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Let me rephrase. How much trouble will it be to run it as a stand alone. How much will I have to alter the module?

Thanks.


Is it possible to run this adventure as a stand alone without running the entire adventure path? I would dearly like to drop my players into the middle of WWI!


Is it possible to run this adventure as a stand alone without running the entire adventure path? I would dearly like to drop my players into the middle of WWI!


Are there any adventure paths of a somewhat sandbox style similar to Kingmaker? I'm looking for a hexcrawl.

Thanks.


Yeah. I should say it's core only, unless approved. While I might get a feat or two approved, I'm not going to be able to draw from a lot of different products. I specifically asked about the empyreal bloodline,as something I might try to get approved. Since that's out, (the thread title really needs changed) I need to stick to 99% core.


One, it's core only. And 2, I prefer melee.


Ok, so, I have to lose either the empyreal bloodine or the dragon disciple levels. The dd grants +4 strength and +2 ac. Empyreal will let me put the 9 in charisma instead of int which is nice. So I'd be looking at Sohei monk 2/sorc 8/EK 10 for a BAB of 15, CL 18 wis to ac and evasion or P2/s4/dd4/ek10 for a BAB of 17 CL 16 and a hefty save bonus. To be honest, the extra attack doesn't matter that much to me. Both sound enticing.

Which would you guys recommend?


Captain Netz wrote:
Doesn't Dragon Disciple force your bloodline into draconic?

Yep! "Spellcasting: Ability to cast 1st-level arcane spells without preparation. If the character has sorcerer levels, he must have the draconic bloodline. If the character gains levels of sorcerer after taking this class, he must take the draconic bloodline."


DD is dragon disciple. The barbarian dip is for the martial weapon proficency (all). Has to be a fighter/barb/pally/ranger, since I'd be wisdom based, figured I'd go barb for the skills, rage, and extra movement.

I'm not familiar with the Lorewarden, so I looked it up on the PFSRD. I see nothing that gives int to ac.

Thanks for the reply!


I'm going to be playing in a PF game, and thought I'd run an eldritch knight. I'm thinking of running with the following: Ex-monk1/barbarian1/sorceror4/DD4/EK10. This will let me use wisdom as my casting stat, along with adding wis to ac. Alternately, I could replace the monk and barb levels with 2 levels of paladin for cha to saves. The game starts at 3rd level, and I rolled the following stats: 18, 15, 15, 14, 12, 9.

The game will be core classes only, but a feat or two from other sources may be allowed.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks.


Nihimon wrote:
JRR wrote:
if you turn them away, they'll become someone else's customer.

If he lets them all in right away, then the entire game will bomb.

JRR wrote:
I think you vastly underestimate the MILLIONS of people looking for something different than WoW.

He's well aware of this group of people, and has talked about them a lot.

JRR wrote:
I anticipate a monsoon of customers just dying to get into PFO, and then moving on to whatever the newest game is, or continuing to play game x and forgetting about PFO.
Do you really think those players will hold a grudge, and ignore the invitation when it finally does come? I doubt it...

I understand they need to stagger invites, but 4500 a month is tiny. Staggering by week makes much more sense. And it's not about holding a grudge. It's about losing interest. If I get an invite 3 months in I might accept it. Or I might not if something else has my attention. I'll certainly hold PFO no ill will, in either case, but when I'm hungry, I want to eat, so if I have to choose between Mcdonald's now or a fine steak restaurant tomorrow, I'll have a Big Mac, please.


Ryan Dancey wrote:
coach wrote:


What about the customers you may lose if they don't get an invite in the first few months?

While this is a risk, I think the risk is minimal.

I think you're wrong. I'm anticipating Pathfinder more than any other MMO EVER. And I've played most of them. But if I don't get in the first month, maybe the second, I'll lose interest fast. I'm sure I'm not the only one who feels that way. I think you vastly underestimate the MILLIONS of people looking for something different than WoW. I anticipate a monsoon of customers just dying to get into PFO, and then moving on to whatever the newest game is, or continuing to play game x and forgetting about PFO. When given the choice to play one game, or waiting in line to play a better game, well, this is the age of instant gratification. You'll lose a ton of customers. if you turn them away, they'll become someone else's customer.


Justin Tanner wrote:
coach wrote:


If you do the math for 4500 each month, and 25% of them drop out, then at the second month they will open up 4500 new spots PLUS fill in the 1125 (25% that dropped).

They can't fill those spots that dropped. Kicking someone out of the game because they missed their subscription reup by a couple days won't go over well. There are any number of reasons why I might play July, but not August, play September and October, but not November. I might go on vacation, or get sick, or try another game, or have to decide between rent and Pathfinder, etc.


Heh, why torture us with that particular choice of words then? I actually like the WoW game engine. I'm not a graphics whore.
The game itself has gone downhill the last few years, but the engine works.


thenoisyrogue wrote:
It sounds excellent. However, no word on that dreaded tool that did so much to take the social aspect out of MMOs - the dungeon finder. If players only choice to group is by making the effort to meet people in game then it will work. If all you need to do is press a button and consume then it won't. So I hope you're not thinking of putting any LFG tools in there.

Anything resembling a dungeon queue is an absolute dealbreaker for me. Hell, no one in WoW even knows what continent a dungeon is on anymore.


I ffound this part particularly interesting:

"We are also in the middle of a blizzard of legal work. Finalizing our middleware deal has been the focus of a lot of effort over the past month or so. The terms have been negotiated and we have a mutual understanding of what everyone wants in the deal—now we just have to get it all memorialized on paper and signed. As soon as that's happened, we'll be able to tell everyone exactly what we've got planned."

Notice the term they used. I bet 5 bucks the middleware they just bought is a license to Blizzard's WoW game engine.


The month in jail could wotk, actually. The player could then have his friends stage a jailbreak. He might have a price on his head in certain zones after that. Lots of rp potential.


I hate gank fests in world pvp. Ganking someone who is herb farming is tantamount to murdering someone shopping at the produce stand. Very heroic. I'd like to see a game mechanic where the game doesn't forbid that kind of play, but just like killing the guy shopping, there are repercussions. If you get caught, your character has to spend a month in jail. You can't log on to that character for a month real time. You'd be free to play an alt, though.


tad10 wrote:
Chris Lambertz wrote:
Added discussion thread for Goblinworks Blog: A Journey of a Thousand Miles Begins with a Single Step.

You need to rethink one aspect of your business plan. Think facebook here.

People like to play with friends.

Gamer X gets an invite and likes the game.

He tells his friends Y and Z. They try to join but the game is capped.

Gamer X ends up leaving the game because he can't play with friends Y and Z.

Agreed. I have a few friends that I play mmos with. If I can't play Pathfinder with them, then I won't be playing Pathfinder, I'll be playing WoW or Star Wars or Rift, or whatever.


Ryan Dancey wrote:
kyrt-ryder wrote:

.

I have to wonder if you can be sure to fill your 4500 per month playerbase growth when it's restricted to subscribers, but only time will tell for sure. Best of luck Ryan.

I have zero concerns about it. We'll have far more folks who want in than we'll have slots available. Think of it like the waiting list for a new restaurant.

If I have to be on a list to get in, I'll generally eat somewhere else.


AbsolutGrndZer0 wrote:
JRR wrote:
WoW has homogenized the classes so much that it's hard to distinguish between a paladin and a rogue. The spells may have different names and a different graphical effect, but mechanically they have the same effect.

I realize this is off-topic sort of, but you said a lot of things that make NO sense... To keep it simple and not to stray horribly off topic, I'll just ask one question out of the many I have about your extremely long post on the "homogenization" of WOW...

Please tell me how to HEAL with a rogue in World of Warcraft? Paladins are able to do this, and by what you say above that means rogues can too. So, how is it done?

Recuperate. Rogues can self heal better than any other dps class since they nerfed death knights. But I should clarify. Sure, a holy paladin plays different than a rogue, but a ret is almost identical now. Classes that fulfill the same role - I.E, dps in the above example, play pretty much identical. Spam a combo point/holy power builder, hit your finisher, wackamole your reactive's when they proc.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I'd like to add my two cents, for what they're worth.

I've been playing WoW since 2005, dabbled in many other games, and have been playing Rift since early beta. I'm also a Star Wars beta tester. IMO, for a Pathfinder MMO to be successful, it can't just be a WoW clone with a couple neat innovations. There's plenty of those out there already. The Pathfinder IP is just too obscure in the computer gaming world. It's not going to draw a lot of people just on the Pathfinder Logo. The last year or so, I've watched my friends all migrate away from WoW to other mmos or just stop playing them entirely due to Blizzard's homogenization and dumbing down of the game. So, I'd like to list a few things I'd like to see in a Pathfinder mmo.

Ditch the holy trinity of tank, dps, healer. In a Pathfinder or D&D p&p rpg, there's no reason a group of 4 mages can't play through a dungeon or module, or 4 clerics, or 4 fighters, etc. I don't see why this can't be done in an mmo.

No dungeon queue, please. WoW has become World of Queucraft. After max level, people just stand around in capital cities and queue for dungeons. Hell, after level 10, you never have to leave Orgrimmar unless you're farming for professions or reputation.

Ditto with flying mounts. It kills the multiplayer aspect, and world pvp. You almost never see another player in the world in WoW anymore.

Let's have some distinction between the classes, please. WoW has homogenized the classes so much that it's hard to distinguish between a paladin and a rogue. The spells may have different names and a different graphical effect, but mechanically they have the same effect. It makes it easier on the programmers - just get one class balanced the way you want it, then reskin the others - but it's boring and makes the class system useless.

It's a multiplayer game. I shouldn't be able to finish every quest solo. Questing should be challenging.

Daily quests and justice/conquest/valor/etc points are just another grind meant to keep players in the Skinner box as long as possible. It makes the game more like a job and less like a game. Lose them. GEar should be attained by adventuring, not by grinding the same quest over and over and over for 7200 justice points just to buy a pair of isotoner gloves.

More stuff from p&p rpgs should exist. Traps, pits, puzzles, riddles.

Something more exciting from a boss mechanic than "don't stand in fire." Watching cooldowns and procs, monitoring other player's health, making sure I hit the right keys, etc is pretty hectic in itself, getting one shotted because I was in the wrong place for a millisecond is no fun. Hell, even picking the boss's fire effect out of a warlock's hellfire spell, a shaman's healing rain, a paladin's consecrate, while 3 warriors are spinning like tops using whirlwind attack is not easy.

Let's have a world. There should be more than one path from one zone to the next. Some mmos railroad you by blocking every path other than the road with immpassable mountains, you stay on the path, or you go nowhere.

I'm sure there are a ton of other things, but that's all I have for now.

If it sounds like I'm picking on WoW, it's because I am. I just don't want to see Pathfinder repeat Blizzard's mistakes. I want a living, breathing world, not a queuefest where it's rush to max level and queue for dungeons.


The answer is, as often as the player likes. It lies upon the player to seek out his favored enemies if he so desires, not upon the DM to throw them willy nilly in his path.


If I were building a magus, he wouldn't be much of a magus. I'd go Magus 4/Wizard6/EK10.


Stefan Hill wrote:

Hit points!

Anyone else have issues with the Elephant in the Corner? 4e fixed this, variations of 3e fixed this (i.e. A Game of Throne), so why does PF still have the random hp rolls?
S.

There's nothing to fix. Some people are tougher than others, period. That's life and a vibrant game setting reflects this. Tell him to suck it up.


Piracy does nothing but generate sales. It is free advertising, nothing more. most of those who pirate something are too cheap to buy it anyway. Very few people get it. But some do: www.baen.com/library/


I hope not, The name "magus" makes sense for a learned spellcaster, not for a warrior mage. I don't see why both can't exist with shared nomenclature.


Marc Radle wrote:
JRR wrote:
The magus is the archon's lapdog. Good for fetching slippers, but not much else.

Have you checked out the Vanguard, also from SGG?

I'd be interested to hear your thoughts ... As long as they are positive that is! Haha ;)

I can't promise to be positive, how's constructive?

Yes, I have the vanguard. I like it, but I prefer the archon. The full bab is necessary for a fighter/mage imo. I see the vanguard as a caster who dabbles in melee, and the archon as a fighter who dabbles in spells. I simply prefer the latter. I do think the vanguard's spell progression could stand to progress a bit faster. I'd like to see sorceror progression, though fewer spells per day, still capped at 6th level spells. The full bab is a must for any character who is primarily a melee combatant. Not because of the 4th iterative attack, I could care less about that, but so much is tied to bab. Power attack, feat progression, cmb. In fact, if the archon lost all class abilities, retaining spell progression and full bab, I'd still prefer it over the vanguard. I'm aware the monk and rogue lack full bab, but the rogue brings sneak attack to the table, and the monk effectively has full bab with flurry of blows. And both are still relatively weak melee combatants. I love the flavor of the vanguard, but mechanically, it's rather weak. The arcane smite ability (much like the archon's riven spell), is pretty much useless. sacrifice a 3rd level spell for 3d6 damage that is wasted if my attack misses (see 3/4 bab), or use swift spell to lightning bolt someone for 10d6 and still attack? The only abilities I see getting much use are swift spell, weapon channel, and spell block (assuming it's now an immediate action, as suggested in the vanguard thread). The others are small perks that,, while nice, wouldn't be missed if they weren't there. That may be by design, after all, every ability neededn't have the "wow" factor, but he still seems underpowered to me, and more of a bard with fireballs. In fact, the best use of the class is as a stepping stone to eldritch knight. I'd build my vanguard as a vanguard 6/dragon disciple 4, eldritch knight 10. Or as a vanguard 7, wizard3 eldritch knight 10, using wizard for my ek spell progression. Either path nets a huge upgrade in terms of level appropriate functionality. The vanguard has a ton of flavor, and I'd probably like it a lot better had I not seen the archon first.

Sorry for the long diatribe, but you asked! :-)


The magus is the archon's lapdog. Good for fetching slippers, but not much else.


Thank you very much. It makes sense now.


A closer look at this makes me think it's useless as you always know more spells at any level than you do the level above it.

I could use some advice on this, as my weekly game is tonight.


How does the favored class for a half elven archon work?

"Archon: Add +1 to the number of spells
you may know at a given level. You may
never know more archon spells at a level
than you do at the level above it."

So, at 5th level, an archon knows 3 first, 2 2nd, and 1 3rd level spells. Choosing the favored class option above, he can't choose this option at all. Should it read "below" instead of "above?"

Seems to me it would be easier just to treat it like the human sorceror bonus from the apg:

Sorcerer: Add one spell known from the sorcerer spell
list. This spell must be at least one level below the highest
"spell level the sorcerer can cast."

Some clarification would be much appreciated.

Thanks.


Great design - Nothing really stands out as great.

Good design - the wizard, the fighter.

Average design - the paladin.

Poor design - Everything else. The monk, the barbarian, the oracle have ultra fiddly mechanics - ki points, rage points, too much stuff to track. The sorceror's spell progression leaves him way behind the wizard. The channel energy mechanic for cleric's leave them as walking fireballs (the paladin succeeds despite this mechanic, not because of).

I'm not saying these make the classes under or overpowered, though some are, but the mechanics themselves seem unintuitive and not iconic to the classes feel.


Here's a fighter/mage/rogue build I've been kicking around:

Rogue3/sorceror1/Paladin2/DD4/Arcane Trickster6/EK4

Base attack 14
Caster Level 13
5d6 sneak attack
Divine Grace
Smite Evil
Weapon Specialization

And most importantly - "Tricky Spells (Su): Starting at 5th level, an arcane trickster can cast her spells without their somatic or
verbal components, as if using the Still Spell and Silent
Spell feats. Spells cast using this ability do not increase in
spell level or casting time. She can use this ability 3 times
per day at 5th level..."


Sean K Reynolds wrote:

Not that which belongs to the PCs, that would be a jerk GM thing to do! :)

(Note that Christine's original RPG Superstar proposal for the adventure specifically calls out that it doesn't affect the PCs. Yay!)

Thanks for the quick reply!


I have a question about this adventure.

Spoiler:
When the curse hits and all gold in the city turns to lead, does this include the pcs gold? That seems a bit harsh.

Thanks.


Disciple of Sakura wrote:

I'm seriously considering the Archos 9 tablet. I like that it's cheaper than an iPad for its memory size, it's got a USB port (so it's actually much more like a real computer), and some of the other features it's rocking, too.

The trick is convincing the wife to authorize the purchase...

Consider the Archos 70 or 101. I'm about to pull the trigger on a 70, I like the smaller screen, more portable.


Just picked this up. The cleric in my game will like it, I think.

But, unless I'm misinterpreting something, I noticed the powers of the exalted blood domain seem to be missing.

Nevermind. It looks like I need to peruse the APG for these powers.


Richard Leonhart wrote:


well 8/8 seems a bit over the top, but hey, mine was just an idea. And I suspect he will be slightly better in magic than in melee, because it's in the complete magic book.

Why? At 8/8, he's 20% worse than both the fighter and wizard, though I'd claim losing 7-9th level spells is a sight more than 20%. Since he can fill either role, a 20% penalty is acceptable, but a 40%? I'll pass.


Richard Leonhart wrote:

I think it's a bit hard to think only in categories of primary and secondary (or tertiary).

On a scale from 1 to 10, 1 being bad and 10 best.
A warrior would be 10 melee and 1 spells
A wizard would be 10 spells and 1.5 melee.

I think the magus will be like 6 melee and 6.5 spells. He will be better than half in both.
Please note I said "will be", I think it has been well agreed upon that the magus as he's now is a bit away from what he'll be at the end.

Which means he'll be slightly better than an half as effective as a fighter or slightly better than half as effective as a mage. That's way too much of a hybrid tax to pay. 8/8 is about right, not 6/6.


And smite evil, divine bond, mercies, channel energy, lay on hands, etc. The lack of such should be worth 2 levels of spells.


Ravingdork wrote:


Many posters on this board either don't realize (or don't care) that full BAB by itself does not a bruiser make.

* This message supported by the "Give Magus Full BAB Foundation".

I endorse this message and would like to subscribe to your newsletter.


Abraham spalding wrote:
Razz wrote:
opinions

Um... we had trouble getting people to *not* play the cleric actually. That spell list wasn't bad at all and you could turn *demons and devils* not just undead back in the day. The armor was good the weapons were not bad the saves were acceptable, you didn't have the spell book to worry about, the THac0 wasn't bad and you got bonus slots which the wizard didn't get.

Theif was the one we had the most problem getting people to play (usually we just didn't have one).

Agreed. The cleric was a very powerful class if played right. I picked very few healing spells, just enough to keep the party alive, then heal up during downtime. You were only a walking bandaid if you CHOSE to be.


Cold Napalm wrote:


If they get crap spells and no class ability...they would be too weak. So instead of bugging the devs for a duskblade, which is a bloody fightery/sorcerer guy, why not ask for a GOOD spell list for the magus so that he can be a balanced fighter/wizard. Which is the design parameter of this class and the BLOODY BOOK IT IS IN. I'm sorry, but what books is the magus coming in again? Ultimate MAGIC was it? Why are people so bloody insistant on making a fightery/mage in a MAGIC based book. Go capaign for it in the ulrimate combat...sheesh.

Because if we get the magus now, what purpose would another fighter/mage have? And if he then gets full bab 3/4 casting, this same argument will break out. It's too powerful, blah, blah, blah. So we will then end up with another hexblade. A full bab half caster who can't beat a ranger's animal companion. Or at best, an arcane paladin, which might be a great class, but hardly a true fighter/mage. May as well let our voices be heard now.


Hexcaliber wrote:

I don't know, I soloed a monk pretty good tonight with a Magus. It really just comes down to build.

...

Very exciting.

Excellent! He can "solo" the worst class in the game.


He doesn't need full bab, but he needs ultra fiddly mechanics that make him effectively have full bab? Why not just give him the full bab and be done with it? The 4th iterate attack really isn't going to suddenly make him super powerful. Sometimes the simple solution is the best.


Rogues have this little thing called sneak attack. Perhaps you missed that? Clerics have spells and domains. Bards have all sorts of other abilities, and the monk...well, yeah, the monk sucks. What else would you call the bard's spellcasting besides mediocre? 6th level spells is average.

Compared to all the other classes abilities, the magus has a few little neat abilities that are really unimpressive. Like the monk, it has a ton of flavor and very little use. You can patch on a bunch of fiddly mechanics to make him not suck in combat, or you could just give a bab like a true FIGHTER/mage and be done.

hida_jiremi wrote:


So... rogues are ineffective at everything? Because I've played several melee-oriented rogues who were just fine in combat. Same thing with cleric, monk, and bard, all of whom are 3/4 BAB. I also would not deride bard as a mediocre spellcaster in Pathfinder. Not being the best at one thing doesn't mean you suck; it just means that your abilities need synergy so that you remain competitive.

I think that magus' problems are entirely unrelated to its BAB and spell level progressions. Mostly, its abilities just don't synergize very well, and it takes a long time to be good at what it's supposed to do. I think the class would work better with medium armor from the get-go, and a higher emphasis on arcane weapon and magus arcana stuff. The spellstrike and spell combat abilities are just too whiffy.

Jeremy Puckett


It needs full bab because it's a FIGHTER/mage. All other front line classes have full bab. Fighter, ranger, barbarian, paladin. Without it, he's delegated to 2nd rank warrior status. He doesn't fit here either. Rogues get sneak attack and a ton of skills, bards get buffs and skills, all sorts of perform abilities, clerics and druids 9th level spells, plate armor, wild shape, etc. The magus gets - what, exactly? A bunch of situational abilities with penalties. Super Genius Games Archon is what the magus should be, as is he'll end up a henchman's b!%$*.


The psychic warrior does not exist in Pathfinder. Therefore it cannot be used as a benchmark. May as well say Derek Jeter sucks as a shortstop because he can't pole vault 15 feet.


Matthew Morris wrote:
JRR wrote:
Phasics wrote:


Magus will never be full BAB

And this is why he will always suck.

My Psychic Warrior would like to have words with you*

*** spoiler omitted **

Noncore and irrelevant.

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