Mythic Preview—Path Abilities

Wow, these are all really fun looking abilities. Especially Class Mimic, it seems like clever players can get a lot of mileage out of that one.

0.0 Why must I wait! Damn my cheap ways!

Rawr. Can't make it to GenCon but I can't wait to get my copy!

I've been eagerly anticipating this book since I heard about it last year, and everything I've heard lately is making me even more excited about it. I can't wait to see the anouncements from this years con!

Oooh, I like abundant healing.

I have to say I'm somewhere on the grounds between confused and underwhelmed. The powers can be divided into three groups:

1) Those That Don't Make Sense - given that any class can take any mythic tier, we see that any class can gain access to powers like Many Forms and Titan's Rage - but why would a fighter (even a legendary fighter of unmatched capabilities) be able to change his or her size or appearance? When I envision a mythic fighter, I see Achilles, and HE never enlarged himself...

2) The "regular except stronger" - including abundant healing and words of valor and invincible stand. These are the closest to being good, I think, and I like invincible stand as it really breaks what can usually happen in a game.

3) Class Mimic - ugh. Meta game powers. While I see why this power can be fun to play with, I also think it doesn't work within the context of a Pathfinder game. What's the next step? "Look at the stat block of a single creature?"

It took me a bit to figure out what Abundant Healing actually does -- but when I did, I immediately began wanting it for every cleric I ever play! :)

1) Those That Don't Make Sense - given that any class can take any mythic tier, we see that any class can gain access to powers like Many Forms and Titan's Rage - but why would a fighter (even a legendary fighter of unmatched capabilities) be able to change his or her size or appearance? When I envision a mythic fighter, I see Achilles, and HE never enlarged himself...

If the power doesn't make sense for your character, then don't take it. It will work great for someone else's character.

I agree that for the strictly non-magic fighter, it is a no-go. But what if your character is a Barbarian who already gets an assortment of magic powers when raging? Or the party wizard has been hitting you with enlarge person every battle for 10 levels, so some has rubbed off? Or your character is mythic because of something like a magic or divine bloodline? Or you're a wild-shape loving battle druid who didn't take the magic-y paths? Like the Minor Magic rogue trick, there are lots of ways for that power to make sense.

1) ...but why would a fighter (even a legendary fighter of unmatched capabilities) be able to change his or her size or appearance? When I envision a mythic fighter, I see Achilles, and HE never enlarged himself...

Because he's mythic.

3) Class Mimic - ugh. Meta game powers. While I see why this power can be fun to play with, I also think it doesn't work within the context of a Pathfinder game. What's the next step? "Look at the stat block of a single creature?"

"I steal your power" is a fairly common trope in myths and other stories.

Class Mimic sounds fun. The messsageboard response I expect to Class Mimic makes me want to bang my head on my keyboard.

We can't have nice things without the later I suppose, but I hope quick clarification on the various issues that will rise out of it are at the ready to squash the tide...

While I'm trying to hold off judgement until I get the actual book in hand, these look pretty cool.

Because he's mythic.
Because not all fighter PCs are modeled after Achilles. Some, for example, might be modeled after Cú or even the Hulk.

Where is my Gáe Bulga?

SKR beat me to the "Yeah but Cu'Chullain did" bit.

I'm pretty excited for Mythic again now, I'd mostly forgotten about it.

I'm surprised by how diverse and versatile these abilities are. If the book has more like this ill be very pleased.

How about we start shipping the goods now? Yes? :D

I'm looking forward to it.

Class Mimic sounds fun. The messsageboard response I expect to Class Mimic makes me want to bang my head on my keyboard.

We can't have nice things without the later I suppose, but I hope quick clarification on the various issues that will rise out of it are at the ready to squash the tide...

You should check our kobold press' savant class in Kobold Quarterly 18. That's basically the whole class!

I would just like to say I like Sajan's pants there. He also must of worked on his tan while making his way up to mythic status.

Oh, and I'm looking forward to seeing the Mythic stuff.

Lord Snow wrote:

1) ...but why would a fighter (even a legendary fighter of unmatched capabilities) be able to change his or her size or appearance? When I envision a mythic fighter, I see Achilles, and HE never enlarged himself...

Because he's mythic.

Because not all fighter PCs are modeled after Achilles. Some, for example, might be modeled after Cú or even the Hulk.
And fortunately, each path gives you more than 40 options, so if a particular ability doesn't suit your character, there are many more to choose from. Your preconception of what a mythic fighter should be isn't necessarily the same as anyone else's.

Lord Snow wrote:

3) Class Mimic - ugh. Meta game powers. While I see why this power can be fun to play with, I also think it doesn't work within the context of a Pathfinder game. What's the next step? "Look at the stat block of a single creature?"

"I steal your power" is a fairly common trope in myths and other stories.

I guarantee one of my players is going to try to make Rogue (the rogue).

All of these are super exciting. Now my subscriptions just need to ship so I can stop refreshing my email every 5 minutes!

Looking forward to this even more now.

Class Mimic sounds fun. The messsageboard response I expect to Class Mimic makes me want to bang my head on my keyboard.

We can't have nice things without the later I suppose, but I hope quick clarification on the various issues that will rise out of it are at the ready to squash the tide...

My problem with mimic is that you can't steal powers with it. Notice the 'willing' bit.

Maybe steal power is another mythic power not yet revealed.

The downside to Titan's Rage is that you have to get a high-level sorceress to yell, "Magic wand, make my monster grow!!!"

ciretose wrote:

Class Mimic sounds fun. The messsageboard response I expect to Class Mimic makes me want to bang my head on my keyboard.

We can't have nice things without the later I suppose, but I hope quick clarification on the various issues that will rise out of it are at the ready to squash the tide...

My problem with mimic is that you can't steal powers with it. Notice the 'willing' bit.

Maybe steal power is another mythic power not yet revealed.

I could see removing the 'willing' clause (and allowing a saving throw) as a higher-tier upgraded power. Or simply a feat that lets you use Class Mimic on enemies:)

C'mon...charge my card already and ship my Mythic book!!!

Seriously can't wait to dive into it...and I'm even more excited to see the changes to the playtest material (for some odd reason).

Also, I'm loving Sajan's new look.

Lord Snow wrote:

1) ...but why would a fighter (even a legendary fighter of unmatched capabilities) be able to change his or her size or appearance? When I envision a mythic fighter, I see Achilles, and HE never enlarged himself...

Because he's mythic.

Best.Answer.Ever.

The playtest version has been my answer to the overpowered PCs in my Kingmaker campaign, and this comes out just in time to pump up Choral the Conqueror in a winner-take-all showdown next week!

Was kind of on the fence with mythic (as epic levels didn't interest me), but this looks like a must-buy.

I guess this can be my Tier 1 GM reward.

"Hierophant, 3rd Tier:

Abundant Healing (Su): When you use a spell or class ability to heal a creature's hit point damage, you can apply excess healing (over the target's full hit points) to one ally adjacent to you. You can continue to apply excess healing to other adjacent allies until no injured allies are adjacent or you run out of excess healing. For example, if you could cure 40 points of damage with your cure critical wounds spell and the target has taken only 20 points of damage, you can apply the remaining 20 points of healing to an adjacent ally; if that second ally has taken only 15 points of damage, you can apply the remaining 5 points of healing to another adjacent ally."

Interesting. Given the varied nature of the divine classes and the emphasis that is given to being well-rounded, so a class does not become a "healing battery", it looks like some of the specialization of applying a targeted effect "healing", and retaining (or redirecting, retaining would take more effort) the spillover for another targeted use is something that has been lost to current divine followers.

Without a large effort placed on specialization, it would seem that it is possible, though the "I am the conduit of my god(dess)" role is where the people spend most of their effort.. I am interested in this book to see what I can deconstruct down to perhaps feat chains or something.. "Efficiency Improvements", if the term "feat chain" is a bit too evocative of days gone by.

It took me a bit to figure out what Abundant Healing actually does -- but when I did, I immediately began wanting it for every cleric I ever play! :)

"And my Druid!"

I mean, it instantly makes Heal a sort of 'mass cure two people after a short combat'!

So good.

Omggggggg c'mon Thursday.

At will alter self? Well, it doesn't let my archmage do things like turn into a bird for long-term flight, but it's a start!

Great Blog post. Thanks Sean K Reynolds.

I wasn't involved in the beta test and I wasn’t really interested in the Mythic rules, but reading this I’m starting to get excited.

What I like about the blog post is that now we see powers that are actually Mythic, especially the Trickster and Champion abilities.

What is the surge ability that Words of Valor refers to?

I like the feel of these mythic abilities overall. It does provide PCs with cool abilities that are different from what their class usually gives them while still making sense for the character.

Some nitpicks though :

Many forms would provide more utility to the Trickster really, though I see the nod to the Merlin vs Mim shapechange duel.

Invincible Stand is a waste of space IMO. Don't people ever learn ? There is a reason why the Defender style just does not work in PFRPG. Unless you have some ability that reliably forces your opponents to come and attack you, being stranded in a square equals being taken out of combat.
The "If you choose to move or are moved by another creature during this time, this protection immediately ends." clause is the final nail in the coffin. I cannot wait to face a NPC with this ability so that I can take it away by bull-rushing him. Or grappling and moving him. Maybe even tripping him could be considered making him move.

The Class Mimic seems too good to be true and it is just a matter of time before people break it in so many ways. But it is still a very cool ability. Being counted as having the class feature you stole is what I feel will be most rules-problematic. For example it may fulfill some requirements for magic items with no need for UMD.

That said, I can't wait for the whole book for more Mythic goodness :-)

Many forms would provide more utility to the Trickster really, though I see the nod to the Merlin vs Mim shapechange duel.

As I recall from the playtest, there's a Dual Path ability that you can choose that would cover your bases in this case.

As I recall from the playtest, there's a Dual Path ability that you can choose that would cover your bases in this case.

I'm hope they remove that ability.

I like the look of these, especially the titans rage. Now I can play my barbarian based on Slaine Macroth. Go the warp spasm.

Cthulhudrew wrote:

As I recall from the playtest, there's a Dual Path ability that you can choose that would cover your bases in this case.

I'm hope they remove that ability.

I asked if it was still there in the MA discussion thread. Apparently it's still there and does basically the same thing as in the playtest.

Invincible Stand is a waste of space IMO. Don't people ever learn ? There is a reason why the Defender style just does not work in PFRPG. Unless you have some ability that reliably forces your opponents to come and attack you, being stranded in a square equals being taken out of combat.

The "If you choose to move or are moved by another creature during this time, this protection immediately ends." clause is the final nail in the coffin. I cannot wait to face a NPC with this ability so that I can take it away by bull-rushing him. Or grappling and moving him. Maybe even tripping him could be considered making him move.

You're right. I mean, it might be different if there were other path abilities that allowed you to redirect any ranged attack directed at an ally within 30 feet to you instead of the ally, that increased your threatened range by 5 feet for the purposes of AoOs, that added your tier to the DC of any trip, bull rush, drag, or reposition maneuver made against you (and let you spend a use of mythic power as an immediate action to cause any such successful attempt to automatically fail anyway), and that caused any movement within your threatened area to provoke an AoO even if that movement would not ordinarily do so... but yeah. Totally a waste of space.

Cthulhudrew wrote:

As I recall from the playtest, there's a Dual Path ability that you can choose that would cover your bases in this case.

I'm hope they remove that ability.

Why?

I'm rather disappointed with Invincible Stand, but the others look good enough at first glance.

The black raven wrote:

Invincible Stand is a waste of space IMO. Don't people ever learn ? There is a reason why the Defender style just does not work in PFRPG. Unless you have some ability that reliably forces your opponents to come and attack you, being stranded in a square equals being taken out of combat.

The "If you choose to move or are moved by another creature during this time, this protection immediately ends." clause is the final nail in the coffin. I cannot wait to face a NPC with this ability so that I can take it away by bull-rushing him. Or grappling and moving him. Maybe even tripping him could be considered making him move.

You're right. I mean, it might be different if there were other path abilities that allowed you to redirect any ranged attack directed at an ally within 30 feet to you instead of the ally, that increased your threatened range by 5 feet for the purposes of AoOs, that added your tier to the DC of any trip, bull rush, drag, or reposition maneuver made against you (and let you spend a use of mythic power as an immediate action to cause any such successful attempt to automatically fail anyway), and that caused any movement within your threatened area to provoke an AoO even if that movement would not ordinarily do so... but yeah. Totally a waste of space.

So, basically with Mythic rules you can tank like in an MMO? ^^

So, basically with Mythic rules you can tank like in an MMO? ^^

I'm just saying these abilities might better be judged in context than entirely on the basis of what's in a blog post.

magnuskn wrote:

So, basically with Mythic rules you can tank like in an MMO? ^^

I'm just saying these abilities might better be judged in context than entirely on the basis of what's in a blog post.

+1

Cat-thulhu wrote:

Cthulhudrew wrote:

As I recall from the playtest, there's a Dual Path ability that you can choose that would cover your bases in this case.

I'm hope they remove that ability.

Why?

Yes, why? That was one of my favorite options in the whole playtest.

"I steal your power" is a fairly common trope in myths and other stories.

Doesn't mean the mechanic is done right. To me it actually feels really wrong.

Just like there's a trope about the bard who knows how to defeat the monster, and the mechanic that represents it is that the bard has good bonuses to knowledge checks, and if she gets a high enough score the GM will tell the players something like, "legends say that the fiend is completely immune to fire, and capable of smelling it's foes from a hundred miles away". That's a very good integration of a mechanic with the feel of the game.
Another way the mechanic could have been implemented, a "meta game" way, would have been to allow the bard's player to look at the monster's stat block. Sure, "the bard that knows about the monster" is a common trope, but I will feel a real break in verisimilitude if the GM would just hand the player a stat block as part of an in game power.
In the game, a barbarian's ability to rage or a rouge's ability to disarm sneak attacks are inherit parts of that character's personality and a reflection of her style - the barbarian rages because he looses himself in a red haze of bloodlust. The rouge fights dirty. How are those things one can "steal"? I know that outside of the game we distiguish those abilities because they come from having a class, but in game, there's no such thing as a "barbarian" class. A savage warrior from a forgotten tribe can easily be a fighter, and a haughty noblewomen from Opara might just lose it in a fight and go into a rage, because her class is barbarian. so "in-game", there's nothing to distinguish the class ability "rage" from, for example, a tendancy to scratch your wrists when you think. However, for meta game reasons, the trickster's powers allow her to steal the rage, because it's a "class feature".

Maybe my opinion does not reflect that of the majority of player, but seriously, that mechanic would just never work for me.

But hey, if we are doing that, here's a new power:

forgetfulness - once per day, you may target one creature as a standard action. That creature has to make it's will save, or it succumbs to terrible forgetfulness. For 10 rounds, nobody may look at the creature's statistics. If the target is a player, the GM will keep the character sheet. Whenever the player tries to make an action, if he does not remember exactly all the rules and statistics that are related to the action, that player's character skips his or her turn this round. If the target is a GM controlled creature, the GM can't look at any bestiary, rule book or other printed or electronic pages of any kind that contain information about the creature for the duration of the power.

Yeah, I don't like meta game powers.

Cat-thulhu wrote:

Cthulhudrew wrote:

As I recall from the playtest, there's a Dual Path ability that you can choose that would cover your bases in this case.

I'm hope they remove that ability.

Why?

Well until I see the book my dislike is based on the playtest. Largely abilities were tied to a class and simply labeled path ability. You could choose any you wanted over 10 tiers - a lot of freedom already. Allowing a pick and choose from all paths leaves the way open for cherry picking. I'd rather see each path as a distinct entity with distinct path abilities so the choice of path was a distinct character evolution. Curiously...

Doesn't mean the mechanic is done right. To me it actually feels really wrong... a barbarian's ability to rage or a rouge's ability to disarm sneak attacks are inherit parts of that character's personality and a reflection of her style - the barbarian rages because he looses himself in a red haze of bloodlust. The rouge fights dirty.

I like this ability. Some of the ones you have concerns about can't be mimicked. It doesn't allow for limited use per day abilities or companions so it's quite limited. The rogues sneak attack is one that could be interesting...

I am cruious to see how amazing initiave end up. It was actual edit during the play test and caused a lot of debate on the board both before and after the update. SKR can you give us an update on it?

meatrace wrote:

Cat-thulhu wrote:

Cthulhudrew wrote:

As I recall from the playtest, there's a Dual Path ability that you can choose that would cover your bases in this case.

I'm hope they remove that ability.

Why?

Well until I see the book my dislike is based on the playtest. Largely abilities were tied to a class and simply labeled path ability. You could choose any you wanted over 10 tiers - a lot of freedom already. Allowing a pick and choose from all paths leaves the way open for cherry picking. I'd rather see each path as a distinct entity with distinct path abilities so the choice of path was a distinct character evolution.

Ah, so you dislike it for the exact reason I like it.

Curiously...

lord snow wrote:

Doesn't mean the mechanic is done right. To me it actually feels really wrong... a barbarian's ability to rage or a rouge's ability to disarm sneak attacks are inherit parts of that character's personality and a reflection of her style - the barbarian rages because he looses himself in a red haze of bloodlust. The rouge fights dirty.

I like this ability. Some of the ones you have concerns about can't be mimicked. It doesn't allow for limited use per day abilities or companions so it's quite limited. The rogues sneak attack is one that could be interesting...

I missed the fact that rage can't be stolen, but that's really accidental. There are so many other abilities that make no sense when you steal them - why does it make sense to steal a ranger's Wild Track ability, but not her perception skill? in game, how are those two all that different? And why would you be able to steal s Dragon's Disciple inherent bonus to strength? it's not an "ability", it's an inherited power. Stealing it is akin to stealing someone's eye color. Or a barbarian's DR (whcih really comes to show that the barbarian is a TOUGH guy).

Once you start referencing out-of-game terms with in-game powers, it gets messy. The game is inherently a simulation that, when held to close inspection, doesn't make perfect sense. Attempting to force those out of game approximations of reality into supposedly in game powers, you draw attention to that lack of logic instead of making it as unimportant as possible.