d6
Stealth: Dexterity +2

Mind you, this is only for checks against Banes with the Army trait. So, her check to defeat this bane would become:

1d12+1d6+2

What you could even do is, if you have the correct mythic path, is change the d12 to a d20 and add a Blessing of non-Combat Dex and end up with:

3d20+1d12+2

But, you know, that is a longshot to make. *pun intended*

(Disclaimer: These examples are ignoring current skill feats checked off on Dex)

I also get what LongShot is saying, just so that's clear.

But the Knights basically give a 1d6 to all your checks corresponding to that you have checked. So if we were to look at Adowyn and Stealth, again, and we were to say that she has the Dexterity bonus: You could see in this way:

Dexterity: d12+d6
Stealth: Dexterity +2

Mind you, this is only for checks against Banes with the Army trait. So, her check to defeat this bane would become:

1d12+1d6+2

What you could even do is, if you have the correct mythic path, is change the d12 to a d20 and add a Blessing of non-Combat Dex and end up with:

3d20+1d12+2

But, you know, that is a longshot to make. *pun intended*

(Disclaimer: These examples are ignoring current skill feats checked off on Dex)

Nitpick: the +2 dice blessing would go off before the mythic upgrade, so you'd end up with 1d20+2d12+1d6. Mythic only modifies your final die pool, you can't use "multipliers" on the d20.

A skill that refers to another necessarily uses the referred skill. So if you have Stealth as Dexterity +2, all Stealth checks are Dexterity checks, and both Stealth and Dexterity skills are being used.

(Don't go beyond that; if you're adding skills, the added skills aren't being used.)

Donny Schuijers wrote:

I also get what LongShot is saying, just so that's clear.

But the Knights basically give a 1d6 to all your checks corresponding to that you have checked. So if we were to look at Adowyn and Stealth, again, and we were to say that she has the Dexterity bonus: You could see in this way:

Dexterity: d12+d6
Stealth: Dexterity +2

Mind you, this is only for checks against Banes with the Army trait. So, her check to defeat this bane would become:

1d12+1d6+2

What you could even do is, if you have the correct mythic path, is change the d12 to a d20 and add a Blessing of non-Combat Dex and end up with:

3d20+1d12+2

But, you know, that is a longshot to make. *pun intended*

(Disclaimer: These examples are ignoring current skill feats checked off on Dex)

Nitpick: the +2 dice blessing would go off before the mythic upgrade, so you'd end up with 1d20+2d12+1d6. Mythic only modifies your final die pool, you can't use "multipliers" on the d20.

Youre not being nitpicky. Thanks for this. Felt like having multiple d20s with Blessings was strong.

Lets say,though, I have as final pool: 1d10+2d8

Can I then expand two charges for 2d20+d8?

So if you have Stealth as Dexterity +2, all Stealth checks are Dexterity checks, and both Stealth and Dexterity skills are being used.

Where are you getting that from? (I'm not being smart, I'm honestly interested; I guess we both come from the rules quote that Hawk posted above, but I see nothing to indicate that this is the case. Is there a discussion is some other thread perchance?)

I see what you are saying. The only argument I could make is to look at how the idea has progressed over time. The best way to do that might be to look at Glibness. In RotR, Glibness applied to "any check using your Charisma die." In the Class Decks it is to "any check using your Charisma skill." And in WotR it is "to any Charisma check."

What does that tell us? It tells us that those were all to be understood to have the same outcome. The first change was made with the die/skill distinction change. The second change was made to clarify what happens when you "add you Chrisma skill" to a check but aren't "using" your Charisma skill (i.e. it isn't a Charisma check). So, "using your Charimsa skill" and "a Charisma check" are essentially the same thing. And when you "add" a skill you aren't "using" that skill.

Also, look at this old RotR comment by Mike. Now, that was before the die/skill distinction in S&S and before anything could "add" your skill. But I think we can see the intent there too.

And look at this FAQ (and here is the WotR version) which talks about the skills (plural) you are using, supporting the idea you can be using more than one skill at a time.

And look at the S&S Rulebook.

Any skills you use are added as traits to the check. (For example, if your character has the skill Melee: Strength +2, and you use your Melee skill, both the Strength and the Melee trait are added to the check.)

Notice it says "skills" plural and talks about using them and then lays out the Strength is added when you use Melee and have Melee: Strength +2, inferring that you are "using" both skills.

Granted, this becomes less clear in WotR...

The skill you’re using for the check, and any skill referenced by that skill, are added as traits to the check. For example, if your character has the skill Melee: Strength +2, and you are using your Melee skill, both the Strength and the Melee traits are added to the check.

It has switched to talking about 1 skill and you can't make the same argument there.

You are right. Nothing actually says "If the skill you are using references another skill you are using both skills." So in that sense, this card could be confusing. But, given the limitation you pointed out with the interpretation that you are only "using" 1 skill and given the history of the development of the wording on the cards, I think it is clear that the skill referred to by another skill is also being "used".

That is my opinion anyway. I could see where you could read it the other way. But given how I played Strength and similar cards with their S&S wording, I am pretty sure that is correct. Granted, with the distinction between "using" a skill and "adding" a skill we have this weird state where you are using a skill in the sense of applying that skill to the check, but not using it in the more limited sense of defining a check.

The first part comes from the fact that all skills other than the "attribute" skills (Strength, etc) are modifiers to something. Usually it's a referred skill (Stealth: Dexterity +2,) sometimes it's a defined die (Diplomacy: 1d4+0 untrained) (Melee: 1d8 + scenario AD# for Sacred Weapon.)

The second is just an ordinary reading of the "both skills count" line.

Looking at the question from the other side, I believe the intent of the Knights is to add the bonus whenever the listed skill or a skill based on the listed skill is used. Also, it's difficult to see how the Knights power could have been worded to make this clearer.

But as is the wording leaves room for confusion.

That is indeed the intent, and the wording is done that way because it affects skills in an indefinite way. (It's always 1d6, but which checks are affected are not specifically defined in the language itself as it is with, say, the Basic allies.)

"Checks using the Dexterity skill" are "Dexterity checks" - the language is equivalent, but the wording sometimes needs to be different lest it become awkward.

Also, it's difficult to see how the Knights power could have been worded to make this clearer.

Actually, there're at least two way and that's the thing. My biggest red flag that the Knights do not apply to Stealth et al. is an *argument from the contrary*: if it was intended to work with those skills, the card could easily say either of the following:

"a Strength/Dexterity/... check"
or
"a check with the Strength/Dexterity/... trait"

The fact that this is not the language used indicates for me that it specifically wanted to exclude derivative skills. mind you, this is not the first PACG to see the light of day, and as each edition gradually improves wording and gets more attention to detail, I don't believe this can be just an oversight, especially on such gard that's granted to get a lot of exposure.

Youre not being nitpicky. Thanks for this. Felt like having multiple d20s with Blessings was strong.

Lets say,though, I have as final pool: 1d10+2d8

Can I then expand two charges for 2d20+d8?

very much so. Assemble dice pool; expend one or more charges; for each charge, replace your highest non-d20 die with a d20

Actually, there're at least two way and that's the thing. My biggest red flag that the Knights do not apply to Stealth et al. is an *argument from the contrary*: if it was intended to work with those skills, the card could easily say either of the following:

"a Strength/Dexterity/... check"
or
"a check with the Strength/Dexterity/... trait"

The fact that this is not the language used indicates for me that it specifically wanted to exclude derivative skills. mind you, this is not the first PACG to see the light of day, and as each edition gradually improves wording and gets more attention to detail, I don't believe this can be just an oversight, especially on such gard that's granted to get a lot of exposure.

Depends on what they were trying to do - in some cases you can add an additional skill to a check (such as with Poison Flasks, etc. from S&S). In that case as Damiel, could you be considered to be 'using' the Craft(Int) skill, even though the check is a Ranged Combat check because you have added your Craft skill to the check?

I would also note that if the 1d6 doesn't apply to the derivative skills, the Knights of Kenabres do practically nothing. Even in combat checks, most of the time you'll be doing the check with your melee, ranged, arcane or divine skill.

EDIT for spelling.

elcoderdude wrote:

Also, it's difficult to see how the Knights power could have been worded to make this clearer.

Actually, there're at least two way and that's the thing. My biggest red flag that the Knights do not apply to Stealth et al. is an *argument from the contrary*: if it was intended to work with those skills, the card could easily say either of the following:

"a Strength/Dexterity/... check"
or
"a check with the Strength/Dexterity/... trait"

The fact that this is not the language used indicates for me that it specifically wanted to exclude derivative skills. mind you, this is not the first PACG to see the light of day, and as each edition gradually improves wording and gets more attention to detail, I don't believe this can be just an oversight, especially on such gard that's granted to get a lot of exposure.

No, it couldn't, because the language on the Knights card needs to call to the skills linked to the chosen medals, not to any fixed skills - and using the word "trait" to refer to a subskill's parent skill is needlessly unclear. Therefore, it's worded "a check to defeat barriers with the Army trait that uses one of the following checked skills."

"A @ check" is the same as "a check that uses the @ skill".

Subskills use their parent skill. Therefore, Knights works as written.