Guide 4.2 and Changes to Pathfinder Society Organized Play

Mischief Mondragon wrote:

Quick question which may already have been addressed (I apologize if so). I am planning to go to my first PFS game on the 11th of August and want to know if when I create my character I use the new ruleset or the old one. If I am to use the new rules can I play one of the new races or do I need to wait 5 more days and then create a second new character? Thanks in advance.

Hello, and welcome.

Mike has asked that we continue using the 4.1 Guide until August 16th.

Mike wrote:

Please do not use us gettting everyone a preview copy of the new guide to talk about early, as a way to skirt the rules to create a character with the new races or the like. If this starts happening, I will be less inclined to release the Guide early next year.

So, you'd need a physical boon to play an aasimar, tiefling, or tengu this side of Gen Con.

CRobledo wrote:

Well, since the new guide also allows 1st character retraining, just make your character with the current rules, and then rebuild him as the intended race on the 16th.

That's not a bad choice, but be careful. A lot of people have switched from, say, human to tiefling, and forgotten to take away all the bonuses that humans enjoy, like the extra skill rank or feat. If you're going to go this route, I'd recommend reconstructing the PC from scratch when you rebuild.

Herolab is VERY helpful there. I'm going to redo my wizard to something more infernal but having to wait till the 16th is the only problem I have because HL helps rebalance everything else

Herolab is VERY helpful there. I'm going to redo my wizard to something more infernal but having to wait till the 16th is the only problem I have because HL helps rebalance everything else

Hero Lab is awesome and I love it to death for character creation, but it is not infallible. You still need to know the rules even when using the software.

Todd Morgan wrote:

Remember, to play a new race, you have to have the material on hand. So go get an ARG and Blood of Angels and make those characters!

Todd, aasimars and tieflings are in Bestiary I, yes? And that's part of the core assumption?

I've felt bad over the past year, GMing at conventions and helping the convention staff distribute racial boons to people who don't own the bestiaries. I felt like we were telling them: "here's something really cool for your next character. By the way, it'll cost you money if you want to use it." I felt better when they won some boon like devil-slayer.

It was pointed out to me that aasimar and tieflings are in bestiary I, so they don't need to buy anything to play theose races. (Tengu are in bestiary II, which is not part of the core assumption. If somebody wants to play a Tengu, she'll need to bring a legal copy of that race to the table.)

You need the appropriate book to use any of the material that's not included in the Bestiary entries. such as the alternate heritages from Blood of Angels.

You need the appropriate book to use any of the material that's not included in the Bestiary entries. such as the alternate heritages from Blood of Angels.

Chris Mortika wrote:

Todd Morgan wrote:

Remember, to play a new race, you have to have the material on hand. So go get an ARG and Blood of Angels and make those characters!

Todd, aasimars and tieflings are in Bestiary I, yes? And that's part of the core assumption?

Chris,

The Player's Core Assumption includes the Core Rulebook, Pathfinder Society Field Guide, and the Guide to Organized Play. As a player, anything outside of those three documents require the player to bring the book/rules to the game.

Bolding Kyle's post for clarity on this; GM assumption does not = Player assumption.

I believe that anyone who wishes to play one of the new 3 exotic races will need a bestiary, or appropriate source with them.

The PFS Additional Resources will be updated soon I take it?

Kyle, Walter,

I'm not doubting you in regards to the about-to-be-open races. But, I'm not sure that's true in general.

I've had several summoners and summon nature's ally druids sit at my tables, and they have non-official sources for summoned critters. (Usually, they have the stats with the benefits of Augment Summons, or the modifications for celestial already factored in.)

Hell, I'll cop to bringing in the adjusted stats for my summoner's extraplanar monsters but usually not the physical bestiary.

Are you saying that a tengu summoner who brings in a bunch of celestial bison needs the official source for her tengu, but not for the summoned critters?

Are you saying that a tengu summoner who brings in a bunch of celestial bison needs the official source for her tengu, but not for the summoned critters?

Yes. The summoning spell details the legal creatures, the stats of which the GM is assumed to have access. So long as the summoning spell is from a core assumption book, the player need not provide the book, as there is a limited list. If the player wished to summon from an expanded list made legal in an AP or other source, she would need to provide that source.

If a player asks to borrow my Bestiary for their summoning focused character, they are going to get one hell of an evil eye.

If you play a summoning character at the very least you should have cards for all the things you're going to summon.

IF you have an IOS or Android device... get the Summoner App.

If a player asks to borrow my Bestiary for their summoning focused character, they are going to get one hell of an evil eye.

Above and beyond the normal evil eye you give to your players?

Kyle Baird wrote:

If a player asks to borrow my Bestiary for their summoning focused character, they are going to get one hell of an evil eye.

Above and beyond the normal evil eye you give to your players?

Yes. My normal evil eye lasts up to 5 hours. This one has the duration "permanent" and stacks with the normal evil eye. If you want, I can show you some time.

If you play a summoning character at the very least you should have cards for all the things you're going to summon.

Right. My apologies for not being clear.

So, if I (somehow) summon a tiefling, I don't need to bring the legal sourced pages. (I can bring "cards".) That's because it's a finite list.

But if I play a no-bells-nor-whistles tiefling, I need to bring the Bestiary page. That's even though "tiefling" is a list of 1.

That makes no sense.

The PFS Additional Resources will be updated soon I take it?

I believe last I heard the next update is scheduled for Aug 15th.

If a player asks to borrow my Bestiary for their summoning focused character, they are going to get one hell of an evil eye.

No doubt, mine as well. But legally they don't need it. If they're summoning focused, though? Yeah, they should not only have the resource, but have the stats of what they summon ready to go

LazarX wrote:

If you play a summoning character at the very least you should have cards for all the things you're going to summon.

Right. My apologies for not being clear.

So, if I (somehow) summon a tiefling, I don't need to bring the legal sourced pages. (I can bring "cards".) That's because it's a finite list.

But if I play a no-bells-nor-whistles tiefling, I need to bring the Bestiary page. That's even though "tiefling" is a list of 1.

That makes no sense.

I'm not aware of any spell in the core assumption that has tiefling on the list. I'm talking about the spell. If the spell is a summoning spell that gives a list of creatures, and that spell is in the core assumption, then because the list is in the core assumptions it suffices legally so that they don't need the other resource (though, as Kyle pointed out, they better have the stats ready).

That makes no sense.

Sometimes, life just doesn't make sense.

The Guide isn't made to cover every single corner-case possible. If it did, then it would bloat to 100-200 pages long. The current rule, which I personally think is a fairly good one, is that Player's can assume a GM knows things about the Core Rulebook, the Guide to PFS, and Pathfinder Society Field Guide. Other than those three sources (as well as spells/abilities derived from those sources) the player needs to bring the book.

As a courtesy however, most players should bring a Bestiary if they plan on summoning things, but it isn't required.

Honestly though a summoning focused character "should" have their own beastiary from which they create the cards for their summons, which you better have prepared between the round you declare you are summoning and your next action when they appear (as im not holding up the game while someone writes out their summons stats)

A character requires all the resources that they are using for their character that come from outside the players core assumption, its not a hard thing to do, I bought a hard cover ARG and atm I have no intentions of using it, I will also buy blood of fiends and angels when I can find them even though I dont actually plan to build a tiefling or Aasimar. I do this to familarise myself with rules outside the core just incase someone brings something to the table that they dont actually understand very well, (which does happen as people get alot of internet advice on builds but then arent 100% sure where everything comes from meaning math errors will creep in as they level up, usually meaning the players stats are lower than normal).

As a courtesy however, most players should bring a Bestiary if they plan on summoning things, but it isn't required.

Well, if I'm the GM the player had better be ready fairly quickly with the stats for creatures that he summons when his initiative comes up or his character is going to be "delaying" a lot. If its convenient I'll lend him my bestiary but only if convenient.

I'll wait a little bit but I'm not going to wait 5 minutes as the player decides which animal to summon, tries to borrow a bestiary, looks up its stats, calculates the bonuses, etc etc etc. And I'm most certainly far too busy to do all that for him.

Helaman wrote:

The PFS Additional Resources will be updated soon I take it?

I believe last I heard the next update is scheduled for Aug 15th.

I hope the update is on the 13th or 14th AT THE LATEST. I'm traveling to Gencon on the 15th and will not have computer access once I leave home. (Some of us don't have laptops.)

Calm down, Keht, he was probably just primed to see jerkiness by somebody earlier in the thread.

This guy said his synthesist wasn't overpowered and that now he would just have make a new character to trivialize all the encounters: causing a problem to demonstrate that he wasn't causing a problem before.

I was explicitly told, off list, some weeks ago that they would be very happy once my class was banned on the 6th due to it being overpowered. That and the initial statement barring stat reallocation had me somewhat irritated. I was contemplating bringing a truly overpowered character in to give them a proper frame of reference. An optimized archer or druid.

The only thing I was good at combat wise was survival. I did very little damage. We are talking one swing a round with a sword and a 16 strength, no power attack, no arcane strike. I barely broke DR on skeletons. I did have a fairly well rounded set of knowledge and social skills.

I have rebuilt as a magus. While not explicitly built to trivialize content, he will put out significantly more damage than my synthesist while maintaining a higher AC. I just wish the magus had more knowledge skills as class skills.

Take Boat wrote:

Calm down, Keht, he was probably just primed to see jerkiness by somebody earlier in the thread.

This guy said his synthesist wasn't overpowered and that now he would just have make a new character to trivialize all the encounters: causing a problem to demonstrate that he wasn't causing a problem before.

I was explicitly told, off list, some weeks ago that they would be very happy once my class was banned on the 6th due to it being overpowered. That and the initial statement barring stat reallocation had me somewhat irritated. I was contemplating bringing a truly overpowered character in to give them a proper frame of reference. An optimized archer or druid.

The only thing I was good at combat wise was survival. I did very little damage. We are talking one swing a round with a sword and a 16 strength, no power attack, no arcane strike. I barely broke DR on skeletons. I did have a fairly well rounded set of knowledge and social skills.

I have rebuilt as a magus. While not explicitly built to trivialize content, he will put out significantly more damage than my synthesist while maintaining a higher AC. I just wish the magus had more knowledge skills as class skills.

With a high intellect, class skills become less relevant. My new bomb-throwing non-sneak attacking alchemist has gained a few points of intellect, and now has a fully stacked Knowledge (Planes) that is going to be much higher than most, just because he can afford placing the skill points and has such a bonus coming off of it.

Also, haters gonna hate. ;D

Honestly though a summoning focused character "should" have their own beastiary from which they create the cards for their summons, which you better have prepared between the round you declare you are summoning and your next action when they appear (as im not holding up the game while someone writes out their summons stats)

A character requires all the resources that they are using for their character that come from outside the players core assumption, its not a hard thing to do, I bought a hard cover ARG and atm I have no intentions of using it, I will also buy blood of fiends and angels when I can find them even though I dont actually plan to build a tiefling or Aasimar. I do this to familarise myself with rules outside the core just incase someone brings something to the table that they dont actually understand very well, (which does happen as people get alot of internet advice on builds but then arent 100% sure where everything comes from meaning math errors will creep in as they level up, usually meaning the players stats are lower than normal).

There's actually a very nice pdf of summoning cards available by a third party on paizo's website. There's a set for summon monster and for summon nature's ally. They include both the normal and augmented stats and for monster also fiendish and celestial templates. So you really don't even have to build the cards yourself. They're what I use, on the rare occasions when my summoner actually summons something. ;)

There's actually a very nice pdf of summoning cards available by a third party on paizo's website. There's a set for summon monster and for summon nature's ally. They include both the normal and augmented stats and for monster also fiendish and celestial templates. So you really don't even have to build the cards yourself. They're what I use, on the rare occasions when my summoner actually summons something. ;)

I have been playing around with building my own cards using the Magic Set Editor.

bigwave wrote:

While it was nice to see the pre-gen chronicle rules for scenarios and modules condensed and unified, they are still vague on one key point. They say if you use a pre-gen of higher than 1st level you can either apply it to a brand new PC or hold it "until his character reaches the level of the pregenerated character". Is the character referred to as "his character" (a) a newly created PC (just saving the chronicle to apply later), or (b) any other of their PCs?

If it's the first Chronicle for the character, I'd say "A." If it's the second or later Chronicle, then it should be "B."

Isn't that kind of saying if you apply it to new PC "a" then the rule is "a", but if you apply it to existing PB "b" then the rule is "b"? I mean, I hope you're right that we CAN apply the pre-gen chronicle to an existing PC, butthe wording isn't really clear on that (to me). (Plus, you could theoretically apply rule "b" (keeping the chronicle until later) to new PC "a", too.)

I guess my point/request is for a Power That Be to clarify : can you apply a chronicle from playing a non-1st level pre-gen to ANY PC (once that PC reaches the appropriate level)?

So why was Viv. Alchemist banned?

Like 8 people have asked, no official response. They're not overpowered, and flavor wise vivvisection in the mideval period was critical to the understanding of anatomy and biological sciences, it doesn't have to be evil, no more so than a necro wizard draining the life out of someone by spamming enervation spells.

Why was it banned?

I get the others (synth is misplaced; it makes melee classes look like garbage but it is actually weaker than normal summoner, so banning it for being OP is just kind of funny), but Viv. makes no sense.

This is why: Vivisection

Sounds like sitting at one of your tables Kyle.

Sounds like sitting at one of your tables Kyle.

You know, I don't know why Kyle gets such a bad reputation. I bet he hasn't killed half the PCs that Chalfon Dalsine has :)

Brendan Missio wrote:

Sounds like sitting at one of your tables Kyle.

You know, I don't know why Kyle gets such a bad reputation. I bet he hasn't killed half the PCs that Chalfon Dalsine has :)

I have never met Kyle Baird but I have a buddy whos character was a victim of his at a past GenCon :)

Brendan Missio wrote:

Sounds like sitting at one of your tables Kyle.

You know, I don't know why Kyle gets such a bad reputation. I bet he hasn't killed half the PCs that Chalfon Dalsine has :)

You know, I bet Chalfon and I are pretty close. If I get to count PC deaths for Rats Part 1 and the deaths that happen at Gen Con Saturday night, I bet I've got him beat. ;-)

Alex Greenshields wrote:

Brendan Missio wrote:

Sounds like sitting at one of your tables Kyle.

You know, I don't know why Kyle gets such a bad reputation. I bet he hasn't killed half the PCs that Chalfon Dalsine has :)

You know, I bet Chalfon and I are pretty close. If I get to count PC deaths for Rats Part 1 and the deaths that happen at Gen Con Saturday night, I bet I've got him beat. ;-)

You guys really brag about this?

I'm sticking with my home game, bye PFS. I don't need this kind of hassle.

-- david
Papa.DRB

It's in good fun, Papa.DRB.

Kyle Baird wrote:

Alex Greenshields wrote:

Brendan Missio wrote:

Sounds like sitting at one of your tables Kyle.

You know, I don't know why Kyle gets such a bad reputation. I bet he hasn't killed half the PCs that Chalfon Dalsine has :)

You know, I bet Chalfon and I are pretty close. If I get to count PC deaths for Rats Part 1 and the deaths that happen at Gen Con Saturday night, I bet I've got him beat. ;-)

You guys really brag about this?

I'm sticking with my home game, bye PFS. I don't need this kind of hassle.

-- david
Papa.DRB

As much as I brag about my characters being unkillable and smiting Jiggy's tiefling some day in Minneapolis. It's all tongue and cheek and if you can't understand that, I'm sorry.

As a proud multi-time survivor of Kyle's table .. his reputation is blown out of proportion.. just saying .. he needs the forums to inflate his sense of self worth and stroke an ego that is really non-existent. I mean, he's an ok judge ... but his rules knowledge in a pinch really leaves a lot to be desired, he makes gross error in his rulings and honestly I think that most characters die on his tables due to bad judge calls from not knowing the rules rather than any fault of the player.

sorry Kyle, it was time to tell the true (and your last blackmail payment was late, really late.. and the one before that was short)

You know, I bet Chalfon and I are pretty close. If I get to count PC deaths for Rats Part 1 and the deaths that happen at Gen Con Saturday night, I bet I've got him beat. ;-)

He might, but do you have a whole THREAD dedicated to cataloging the depths of your atrocities? ;)

--END OF THREADJACK--

Ok, tongue in cheek I understand.

I was involved heavily in Living City back in the early 1990's, mostly as a player but as an occasional DM in ConnCon and GenCon and one other CT/MA Con that I can't remember the name of. I heard this kind of crap back then, and had a character killed just because the DM had a fight with his wife that morning and was out to kill someone, regardless of the rules. Your post brought back memories and my post was a visceral response to it.

Now that I have had a chance to cool down, and have a shot of a good single malt, I'm a bit better. Sorry for the ruckus.

-- david
Papa.DRB

Papa-DRB wrote:

Kyle Baird wrote:

Alex Greenshields wrote:

Brendan Missio wrote:

Sounds like sitting at one of your tables Kyle.

You know, I don't know why Kyle gets such a bad reputation. I bet he hasn't killed half the PCs that Chalfon Dalsine has :)

You know, I bet Chalfon and I are pretty close. If I get to count PC deaths for Rats Part 1 and the deaths that happen at Gen Con Saturday night, I bet I've got him beat. ;-)

You guys really brag about this?

I'm sticking with my home game, bye PFS. I don't need this kind of hassle.

-- david
Papa.DRB

As much as I brag about my characters being unkillable and smiting Jiggy's tiefling some day in Minneapolis. It's all tongue and cheek and if you can't understand that, I'm sorry.

Ok, tongue in cheek I understand.

I was involved heavily in Living City back in the early 1990's, mostly as a player but as an occasional DM in ConnCon and GenCon and one other CT/MA Con that I can't remember the name of..-]

Me too. I was stationed at the Coast Guard Academy from 1993-2000 so attended ConnCon every year, as well as other cons in NJ, NY, AND MA. I was a LC nut, as well as involved with the Heroes of Rhibus campaign. It is likely we played at the same tables. Welcome to PFS.

As a proud multi-time survivor of Kyle's table .. his reputation is blown out of proportion.. just saying

Silence you! Fear me!!!

Whatever, you only survive my tables because you bake.

Aha! So there is a way to access the easy setting!
Hungry Baird
...seems way more scary than...
Fed Baird.

I guess my point/request is for a Power That Be to clarify : can you apply a chronicle from playing a non-1st level pre-gen to ANY PC (once that PC reaches the appropriate level)?

Yes.

If you play a non-1st-level pregenerated character, you can apply the credit to your character as soon as she reaches the level of the pregenerated character played. You may also opt instead to apply the credit from the non-1st-level pregenerated character played to a newly created character with the GP gained reduced to 500 GP (or 250 for characters using the slow advancement track). You do not lose access to Prestige Points, boons, and items listed on the Chronicle sheet that were earned during the adventure.

(Emphasis mine) It doesn't get much more explicit than that.

bigwave wrote:

I guess my point/request is for a Power That Be to clarify : can you apply a chronicle from playing a non-1st level pre-gen to ANY PC (once that PC reaches the appropriate level)?

Yes.

Guide to Pathfinder Organized Play, v.4.2 wrote:

If you play a non-1st-level pregenerated character, you can apply the credit to your character as soon as she reaches the level of the pregenerated character played. You may also opt instead to apply the credit from the non-1st-level pregenerated character played to a newly created character with the GP gained reduced to 500 GP (or 250 for characters using the slow advancement track). You do not lose access to Prestige Points, boons, and items listed on the Chronicle sheet that were earned during the adventure.

(Emphasis mine) It doesn't get much more explicit than that.

Actually, I believe there is a little confusion here.

Bigwave, when you play the pregen you have to fill out the tracking sheet for the game and indicate which PC will get the credit for that game. As in PFS#-1 or PFS#-2, etc.

The PC you choose does not have to exist yet, but you do have to choose one. If it is a new PC then you can apply the Chronicle adjusted for level 1 immediately. Or I suppose, you could hold the Chronicle until that particular PC reaches the level of the pregen played. In either case, you must choose the PC to apply the Chronicle to when you fill out the tracking sheet for the game.

The only exception to this rule is if the pregen dies permanently in the game. You either loose the PC you decided to assign the Chronicle to immediately, or you may change the PC you listed on the tracking sheet to a new PC number which is then reported as dead on the tracking sheet.

If I might add to Don's post on the technical side...

When you created a new character (-2, -3, etc) You don't have to enter a final name. For example the slot now 'holding' Dexios was originally called "Placeholder MM" You can change the name up to 10 posts with that character.

I also called that slot "Schroedinger's PC" because 'he' was just a bunch of chronicles until I finally settled on an inquisitor.

Whatever, you only survive my tables because you bake.

As another survivor, I too will add that Kyle is not full of hot air. He was OUT FOR BLOOD!

Kyle Baird wrote:

Whatever, you only survive my tables because you bake.

As another survivor, I too will add that Kyle is not full of hot air. He was OUT FOR BLOOD!

Or brownies!

Ryan Bolduan wrote:

Kyle Baird wrote:

Whatever, you only survive my tables because you bake.

As another survivor, I too will add that Kyle is not full of hot air. He was OUT FOR BLOOD!

Or brownies!

Monkey bread ;)

Me too. I was stationed at the Coast Guard Academy from 1993-2000 so attended ConnCon every year, as well as other cons in NJ, NY, AND MA. I was a LC nut, as well as involved with the Heroes of Rhibus campaign. It is likely we played at the same tables. Welcome to PFS.

Are you going to ConnCon next year? :)

Mike

Mike/Mark I don't know if you're going to make a seperate thread on the boards area for changes in 4.3 but I'd like to see it legal for people to apply credit to a 1st level PC with higher level pre-gens but ONLY for consecutive mods played. I don't know if that's pushing the envelope too much

Mike

If I might add to Don's post on the technical side...

When you created a new character (-2, -3, etc) You don't have to enter a final name. For example the slot now 'holding' Dexios was originally called "Placeholder MM" You can change the name up to 10 posts with that character.

I also called that slot "Schroedinger's PC" because 'he' was just a bunch of chronicles until I finally settled on an inquisitor.

Oh. My. God.

Suddenly my understanding of physics has just blossomed unimaginably! 8263-17 is both a paladin and a cleric of rovagug at the same time! All of my GM credits exist in a state of quantum flux...characters and anticharacters in equal and opposite reactions...up down charm strange quarks (which are quarter orcs for the record...since I play about equal amounts of humans and half-orcs)...tiny vibrating strings form the basis for EVERYTHING (maybe if I get a magnifying glass and look at the pencil marks real close)...

/Matthew, you're my hero!
//I don't actually have 17 characters. Yet.
///I hope I just made a physicist's head explode.
////I hope it was Schroedinger! Who's both alive and dead now, huh?

Kyle, I dare you to kill my tiefling.

After I have some prestige saved up...

Kyle, I dare you to kill my tiefling.

After I have some prestige saved up...

Learn from Aaron...it won't be enough.