Round 2 is Coming

The size for the map is jarring with my usual sense of metric measurements. It is so very close to a standard A4 page, and yet not there. How much easier sketching would be. I guess I can spend some preparation time adjusting sketching paper sizes.

Can't help thinking of the map as not just a location, but a location in some sort of situation, with something dynamic to the style. Difficult to put in clear 2 dimensional mapping.

How would adding side views or in other ways different perspectives on the same location conform to the contest rules? I can imagine a number of situations where it would substantially increase clarity and several of the published maps does use such techniques.

And how about (if one chooses to add it) the legend for the map (^ = mountain, green circle = tree, etc)? Does that go into the dimensions or separate?

Others have asked about title and brief descriptive text, so I'll just add that I'm curious to see what the rules will say for those points as well.

All in all, interesting round.

Unlike many, who worry about artistic talent being weighed too highly, I kind of worry about getting carried away artistically, to begin adding all manner of touches that would not assist the clarity but only the appearance or realism. Going too far in any direction seems... well, risky.

I think the map should at least have a title, or an indication as to where the mapped area is located.

Wrote a blog thing on this...

Thank you Garrett. I found your blog to be informative, and the link to Joshua Frost's Paizo blog to be invaluable. I know because I took a look at the map I was doodling and instantly realized several ways it could be improved.

Will there be any space for explanatory text? Like "illumination is provided by barred windows 15 feet up," or "The city's gate is constructed from a single slab of granite," etc.?

Will there be any space for explanatory text? Like "illumination is provided by barred windows 15 feet up," or "The city's gate is constructed from a single slab of granite," etc.?

I'm also curious whether you can include some text with it as well.

Maybe this is a dumb question... but is it better to fill the page to the edge or leave a margin?

Maybe this is a dumb question... but is it better to fill the page to the edge or leave a margin?

Visualizing it in my head, I think having a .25" Margins from side to side and .5" margins on the top and bottom would allow for a solid 8 x 10 grid on your paper. You could also use .25" of the bottom margin to add a key or distance gauge.

I think full-bleeding the image would make it look funky and force you to cover some of the map with your legend. But that's just me.

DQ -- I'd probably want a small margin (by which I mean two or three squares), but I think if you really have to use every single square you've got, you'll be OK.

Garrett -- great blog post. I'd definitely recommend reading it, though there doesn't seem to be anywhere to comment on it that I could tell. I agree location maps are probably going to be the best option, though I think honestly, I'd probably have lumped single-building maps into that category. Your point that that may not be enough for Superstar voters is certainly a concern.

I think I'd be wary of using a more than 5-foot grid. Previous judges have warned to be wary of that, because it makes transferring to a battlemap a little more difficult. It's not verboten -- I think the Reign of Winter map I just finished up in my PBP game had 10-foot squares -- but I'd make sure you really do need it.

DeathQuaker wrote:

Maybe this is a dumb question... but is it better to fill the page to the edge or leave a margin?

Visualizing it in my head, I think having a .25" Margins from side to side and .5" margins on the top and bottom would allow for a solid 8 x 10 grid on your paper. You could also use .25" of the bottom margin to add a key or distance gauge.

I think full-bleeding the image would make it look funky and force you to cover some of the map with your legend. But that's just me.

/puts on semi-pro freelancer hat

(well, rather, I have no Big Name Credits yet, thus I'm still qualified for this contest. Still...)

You absolutely do not want to full bleed. It's bad for cartographers, it's bad for your map (can lead to confusion as to where walls are), in print it can lead to bits of your map getting cut off in production... don't do it unless you literally have no other choice.

If it is a tactical map, I would agree full bleed is a mistake. But if it is a regional map you can get away with it as long as the important locations are well back from the edges.

If it is a tactical map, I would agree full bleed is a mistake. But if it is a regional map you can get away with it as long as the important locations are well back from the edges.

HYPERBOLE THEATRE PRESENTS: FULL BLEED - A TALE OF MAP-INDUCED DISASTER

"Castle Peri?"

"Sounds innocuous enough. Let's go there. Maybe meet some nice aasimar emberkin."

*screenwipe*

"AUGH! THE PERIL! THIS CASTLE IS SO PERILOUS!"

"I KNOW! THERE AREN'T ANY PERI HERE AT ALL!"

"WHY WASN'T THE MAP FOUR CHARACTERS WIDER!? AUGGGHHHH!!!"

*whining, running, expiring*

*curtain*

Brigg wrote:

DeathQuaker wrote:

Maybe this is a dumb question... but is it better to fill the page to the edge or leave a margin?

Visualizing it in my head, I think having a .25" Margins from side to side and .5" margins on the top and bottom would allow for a solid 8 x 10 grid on your paper. You could also use .25" of the bottom margin to add a key or distance gauge.

I think full-bleeding the image would make it look funky and force you to cover some of the map with your legend. But that's just me.

/puts on semi-pro freelancer hat

(well, rather, I have no Big Name Credits yet, thus I'm still qualified for this contest. Still...)

You absolutely do not want to full bleed. It's bad for cartographers, it's bad for your map (can lead to confusion as to where walls are), in print it can lead to bits of your map getting cut off in production... don't do it unless you literally have no other choice.

The bits of your map getting cut off in production would be a problem if you were the cartographer (i.e., this is the final production art that is going in the book, not a rough guide for the pro to draw the final). But yes, I had a feeling that would still be desirable--actually, come to think of it, you wouldn't have to make the cartographer adjust to have to make a margin later.

I knew it was a stupid question. But thank you.

TealDeer wrote:

Brigg wrote:

DeathQuaker wrote:

Maybe this is a dumb question... but is it better to fill the page to the edge or leave a margin?

Visualizing it in my head, I think having a .25" Margins from side to side and .5" margins on the top and bottom would allow for a solid 8 x 10 grid on your paper. You could also use .25" of the bottom margin to add a key or distance gauge.

I think full-bleeding the image would make it look funky and force you to cover some of the map with your legend. But that's just me.

/puts on semi-pro freelancer hat

(well, rather, I have no Big Name Credits yet, thus I'm still qualified for this contest. Still...)

You absolutely do not want to full bleed. It's bad for cartographers, it's bad for your map (can lead to confusion as to where walls are), in print it can lead to bits of your map getting cut off in production... don't do it unless you literally have no other choice.

The bits of your map getting cut off in production would be a problem if you were the cartographer (i.e., this is the final production art that is going in the book, not a rough guide for the pro to draw the final). But yes, I had a feeling that would still be desirable--actually, come to think of it, you wouldn't have to make the cartographer adjust to have to make a margin later.

I knew it was a stupid question. But thank you.

It’s good design practice to keep your focal point relatively centered, with nothing too important on the outer sides of your map. If you do have something important there, then consider adjusting the rotation of your map.

The cartographer, and possibly someone in layout, would probably add design elements like a title and page number over the final version of the map. This won’t really impact your design, unless you have something important on the edge.

I’m quite excited for this round. Off to explore Golarion.

HYPERBOLE THEATRE PRESENTS: FULL BLEED - A TALE OF MAP-INDUCED DISASTER

"Castle Peri?"

"Sounds innocuous enough. Let's go there. Maybe meet some nice aasimar emberkin."

*screenwipe*

"AUGH! THE PERIL! THIS CASTLE IS SO PERILOUS!"

"I KNOW! THERE AREN'T ANY PERI HERE AT ALL!"

"WHY WASN'T THE MAP FOUR CHARACTERS WIDER!? AUGGGHHHH!!!"

*whining, running, expiring*

*curtain*

Bravo, bravo, excellent!

Every map sketch I've turned out has been full bleed. It's possible I'm doing it wrong, but I trust the cartographer and layout team to make the map fit the space.

That being said, I'll also always draw on as big of a sheet as I can and then tag it for full page, half page or whatever, because I am not a professional artist... Just make sure that details won't be lost in translation.

I agree location maps are probably going to be the best option, though I think honestly, I'd probably have lumped single-building maps into that category. Your point that that may not be enough for Superstar voters is certainly a concern.

I didn't define a location map, which hurt my point. I think the level of context distinguishes a location map from a single-building map.

A designer can give you a great map of a house on a grid—walls, furniture, a few features, some cool conceit to make it unique—and it could be great freelance turnover, especially if it's in the context of a specific encounter or plot.

Without that context, you just have walls, furniture, cool features, a neat trick—and no story. The map then lives or dies on whatever makes those rooms unique. You can still make great work of this type with some fantastic execution, like in Tim Hitchcock's example, but I'd worry that alone wouldn't be enough to inspire voters.

Maybe I'm reading too much into what Owen's saying when he advises against submitting just a room with a door or just a forest with a path, but I think some of the things that make for good freelance map turnover in the context of an adventure—or even a good map in the context of a Superstar encounter entry—aren't necessarily traits of a good Round 2 entry since Round 2 operates in a relative story vacuum.

A Round 2 map has to provide that context on its own without sacrificing clarity; I'd even argue that it should be capable of laying down the framework of a story from start to finish. I think it's a missed opportunity as a prospective designer to map one well-made floor of a building, label it, put a legend and scale and compass on it, and then stop, even if the result is a good freelance turnover.

(Unless the rules narrow the options or provide context, or a template to fill in, or even require building on a specific Map Pack tile or Flip-Mat, and much of my rambling becomes a little more moot.)

I think I'd be wary of using a more than 5-foot grid. Previous judges have warned to be wary of that, because it makes transferring to a battlemap a little more difficult. It's not verboten -- I think the Reign of Winter map I just finished up in my PBP game had 10-foot squares -- but I'd make sure you really do need it.

Agreed. Specifically, I'd stay flexible about larger-scale grids and map viewpoints as long as broader and non-combat maps are options.

As long as the grid's necessary, the scale's clearly noted and a multiple of 5 feet, and granular location tracking isn't a priority, a larger-scale grid might be worth the risk to keep the map clean and readable at that size and resolution.

Now I really want to see that map from Divinity Drive, but I can't buy the PDF for a week.

The map idea I'm sketching out right now would require a grid larger than 5 because the area is at least 200-400 feet long. It's definitely more of a location with multiple encounter areas which I'm not mapping out in fine detail. It's more similar to the Glimmerhold map than Foxglove manner in terms of scale, although it's not a side view, and would probably use 10 or 20 foot squares instead of 50.

If I wanted to do ~400 feet, and used 5 foot squares, that would give me squares that are slightly larger than 1/8 of an inch (or almost exactly 3.5 mm). Is that too small of a square? I feel like all those lines would clutter up the image, and I would be better served with a larger grid. Or perhaps my idea just isn't right for this round (but I don't think I can get it out of my head at this point).

Looking at the map of Thistletop, it's about the size I need, and it's not too cluttered. So perhaps 5 foot squares isn't so bad.

Also in regards to the earlier post complaining that "but I don't know Golarion!"

I don't know Golarion either. I've played in that setting a grand total of once -- some kind of snake temple, I was a half-orc savage skald from some northish icy place or other, I had to bail everyone out bc somehow this party kept getting killed.

But, as a budding freelance editor, layout designer, and writer, I can tell you that one of the things you HAVE to do as a freelancer is very quickly adapt to the home campaign setting of whoever you're working for. As an editor, you have to know the proper spellings of blah blah continent and whosiwatsy the Grand Poobah. As a writer you MUST know that THIS place is the vaguely middle eastern themed desert land and THAT ONE is the German gothic spot. You COULD put a German Gothic castle in the desert land but by god you need a kickass reason (The more I think about it the more weirdly cool that juxtaposition is but man you'd better have a good reason)

That goes beyond tabletop RPGs and into... I mean basically everything you do. Every company you work for, even if you're not working with their IP, is going to have different practices, different styles, different expectations on turnaround time. Some companies give you a bunch of material to read and a nice long month (of... not getting paid >>; ) to do it in. Others go "Kk I need you to edit 100 pages by tomorrow, sound good?" and you gotta figure out, on your own, that this character is in fact female and that the author accidentally using the wrong pronouns is just them being bad at grammar (TRUE STORY. Could NOT figure out character's gender till page 3 on a novel editing job, realized that it was bc author just was bad at using pronouns in general & this wasn't a genderqueer character or a magical gender-changing character).

So yeah. Tight deadlines, abrupt changes in what the author wants ("hey I know you just spent 12 hours working at what came out to $4 an hour on this print layout but I forgot to tell you that we need a hyperlinked digital version too can you do that?"), suddenly needing to absorb vast amounts of information... that's just freelancing.

a very well articulated statement

Perfectly said. This contest is 20% making quality material, and 80% making quality material under inconvenient circumstances... because that's just how the industry is.

The Official Round 2 Rules are up.

Is it just me, or is anyone else not able to get the round 2 rules to load? I've tried Owen's link as well as the one on the main RPG Superstar page.

Joel: they've been sort of hiccupy for me, but I did get them to load eventually. In case anyone else is having trouble seeing them:

They loaded for me from Owen's link above. There's some FAQ stuff at the top, then the full rules a bit further down.

Argh, Friday. Jeebus. D:

It's a tight, tight, tight deadline for people who inevitably have things like jobs, social commitments, and all the distractions of life.
That's intentional.
I am really excited to see what we get from folks!

On the off chance I got into the top 32, I decided to purchase a secret weapon this year.

I'm really looking forward to all the maps! Those un-keyed maps were a favorite feature when I used to read "Dungeon" magazine. Good luck, you top 32ers!

I'm not a judge in this round, obviously (a voter, but not a judge), but I'll tell you what I'm personally looking for- I'm looking for something off the wall. Just based on my pre-planning in case I somehow made it to the next round, I know there are a ton of interesting places on Golarion that are mentioned in the various products that would make for some cool locations to map, but some of the most interesting and bizarre ideas I had are things that I haven't ever seen tackled before, period (okay, really just two ideas I had, one a holdover from last year), but if someone were to do something like that- that would be my top pick for sure.

I would be very surprised if at least one of the places I was considering didn't get picked up by someone in the top 32+4 though. I'd actually be almost disappointed if it didn't.

Honestly, I have absolutely no clue what I'm looking for in a map just on it's own. It's quite possible that I won't vote for anything, since just a map doesn't resonate with me very well.

That being said, I won't be shocked if a few of the entries surprise me and I vote for them.

a previously unmapped fantasy-themed location in Golarion

So as someone who is only a casual visitor to Golarion, what HAS been mapped already?

Because I master the [redacted] adventure path, I have the softcover books at home. It was simple to compare the Guide to [redacted] locations with the actual softcover books of the AP in order to see if my Golarion-specific location had been used as an encounter in the adventure path.

It wasn't, so I used the location's (brief) description to orient my map making session.

Yes, you kinda need the content books in order to make sure that what you're mapping hasn't already been done if you want to go along with the restrictions. For instance, I firmly believe that mapping Rise of the Runelords' Sandpoint or Thistletop would be folly and grounds for disqualification.