Mutagens and Use Magic Device

An alchemist's Mutagen can be used by any Alchemist.
Could/should a non-Alchemist be able to Use Magic Device to "Emulate a Class Feature" to be able to use a Mutagen?
RAW, I'm thinking probably not, since a Mutagen isn't technically a magic item. RAI, I don't know.
(And it definitely wouldn't work on Extracts, since only their creator can use them.)

The problem is that the mutagen isn't a separate magic item apart from the alchemist.

Mutagens draw from the alchemist's own innate magic and separated from him they're just jars of swish. there is literally nothing to UMD with.

The problem is that the mutagen isn't a separate magic item apart from the alchemist.

Mutagens draw from the alchemist's own innate magic and separated from him they're just jars of swish. there is literally nothing to UMD with.

No, that's extracts. Mutagens can be separated from the alchemist, and even used by another alchemist (though they go inert if the creator makes a new mutagen).

An alchemist's Mutagen can be used by any Alchemist.

Could/should a non-Alchemist be able to Use Magic Device to "Emulate a Class Feature" to be able to use a Mutagen?
RAW, I'm thinking probably not, since a Mutagen isn't technically a magic item. RAI, I don't know.
(And it definitely wouldn't work on Extracts, since only their creator can use them.)

Interesting question.

I think it's a grey area. UMD allows you to emulate a class feature. In this case, the feature you are trying to emulate is Mutagen(Su). By PRD, a roll of 20+ means that you are emulating that feature as if you were an alchemist of level (UMD Roll - 20).

It appears to be a valid use. UMD is by it's very nature the character using his own force of will to fool a magic device into working for him as though he was qualified to use it. A Mutagen being Su should qualify as a "magic device" (As opposed to being (Ex), which would indicate non-magical-ness).

So what you are doing is saying "I am an Alchemist", to yourself, with such conviction that when you pick up that mutagen, it activates as though you genuinely are an alchemist. The amount of time that a mutagen will work would be equal to 10 minutes x your impersonated level. (This would also imply that an alchemist with UMD could imbibe his own mutagen, and emulate an alchemist with a higher caster level than he is currently at, giving him additional effective time.)

I hate answering "in my game...", but I would allow such, while I would leave it to the devs for a cut-and-dried answer.

Sounds plausible enough for me, though.

Very interesting question.

Per the PFSRD:

A non-alchemist who drinks a mutagen must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + 1/2 the alchemist’s level + the alchemist’s Intelligence modifier) or become nauseated for 1 hour— a non-alchemist can never gain the benefit of a mutagen, but an alchemist can gain the effects of another alchemist’s mutagen if he drinks it. (Although if the other alchemist creates a different mutagen, the effects of the “stolen” mutagen immediately cease.)

It would seem that alchemist resonates supernatural to make the magics work (this ability is supernatural and not spell-like after all).

I think I like the flavor of allowing someone being able to use the mutagen if they have invested enough ranks in UMD, but per the rules I don't think it is allowed.

I also want to point this out:

An alchemist can only maintain one dose of mutagen at a time—if he brews a second dose, any existing mutagen becomes inert.

Even thought this is not an extract, it follows the same flavor, unlike a true magic device.

This makes me think it would not be allowed... I am curious to see what more people think.

I'd say no to this. I mean you can't use the skill UMD to cast wizard spells so why should be able to use that skill to use the Alchemists Mutagen. Both are class features not magic items.

I'd say no to this. I mean you can't use the skill UMD to cast wizard spells so why should be able to use that skill to use the Alchemists Mutagen. Both are class features not magic items.

But, you're not using UMD to create the mutagen (which would be analogous to casting a spell). You're using UMD to emulate the Alchemist class feature that allows them use another Alchemist's mutgen.

voska66 wrote:

I'd say no to this. I mean you can't use the skill UMD to cast wizard spells so why should be able to use that skill to use the Alchemists Mutagen. Both are class features not magic items.

But, you're not using UMD to create the mutagen (which would be analogous to casting a spell). You're using UMD to emulate the Alchemist class feature that allows them use another Alchemist's mutgen.

I still think it fails, RAW, because a mutagen isn't defined as a "magic item". But it's awfully close to one. If I was DMing I might allow it, but require an "activate blindly" roll (DC 25) instead.

There's the sticking point. It's not defined as a magic item. It's (Su), which strongly implies magic, but it's right there on the edge. I think the Devs would probably go either way, but unless they speak up, who knows.

(Hit the FAQ button? As if that helps... It's like hitting the elevator button multiple times. Or hitting the button for the crosswalk signal. I swear those aren't actually connected to anything.)

(Hit the FAQ button? As if that helps... It's like hitting the elevator button multiple times. Or hitting the button for the crosswalk signal. I swear those aren't actually connected to anything.)

I've done so, for the original post. Hey, sometimes FAQs are answered. Although to be fair, this Q hasn't really been A'd very F yet. :)

As a PFS judge I'd say that there is not sufficient support in the rules text of UMD to support such a maneuver. An extract unlike the items that UMD is INTENDED for use is not a complete magic item in and of itself... it's more like an extended spell cast or magical effect, or even just merely a "spellcasting component", hence it is not a device.

As a PFS judge I'd say that there is not sufficient support in the rules text of UMD to support such a maneuver. An extract unlike the items that UMD is INTENDED for use is not a complete magic item in and of itself... it's more like an extended spell cast or magical effect, or even just merely a "spellcasting component", hence it is not a device.

I agree. Barring a ruling from the devs, I'd not allow it in PFS.

In a home campaign, I'd be inclined to allow it, as it seems a creative use of the skill that fits with the flavor of the skill.

LazarX wrote:

As a PFS judge I'd say that there is not sufficient support in the rules text of UMD to support such a maneuver. An extract unlike the items that UMD is INTENDED for use is not a complete magic item in and of itself... it's more like an extended spell cast or magical effect, or even just merely a "spellcasting component", hence it is not a device.

I agree. Barring a ruling from the devs, I'd not allow it in PFS.

In a home campaign, I'd be inclined to allow it, as it seems a creative use of the skill that fits with the flavor of the skill.

Not everything creative should be allowed just because it's "creative". It definitely does NOT fit in flavor of the skill which is about maneuvring magical devices... not jars of volatile liquid.