Advanced Class Guide Preview: Arcanist

While we're on the topic I have to say I'm not a huge fan of the extra spell FCB for spontaneous casters since it's only an option for ~4 (Human, half-elf, gillman, samsaran?) races.

It's a fantastic addition and a big help for those classes, but it really limits the range of races in the spontaneous casters I see in play.

Agreed. "Must haves" are bad.

Ross Byers wrote:

Squirrel_Dude wrote:

Would Mage Hand work for holding up the book, so that you would then only need one hand to turn the page? Could Unseen Servant hold the book and turn the pages for you.

Yes, but it's still a full round action.

In my personal experience playing a wizard, and gming for one, I'd would have love to have been able to spend a full round action to get a useful spell next round, instead of spending the rest of the battle doing nothing/firing a crossbow. Hell, the wizard I gmed for had a macro(we play online with maptools) that just stated he was "drinking tea" instead of doing anything useful, and this was in Kingmaker so running out of spells was never the problem.

I maintain my position that, since it must be a spell already in the spellbook, and wizards and arcanists get Scribe Scroll for free, that you could already have any potentially useful spell available for the cost of an action, without Quick Study.

How about this, changing the topic from Quick Study. A lot of the hostile spell effects adventurers encounter are actually spell-like abilities of monsters, rather than proper spells. Would those trigger Suffering Knowledge?

But dont you have to pay the costs for a scroll? And even having the time, money and forethought about which scroll to create, this is a definete step up from that.

How about this, changing the topic from Quick Study. A lot of the hostile spell effects adventurers encounter are actually spell-like abilities of monsters, rather than proper spells. Would those trigger Suffering Knowledge?

That is a good question. It is important to know if spell-like abilities can work with Suffering Knowledge so we might Mega Man them for a bit.

Also, if a arcanist is hit by a spell, so that they temporarily know and have it memorized, can they then scribe it on a scroll or write it down in their spellbook in order to be able to permanently learn it?

How about this, changing the topic from Quick Study. A lot of the hostile spell effects adventurers encounter are actually spell-like abilities of monsters, rather than proper spells. Would those trigger Suffering Knowledge?

Of course they would... Have you not been paying attention? Arcanists get to do all the cool stuff! All of it!

I maintain my position that, since it must be a spell already in the spellbook, and wizards and arcanists get Scribe Scroll for free, that you could already have any potentially useful spell available for the cost of an action, without Quick Study.

Ignoring the cost(which, admittedly, is pretty darn ignorable), the amount of spells in the game, that could be useful in at any given moment, means you either need a lot of system master, foresight or a combination of the two to make that useful. Quick Study means you can always have access to any spell you know when you need it, as long as you have points. And combining that with back up scrolls, only makes you all the more effective. Is it broken... I don't know. I just think that the argument that a full round action completely neuters it in battle(not even getting into its usefulness out of battle, where it just get better), is kind of silly.

How about this, changing the topic from Quick Study. A lot of the hostile spell effects adventurers encounter are actually spell-like abilities of monsters, rather than proper spells. Would those trigger Suffering Knowledge?

My love of blue mage says yes, the fact that SLAs aren't really spells or something, says no. I mean, what would happen if absorbed a SLA that differently then the spell does normally? Can you cast it like the monster does, or as normal?

It can do much of what a sorcerer can do...

Except for you know, when you compare the total number of spell slots per day.

8th level sorcerer: 6/6/5/3
8th level arcanist: 4/4/4/2

....

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Too many people assume a 15 minute adventuring day when complaining about casters.

Ross Byers wrote:

Squirrel_Dude wrote:

Would Mage Hand work for holding up the book, so that you would then only need one hand to turn the page? Could Unseen Servant hold the book and turn the pages for you.

Yes, but it's still a full round action.

In my personal experience playing a wizard, and gming for one, I'd would have love to have been able to spend a full round action to get a useful spell next round, instead of spending the rest of the battle doing nothing/firing a crossbow. Hell, the wizard I gmed for had a macro(we play online with maptools) that just stated he was "drinking tea" instead of doing anything useful, and this was in Kingmaker so running out of spells was never the problem.

But this part of the Price magic dudes pay the little minor weakness that is that some times they dont have the rigth instrument for the job. Getting rid of that weakness is not that great for the overall gameplay i Think. Even if it May take away the few times where a High level caster need his Martial friends.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

It can do much of what a sorcerer can do...

Except for you know, when you compare the total number of spell slots per day.

8th level sorcerer: 6/6/5/3
8th level arcanist: 4/4/4/2

....

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Too many people assume a 15 minute adventuring day when complaining about casters.

Agreed. I'll tell you right now that in PFS I often ran dangerously close to running out of spells on my sorcerer. I also has a GM who likes sending 10+ combats at us in a day. I'm not sure that I would want to deal with the reduced spells per day that the arcanist has.

the amount of spells in the game, that could be useful in at any given moment, means you either need a lot of system master, foresight or a combination of the two to make that useful.

You could say the same thing about having spells in your spell book in the first place.

I still want to know why suffering knowledge only works on spells cast by enemies.

Ross' question about SLAs is another good one for this exploit.

I still want to know why suffering knowledge only works on spells cast by enemies.

Ross' question about SLAs is another good one for this exploit.

Well, ensuring that party members maintain a "frenemy-like" or antagonistic relationship will provide lots of fertile ground for roleplaying. =p

(It'd be nice if designers could try to avoid given spells intelligence and the capability to determine who is an enemy and who isn't. Otherwise, you can turn them into detection spells, or the word enemy/ally can cause additional confusion as to who is affected by a spell unless the designer is extra careful.)

Ross Byers wrote:

I maintain my position that, since it must be a spell already in the spellbook, and wizards and arcanists get Scribe Scroll for free, that you could already have any potentially useful spell available for the cost of an action, without Quick Study.

Ignoring the cost(which, admittedly, is pretty darn ignorable), the amount of spells in the game, that could be useful in at any given moment, means you either need a lot of system master, foresight or a combination of the two to make that useful. Quick Study means you can always have access to any spell you know when you need it, as long as you have points. And combining that with back up scrolls, only makes you all the more effective. Is it broken... I don't know. I just think that the argument that a full round action completely neuters it in battle(not even getting into its usefulness out of battle, where it just get better), is kind of silly.

Quote:

How about this, changing the topic from Quick Study. A lot of the hostile spell effects adventurers encounter are actually spell-like abilities of monsters, rather than proper spells. Would those trigger Suffering Knowledge?

My love of blue mage says yes, the fact that SLAs aren't really spells or something, says no. I mean, what would happen if absorbed a SLA that differently then the spell does normally? Can you cast it like the monster does, or as normal?

If you absorbed a SLA i would assume you spend points to recreate the effect as its own action that is different from casting a spell. Possibly mimicking the original caster level and save DC for extra coolness and ease of book keeping. Assume it would be not learning the actual SLA but rather using your arcane powers to just mimic the same magical effect you were exposed to.

Artanthos wrote:

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

It can do much of what a sorcerer can do...

Except for you know, when you compare the total number of spell slots per day.

8th level sorcerer: 6/6/5/3
8th level arcanist: 4/4/4/2

....

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Too many people assume a 15 minute adventuring day when complaining about casters.

Agreed. I'll tell you right now that in PFS I often ran dangerously close to running out of spells on my sorcerer. I also has a GM who likes sending 10+ combats at us in a day. I'm not sure that I would want to deal with the reduced spells per day that the arcanist has.

10 combats? Are your characters leveling up every other day or something?

10 combat encounters, assuming an average CR = APL, would mean that your characters would be receiving enough experience to reach the next level every two days.

• Level 1 - Level 2: 2000 XP. 10 CR 1 encounters = 1000 XP
  
• Level 2 - Level 3: 3000 XP. 10 CR 2 encounters = 1500 XP
  
• Level 3 - Level 4: 4000 XP. 10 CR 3 encounters = 2000 XP
  
• Level 4 - Level 5: etc. etc. etc.

So, yes, even though those days would be tough (especially the first week or so), it would probably be worth it as a character. Spend 14 days in a place, come out 7 levels stronger seems like a pretty good deal.

Also, the 15 minute adventuring day is something of an overblown need for casters to be able to cycle. Although casters can eventually enforce it (level 5 or so with rope trick), it's not necessary. Normally the party will simply say, "Man, our cleric/arcanist/druid/sorcerer are out of spells? Unless we really need to do something, we should probably just rest now."

All the caster really needs to stay ready/active with spells, if for the rest of the party to not be complete a@%+++~s who don't mind letting the casters not be able to participate for the next hour or two.

I still want to know why suffering knowledge only works on spells cast by enemies.

It is called "Suffering" Knowledge, and not "Kill Them With Kindness".

I assume it's more to do with the default assumptions behind the exploit- that the caster learns from the adversity inflicted upon him by his enemies. Persumably the alternative either has an exploit of its own, or wasn't considered as an option. Seems that you could probably houserule it.

For all those people who screamed "Cheese!" for hours on end at Paragon Surge + Expanded Arcana, well, that option is now part of arcanist core. Yay.

I pride myself on not banning anything from my games, but if there was ever something I did ban, the arcanist would be it. It now completely takes a dump on the two best classes in the game, and that's a bad sign.

In actual play I am sure it is not any better than a wizard, and a good player with a sorcerer will still outperform it.

Ross Byers wrote:

Tels wrote:

It won't be until middle levels, sure, but a Glove of Storing just became the item for an Arcanist to use. Free Action retrieve spell-book *Quick Study* free action store spell-book.

Still requires you not to be holding anything you can't just drop: Quick Study requires being able to reference the book, not just touching it, so you need both hands to turn pages.

Wait... You only have to be able to reference the book right?

*lightbulb*

Would Mage Hand work for holding up the book, so that you would then only need one hand to turn the page? Could Unseen Servant hold the book and turn the pages for you. Is there a way for Arcanists to get a familiar, like an Imp who could turn invisible to keep the book safe, to hold the book for them?

A whole new world of possibilities just opened up in my mind.

At higher levels true seeing is easy to get and automatic on some monsters. So is blindsight.

At lower levels a dispel magic takes care of mage hand and invisible servant assuming you have them up in combat for some reason. Both also mean the book is out in the open, and you dont want that spellbook out in the open, and that is before you get a GM who makes up a reason to get the spellbook that is stored away in your handy haversack.

JoelF847 wrote:

I still want to know why suffering knowledge only works on spells cast by enemies.

It is called "Suffering" Knowledge, and not "Kill Them With Kindness".

I assume it's more to do with the default assumptions behind the exploit- that the caster learns from the adversity inflicted upon him by his enemies. Persumably the alternative either has an exploit of its own, or wasn't considered as an option. Seems that you could probably houserule it.

Yup, and it only works if you fail your saving throw - which you could easily do (even choose to do) if an ally cast a spell on you so you'd have access to it. Not saying it would come up often, but it could be useful.

Artanthos wrote:

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

It can do much of what a sorcerer can do...

Except for you know, when you compare the total number of spell slots per day.

8th level sorcerer: 6/6/5/3
8th level arcanist: 4/4/4/2

....

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Too many people assume a 15 minute adventuring day when complaining about casters.

Agreed. I'll tell you right now that in PFS I often ran dangerously close to running out of spells on my sorcerer. I also has a GM who likes sending 10+ combats at us in a day. I'm not sure that I would want to deal with the reduced spells per day that the arcanist has.

Lower level casters burn through spells faster so I think a lower level arcanist will suffer, but around level 7 that stops being a problem if I am playing or GM'ing. I want to know how they will hold up between 7 and 12.

I still want to know why suffering knowledge only works on spells cast by enemies.

Ross' question about SLAs is another good one for this exploit.

I am assuming for balance reasons. Every bonus(ability) adds up.

I also like the SLA question.

directed at anyone reading-->Some spells such as Flesh to Stone can take a caster out of the fight, and some can greatly hamper him so I wonder how good this will be in actual play.

PS: If I misread the ability feel free to correct me

With some of the discussion in this thread regarding the quick study exploit, don't Arcanists already get Paragon Surge making the whole thing kind of moot?

Stark_ wrote:

For all those people who screamed "Cheese!" for hours on end at Paragon Surge + Expanded Arcana, well, that option is now part of arcanist core. Yay.

Um, no? Paragon Surge + Expanded Arcana lets you learn ANY sorcerer spell, or even two if you want lower level spells. An arcanist with Quick Study still has to know the spell to switch it out with one she has prapared. So unless her spell book has every single wizard spell in the game, it's not the same.

Although I was being slightly rhetorical, it is in fact very close to the same thing. The costs for scribing spells are very low (see blessed book), and it's very easy for a wizard or arcanist to maintain a spellbook with all relevant and useful spells of levels they can cast. So yes, it serves the same function of allowing the arcanist to, as a standard action, gain access to a wide variety of utility spells that would normally be questionable as a slot prepared/spell known. This was previously one of the biggest strengths of the sorcerer over the wizard, and it's a bit worrisome to see the arcanist one-up both classes so thoroughly.

With some of the discussion in this thread regarding the quick study exploit, don't Arcanists already get Paragon Surge making the whole thing kind of moot?

It's not exactly the same. Paragon Surge + Expanded Arcana on an Arcanist adds to its number of spells prepared as of the last playtest, which the arcanist can then, unless I'm mistaken, fill that slot like a wizard in 15 minutes. The difference between a standard action and 15 minutes is fairly significant, and there's also the fact that this is useless before 16th level or without extend spell, due to paragon surge's duration. So no, it's not quite moot.

Cthulhudrew wrote:

JoelF847 wrote:

I still want to know why suffering knowledge only works on spells cast by enemies.

It is called "Suffering" Knowledge, and not "Kill Them With Kindness".

I assume it's more to do with the default assumptions behind the exploit- that the caster learns from the adversity inflicted upon him by his enemies. Persumably the alternative either has an exploit of its own, or wasn't considered as an option. Seems that you could probably houserule it.

Yup, and it only works if you fail your saving throw - which you could easily do (even choose to do) if an ally cast a spell on you so you'd have access to it. Not saying it would come up often, but it could be useful.

I don't see much point in having Suffering Knowledge work with spells cast by allies. Even if it was allowed, the end result would be an ally with one less spell and the arcanist with one more spell. Instead of casting the spell on the arcanist, the ally could have just cast it on the enemy.

My bad, I meant Expanded Arcana and Bloodline Arcana...

Too many Arcana-named feats and features. Mixed them up. :P

Paragon Surge + Expanded Arcana?

Also cool if you are a Gnome (or any race) and carry scrolls with Paragon Surge. Max out UMD and skill focus UMD and emulate race. Awesome. Thanks for the information.

So what is this about Eldritch Heritage and Bloodline arcana? Anyone can explain that to me as well?

Finally why are people talking about the Blue mage? Is that from a book or something?

Lemmy wrote:

My bad, I meant Expanded Arcana and Bloodline Arcana...

Too many Arcana-named feats and features. Mixed them up. :P

Paragon Surge + Expanded Arcana?

Wait do you mean? ....Jesus I newer thought about that combination!
That is fantastic.

Also cool if you are a Gnome (or any race) and carry scrolls with Paragon Surge. Max out UMD and skill focus UMD and emulate race. Awesome. Thanks for the information.

So what is this about Eldritch Heritage and Bloodline arcana? Anyone can explain that to me as well?

Finally why are people talking about the Blue mage? Is that from a book or something?

Try Skill Focus (Knowledge), Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) then Paragon Surge + Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane - New Arcana) while playing an Oracle. Spontaneous access to Sorcerer/Wizard List and you can use Expanded Arcana for spontaneous access to the Oracle list. Cast everything!

Blue Mage was basically someone who could learn magic by having people cast spells on them. Say you just hit 7th level as a Wizard and you don't know a spell like... Black Tentacles. If an Enemy Caster used Black Tentacles on you, you would be able to learn, then cast Black Tentacles back on them.

Try Skill Focus (Knowledge), Eldritch Heritage (Arcane) then Paragon Surge + Improved Eldritch Heritage (Arcane - New Arcana) while playing an Oracle. Spontaneous access to Sorcerer/Wizard List and you can use Expanded Arcana for spontaneous access to the Oracle list. Cast everything!

I never thought of that. I hope the Devs kill that loop hole.

Blue Mage was basically someone who could learn magic by having people cast spells on them. Say you just hit 7th level as a Wizard and you don't know a spell like... Black Tentacles. If an Enemy Caster used Black Tentacles on you, you would be able to learn, then cast Black Tentacles back on them.

Ah, now I see. Thanks for the info.

I never thought of that. I hope the Devs kill that loop hole.

It has been around for a long time now and has been pointed out several times to no effect.

There's even a guide to it!

That said, I've yet to meet a GM who allows Paragon Surge-->any spell in home games. It's typically banned before the game even starts (if the GM is aware of the potential) or immediately in-game when it is first used.

Is Paragon Surge on the allowed list for PFS?

There's even a guide to it!

That said, I've yet to meet a GM who allows Paragon Surge-->any spell in home games. It's typically banned before the game even starts (if the GM is aware of the potential) or immediately in-game when it is first used.

Is Paragon Surge on the allowed list for PFS?

Yes, it is legal for play.

all half-elven equipment, magic items, and spells are legal for play;

With Paragon Surge + Expanded Arcana and don't see Quick Study as much of a problem.
In fact I think that gnomes and Half-orcs should have a similar spell. Or at last be able to pick more spells known as a favored class option, or perhaps both. Anyway, they can at least have some scrolls with Paragon Surge and max out UMD :)

But the Paragon Surge + Improved Eldritch Heritage loop hole is bad.
I fact, I hope the Arcanist is prohibited from taking the Eldritch Heritage feats.

Paragon Surge is a bit of a paradox for me:

If the Expanded Arcana option is intended and they added the spell to give spontaneous casters extra versatility, restricting it only to half-elves is extremely detrimental. If Paragon Surge is meant to be the utility spell that "unlocks" the spell list for spontaneous casters then any race should be able to cast it.

If the Expanded Arcana option is not intended, then leaving it unchanged and not voicing an opinion on it seems equally detrimental, since as long as they leave it unchanged there is a massive unintended mechanical advantage to playing half-elf over the other races.

In my experience high level spontaneous casters adore Paragon Surge - even if you ignore Expanded Arcana and Eldritch Heritage the OOC potential is staggering.

Paragon Surge is a bit of a paradox for me:

If the Expanded Arcana option is intended and they added the spell to give spontaneous casters extra versatility, restricting it only to half-elves is extremely detrimental. If Paragon Surge is meant to be the utility spell that "unlocks" the spell list for spontaneous casters then any race should be able to cast it.

Agree. Espcialy since half-elves, unlike Gnomes and Haflings, can pick extra spells known as a favored class option.

I also think the Expanded Arcana feat is weak since sorcerers get new spell levels add even levels, but get their feats at odd levels.

If the Expanded Arcana option is not intended, then leaving it unchanged and not voicing an opinion on it seems equally detrimental, since as long as they leave it unchanged there is a massive unintended mechanical advantage to playing half-elf over the other races.

This is also true, but I'm pretty sure the option was intended.

In my experience high level spontaneous casters adore Paragon Surge - even if you ignore Expanded Arcana and Eldritch Heritage the OOC potential is staggering.

I don't know about that. It never happened at our table, but then we aren’t that good at/or don’t focus on system mastery, at least not my friends.

I think a lot of players focus more on flavor and would rather play a Gnome, Human, Half-orc, or whatever, than pick a race based on a spell.

This is also true, but I'm pretty sure the option was intended

I am pretty certain it isn't. I wrote the Guide to Paragon Surge some time ago and also raised it in the ask James Jacobs thread several times. The impact of it seemed to come as a surprise to him.

Made a post in Mark's AMA on Paragon Surge, looking forward to reading the answer. :)

burning a spell to gain access to at most two spells doesn't seem so awesome to me. Useful, I'll grant, but not game breaking. additionally, you would have to either A) be a half-elf, or B) have access to a half-elf that has the spell and is willing to teach it to you. I know a lot of people in their theorycraft handwave that kind of restriction away, but at the game table it should be something that GMs use to help design adventures (I.e. the party wizard wants to learn paragon surge, so he has to find someone who can cast it, and they demand services for sharing the knowledge). But I'm probably flogging a dead horse on this topic.

burning a spell to gain access to at most two spells doesn't seem so awesome to me. Useful, I'll grant, but not game breaking. additionally, you would have to either A) be a half-elf, or B) have access to a half-elf that has the spell and is willing to teach it to you. I know a lot of people in their theorycraft handwave that kind of restriction away, but at the game table it should be something that GMs use to help design adventures (I.e. the party wizard wants to learn paragon surge, so he has to find someone who can cast it, and they demand services for sharing the knowledge). But I'm probably flogging a dead horse on this topic.

Humans, half-orcs, and some aasimar can learn it just fine with Racial Heritage (half-elf).

burning a spell to gain access to at most two spells doesn't seem so awesome to me. Useful, I'll grant, but not game breaking. additionally, you would have to either A) be a half-elf, or B) have access to a half-elf that has the spell and is willing to teach it to you.

You can also be human (or IIRC Aasimar) with the feat Racial Heritage (Half Elf). *edit* And apparently half-elf.

I know a lot of people in their theorycraft handwave that kind of restriction away, but at the game table it should be something that GMs use to help design adventures (I.e. the party wizard wants to learn paragon surge, so he has to find someone who can cast it, and they demand services for sharing the knowledge). But I'm probably flogging a dead horse on this topic.

Let's be clear: You burn a 3rd level spell, in exchange for up to two spells of any level below 9th. It's allowing the sorcerer class, which does have the superior casting mechanic to completely overcome all the weaknesses of having a limit on spells known. Oh, and in the case of an Half-Elf Oracle using the spell, the spell grants them the ability to access both the wizard and cleric spell list at will.

With Paragon Surge + Expanded Arcana and don't see Quick Study as much of a problem.

I have the opposite opinion. CHeese should not be the justification of more cheese.

I don't know about that. It never happened at our table, but then we aren’t that good at/or don’t focus on system mastery, at least not my friends.

I think a lot of players focus more on flavor and would rather play a Gnome, Human, Half-orc, or whatever, than pick a race based on a spell.

It definitely did at my table. One of the players came to me with the Paragon Surge spell and mentioned it has been the cause for some controversy on the forums, so I said we'd try it and see how it turned out. He played a 15th level sorcerer who essentially used it as duct tape - anything needed fixing? Just slap some Paragon Surge on it! Since the arcane spell list is riddled with circumstantially awesome spells he got insane amounts of mileage out of a 3rd level spell slot, to the point where he was gladly burning 4th level spell slots to get more Surge uses.

My players tend to start off visualizing the character they want to play, then optimize to make the character concept work. Ie they might start off with "I want to play a snarky Dresden-esque flame oracle that turns his foes to ash!"* and then start looking into how to make fire blasting work well on the oracle platform and adjust for the potential downsides - that fire resistance is very common, for instance.

*Disclaimer: My players would probably come up with something more original than this - example drawn out of my bookcase and thin air.

Zark wrote:

I never thought of that. I hope the Devs kill that loop hole.

It has been around for a long time now and has been pointed out several times to no effect.

Balance problem are more prone to be addresed if they are martial in nature.

With some of the discussion in this thread regarding the quick study exploit, don't Arcanists already get Paragon Surge making the whole thing kind of moot?

When a classes limitation is limited spells per day, casting spells to gain access to spells hurts.

andreww wrote:

Zark wrote:

I never thought of that. I hope the Devs kill that loop hole.

It has been around for a long time now and has been pointed out several times to no effect.

Balance problem are more prone to be addresed if they are martial in nature.

That's the kind of thing that makes me believe Paizo doesn't give a damn about game balance... They were eager to ban 2-handed weapon + armor spikes/unarmed strike as if it were not very underpowered, they nerfed weapon cord because a combat class was doing too much damage (although to be fair,m that one I understand, I disagree with it, but I understand), then crippled CW into complete uselessness because apparently, PFS GMs can't think of (or don't have the freedom to use) "advanced" tactics such as "using ranged weapons" or "attacking the same target twice".

And yet... Paragon Surge + Expanded Arcana/Eldritch Heritage, quite possibly the most broken loophole is still there... Perfectly functional. And let's not mention the always lovely Dazing Spell metamagic feat.

Nicos wrote:

andreww wrote:

Zark wrote:

I never thought of that. I hope the Devs kill that loop hole.

It has been around for a long time now and has been pointed out several times to no effect.

Balance problem are more prone to be addresed if they are martial in nature.

That's the kind of thing that makes me believe Paizo doesn't give a damn about game balance... They were eager to ban 2-handed weapon + armor spikes/unarmed strike as if it were not very underpowered, they nerfed weapon cord because a combat class was doing too much damage, then crippled CW into complete uselessness because apparently, PFS GMs can't think of "advanced" tactics such as "using ranged weapons" or "attacking the same target twice".

And yet... Paragon Surge + Expanded Arcana/Eldritch Heritage, quite possibly the most broken loophole is still there... Perfectly functional. And let's not mention the always lovely Dazing Spell metamagic feat.

You have made it very clear now in multiple posts you don't think Paizo cares about game balance. Obviously they do but you insist on arguing even when the devs come in and show you how the class balances out. At this point you're just beating a dead horse. You've made your illogical point, now move on.

You have made it very clear now in multiple posts you don't think Paizo cares about game balance. Obviously they do but you insist on arguing even when the devs come in and show you how the class balances out. At this point you're just beating a dead horse. You've made your illogical point, now move on.

Well, the point that was made about how the Arcanist class "balances out" wasn't very good, IMHO. A dev disagreeing with me doesn't make my point any less logical.

But you're right about something. I am beating a dead horse. The books has probably already gone to printing, so Paizo is probably unable to balance Arcanists even if they wanted to. There is no point in arguing this anymore. Right now, it's just my frustration talking.

I apologize to everyone if I come on too strong sometimes. It's not my intention to antagonize anyone. I'm just very frustrated.

I'm dropping this thread.

I think that a lot of folks are claiming this class is overpowered without having seen it in play. Is it good? Yes. Is it significantly better than a sorcerer or a wizard? No. It burns through its slots faster than a sorcerer and has a narrower focus than a wizard, which is exactly what it was designed to do.

Lets not take that out of context. The point of this class was to be close to the wizard and sorcerer and I think that we managed to pull that off. In some games, depending on your play styles, it may be a little better than one or other other, in other games it will be a little less good than one or other.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

It can do much of what a sorcerer can do...

Except for you know, when you compare the total number of spell slots per day.

8th level sorcerer: 6/6/5/3
8th level arcanist: 4/4/4/2

Just saying folks. Wait for the full class. I understand your criticisms. Thats part of the process. Lets just keep it civil and not get into arguments with each other.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

I've seen game designers make claims like this before. WotC, with the 3E druid, comes to mind. And, they were right; for the normal player who didn't optimize, the druid really wan't that much more powerful than a fighter.

And then the optimizers and munchkins got ahold of the druid. That's why the druid is still infamous as being an overpowered class... and why your company ended up nerfing it.

So, I'm going to be blunt: Unless you had munchkins on your playtest team for the final version to make certain it's not significantly more powerful, you failed. Because I guarantee this class will be optimized in ways no game designer ever thought of inside of a week of the book being released. Because that's what optimizers and munchkins do. If there is even the slightest possibility of this class being broken, they will break it and ride the shattered remains all over the site. After all, they already do with other classes.

So if your in-office set of playtesters are the same people you've been using since the core rulebook... then no, this is not balanced, and it is massively more powerful than you think it is. Given your words indicate you might think it is slightly stronger than two of the strongest classes in the game... that is scary. That is very, very scary.

Seriously? A 3rd edition druid in ANY animal form, with ANY animal companion is more powerful than the core fighter. I'm sorry, but you don't get to pin that on munchkins. It was just broken design.

His point is that unless you're the kind of person who knows how to go looking for those powerful traits, you won't notice them.

I have to agree. A first-time player who doesn't know any of the tricks of the trade just picking up a druid for his/her first character ever will probably make something subpar for combat purposes compared to the fighter, which is fairly straightforward and much less complex. It's pretty easy to make a not-so-great druid by focusing on the wrong things.

That same player, after a few months or years of experience, however, will probably be able to remake that druid much more effectively, in which case yes, curbstomping the fighter will be a breeze.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

I think that a lot of folks are claiming this class is overpowered without having seen it in play. Is it good? Yes. Is it significantly better than a sorcerer or a wizard? No. It burns through its slots faster than a sorcerer and has a narrower focus than a wizard, which is exactly what it was designed to do.

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

Lets not take that out of context. The point of this class was to be close to the wizard and sorcerer and I think that we managed to pull that off. In some games, depending on your play styles, it may be a little better than one or other other, in other games it will be a little less good than one or other.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

Jason Bulmahn wrote:

It can do much of what a sorcerer can do...

Except for you know, when you compare the total number of spell slots per day.

8th level sorcerer: 6/6/5/3
8th level arcanist: 4/4/4/2

Just saying folks. Wait for the full class. I understand your criticisms. Thats part of the process. Lets just keep it civil and not get into arguments with each other.

Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer

I've seen game designers make claims like this before. WotC, with the 3E druid, comes to mind. And, they were right; for the normal player who didn't optimize, the druid really wan't that much more powerful than a fighter.

And then the optimizers and munchkins got ahold of the druid. That's why the druid is still infamous as being an overpowered class... and why your company ended up nerfing it.

So, I'm going to be blunt: Unless you had munchkins on your playtest team for the final version to make certain it's not significantly more powerful, you failed. Because I guarantee this class will be optimized in ways no game designer ever thought of inside of a week of the book being released. Because that's what optimizers and munchkins do. If there is even the slightest possibility of this class being broken, they will break it and ride the shattered remains all over the site....

So, I understand what you are saying and some what agree. But on the other hand all full spell casters are unbalanced. Then you get optimizers and then anything can become unbalanced. Also using optimization as a way of saying something is unbalanced is not that great of an argument. Plus we have not seen the full class, there could be more things changed.

Understand I also believe the Arcanist is powerful and is more versatile then most classes. I played one during WOTR and then recreated him into a wizard and the arcanist was more powerful then the wizard form but not by much. The arcanist was just more versatile.