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Snapdragon fireworks is interesting, but underpowered as a 2nd level bard spell, as well as somewhat overlapping with pyrotechnics at the level. Will discuss with DM on changing it to 1st.

Everything else is pretty cool.

As I read it, Spell Combat can be used with any spell that is cast as a standard action, while the Arcana 'Broad Study' implies that is not the case. I would recommend adding a 'from the Magus' spell list' line somewhere in Spell combat to clear up and confusion.

Our group used a slightly modified version of this system in a campaign (three steps instead of one) and it worked out really well.

We used it in place of the regular leveling system for a low-power, low-magic, slow pace game. It worked great.

One of the way I judge a whether I like a character option is what it whether it makes me want to make a character with that option. I really like Toothy and Stonesinger because they conjure up what a character with those features would be like, and that just helps build more robust, full-fledged characters.

I also like Paizo's take on using alternate class abilities to bring new options to the classes, whereas in ages past most of those options would have ended up as bloated prestige classes and feats.

As well, I'm very appreciative to get the design insight into the book from the source. Lord knows I've asked plenty of questions of old 3.x splat abilities with no chance of getting any answer.

I look forward to the book.

Fantastic. I know a few questions had come up in play about where things took place, and this clears them up nicely.

The only thing I learned from this blog post is that in order to work at Paizo you must master the appearance of being nonchalant with your hands in your pockets.

I also have a sneaking suspicion that everyone at Paizo has horrible mangled hands from writing non-stop in the Dungeon of Jacobs.

I find the thematic background of CotCT to be very interesting, keep it up.

Alright, let's look at it like this:

At level 7, and Eidolon has 10 evo points.

Biped starting strength is 16

+3 just from being an Eidolon
+8 from Large Evo

That's 27 alone, not counting any other evolutions or items.

Now with a Large Greataxe, that Eidolon would be doing 3d6 + 12 on each hit, and it gets two attacks on a full attack, still not including any items or other items or evolutions (though you'd really need to give him martial weapon prof. as a feat or an evolution), nor ability increases.

Throw in a +2 str item, another +2 str evolution and you've got a killing machine.

This all includes a faster str/dex and natural armor progression than a Druid Animal Companion. A comparable Ape would start with str 13, get +8 at level 4, +2 from progression, for a 22.

Just a heads up to those DM's an players trying out the Summoner before the APG comes out:

After plenty of gameplay and some number crunching, it came to my DM's and parties conclusion that the Large evolution for Eidolon's was over the top.

+8 strength is just a little too much of a boost. The compromise for balance thought up by my DM was to replace the bonuses from the Large Evolution with the Giant rebuild rules.

It really came to a head when my character's Eidolon was hypnotized (Rolled a 1 >.<) and ended up almost one-shotting my character -- and that was after the nerf!

So just a heads up for DM's to closely scrutinize Eidolon power balance -- it can get out of hand very quickly.

Jason Nelson wrote:
Russ Taylor wrote:
Abraham spalding wrote:
Which brings up an interesting point -- how does the seeking quality work against mirror image? I could certainly see an argument for it always hitting the caster.
My take on it: seeking would only help if you closed your eyes before you shot. Otherwise, you're not dealing with concealment.


That's the trick. Same with true strike. You can see the square they're in. You shoot (or move up if melee+TS) and close your eyes just before your attack. Miss chance - AVERTED!

I never thought of using Seeking like that.

I'll be sure to use it to kill the AC 51 BBEG.

Counter-post complete.

Per the CR, Page 212:

If a polymorph spell is cast on a creature that is
smaller than Small or larger than Medium, f irst adjust
its ability scores to one of these two sizes using the
following table before applying the bonuses
granted by
the polymorph spell.

Creature’s Adjusted
Size: Diminutive +6 str –4 dex

Then you would apply the modifiers from Beast Shape I.

When boss mobs have mooks and lieutenants at their side, they become a lot more interesting. Players may need to use actual strategy and tactics instead of just straight of spanking him. I know my group took down Karzoug pretty easily since our 5 actions could easily beat his 1.

Also, please note: Bo9S is ridiculously, impossibly broken. PF fighters do what fighters should do: insane amounts of damage with their base attacks.

I have a question for the players:

How do your expectations of how high-level play would go compare with how it is actually playing out?

James Jacobs wrote:


Do your worst.

James Jacobs wrote:
Bikis wrote:
James Jacobs wrote:
*stuff about web enhancements*
*More stuff*

I never thought of it like that. I'll leave it up to you guys when stuff should be thrown up and stop asking.

James Jacobs wrote:
*stuff about web enhancements*

Real PDF web enhancements are a thing of the past. Occasionally they make sense for things like the Bonus Bestiary and Player Guides, but as a regular thing blog posts work much better and take less time/effort away from products being worked on.

I will reiterate my desire for more cut content to be posted on the boards or as blog posts, even if the canon doesn't quite match up all the time due to later editing. I'd rather have extra content that doesn't match and sort it out myself, than to have those extra words languish on a hard drive somewhere.

I'm just gonna drop here that as far as my tastes go, it'd be an Oriental Book, then a Savage Book, then an Epic Book. I've found combat begins to become almost completely unwieldy and breaks down around 15th level. Epic just doesn't sound like something I'd want to play.

Charles Evans is not a man, he's a futuristic robot sent back in time to edit our typos.

I'm just gonna go ahead and say I could care less about epic rules.

My group tried to do a post-RotRL game and well before we took down Karzoug we were nigh-unkillable death machines. We had to do a lot just to make combat work, and eventually it just broke our DM's back with all the work.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: I love it when cut content lives again on the boards or as a blog post.

My DM brought up this:

If you cast invisibility on a fighter in full plate, and then he walks right past a guard, the invisibility gives him +20 on stealth checks, despite the fact that he'd probably be making a hell of a lot of noise.

A consequence of combining the skills.


James Jacobs wrote:

I also seem to remember that prestige class being SUPER wordy, taking up WAY more than what we could fit on a spread with an illo, and required another new subsystem of categorizing ruins on a scale of powers that would have made every ruin in the game have a stat block, yeah? We needed the prestige classes to fit on 2 pages.

Also, I like picking on you. Revenge for all the killer gorillas, if you will. And the sword-breaking hook horror. (runs off to cry)

I'm going to say this here since it is somewhat appropriate.

I love the few times cut content has made it's way to the boards. I know there's a lot of people who want fancy web enhancements and all that(which Paizo doesn't have the time for), but I highly enjoy some extra content or a little lore here and there leaking out in a quick board post every once and awhile.

Silke's is similar to what I would probably have done with it. I think that Cleric HD/BAB is a given, considering that the class already gets armor and should be considered tougher than a wizard or sorcerer.

I would however limit the Bonus Feats to be either from the Wizard or Fighter Bonus feat lists.

I have reservations about the Sudden feats though. They lean heavily toward on "I sudden maximize and empower a fireball and win one encounter a day" problem. I'd prefer to implement a point system whereby Warmages could reduce a spell's level by a certain number of points that they earn each level, similar to barbarian rage points or bardic music rounds.

For example, the warmage would get, say two 'Spell Power' points per level, and could use these to reduce metamagic spell level increases on a 1 to 1 basis.

If you went with the feature though, you'd have to give them bonus feats with it, which my necessitate giving them bonus feats earlier.

Makarnak wrote:
*numbers and stuff*

A 20th level oracle better have a lot more than 103 hp, or it'll be a smear on the ground.

A 16th level fighter is going to have 4 base attacks on a full-attack, plus a possible 1 extra if they are hasted or using a similar effect.

Even with a moderately enchanted weapon, it just isn't going to last with RAW.

I agree with the OP, and I'll also add that I find the Flame/Wind/Stone/Water Final revelations to be kinda boring compared to the rest of Pathfiner's capstone abilities.

For reference here is the ability:

Steelbreaker Skin (Su): As a standard action, you can
harden your f lesh so that weapons that strike you are
damaged or destroyed. Anytime a melee or ranged weapon
strikes you, the weapon takes an amount of damage equal
to your oracle level. This ability does not prevent the
weapon from harming you unless the damage destroys
the weapon attacking you. You can use this ability once
per day, but the duration is 1 minute/level. You must be
at least 7th level before selecting this revelation. At 15th
level, the damage from this ability ignores up to 10 points
of hardness.

Came in here to post that haste at 4th level was broken.

Jemstone has the most sane posts in this thread.

I too, wish for a Lycanthropy book.

Dave Young 992 wrote:
it took up too much space with all the other stuff already on the table. A larger table isn't an option for me.

My group has the same problem. Pretty cramped area with no real extra room to roll large numbers of dice.

DM_Blake wrote:

Are we really suggesting here that the impediment to high-level D&D/Pathfinder games that is most worthy of our time to complain about it and/or resolve it, is that we can't bring enough dice to the game table?

That's the #1 burning high-level issue on your mind?

Did you read my post directly above that, the long one, with words? There are a lot of challenges to high level play to be dealt with, not least of which is the difficultly of multiple large dice rolls.

Zurai wrote:
I've never experienced that, but then we play Warhammer Fantasy and Shadowrun as well, so there are multiple dice cubes of d6s (36d6) floating around the table. You don't usually toss more than a handful of any other die size in my experience. I can see where it'd be a problem for someone who didn't have a use for 36d6, though.

The problem usually comes when multiple people need the dice.

For instance:

A two-weapon fighter with haste or a speed waepon at level 16 has nine attacks. If his weapon is fiery and bane and he has two weapon rend, he's using 28d6 per attack if he uses them all at once.

So if he hits with every attack lets say, he's using the majority of the dice pool in one go. If there's another fighter, mage, or mob for the DM using d6's in play, then they have to wait till 28d6 is rolled, counted, then passed on till they themselves can roll their attacks.

Which is why we use dice rollers a lot.

Rules for High Level Play encompass a lot of different aspects of the game that become more warped as levels increase. A full attack at level 1 is far more complicated than a full attack at level 15. As well, the way characters move in the world(using teleport and other transportation spells), the way they interact with NPCs, buy gear, the skill bonus' they are able to acquire (and therefore knowledge they have access to), and many other changes make running and playing in high level games a bit more complicated.

DM's and players have to work together to come to a consensus about how to go about running higher level games so that they go smoothly. Simply going turn by turn isn't as efficient when characters are rolling upwards of 20 dice to determine success and failure per turn.

Here are some things my group has done to speed things along:

1. Know your character, and know your allies' characters
What bonus' affect your attacks, how your spells work and interact with each other, what buffs you have active, and what situational factors are at play are critical to keeping the game moving. Know what spell your going to cast before you cast it. Stopping the game to look up a spell and adjudicate can be time-consuming.

2. Trust. You have to trust the DM, and the DM has to trust you. No fudging. No cocked dice. Know your character and that the numbers are legit. Not only that, you need to know how the other characters in your party operate so you can cross-check them when things happen. 10 eyes are better than 2.

3. Pre-rolling. In our games you roll your attack before your turn. This just became necessary once some characters got to 5 or more attacks per round. Knowing where you are in the initiative is key to this. Before your turn (most of the time right after your previous turn just ended) you start rolling your attacks and the damage and write them down. Once your turn comes up, you check your attacks with the DM to see if they hit, then you total the damage. Sometimes we just make the AC of mobs known, so when your turn comes up you just tell the DM how much damage you deal.

4. Primarily core. We generally limit a character to 1 splat book. The addition of other rules that few at the table may be familiar with makes it more difficult to determine outcomes once something comes up. Having to explain how a new feat or spell works multiple times when you cast it can bog things down.

That's all I've got for now.

SilvercatMoonpaw wrote:
Mistwalker wrote:
What is the problem with rolling multiple colored dice?

People may not want to go having to buy dice to have enough colors. Or they could be playing online where you don't have dice colors.

Just trying to provide some perspective.

I know in our high level games, we just don't have enough dice to go around for some rolls.

Sean K Reynolds wrote:
Asgetrion wrote:
This reminds me of something I've been dying to try out in some future campaign; namely that PCs would not get any XP anymore. Rather, they would level up after reaching certain "key points" in the story, regardless of how they got there (maybe a level per every 1-5 sessions, depending on the actual events and their character level).

For Monte Cook's World of Darkness, I wrote out my house rule where I divided a class level's abilities into four categories (I think it was HD/hp/BAB, skill points, saves, and "all the rest") called "steps." Then, for a typical game session, you could award each character 1 step, for a good session you could award 2 steps, and so on. You can't advance to the next level until you've taken all 4 steps for your current level. And the PCs end up advancing at about the same rate as a standard progression XP track.

That allows the GM to advance the story without worrying about XP math, and still lets the PCs have a tangible awareness of their progression (James' concern).


I like this idea, and I think I'll suggest it for the low-level, low-magic, laid back role playing game I'm in. As it stands, we just come to a general consensus about when to level up based on what has been happening in the game, and I think your system will mesh well with that.

However, I feel like the HP/BAB, Saves, Skills, Abilities split is a bit disjointed. I think I'll suggest collapsing Saves and Skills and making it a three tier system makes the mini-levels more even.

I look forward to a Paizo podcast.

Invisible Blade was originally a 10 level class in Dragon 303 that was edited down.

Here is a link to the full version, which I like much better:

Invisible Blade

If you really want those extra skills, there are some feats to gain extra ranks in non-core books.

As well, the favored class bonus is a solid +1.

If you really need them, invest in a better int to get the ranks you need.


One of my DMs once said that the Spike Chain was a red herring put into the game to test GMs ability to balance the game.

I don't think it was intentional, but this was a change a long time coming.

I don't think a reasonable DM should allow this, as it twists the rules for a weird benefit.

The beta version of the rules had this as a once per minute rule. I feel that this ability (and others like it) weren't supposed to be used more than once per rage or minute.

I was a little confused reading this today so I'll weigh in.

Because both Bull Rush and Knockback use the phrase 'in place of the melee attack' or similar, my interpretation is that Knockback is meant to be a special version of Bull Rush that does damage for Barbarians.

Executing a Bull Rush is a standard action, and barbarians don't suddenly get to make Bull Rush attempts as part of a full attack because of this ability, they just get to do damage on a normal bull rush and don't have to move with their target.

I had noticed this back in Beta and had assumed that it just hadn't been added in yet, but I was wondering if I could get a comment as to why Synergies had been removed. Was it another matter of space, or were they considered rules bloat? Are other people planning on house ruling them back in?

Page 80, Abjuration School Power:

Abjuration School Power wrote:

Protective Ward (Su): As a standard action, you can create

a 10-foot-radius field of protective magic centered on you
that lasts for a number of rounds equal to your Intelligence
All allies in this area (including you) receive a
+1 def lection bonus to their AC for 1 round.

In beta, it was 1 round. Seems it was changed to int/round but the description wasn't updated completely.

How business-y of a decision was this? Are the reaper folks big Pathfinder fans, or vice-versa?

Also, does anyone know if the Community Map corresponds to the 8 panel (PF Campaign) map, or the 4 Panel (Gazetteer) map? I know there were some discrepancies between the two, and I'd prefer to use the more accurate one.

F. Wesley Schneider wrote:
OMG! You are the biggest damn hero ever ever. How did you do this? Tell me this is just a simple program you have. In any case, e-mail me, there are matters to discuss.

It's actually super easy. In Google Earth you can Go to Add > Image Overlay then just drag the edges where you want.

Here is a transparent version that uses Mana Wastes as the Tropic of Cancer, the Arctic Circle as the top of the map, and Absalom as the Prime Meridian. I choose an arbitrary E/W length. I also marked the image overlay tool icon so people can figure out how to make their own.

Golarion Transparent

Right, so from what I remember correctly, in Beta you got what was basically 1/day spell like abilities that relied on Int and not Cha every other level, which represented your "bonus" spell for being a specialist (it actually worked very similarly to the Domain Wizard from the UA). Then in final they went back to the 3.5 version of specialists, where you get a bonus slot for any spell of that school.

Ah, yes. I see. So in Beta you'd get the bonus spells based on wizard level and they'd increase per day based on caster level.

On Wizard Bonus spells and powers:

PFRPG Beta says:
In addition to these abilities, each school also grants a
number of bonus spells. Whenever a wizard attains the listed
level, he can choose one spell from his school to prepare every
day as a bonus spell.
Instead of gaining a spell of the listed
level, the wizard can instead choose a spell of a lower level,
which he can then prepare twice per day (except for 2nd level).

PFRPG Beta also says::
At 1st level, a wizard may choose one
school of magic to focus on, and two other schools of magic
to ignore (called prohibited schools). Each arcane school grants a number of school powers
dependent upon the level of the wizard.

Seltyiel has all of his bonus spells for his level, however, the rules are not very clear on whether he actually should get these are not, as the description says 'wizard level' and not 'caster level'. The description for school powers says 'wizard level' and Seltyiel doesn't get new powers after his first few wizard levels, but he does get bonus spells despite the description not indicating caster level.

The bonus spell description didn't seem all that clear as to if you got the spells with caster level.

Hydro wrote:
*snip well-reasoned argument

You did a much better job of describing this than I did.

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