Molehills to Mountains - Making a King in Mossflower

Game Master Orthos

The lands of Mossflower and the surrounding territories to the north and west are well-known to the peoples of Redwall Abbey and its various extended allies and neighbors - the badger kingdom of Salamandastron, the bats of Mountpit, the Toad Lands to the south, and the like. But few have dared travel east, beyond the deepest reaches of Mossflower Wood, to find what lies beyond the forest's darkest groves.

You gather at Redwall Abbey for a final farewell feast before beginning your sojourn into the unknown. The Deep Green awaits!

That pretty much sums up the long and short of it. I'm looking for 2-4 players to help fill out a group for a Kingmaker(-based, loosely, expect some modifications to the story for obvious reasons!) campaign set in the world of Redwall and Mossflower. I'm aiming for a total party size of 5-6 and currently have a handful of potentially-interested people, but not enough for a full group. If you're interested, feel free to read through the rules below and consider if it's your sort of thing!

Ruleset: Pathfinder 1e

Character creation rules: Characters must be non-evil.

Create with a starting array 16 15 14 12 10 8 before race adjustments.

Race and class options listed below, feel free to ask if you feel you have a specific request that's not on the list but meets the same/similar feel and mechanics.

I just noticed Inquisitor got left off the list of allowed classes somehow. It's available, my bad.

I must admit Orthos 'kingmaker' is the great white whale for me, I've started it six or seven times, but never got out of the first book of the AP. Also, I flat out love the idea of playing in the Redwall Abbey universe with its races.

A couple of questions, are you playing by post here on Paizo and what sort of posting rate are you looking? Also, along with the races and character classes are you considering any of the 'extra' rules; like traits, background skills, 'Elephant in the room feat tax,' or 'automatic bonus progression'?

Edit: Dude (sorry, old guy vernacular not necessarily appropriate). Hey! you're all over Deep 6 FaWtL tell me you got Tacticslion to play!

A couple of questions, are you playing by post here on Paizo and what sort of posting rate are you looking? Also, along with the races and character classes are you considering any of the 'extra' rules; like traits, background skills, 'Elephant in the room feat tax,' or 'automatic bonus progression'?

Yes here on Paizo. I'd like at least a post a day if possible, but I understand that doesn't always work for everyone so I try to shoot for something like ~4 a week or so. I certainly will have days where I just don't have the opportunity to get on the forums myself, for example.

I go by the usual 2 traits at level 1 for PF1e. I do like automatic bonus progression and was going to put it on the table for consideration, but am not set on it 100% yet. I'm afraid I'm not familiar with Elephant In The Room tax! Nor with background skills beyond those granted by traits.

Hey! you're all over Deep 6 FaWtL tell me you got Tacticslion to play!

I did ask! But sadly he does not have the time at this time.

Thank you for the quick answers!

Robert Henry wrote:

Hey! you're all over Deep 6 FaWtL tell me you got Tacticslion to play!

I did ask! But sadly he does not have the time at this time.

Robert Henry wrote:

A couple of questions, are you playing by post here on Paizo and what sort of posting rate are you looking?

Yes here on Paizo. I'd like at least a post a day if possible, but I understand that doesn't always work for everyone so I try to shoot for something like ~4 a week or so. I certainly will have days where I just don't have the opportunity to get on the forums myself, for example.

Robert Henry wrote:

Also, along with the races and character classes are you considering any of the 'extra' rules; like traits, background skills, 'Elephant in the room feat tax,' or 'automatic bonus progression'?

I go by the usual 2 traits at level 1 for PF1e. I do like automatic bonus progression and was going to put it on the table for consideration, but am not set on it 100% yet. I'm afraid I'm not familiar with Elephant In The Room tax! Nor with background skills beyond those granted by traits.

So the Elephant in the room feat tax has become very popular. Honestly, I like the ABP more, it feels like magical items get to be more magical and you don't need a 'Magicmart' around every corner or rewrite every encounter to balance it out. I strongly recommend the background skills, that way a character can invest in an actual backstory without it costing precious skill points. But honestly none of the three are a deal breaker.

I was going to ask if we knew how many other folks or what classes the other players have in mind, but I found the conversation and apparently it's not quite that far developed :)

After reading it over, I'm fine with both of those, sure. I'll drop it in the discussion thread as well.

After reading it over, I'm fine with both of those, sure. I'll drop it in the discussion thread as well.

Like I said I have mixed emotions, I find people get excited when they see the 'feat tax rules' in play. That could be a good thing or a bad thing.

I'd rather play with folks who like the idea of the game, not that they have threshold that expects all the extra bells and whistles. But I can't say too much, I've found that even with games that are AP's I want to play, a 15 pt buy instead of a 20 is a deal breaker for me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Yeah I tend to just do the array instead of pointbuy, if only because it's a little simpler.

The main thing about Elephant that got my okay was the streamlining of a lot of the "grab bag" feats down into one thing, so that if you say want to do a character based on combat maneuvers it's not three or four separate feat chains that make it only really open to later-game Fighters or classes that get them free like certain Monk archetypes.

And Kingmaker being Kingmaker, having reliable access to non-combat skills just makes sense.

Very definitely interested. Got to ask, are cats (presumably mechanically treated as catfolk) allowed? Or are they one of the enemy species?

I think a mouse swashbucker is in order! Reepicheep anyone?

Very definitely interested. Got to ask, are cats (presumably mechanically treated as catfolk) allowed? Or are they one of the enemy species?

Cats definitely exist in the setting, and while they are usually an enemy species there have been occasions of non-evil cats in the stories, such as Squire Julian or Gingivere Greeneyes. With a suitable story as to why they're willing to work with Redwall, I'm not opposed to allowing them. If that's the concept you're interested in, I will probably just have them use Catfolk stats yes.

Well, he was a kitten raised by bunny rabbits

Ok, Creating my bard cat inspired by a cross between Bugs, Puss N Boots, and my fevered imagination :-)

This looks super interesting, getting some similar vibes as Bloomburrow, a recent Magic: the Gathering set that basically has the same premise of "everyone is anthropomorphic". Will likely browse some cards and get an idea of what I want to play.

As far as races go, are the reptiles and amphibians allowed? Like frogs, lizards, etc.

Reptiles and amphibians are typically little represented but given the premise I could see the Toad Lands and/or the lizards of Marshwood wanting to ensure they had a representative rather than Redwall and Salamandastron hoarding all the glory. I'm willing to consider them!

The only thing I'm flat-out saying no to from the get-go is anything larger than cat/fox/wolf/badger and nothing that flies so no birds or bats.

Do you have stats on what they'd use? Presumably grippli and nagaji, or maybe vishkanya?

Grippli but with an option to be Medium size would probably be what I'd use for frogs and toads, Lizardfolk for lizards and possibly for salamanders too. For something like an axolotl known for its regenerative abilities I'd say maybe Samsaran?

Nagaji are more snakey than lizardy, and Snakes are basically this world's version of Dragons without the propensity for crossbreeding with humanoids, so they wouldn't be used for PCs.

I might be willing to allow Vishkanya to be used for something like a poisonous salamander breed or such. Grippli already has an optional racial trait for poison dart frog types.

Is there a lizardfolk race you prefer I use? The base rules don't actually have an option for the player race, but there are a few 3PP ones for PCs.

Lizardfolk 1
Lizardfolk 2

Is there a lizardfolk race you prefer I use? The base rules don't actually have an option for the player race, but there are a few 3PP ones for PCs.

Lizardfolk 1
Lizardfolk 2

This is the one from Paizo, from Advanced Race Guide. I'm willing to allow the listed alternate race features on the Jon Brazer page though, except for Dragonsired.

Oh completely missed that, sounds good! Thanks, will use that one and have something together soon.

Would you be open to allowing the oracle? There's a super thematic curse I'd like to use (cold-blooded), and certainly fits why she'd not be a normal 'villain' of her species.

I understand that it'd likely be limited to 6th level spells, would there be any other changes?

And here is Tawnystripe. If I'm accepted I'll create an alias for him.

This is what he looks like

Hiya! I'm not familiar with Redwall so my questions are more curiosity than anything else and could entirely reflect my ignorance of the source material...

In the Class spoiler you mentioned that divine casters are dedicated to concepts, etc. but I notice that Cleric and Oracle are not on the class list. Is that an oversight or do only listed divine casters (Paladin for instance) exist?

Also, on the Races list... no hopping, wing-clipped, crows based on the Tengu?

In the Class spoiler you mentioned that divine casters are dedicated to concepts, etc. but I notice that Cleric and Oracle are not on the class list. Is that an oversight or do only listed divine casters (Paladin for instance) exist?

So Redwall, by default, is a completely magic-less setting. The closest that anything comes to supernatural events is the occasional mystical vision and possibly ghosts (but also possibly those have completely natural explanations).

But for obvious reasons that doesn't translate into Pathfinder very well, so I'm splitting the difference by limiting the class access to half- and partial-casters only, no full 9th-level spellcasters. This allows enough magic for the mechanics of Kingmaker to be more or less run without too much alteration, but without filling the world with the extremely-potent high-end magic of full casters.

That said I have been convinced to add Oracle to the list with the same limits as Witch (see below). Cleric doesn't really work with the lack of organized religion (lone devouts like Warpriests and Paladins, nature-wardens like Rangers and Hunters, and singular weird loners like Oracles and Witches are more suited), and Wizard and Sorcerer don't fit with the lack of widespread magical education and magical crossbreeding respectively.

Also, on the Races list... no hopping, wing-clipped, crows based on the Tengu?

I could be convinced to allow Tengu as a stand-in for some kind of flightless bird, sure.

Would you be open to allowing the oracle? There's a super thematic curse I'd like to use (cold-blooded), and certainly fits why she'd not be a normal 'villain' of her species.

I understand that it'd likely be limited to 6th level spells, would there be any other changes?

You know what, Oracle's flavor does work in (this game's version of) this world, kinda the same way Witch does, so I'll allow it. Use the Inquisitor charts for spells known and spells per day, but otherwise you should be able to run it as written.

So Redwall, by default, is a completely magic-less setting

Ah, I did not know that. So you're looking for more natural-feeling spellcasters if any at all, got it.

In that case I might be switching to bloodrager, will mess around a bit.

Thanks for satisfying my curiosity!

This comes to mind

Hmmmm, Spazmodeus is considering a swashbuckler, pauljathome has presented a bard, bigrig107 is switching to a bloodrager, stormraven is hoping for a wing-clipped crow and Grumbaki, aparently, wants to be the king of mice.

*Waves @ Grumbaki*

I lean towards full BAB or skill monkeys. For several reasons I really like the idea of playing a hedgehog/halfelf, was thinking about bloodrager but I don'twant to step on bigrig's toes if I don't have to. I see Jurassic Bard and Andostre in discussion from Deep 6 FaWtL I will probably wait to see what they are playing before I decide.

Orthos, how long will you leave recruitment open?

Edit: Though a hedgehog, cavalier, order of the pike is looking interesting.

Orthos, how long will you leave recruitment open?

Probably through the weekend or so, not too long.

Robert Henry wrote:

Orthos, how long will you leave recruitment open?

Probably through the weekend or so, not too long.

Looks like I should probably start working on my Knight Errant then...

OK, I'm going to spool up... a Crow (Tengu) something-or-other. :)

I'm going to try being the badger then, probably as a barbarian because that feels just proper.

<Waves at Robert Henry>

It would be amazing to be in a Kingmaker game with RH.

To be clear…badgers have this?

* Ability Score Modifiers: Naneval mutants are naturally tough and imposing, and their size makes them stronger, but less agile. They gain +2 Strength, –2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, +4 Charisma
* Size: Large. As Large creatures As Large creatures, naneval mutants take a –1 size penalty to their AC, a –1 size penalty on attack rolls, and a –4 size penalty on Stealth checks They gain a +1 bonus on combat maneuver checks and to their CMD. Naneval mutants take up a space that is 10 feet by 10 feet and have a reach of 5 feet.
* Speed: Slow. A naneval mutant’s base speed is 20 feet, but its speed is never modified by armor or encumbrance.
* Type: Monstrous Humanoid. A naneval mutant counts as both a monstrous humanoid and a humanoid with the rougaru subtype for the purpose of effects that can target either.
* Keen Smell: Naneval gain a +2 racial bonus on Perception and Sense Motive checks when they can potentially smell something, such as fear, musk, or sweat.
* Bloodwrath: Once per day, whenever a badger takes damage, it flies into a frenzy for 1 minute, gaining a +2 racial bonus to Constitution and Strength, but a –2 penalty to AC. This cannot be ended early.
* Ferocity: Once per day, when a badger is brought below 0 hit points but not killed, he can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. At the end of his next turn, unless brought to above 0 hit points, he immediately falls unconscious and begins dying.

Because…that is pretty awesome.

To be clear…badgers have this?

* Ability Score Modifiers: Naneval mutants are naturally tough and imposing, and their size makes them stronger, but less agile. They gain +2 Strength, –2 Dexterity, +2 Constitution, +4 Charisma
* Size: Large. As Large creatures As Large creatures, naneval mutants take a –1 size penalty to their AC, a –1 size penalty on attack rolls, and a –4 size penalty on Stealth checks They gain a +1 bonus on combat maneuver checks and to their CMD. Naneval mutants take up a space that is 10 feet by 10 feet and have a reach of 5 feet.
* Speed: Slow. A naneval mutant’s base speed is 20 feet, but its speed is never modified by armor or encumbrance.
* Type: Monstrous Humanoid. A naneval mutant counts as both a monstrous humanoid and a humanoid with the rougaru subtype for the purpose of effects that can target either.
* Keen Smell: Naneval gain a +2 racial bonus on Perception and Sense Motive checks when they can potentially smell something, such as fear, musk, or sweat.
* Bloodwrath: Once per day, whenever a badger takes damage, it flies into a frenzy for 1 minute, gaining a +2 racial bonus to Constitution and Strength, but a –2 penalty to AC. This cannot be ended early.
* Ferocity: Once per day, when a badger is brought below 0 hit points but not killed, he can fight on for 1 more round as if disabled. At the end of his next turn, unless brought to above 0 hit points, he immediately falls unconscious and begins dying.

Because…that is pretty awesome.

Yep, that's correct (minus that your type is Beast with [Mustelid] subtype). Redwall Badgers are badasses. And that along with story reasons (there's never a large amount of Badgers in the world, usually no more than one ruler of Salamandastron, one Badger Mother of Redwall, and their respective families and scattered clan) are why I'm limiting them to one in the party.

I'm going to try being the badger then, probably as a barbarian because that feels just proper.

Barb is 100% appropriate for Badgers. Fear the Bloodwrath!

Great, working on a non-unchained barbarian with both the drunken brute and the raging cannibal archetypes. I believe the later one is actually pretty appropriate in an animal focused setting.

Reading the other characters, lots of full BAB. So, instead of a hedgehog with reach weapon, I'm going with an otter (unchained) rogue, who has a pension for the lute. Maybe he can play back up for tawnystripe. I'll get the crunch done and dig into Redwall for a back story...

bigrig107 wrote:

Would you be open to allowing the oracle? There's a super thematic curse I'd like to use (cold-blooded), and certainly fits why she'd not be a normal 'villain' of her species.

I understand that it'd likely be limited to 6th level spells, would there be any other changes?

You know what, Oracle's flavor does work in (this game's version of) this world, kinda the same way Witch does, so I'll allow it. Use the Inquisitor charts for spells known and spells per day, but otherwise you should be able to run it as written.

Missed this at first, gonna go back to Oracle I think. Looking into mysteries now.

I know some of the mysteries add SLA eventually that may be above 6th or stuff like animal companions, I'll just avoid those options.

Maybe he can play back up for tawnystripe.

The heck with founding a kingdom. We just want to play music. Lets form a band!!!!

The badger can be the roadie :-). NOBODY is going to mess with a band that has a badger as its roadie.

Here is Sir Longears's work in progress. Crunch is mostly done, now need to delve into the setting (that I'm not familiar with) to work on background.

I'm assuming two traits, one from campaign (kingmaker?), and average gold. let me know if these are not true.

The badger can be the roadie :-). NOBODY is going to mess with a band that has a badger as its roadie.

Nah, I'm the vocalist. I swear I'd picked Perform (sing) before reading about this band thing lol

Now @Orthos, jokes aside, I know how these "theme" ideas (the band) can go off and be something you were not planning or eager to do. I picked the perform because I was looking for something cool. Can easily change to something else if you prefer.

I bow to Sir Longears picking a badger. His looks pretty good. I'll think of something else.

I'm assuming two traits, one from campaign (kingmaker?), and average gold. let me know if these are not true.

Correct.

And yeah we're not going to do an actual band, but it's actually very common for Redwall stories to include singing - be it traveling songs, storytelling songs around campfires, or historical songs that contain plot hints. So it fits!

Room for a fox alchemist?

Room for a fox alchemist?

Sneaksy foxes! If you can explain why you're working with Redwall, have at it. Use the kitsune statblock, but you must replace Change Shape - any other replacement trait allowed, even if that's not the normal swap. Your type is Animal [Canine], no [Shapechanger] subtype.

I'll fiddle with the idea. If you're full without me, no worries. There's every chance I'll get busy with work and not have time.

I'm working on a mouse swashbuckler/paladin.

I have a question: do the inhabitants of Redwall ride mounts? Like, is there any use for the Ride skill?

I have a question: do the inhabitants of Redwall ride mounts? Like, is there any use for the Ride skill?

Not to my knowledge/memory, nor do they have any sort of domesticated animals to ride. Hence why I removed animal companions from Cavalier/Ranger/Hunter.

What is our starting wealth?

This is sr, going with a Crow Rogue... Rogue Crow? Either way, it seemed like an unfilled niche. I'll work on his backstory, description, and generally cleaning up his profile over the weekend.

Here's what I'm working with for a swashbuckler/paladin application: Dahlia Churchmouse. Still have to work out her background and write up a description.