Guide 4.2 and Changes to Pathfinder Society Organized Play

What if we already have an arcane bonded firearm?

Then you can sell back any enchantment you have on it, toss the base item in the trash and pick a new bonded item.

What if we already have an arcane bonded firearm?

You will need to adjust your character accordingly then.

Thanks for opening up Aasimar, Tengu, and Tiefling.

In my opinion, anyone who dumpstats two or more ability scores kinda missed the point of playing a Pathfinder Society character in the first place. Pathfinders should strive for balance.

Good riddance to min-maxed characters and the all-too-numerous Munchkins who love playing them!

I for one am totally okay with the banning of synthesists and the no changing ability scores. Go Brock!

I appreciate these changes but I hate retroactive nerfs.

I hate having to say I-told-you-so.

Joko PO wrote:

Anyone have any insight as to why the GraveWalker Witch got the axe?

Probably something to do with the flavor, as noted from the text in the PRD.

"Spell Poppet: Each gravewalker carries around a gristly, inanimate poppet stitched from human skin and stuffed with shards of bone, fingernails, and grave dirt. A gravewalker's spells come from the will of evil spirits residing in the poppet, and its ability to hold spells functions in a manner identical to the way a witch's spells are granted by her familiar."

Riiiiight. But I can now play a Chelaxian Tielfing Necromancer who likes to cast spells with he Evil descriptor. You will excuse me if I now go and see if I can listen to the sound of a hair splitting.

Good Call on the no changing ability scores! Folks rigged their scores to take advantage of the system with a obviously OP class. They got caught and now they get to keep their scores :D

True - but not to take fun away from anyone or ruin the game in any way (and I don't feel I have) - but much more to actually showcase the crazyness of the way the synthesist works, as the (hobbyist) game designer in me screamed "bad rules design!" Ok, and also "fun hole to exploit, let's see where I can take this". And I totally understand why the synthesist has to go - I hope my play experience might have helhed that decision along (our main GM was a VC after all). But I don't see why I have to be punished?

The fact remains that I have broken no rules, I've been a team player, I've had fun with my friends for 6 months and I've really been looking forward to playing the really high level games (my second highest level character is lvl 5...). This is now pretty much impossible, as I'll go from being a valuable addition to the team to a liability that just takes up space at the table.

I'll try to think about my options and look at it as an interesting obstacle to work around, but I'm not sure it's doable with 8, 8 and 10 as my physical stats...

so my master summoner got banned---but the gunslinger with two dual pistols doing 8 shots a round and about 200 dpr is still allowed. ANd archers who can do 30 damage with every arrow by level 5 are still allowed? Guess the squeaky wheel does get the grease.

I don't know where you're getting the archery from, but that damage figures for the Gunslinger were based on corner rule interpretations on what size gun a character could use.

If so, pay attention to the lines which say to the effect that Firearms of Large or greater size have joined the Synthesist Summoner to extinction.

Good Call on the no changing ability scores! Folks rigged their scores to take advantage of the system with a obviously OP class. They got caught and now they get to keep their scores :D

I don't suppose it's possible that anyone would want to play someone who was physically disabled but used magic to overcome it? I suppose if the walking-assist exoskeletons or self-driving cars ever hit the market, I'll have to consider whether I'm defying the proper order of things by using tech to overcome my mobility and vision issues.

Good Call on the no changing ability scores! Folks rigged their scores to take advantage of the system with a obviously OP class. They got caught and now they get to keep their scores :D

Sure, I mean it's everyday that a "GraveWalker is Broken" thread shows up. That class was obviously overpowered. (Please reads with the loads of intended sarcasm.)

I would recommend that, instead of poking or laughing at the people some felt were gaming the system, everyone recognize that some of their fun has been squashed. The boards have had a habit, in the past, of claiming that people 'should have known better' when all they were doing was playing by the rules.

Not everyone chose the synthesist for cheese. Not everyone chose the Undead Lord to skirt evil.

I would never have chosen to play those classes, but I respect the feelings of those who may think they have had the rug pulled out from under them. I salute those characters.

Keep in mind that none of these decisions were easy.

*Tears up race boons*

*Tears up character sheet for my vivisectionist alchemist*

I have 3 race boons. Aasimar, Teifling and Tengu. They are now scrap paper. It would have been nice for people who support PFS at conventions to be offered an alternate boon if they have unused aasimar/teifling/tengu boons. Even a free vanity would have been nice.

As someone who has defended the special nature of convention boons I feel a bit let down by this. I'll get over it and I'm glad people get a chance to play these characters but I will say some of the specialness of my Tengu Samurai has been lost.

I respect the decision. I can't say I agree with it.

I understand. I'm just getting ready to start a new Aasimar character with my boon from last year.

Here's an idea. If you have a boon and you start the character on or after 8/16/12, you can start at 2nd level with 1,000 gp. If you've already started the PC, well, you've got the boon of using it since you started it. This would still give some value to the race boons that haven't been used yet. Just an idea.

-Swiftbrook

Some people are treading close to a line. Per the blog above, However you feel about these changes, I ask that you remain respectful of the feelings of others when commenting below. We are a community and we all know players who probably have a beloved character affected by the changes above. Please keep discourse civil and appropriate.

Good Call on the no changing ability scores! Folks rigged their scores to take advantage of the system with a obviously OP class. They got caught and now they get to keep their scores :D

Yes, taking those 10s in Strenght and Dexterity was really rigging the system. As opposed to say: melee classes dumping Intelligence and Charisma.

It still leaves the character unable to effectively fulfill the role for which he was build. With a relallocation of stats I could still manage, even without changing base class, but not as stands.

Now, if I want cheese, I could build a druid that is an order of magnitude more powerful than any synthesist. Is that going to be the next class people scream to have banned?

Thanks for opening up Aasimar, Tengu, and Tiefling.

In my opinion, anyone who dumpstats two or more ability scores kinda missed the point of playing a Pathfinder Society character in the first place. Pathfinders should strive for balance.

Good riddance to min-maxed characters and the all-too-numerous Munchkins who love playing them!

There's no wrong way to build a character. It's just that if the character uses some of the more esoteric or corner-case rules, the player needs to accept the chance that somewhere down the line, their character may cease to function. If they're ok with that risk, then I say go nuts.

While I agree some classes needed to go, the glee at which the community is watching them depart deeply saddens me. I enjoy an inclusive community, not one that laughs while others characters burn.

What about cosmetic changes not mentioned as available for rebuilding in the blog? Such as name? Can we rename the character? Can Sam the Summoner become Bob the Bard?

@Casiel: Drop the blanket statements. I am -sometimes- a munchkin. Especially if the rest of the group is too. I'm 99% certain that you would enjoy playing with me at the table.

The Synthesist was overpowered and very very hard to understand. It was incredibly easy to misinterpret the (many) rules about it. I'm glad to see it go. But should I be punished for playing by the rules, being a team player and having fun with my friends? I feel this is happening and it annoys and saddens me. Let me rebuild my char, so that I can play on with my friends and keep having fun into the retirement/modules and not feel like I get ledt behind after 6 months of play.

Well, the problem with synthesists versus the low mental stat fighters, is that the fighters actually had to deal with having low mental stats. Skill points, will saves, etc... Synthesists dumped their physical scores and still got good physical stats when merged. The 7/7/7 synthesist basically gets (assuming biped) another 25 points for free. And that isn't an issue for some of you?

Seeing as Tieflings are now a legal race for the society as a whole, is there any chance any of the Tiefling options from Pathfinder Adventure Path #25: The Bastards of Erebus are going to become available to them? Or were those going to be reprinted/changed in a future book?

Idea for future (convention?) boon:

"If your character has a racial boon chronicle sheet applied... [insert something cool]"

That would offer any "old school" aasimar, tengu, tieflings or any future fully open races something special. :)

Hakken wrote:

so my master summoner got banned---but the gunslinger with two dual pistols doing 8 shots a round and about 200 dpr is still allowed. ANd archers who can do 30 damage with every arrow by level 5 are still allowed? Guess the squeaky wheel does get the grease.

I don't know where you're getting the archery from, but that damage figures for the Gunslinger were based on corner rule interpretations on what size gun a character could use.

If so, pay attention to the lines which say to the effect that Firearms of Large or greater size have joined the Synthesist Summoner to extinction.

Pistol, double-barreled 1,750 gp 1d6 1d8 ×4 20 ft. 1–2 (5 ft.) 2 5 lbs. B and P

by just one adventure into 3rd level--a gunslinger can have two of these--giving him 4 attacks a round vs touch ac. with other pluses add in-(grit, clustered shot) etc on top of that. Everytime the gunslinger gets an additional attack by BAB--he actually gets TWO additional shots. double barrel pistols are broken.

it has always been the gunslingers which break our games---basically walking up and one shotting the BBEG.

Take Boat wrote:

So do full-level rebuilds get to change their ability scores or are we going to have a bunch of ex-synthesists running around with hilariously dumped physical scores?

No, people do not get to change ability scores.

And how about gear?

With no stat change I've just gone from front line fighter to squishy caster. The two would be geared in completely different manners.

Traits? With a class change not all traits will make sense, or even be legal.

While I agree some classes needed to go, the glee at which the community is watching them depart deeply saddens me. I enjoy an inclusive community, not one that laughs while others characters burn.

What if we enjoy watching all PCs burn equally?

Oh, hey, a change on page 34-35 that I was just pointed to:

'Characters who commit potentially evil acts (casting spells with the Evil descriptor, killing or maiming someone, etc.) while following specific orders from their faction or the Pathfinder Society, do not suffer alignment infractions. These are cases where karma applies to those making the orders, not their tools.'

So it's nice that you can't get removed from play for being a Scarzni.

Michael Brock wrote:

Take Boat wrote:

So do full-level rebuilds get to change their ability scores or are we going to have a bunch of ex-synthesists running around with hilariously dumped physical scores?

No, people do not get to change ability scores.

And how about gear?

With no stat change I've just gone from front line fighter to squishy caster. The two would be geared in completely different manners.

Traits? With a class change not all traits will make sense, or even be legal.

You may sell affected equipment for the full price paid when you purchased them (as listed on past Chronicle sheets).

If traits become illegal, they can be changed under past guidelines for rebuilds.

The Synthesist was overpowered and very very hard to understand. It was incredibly easy to misinterpret the (many) rules about it. I'm glad to see it go. But should I be punished for playing by the rules, being a team player and having fun with my friends? I feel this is happening and it annoys and saddens me. Let me rebuild my char, so that I can play on with my friends and keep having fun into the retirement/modules and not feel like I get ledt behind after 6 months of play.

The synthesist was hard to understand.

It could never approach the power level of certain other builds within the level range supported by PFS play.

Seeing as Tieflings are now a legal race for the society as a whole, is there any chance any of the Tiefling options from Pathfinder Adventure Path #25: The Bastards of Erebus are going to become available to them? Or were those going to be reprinted/changed in a future book?

You might be interested in the legal portions of Blood of Fiends, especially its version of heritages - doesn't even require a feat like the ones from BoE!

Some people really like to play with Godmode on. It doesn't make them wrong

Actually it certainly does in a group based game. Other players are robbed of challenge and outshined. Only in a single player video game is god mode is harmless.

True - but not to take fun away from anyone or ruin the game in any way (and I don't feel I have) - but much more to actually showcase the crazyness of the way the synthesist works, as the (hobbyist) game designer in me screamed "bad rules design!" Ok, and also "fun hole to exploit, let's see where I can take this". And I totally understand why the synthesist has to go - I hope my play experience might have helhed that decision along (our main GM was a VC after all). But I don't see why I have to be punished?

You got caught. You saw the design was bad and took advantage of it. Enough folks did that to where Paizo is bringing down the boot on them.

Well, the problem with synthesists versus the low mental stat fighters, is that the fighters actually had to deal with having low mental stats. Skill points, will saves, etc... Synthesists dumped their physical scores and still got good physical stats when merged. The 7/7/7 synthesist basically gets (assuming biped) another 25 points for free. And that isn't an issue for some of you?

It's not that we don't know it, and that it's not an issue. It's more about how people go about condemning one another for percieved fallacies when the rules previously were thus. It's disheartening how quickly some turn to being a jerk even when the leadership has vindicated their point of view. You'd think that the loss of one's character would be enough of a blow without having someone verbally rub salt into the wound.

Well, the problem with synthesists versus the low mental stat fighters, is that the fighters actually had to deal with having low mental stats. Skill points, will saves, etc... Synthesists dumped their physical scores and still got good physical stats when merged. The 7/7/7 synthesist basically gets (assuming biped) another 25 points for free. And that isn't an issue for some of you?

How many fighters or barbarians that stat dumped Int and Cha down to 7 actually roleplay a limitation?

And I never mentioned Wis, the min-max crowd does not dump that stat.

I would just like to point out, I completely understand the anger and frustration some people feel right now. I was planning on making a vivisectionist to start at Gencon until after looking through the class progression realized how easy it is to become unbalanced. For those complaining about their stats eliminating possibilities for them, remember this. Regardless of if you dumped your physical or mental stats, your base character was built that way. if you have 7 7 10 for physical skills, all of those points went somewhere. The character itself was always a caster, you will just now have to play it like one.

You might be interested in the legal portions of Blood of Fiends, especially its version of heritages - doesn't even require a feat like the ones from BoE!

Ahhh, yes that sounds like about what I was thinking of. Thanks! :)

While I don't have a Synthesist Summoner, and am not affected by the above rebuild rules, I would ask that those who do have to rebuild be allowed to change their ability scores.

I know several players who dumped their physical stats (in one case, three 7s) and took advantage of the Eidolon to replace those stats.

By not allowing a rebuild of statistics, these characters (including several that are fairly high level) effectively become unplayable, as there is no class that can really function well with these physical ability scores.

While the Synthesist was IMO overpowered, it was ruled to be legal for PFS play. I do not feel that players should be punished in any way for using a legal option, even if it is now banned.

Daxter wrote:

Well, the problem with synthesists versus the low mental stat fighters, is that the fighters actually had to deal with having low mental stats. Skill points, will saves, etc... Synthesists dumped their physical scores and still got good physical stats when merged. The 7/7/7 synthesist basically gets (assuming biped) another 25 points for free. And that isn't an issue for some of you?

How many fighters or barbarians that stat dumped Int and Cha down to 7 actually roleplay a limitation?

And I never mentioned Wis, the min-max crowd does not dump that stat.

My All time favorite character was actually a half orc barbarian with an int of 5. Playing a ridiculously strong character with a heart of gold and the intelligence of a 1st grader was fun for me and the whole group.

Daxter wrote:

Well, the problem with synthesists versus the low mental stat fighters, is that the fighters actually had to deal with having low mental stats. Skill points, will saves, etc... Synthesists dumped their physical scores and still got good physical stats when merged. The 7/7/7 synthesist basically gets (assuming biped) another 25 points for free. And that isn't an issue for some of you?

It's not that we don't know it, and that it's not an issue. It's more about how people go about condemning one another for percieved fallacies when the rules previously were thus. It's disheartening how quickly some turn to being a jerk even when the leadership has vindicated their point of view. You'd think that the loss of one's character would be enough of a blow without having someone verbally rub salt into the wound.

On the other hand, it's very disheartening to see people gleefully creating builds meant, whether consciously or not, to marginalize other people participating in a team-based game.

the min-max crowd

We need a name for the other crowd - the crowd that claims poor social behavior on the part of the min-max crowd while openly being dicks themselves and thinking that's okay.

You got caught. You saw the design was bad and took advantage of it. Enough folks did that to where Paizo is bringing down the boot on them.

The class design was definitely bad IMO. But players should not be punished for using a LEGAL option that was then later banned.

Derwalt,

I haven't posted in a while - a lot of the reason behind that was the hostility on the boards. It doesn't matter that what you were playing was optimized - people shouldn't be taking pleasure in the fact that your character was deconstructed.
Paizo released a DEEPLY flawed, but REALLY awesome kit with the Synthesist. They said "hey, this is legal for pathfinder society" and people built for it (please note I'm not one of those people, I have no personal stake in it) becuase one of the classes key features was the ability to change physical scores. Why wouldn't you build for that, it was part of the classes main power.
When a classes main power is that it changes your stats and makes you good at melee, and a GM takes that ability away, you SHOULD get a stat re-roll. Unless it's a punitive change and INTENDED TO PUNISH YOU, it's the only thing to do that makes sense.
Paizo, what's up??? You guys have written a BOOK on how to GM well, and this is most definitely NOT that.

@Frank: I see it as I helped that change come about. I don't think "I got caught". I actually quite resent that implication.

By the way my character died 5 times during our games, he very rarely outdamaged anyone, and as I've said before; I was both a team player, and I only played in our home games, with my friends. Why do I have to get punished? Why do I have to "get caught"? What imaginary rule did I break?

Fair enough. But at least the 7/7 fighter had no skill points, even worse at intimidate/any social skill compared to the synthesist who had it all. Free points are free points. And for the record, my tiefling ranger is a total jerk to everyone who admits to being the dumbest tiefling ever.

And +1 to what Cheapy said.

Daniel Luckett wrote:

Daxter wrote:

Well, the problem with synthesists versus the low mental stat fighters, is that the fighters actually had to deal with having low mental stats. Skill points, will saves, etc... Synthesists dumped their physical scores and still got good physical stats when merged. The 7/7/7 synthesist basically gets (assuming biped) another 25 points for free. And that isn't an issue for some of you?

It's not that we don't know it, and that it's not an issue. It's more about how people go about condemning one another for percieved fallacies when the rules previously were thus. It's disheartening how quickly some turn to being a jerk even when the leadership has vindicated their point of view. You'd think that the loss of one's character would be enough of a blow without having someone verbally rub salt into the wound.

On the other hand, it's very disheartening to see people gleefully creating builds meant, whether consciously or not, to marginalize other people participating in a team-based game.

Which builds are you referring to?

While I may not support the changes, I understand most of them.

The one I don't is Vivisectionist. It isn't an inheritly evil class, no more so than rogue. It's basicly a rogue who substituted traps and skills for alchemical talent.
Sure, they might have had to cut people up. My sister is a P.T. major and disected cadavers in college. She's not evil. It's learning for the purpose of helping others. I think that the vivisectionist can easily trend right along these lines.

I'm also not too thrilled about the races opening up; Tiefling and Aasimar are just power races that are a cut above the core. I'm not looking forward to waves of daylight and darkness rushing into every scenerio.
That said, I'll accept that they're being opened up. I would still like to see some compensation to those who recieved the boons though (ie What Kyle said above). My Aasimar guntank/Hellknight just became a bit less unique...

The DMs getting the boons is a nice thing; it clears up that whole Quest for Perfection pt 3 problem. It does make things curious though how it interacts with Eyes of the Ten...

All in all, not too thrilled, but not too upset either. Mostly just one big "Meh"

Daniel Luckett wrote:

Some people really like to play with Godmode on. It doesn't make them wrong

Actually it certainly does in a group based game. Other players are robbed of challenge and outshined. Only in a single player video game is god mode is harmless.

I'll remember that when I show up with a level 7 34 str druid with pounce, 5+ attacks per round, full caster abilities and a pet that also pounces with 5+ attacks per round.

Or I'll just remake my current character as a regular summoner. My eidolon will still do everything my character was doing before, with the bonus of me standing behind him, invisible, throwing buffs and CC.

On the other hand, it's very disheartening to see people gleefully creating builds meant, whether consciously or not, to marginalize other people participating in a team-based game.

I'd like you contact your local police dept about the man holding the gun to your head demanding you sit down next to a summoner. If it was so horrible that someone now has the "right" to be a jerk because the class was banned, then why pray tell didn't you speak with your feet, or better yet actually speak to the person about how you felt about playing with them prior to the banning?

Fair enough. But at least the 7/7 fighter had no skill points, even worse at intimidate/any social skill compared to the synthesist who had it all. Free points are free points. And for the record, my tiefling ranger is a total jerk to everyone who admits to being the dumbest tiefling ever.

And +1 to what Cheapy said.

and that same fighter with 7/7 should not be allowed to come up with strategic plans and ambushes. Just because his player would think of something, doesn't mean his character should get to think it. The fighter player comes up with a solution to a puzzle or an ambush tactic---should have to roll with their character to see if their character could think of it (since that character doesn't have average wis or int)

Even people who dumped stats can just rebuild as a fragile sorcerer/oracle/normal summoner and still be awesome. Multiclassed characters kind of get screwed though.

It's disheartening how quickly some turn to being a jerk even when the leadership has vindicated their point of view. You'd think that the loss of one's character would be enough of a blow without having someone verbally rub salt into the wound.

If you think I'm being a jerk, flag my posts. I was showing support for what i feel was a good call Paizo made. {EDIT: Though I have to admit i was making large assumptions on the reasoning behind the ability score ruling.)

Game balance shouldn't be something only Game Devs and GMs concern themselves with. Players are still part of the group sitting at the table. Just because something obviously OP made it past the Devs, doesn't mean players are absolved from culpability when they take advantage of it!

Seriously folks, speak calmly and politely to one another or don't speak at all.