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Somewhat, probably. But again, which skill or amount of hitpoints turns me into a Cloud Giant or makes me invisible? Almost anything a skill can do, a low level spell can do better. Especially if you know the spell and don't have to UMD it.
There simply isn't, but in my Campaign, skill points are far more effective than hit points, or even spells for that matter. In the situations that I put my players in, skills help them "defeat" all sorts of baddies...
Of course, you are exaggerating a bit. I do not know of a low level spell that turns you into a cloud giant. ^_^ In my meager opinion, I think this plays right into the versatility of the Human race. I actually like it! Sure it makes the Sorcerer much more utilitarian, but it lends much flavor...
I have been waiting for this book for a long time, and am not disappointed. Things will become a more comprehensive picture once the book comes out. Can't wait... *drool*
I am a very big fan of choice when it comes to game design.
Growing up as a lad in Wisconsin, Jason always chose Pikachu!
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A wise man once said "One option in one book does not power creep make".
That being said I don't think its nearly as unbalanced and game breaking as some of you are making it out to be, but I think it comes down to individual play styles. Is it a better choice for the human sorcerer? Maybe, but I dont hear people complaining that taking the HP over the skill point is game breaking, even though the general sense I get is that in most situations the HP is more useful. And do I think the human sorcerer has lost out by not taking this for a favored class bonus? Not at all. So this aligns up with Jason talking about choice and options. If you think its unbalanced, dont allow it, but that does NOT mean its broken.
I disagree that it is a mischaracterization.
Yeah, balance is most certainly a matter of perspective.
But we are not simply asking "is the sorcerer still under the level of completely broken?" we are asking "is this an equivalent power to gaining 1 hp per level?"At first through third levels, this ability might as well not exist.
At fourth level, I'm trying to decide if -1 hp is worth taking my 4th-most-wanted 1st level spell. It probably is.
At fifth level, I'm trying to decide if -1 hp is worth my sixth-most-wanted spell. I don't think it would be.
At sixth level, I'm trying to decide if it's worth -1 hp to get my 3rd-most-wanted second-level spell. Oh, definitely.
At seventh level, it's now -1 hp for my fifth-most-wanted spell. I'm not so sure.
Are you seeing the pattern here?
You have not demonstrated that these spells are worth less than 1 hp, you are simply declaring it.
Would you suggest that there are not 5 worthwhile 2nd level spells for a 7th level sorcerer? I would "suggest" that there are. And having all five of them, rather than having to select just three sounds like a very nice bean. (I'd suggest there are well more than 5, btw) And there are quite a lot of good utility L1 spells to go around as well.
Please feel free to show me a list that I can't substantively add to.
Look at the math this way:
Take any sorcerer you want with the +1 HP favored class option.
Now, trade that option for +1 spell / level AND trade your worst feat for toughness. You just traded your worst feat for an extra spell known at every single level. Now, if that is balanced, then the mystery "extra spell" feat in the book must also provide the equivalent of a spell at every level, or else it is weaker than whatever the weakest feat you would have taken is. Does that sound like power creep?
Or look at it another way.
Again, lets assume that whatever the mystery feat is, you GM lets you take it an unlimited number of times. The details or power level don't matter to this example, be it trash or insanely broken.
One character is built with the +1 HP/level option and takes this feat at every level.
Another character is built with the +1 spell/level option, takes toughness as his human bonus feat and THEN takes the mystery feat for every feat for the rest of his career. At 5th level both characters would be identical expect +HP guy gets whatever the mystery feat offers at L1 and +Spell guy gets 3 L0 spells, 2 L1 Spells. At 8th level + spell guys gets 3 L0 spells, 2 L1 Spells, 2 L2 Spells, and 1 L3 spell, while +HP guy still only gains whatever the mystery feat offers at L1. At L20 +spells guys gets 3 L0 Spells, 2 L1 through L7 spells, and 3 L8 spells, while +HP guy still only gains whatever the mystery feat offers at L1.
Does mystery feat match that? Does that match toughness?
It doesn't have to send the game flying out of orbit to be 'out of balance". And, again, power creep is a bad thing. Sure, there are people who love overpowered stuff. But I've heard a lot of complaints about power creep over the life cycle of 3X and about PF right out of the gate. And I've never heard anyone call it good, or heard a positive label for the same thing. Even people who like it simply deny it and claim it is "equitable but optimized" or somesuch.
I could make a spell exactly like fireball except it does acid damage and is level 2. And I could simply insist that it is ok because a) I tested it and acid just ain't as good as it looks on paper, and b) it is my perspective that it is balanced. There is nothing wrong with saying "hey, knock yourself out, enjoy it." But there is something wrong with actually pretending that this can be called equivalent to the core game.
And my L2 acidball would not break the game. It would not send it flying out of orbit. But it wouldn't be balanced, it wouldn't improve the fun long term (short term, sure). And it would be very reasonable to call it bad power creep.
I'm sure there are several ways that a sorcerer could gain an additional spell at every single level and not be broken. Some trade off could be made. The idea itself is not implicitly flawed. But, calling it equal to toughness just doesn't stand up to serious inspection.
I just want to note that I love that favored class bonus for human sorcerers. So that it doesn't appear as if there's only opposition to it.
And yeah...I'd probably only take this at levels 4 and up. HP for the first 3! But after that it's a no brainer.
I dunno. It looks like a solid option on the even levels, but it's much less attractive on the sequent odd levels. Reducing my hit points by 17% to get additional 9th-choice spells doesn't seem all that ideal to me.
I disagree that it is a mischaracterization.
Yeah, balance is most certainly a matter of perspective.
But we are not simply asking "is the sorcerer still under the level of completely broken?" we are asking "is this an equivalent power to gaining 1 hp per level?"At first through third levels, this ability might as well not exist.
At fourth level, I'm trying to decide if -1 hp is worth taking my 4th-most-wanted 1st level spell. It probably is.
At fifth level, I'm trying to decide if -1 hp is worth my sixth-most-wanted spell. I don't think it would be.
At sixth level, I'm trying to decide if it's worth -1 hp to get my 3rd-most-wanted second-level spell. Oh, definitely.
At seventh level, it's now -1 hp for my fifth-most-wanted spell. I'm not so sure.
Are you seeing the pattern here?
OK, lets put it to the test. You show me a list of 3 L2 spells that I can’t add 2 more good choices to for a L7 sorcerer. I bet I can add 4. And that is *without* adding all the new spells from the new book to my options.
Lets look at the math a couple other ways:
Take any sorcerer with the +HP option. Now trade that out for the +spell option and also trade his weakest feat for toughness. His HP are unchanged AND he gets an additional spell known at every level in exchange for his weakest feat. So clearly, in order to be balanced, the mystery “extra spell” feat must provide the equivalent of a spell every level. Otherwise it is less powerful than whatever you weakest feat would have been.
Next, let’s make two sorcerers. The first will take the +1 hp option and will take the mystery “extra spell” feat as every single feat. It does not matter how much or how little this feat offers for this example. The second sorcerer will take the +spell option and will take toughness as his human bonus feat. After that he will also take the mystery feat for every single feat of his career.
Now, everything about these two characters is identical except one has the mystery feat one extra time (selected at first level) and the other has the +spell per level feature.
At 6th level extra spell guy will have 3 extra L0 spells, 2 extra L1 spells, and 1 extra L2 spell. At 6th level extra HP guy will have the bonus that the mystery feat gave at L1.
At 9th level extra spell guy will have 3 extra L0 spells, 2 extra L1 spells, and 2 extra L2 spells, and 2 extra L3 spells. At 9th level extra HP guy will have the bonus that the mystery feat gave at L1.
At 14th level extra spell guy will have 3 extra L0 spells, 2 extra L1 spells, and 2 extra L2 spells, and 2 extra L3 spells, 2 extra L4 spells, 2 extra L5 spells, and 1 extra L6 spell. At 14th level extra HP guy will have the bonus that the mystery feat gave at L1.
At 20th level extra spell guy will have 3 extra L0 spells, 2 extra spells at every level from 1 through 7 and 3 L8 spells. At 20th level extra HP guy will have the bonus that the mystery feat gave at L1.
Do you think mystery feat will keep these two characters equitable?
And if we leap to the presumption that mystery feat is balanced, then rationally switching out mystery feat for any other reasonable feat is logically identical. So the requirement of taking mystery feat over and over is not required for the example to work, it simple makes the example simple to see.
I am not saying that the idea of a sorcerer gaining an extra spell at every level is implicitly unbalanced. I’m sure it could be made to work. I am saying that trading out that feature for the equivalent to the toughness feat is a notable increase in power. It is serious power creep.
I have heard a lot of complaints against power creep over the life cycle of 3X. And I’ve heard plenty of complaints against power creep in PF right out of the gate. Demonstrating an aggressive attitude toward pushing onward with it is not a good thing. And I’ve never heard anyone describe the concept of power creep in a positive way. So, I very much think it should be avoided.
That is not to say I am claiming that everyone must play my way. But, saying something more powerful is not more powerful isn’t the same as just agreeing to play and let play. I could invent a new spell called acidball. It is identical to fireball, except is does acid damage and it is L2. I could claim that acidball is not overpowered because, a) acid may look good on paper, but in play it just doesn’t work out as well as fire, and B) it is my perspective on things. Now, it would be silly of anyone to tell me I can’t play that way. And it would be silly of me to suggest that anyone else shouldn’t play with this option. But it would also be irrational for anyone to agree that my acidball is at the same power level. Same here.
And it is certainly great to say, I like options, they are fun. And it can be fun to add in some new uber for a session or four. But if it was consistently fun, power creep would be praised. Power creep is so universally condemned because, even in just the medium term, it ends up eroding the fun of the game.
Is it appropriate to put a fix for a class in a supplemental book?
Well, preferably it would be in the core book, but given that the core book is already released, where else would it be placed?
I note that most of the comparisons here are "+1HP vs Additional Spell"...do most of you consider +1 HP to be a no brainer over +1 Skill point?
Because I don't, and none of those I game with feel that way either. And honestly, I'm not sure that I'd choose an additional spell over an additional skill point. There are some points at which I'd be tempted...but it would be a decision, not an automatic "this is clearly the superior option" for me.
Director of Games
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Yeah Bryon, I understand the point you are trying to make, but you are bringing flawed arguments to the table. The extra versatility is just that, an opportunity to do something more useful. You can spend a great deal of time finding feat equivalencies and trying to find a way to balance things that way, but the feat system is not the balance mechanic of the game as a whole, there are far too many other metrics.
Additional set spell choices become less valuable over time, nearly to the point of irrelevancy. Hit points and skill points work on a different metric entirely and maintain a higher level of usefulness. Comparing them using a third system (feat equivalencies) not only does not work very well, but leads you down some odd paths (not to mention the fact that there is no feat that grants skill ranks, just bonuses, which are two very different things).
All of that said... these options were designed to give a special bonus if your combinations added up right. That could certainly be considered power creep, but if it is, it is of a relatively minor and mostly inoffensive nature. The balor did not suddenly become any less deadly because the sorcerer had more spells to choose from. The odds increase that the sorcerer has the right spell to help defeat the balor, but that is about it. That is a good bump, but lets not take it out of proportion here.
Seeing as I need to get back to my next project, I am considering this particular matter closed for the time being.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
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Lots of stuff not important.
"One option in one book does not power creep make" Plus the sorcerer who takes toughness AND the extra HP will still have more. That will matter when despite all of your extra spells, you get hit, and end up dying because you were 15-20 HP short of where you could have been. Its all relative and comes down to play style as far as I see it.
OK, lets put it to the test. You show me a list of 3 L2 spells that I can’t add 2 more good choices to for a L7 sorcerer. I bet I can add 4. And that is *without* adding all the new spells from the new book to my options.
You're misinterpreting my argument. I'm not saying that there aren't more spells that would be useful. That's a nonissue - of course there are. What I'm saying is that a 7th level sorcerer has 3 3rd level spells known (two base plus one from bloodline) and, assuming she took the +1 spell known option at 6th, 5 2nd level spells (3 base plus 1 bloodline and 1 favored). The real power of the character is in those 3rd level spells; I'm suggesting that adding a 6th 2nd level spell known when she's most concerned with 3rd level spells and already has 5 2nd level is not necessarily a better option than +1 hp, especially since she's likely only getting ~4-5 hp a level, and thus is giving up 17%-20% of her hp to get it.
Lets look at the math a couple other ways:
The "math" is flawed, because a) we already know some feats are weaker than others, and so you're beginning from a false comparison, and b) you have no idea what the "mystery feat" looks like, so attempting to assess it against Toughness and/or the favored class option is at best circular, since you're making it up in order to argue against it - the definition of a straw man argument. We can discuss that end of things once the book is actually out and we can see whatever "Extraish Spell" feat Jason might have in store.
Lots of stuff not important.
Nice well presented rebuttal. Thanks.
"One option in one book does not power creep make"
I agree here and I hope that you are right. But the fact that this specific example is being portrayed as not any power creep at all does not bode well.
I've already been defending Paizo over at ENworld who felt that just simply adding the number of new feats was bad power creep in and of itself. And adding versatility does add some power. But, well balanced feats do not mean creep on their own. But when that is the starting point, any example of a drop of creep is going to shine. And when we only see 4 or 5 things and one is huge, that hurts even more. And when the creep is denied, that again hurts even more.
I'd really like to see more acceptance of PF, not see wavering people driven away. My efforts to sell it just went POOF.
Plus the sorcerer who takes toughness AND the extra HP will still have more. That will matter when despite all of your extra spells, you get hit, and end up dying because you were 15-20 HP short of where you could have been. Its all relative and comes down to play style as far as I see it.
I have seen this argument many way before and it doesn't hold up. A character can die because they didn't have dodge. A character can die because they didn't have spell penetration and just missed a CL roll against the monster that killed him later. Any balanced feat can be described as critical under some circumstance. If they are all balanced then these scenarios cancel out. If they aren't then that is a problem that should be remedied.
You can spend a great deal of time finding feat equivalencies and trying to find a way to balance things that way, but the feat system is not the balance mechanic of the game as a whole, there are far too many other metrics.
Seeing as I need to get back to my next project, I am considering this particular matter closed for the time being.
Jason Bulmahn
Lead Designer
Paizo Publishing
I completely respect that you don't owe me any response, so cool and thanks for taking the time.
As I said in the prior post, I don't claim this one thing is going to break the "game as a whole".
But when you can demonstrate that X+Y is greater than X, it is no longer a subjective matter. You have replaced X with X+Y. It is an increase. Calling it an increase is not the same as saying it alone will tear down the game. But it is still power creep.
Power creep is bad.
I can agree that a couple extra L1 spells has minimal impact on a 18th level character. But it isn't zero. And for more importantly, two extra spells at each of the three levels down adds up to a lot more then toughness, all the lower down levels still add some small weight to the scale, even if it is just gravy from there. Like I said in my very first post, 1 spell that stayed right at top level would be about right for a feat equivalent feature.
If the mystery feat does that, I'll like it.
If the mystery feat does a lot more then that I'll think it is potent, but we'll see.
If the mystery feat is anywhere near the order of this ability, I'll complain just the same.
You're misinterpreting my argument. I'm not saying that there aren't more spells that would be useful. That's a nonissue - of course there are. What I'm saying is that a 7th level sorcerer has 3 3rd level spells known (two base plus one from bloodline) and, assuming she took the +1 spell known option at 6th, 5 2nd level spells (3 base plus 1 bloodline and 1 favored). The real power of the character is in those 3rd level spells; I'm suggesting that adding a 6th 2nd level spell known when she's most concerned with 3rd level spells and already has 5 2nd level is not necessarily a better option than +1 hp, especially since she's likely only getting ~4-5 hp a level, and thus is giving up 17%-20% of her hp to get it.
No I understand. It appears you do not understand that I am rejecting your claim that 2nd level spells do not have any meaningful impact on the power of a 7th level sorcerer. I still invite you to offer a real example to demonstrate your claim to the contrary.
The "math" is flawed, because a) we already know some feats are weaker than others, and so you're beginning from a false comparison,
What weak feat did I use to describe the scenario? Please be specific.
and b) you have no idea what the "mystery feat" looks like, so attempting to assess it against Toughness and/or the favored class option is at best circular, since you're making it up in order to argue against it - the definition of a straw man argument. We can discuss that end of things once the book is actually out and we can see whatever "Extraish Spell" feat Jason might have in store.
No, I clearly described how the power of that feat is not relevant to the analysis.
Bryon, you appear to be stipulating that that value of the +1 spell known option is absolute, while I'm arguing that it is variable over levels. That makes the rest of your comparisons irrelevant, because you've skipped over what I'm suggesting is the most effective combination: choosing both from one level to the next. That it is the most effective combination would further suggest that the option is balanced over levels as well.
And, just for the heck of it, what if your "mystery feat" read as follows? "Every level, starting at the level you take this feat, you may permanently sacrifice one hit point to gain an additional spell known of a level one less than the maximum you can cast for the class you choose to know the spell for. This decision must be made while leveling, and cannot be changed thereafter." You see, it's purely hypothetical, and, in fact, also suffers the absolute/variable value problem - and thus, can't be accurately factored into this discussion.
Truth be told, however, this discussion has long since ceased to interest me. I'd much rather start complaining about the elven wizard favored class bonus. Seriously, Jason - you took the class/race combination with possibly the largest need for +1 hp every level and offered to swap it for something that does nothing the first time you take it, and is more-or-less meaningless by about 6th level?!
"Look, lady. I don't come down to where you work..."
yeah yeah
I've made my point. It's done now. :)
Byron, you appear to be stipulating that that value of the +1 spell known option is absolute, while I'm arguing that it is variable over levels. That makes the rest of your comparisons irrelevant, because you've skipped over what I'm suggesting is the most effective combination: choosing both from one level to the next. That it is the most effective combination would further suggest that the option is balanced over levels as well.
It's Bryon.
And making it an even better option does not make it less powerful, it makes it worse.
You are correct that I was assuming sticking with it for every single level. I run it that way in my own game for the existing options, pick at L1 and stick with it. (house rule, no argument)
Honestly, I think given an actual example, you would never find a level for which the HP would truly be better. But, if taking a spell every level is better then having the option to do that or something else is just even more potent.
As to adjusting the feat power, nope, I'm sorry, but the absolute power of the feat completely cancels out of the equation.
And now seriously, I'm done.
Byron,It's Bryon.
Corrected. Typo. :(
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Lots of stuff not important.Nice well presented rebuttal. Thanks.
I found it quite good, thank you for noticing and conceding :) Seriously though, I didn't need to break down your post point by point. I did it all in one fell swoop with my point. This is just an agree to disagree. 20+ hit points can be more useful than all the spells in the world sometimes.
And seriously, ENworld is the absolute WORST gaming community Ive ever seen, those guys are a+&@!#$s and hate EVERYTHING. I couldn't care less what they think over there.
And I still say this isn't power creep, and your arguments do nothing to sway me otherwise, just as mine cant sway you. Here in lies the fundamental key point: what something is and isn't is ENTIRELY in the mind of the person who is interpreting said thing.
I note that most of the comparisons here are "+1HP vs Additional Spell"...do most of you consider +1 HP to be a no brainer over +1 Skill point?
In a word, no. I almost always take the skill point. I like versatility.
I have to ask, too (not you specifically Ramarren), why all the hate about "power creep"? Honestly, what's the problem with it? Let me qualify that - what's the problem with an increase in power for a class widely considered to be weaker than its closest relative class such that many people flat out refuse to play it, not because of its flavor or abilities but because they can play something very similar but stronger?
If the wizard got a significant power boost, then ok, I can understand people being wary. But really, the sorcerer? The poor sorc needs a power boost - honestly, it needs unstaggered casting for many people out there to even consider playing one.
Alright here is my breakdown. I am going to use the aforementioned 7th level sorcerer, cuz the 20th is too much to type out. If we have one take the extra spell 7 times and one take the hit points 7 times here is what we get. So using identical stats (none of which grant bonuses cuz if they are the same what does it matter) and average hit points we have one character who has 24 hit points and one with 31 hit points. we will use the Arcane bloodline because it was the first one I thought of. 3rd level spells for both Dispel Magic, Fireball, Displacement [1 rd/lvl]. 2nd level spells Blur[1 min/lvl], Flaming Sphere, Invisibility[1min/lvl], Scorching Ray (bonus gets Acid Arrow and Resist Energy[10 min/lvl]). 1st level spells Color Spray, Identify, Mage Armor[1hr/lvl], Magic Missile, Shield[1min/lvl], Shocking Grasp (Bonus gets True Strike and Enlarge Person).
He casts Mage Armor 3x/day so it is always up (except for those 2 hours in the middle of the night). So he has 3, 1st; 6 2nd; and 4 3rd left. So first combat of the day both cast fireball. 2nd round of combat both cast scorching ray (because the fighters are in the way of the fireball) 3rd round Scorching Ray again and the combat is over. He has 3 1st level; 4 2nd level; and 3 3rd level left to cast.
I can't say that I see that either is more powerful then the other. The one sorcerer survives 1 or 2 more arrow then the other, but the 2nd has that Resist Energy or Acid Arrow for when he fights something with fire immunity or elemental damage.
RPG Superstar 2008 Top 32, 2011 Top 16
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I think the comparison of the human sorcerer favored class bonus to hp or sp is pretty funny actually. Sure you can take the toughness feat instead of hp, but you can also take the toughness feat in addition to favored class hp bonus. Second, as a player who's several times had a character with just 0 or 1 hp, or for that matter, just being one hp away from death, you could argue that that hp selection is as valuable as a contingent true resurrection spell in some cases, which is far more valuable than a extra spell choice at a level lower than you can cast.
Same thing could be said for skill points - if you just make an important skill check exactly, the sp has paid for itself. Not all skill points are as critical, but if it's in say, climb, perception, stealth, etc. and it's the difference between falling 100 feet and staying safe, noticing an enemy to act on the surprise round, or not being seen by a dangerous monster, those are all situations that are as valuable as an extra spell option.
Finally, the value of the sp or hp varies by class and the default hit die type or skill points per level - a skill point is often far more valuable to a fighter with only 2+Int/level, but a d10 HD, and a hp is more valuable to a d6 HD wizard with a hight Int. As for the value of hp, it varies with how you roll - if you get a 1, that's a level you might care about the hp selection a lot more than if you roll a 6, especially in the lower level range.
What if you took False Life instead of Acid Arrow for the bonus lvl 2 spell? How would the two sorcerers compare then?
Ken
Then you cast it 3x per day so that it stays up you end up with 7 more hit points, but only 1 second level spell left after the first combat of the day. The second combat you would be casting dispel magic or trying to position the fireball to actually hit opponents. Whereas the one with more hit points is still got 4 Scorching Rays.
It definitely gives you a few more options, but I am not sure that there is any more power there.
What are the odds athat an extra hit point will even matter? Knowing mirror image or blur? I'll take that every time.
But aren't you taking Mirror Image or Blur anyway? You are going to have 4 2nd level spells before you can get an extra one anyway.
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I honestly think the people who feel the sorcerer variant is "way more powerful than the HP or skill point" may not have a lot of experience seeing sorcerers in play at various levels.
Count the times where your sorcerer drops below 0HP, or drops close enough the cleric feels compelled to spend their time healing you. And it's not this or toughness, you take the 1HP WITH Toughness to get +2HP per level. With a Con14 that could be 10HP/level. That's meaty.
Now when I think about what spells the sorcerer is likely to add to his known list, they are "second tier". You aren't adding Sleep/Color Spray, you aren't adding Levitate or Fly. You already have these. Situational spells? You carry those on scrolls. Sorcerers tend to be blasters or battlefield control. You only need 2-3 spells per level to cover the main arsenal, then maybe 1-2 utility spells (i.e. Fly, Dispel). Higher levels, sorcerers tend to retrain some of the now bland low level spells. Do you really need Sleep anymore? Are there really more than 5 level 1 spells you want, that you'd spend standard actions casting over your level 6-9 spells? I'm sure someone will come up with 1 or 2 spells, but then ask would you rather have 1HP or spend 25g on a scroll for that spell?
Before anyone claims this is overpowering, go through and think about what spell you are going to pick as known. Then think about the situations you're going to cast it. I can say that the 1st level spell I'd be tempted to take might be a spell like Obscuring Mist. But that's a great spell to simply have on 1-3 scrolls and keep your HPs as high as possible.
People seem to think a sorcerer is going to be level 5 forever, and isn't progressing to level 6 and making gold and buying scrolls. Most games, a sorcerer is level 5 for 10ish encounters that spans over maybe 3 rests. You could give the sorcerer 1 known spell AND the ability to cast it on top of their regular spells per day. That's what the hypothetical 2nd/3rd tier is going to see. Maybe 3 castings per adventuring level, if he's lucky. The sorcerer can accomplish the same thing by spending 75g on 3 scrolls. These are usually utility spells where the CL isn't a big deal. But go nuts, pretend you spend 350g on 6 scrolls of various CLs.
If you gave me the option to shave off 1HP from my maximum - forever - for 350g at level 5, I doubt I'd take that option, since that would be a fraction of 1 percent of average wealth. I can tell you plenty characters that would spend 350g to gain 1HP at level 5.
Its a solid, balanced choice - with typical wealth, typical encounters per day, typical level advancement. If you are comparing ungeared character sheets and hypothetical fights in an arena, then a lot of choices will outweigh their usual counterparts.
This thread proves it - there's players who feel strongly about the HPs and there's players who feel strongly about getting another known low-level spell. That's a great choice that adds depth to a game.
Personally I am really looking forward to this title, and in all honesty I found the sorcerer ability to be the least interesting of the abilities listed up there, I mean sure it's swell, but I gotta love the idea of the bite attack on the half-orc.
Are you? At 6th level, you'll only know 2 second level spells. Maybe you took scorching ray and web. Or Glitterdust. Or Hideous laughter. There's no guarantee you'd take both blur and mirror image. And even if you did that means you don't have web or scorching ray. Any one of the above spells is worth way more than a single hit point. I'm not saying it's not a good change, that remains to be seen, but the very ideaq that it's even close to the same power level as one hit point is ludicrous. I can't believe anyone is even arguing that.What are the odds athat an extra hit point will even matter? Knowing mirror image or blur? I'll take that every time.But aren't you taking Mirror Image or Blur anyway? You are going to have 4 2nd level spells before you can get an extra one anyway.
That should have read 3 2nd level spell as you know 2 plus your bloodline spell at 6th level. I am not saying it isn't a nice option for a sorcerer, cuz obviously it is, but is it any different to take this power over hp then it is for the fighter to take hp over skill points. That I am not so sure about. I mean knowing Scorching ray, invis (arcane bloodline), and web as opposed to those plus mirror image you still can only cast them 5 times.
Honestly, I've read the whole thread, and all I can say is... wow.
So not broken. The extra spell thing.
Then again, I'm also one of those people who think the Skill Points are way better than HP (I can get HP lots of different ways, but Skill Points? Heck, you can't buy those with platinum).
A benefit that is always present is, in my opinion, better than a benefit that's situationally present. An extra few spells known is nice, but I agree with the above posters, there's a limit to how useful an extra four or five 1st and 2nd level spells known are at 12th+ level. On the other hand, an extra 10 ranks of skills is, to me, quite useful. Especially with classes that don't get them. Quite often having your perception and acrobatics maxed out more than makes up for a few hps and an extra spell known or 3.
All that's MHO of course.
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I'm beginning to see a pattern to Jason's design philosophy. It's all about choices. Choose a class. Choose a favoured class bonus. Choose traits. Choose archetypes. Choose feats. Choose powers/talents/spells/bloodlines/schools/songs. Choice, choice choice. Sit there biting your pencil and ponder the choices, instead of going into a straightjacket of a class with everything premade. Or thinking which PrC will make your class workable.
I like it.
+1
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Choose a class. Choose a favoured class bonus. Choose traits. Choose archetypes. Choose feats. Choose powers/talents/spells/bloodlines/schools/songs.
I like it.
Am I the only one reading that in Ewan McGregor's voice?
"Choose life. Choose a class. Choose an archetype. Choose a party. Choose a f**king big sword. Choose feats, skills, spells and traits. Choose good HP, low penalties and armour enhancements..."
To bring this back to the actual topic at hand, I like the options presented, and can not wait for the APG to come out. (Is it out yet? How about now?)
I honestly think the people who feel the sorcerer variant is "way more powerful than the HP or skill point" may not have a lot of experience seeing sorcerers in play at various levels.
That's just condescending. So you are right and we are wrong? Who died and made you God?
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I honestly think the people who feel the sorcerer variant is "way more powerful than the HP or skill point" may not have a lot of experience seeing sorcerers in play at various levels.
Hmm... Funny how I feel the exact opposite. Sorcerer is one of my favorite classes and I've played it a lot recently in high and low levels.
Count the times where your sorcerer drops below 0HP, or drops close enough the cleric feels compelled to spend their time healing you. And it's not this or toughness, you take the 1HP WITH Toughness to get +2HP per level. With a Con14 that could be 10HP/level. That's meaty.
This isn't a valid comparison. With an extra spell you could possibly have avoided taking the damage entirely by getting mirror image or mage armor, or false life. That's not really any indication that the spell is more valuable, only that it's impossible to compare directly.
I can tell you that the number of times I wish I had some additional spells VASTLY exceeds the number of times my character has gone unconscious or been below 10 hit points.
Either way it's a tough thing to measure.
The human sorcerer option is very tempting and its tremendous usefulness aside, I'm less concerned with whether or not the new favored class options are "balanced" against +1 hp/skill point and I'm more interested in discovering whether or not they're as equally appealing/useful/powerful as each other.
Can anybody "in the know" shed some light or share an opinion on this matter?
One of the way I judge a whether I like a character option is what it whether it makes me want to make a character with that option. I really like Toothy and Stonesinger because they conjure up what a character with those features would be like, and that just helps build more robust, full-fledged characters.
I also like Paizo's take on using alternate class abilities to bring new options to the classes, whereas in ages past most of those options would have ended up as bloated prestige classes and feats.
As well, I'm very appreciative to get the design insight into the book from the source. Lord knows I've asked plenty of questions of old 3.x splat abilities with no chance of getting any answer.
I look forward to the book.
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That's just condescending. So you are right and we are wrong? Who died and made you God?
Nobody died, but everybody is entitled to their opinions. Personally I agree with him, having played spellcasters extensively since ADnD. This extra spell known thing is nowhere as powerful as many people are blowing it up to be. Honestly... the bards alternate favored bonus is "better" if you want to talk in platitudes.
As it stands it makes for a cool new choice to make when you level up.
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... avoided taking the damage entirely by getting mirror image or mage armor, or false life...I can tell you that the number of times I wish I had some additional spells VASTLY exceeds the number of times my character has gone unconscious or been below 10 hit points.
Games are going to vary based on gaming group, DM and adventure.
Playing Level 1 to 6 = typically ~50-70 encounters. Groups who run many more encounters to reach level 6 - the known spell variant is stronger.
Some sorcerers will charm their way out of a fight, some will use invisibility to avoid it. A level 1 melee sorcerer might cast enlarge, crit with a glaive and wipe out my BBEG with 35 damage in the first round. The good thing? Those "IWIN buttons" won't work for all 50-70 encounters. They might work for 10-15 of them. I bet the player loved it, and can't wait to come game again next week.
That's the great thing. Of 50-70 encounters, 75% of those were probably "average CR". The party was going to get through them without any significant threat. Worst unbalancing result? It'll save the cleric some channels or wand charges for the challenging CR fights (and some party gold).
So let's look at the hard fights, since that's what balance tips on the most. These are the tricky BBEGs and the quirky monsters - invisible flying monsters, burly elementals, the doppelganger rogue traitor...
So lets look at level 4 through just barely hitting 6 and those 20-25 encounters - say 6 were "challenging" (+2 to +4 CR above APL).
Maybe there's that 1 or 2 there where Enfeeblement could have changed everything. Or Obscuring Mist or Grease...
I fear most folks who look at the option don't try to rationalize it. They just see all the possibility of easily beaten high CR encounters using spells that were normally "out of reach of the known spells of a sorcerer" and shake their heads no. And subconsciously what's at play is a worry that the sorcerer has all those spells ready all the time. I panicked when I read it first, too. Then I realized, for those six challenging CR6-8 encounters that he's gonna face while playing at 4 and 5, those 1st level spells aren't that scary. Those BBEGs are casting spells 3 levels higher(4th!) than the level his option gives him for some additional known spells (1st!). The fight's probably going to be over in 4-5 rounds, and the sorcerer dipping into his extra options for 1st level spells when the BBEG is tossing out 4th then 3rd level spells... those don't worry me as a DM.
If there was a spell of that level - a particular spell as a DM you feared the player might learn with the variant that they otherwise wouldn't.. It's a fraction of 1 percent of their wealth to carry that spell in a scroll. So the threat of access to "that spell" (or "those 3 spells") doesn't go away by denying the variant.
I've seen plenty of arcane casters at my table at any level get hit for their full life in a single round. At level 1, a single longsword swing that an average mook carries can drop a sorcerer. With 10-12 combats to reach level 2, odds are the sorcerer is going to get hit for 1d8+1 or 2d6 if he's fighting a Hellknight recruit or Riddleport rogue. As he levels, and baddies do progressively more CR-appropriate damage, the threat of getting 1-shot never goes away. Shockingly d6 HP (3.5 avg/level) is below average monster damage. Give the sorcerer a 12-14Con and he's up to 4.5-5.5avg/level. Say he's level 6, that's ~35HP. Most CR5-9 baddies he is facing can easily do 35HP damage in a round. So the +6HP from favored class, +6HP more from Toughness on top = it gives that sorcerer 47HP. This is just a bit higher than a CR5-9 baddie can dish out in a round.
Games will vary. If you have a house rule where your players get max HP per level, +1HP/level from favored class is much less valuable! Even house rules like "reroll 1s and 2s" really diminish the value of +1HP/level. A sorcerer in a game getting max HP isn't so desperate to stay alive as one getting 3.5HP/level -- so extra known spells are much more appealing. Even the point buy system matters. If you are playing 25-point buy, it diminishes the value of 1HP/level because characters can get decent Con. If you're doing Standard(15) or even Low(10) that 1HP/level is really, truly, honestly lifesaving.
A DM using 20/25-point buy and Max HP/Level who correctly views the human variant as stronger than the HP (and the skills option too with that point buy).. I wouldn't expect those DMs to outlaw this variant given how generous they already are with player power.
Personally, I love things like the APG, gives us something to talk about on these forums :)
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Choose a class. Choose a favoured class bonus. Choose traits. Choose archetypes. Choose feats. Choose powers/talents/spells/bloodlines/schools/songs. Choice, choice choice. Sit there biting your pencil and ponder the choices, instead of going into a straightjacket of a class with everything premade. Or thinking which PrC will make your class workable.
Stick "Choose Pathfinder." at the end of that and you have a t-shirt.
Edit: Reads on...
Am I the only one reading that in Ewan McGregor's voice?
"Choose life. Choose a class. Choose an archetype. Choose a party. Choose a f**king big sword. Choose feats, skills, spells and traits. Choose good HP, low penalties and armour enhancements..."
Drat, you got there first! Still think we should do Jason a shirt with this on :)