Supreme Beings Pathfinder 2E

Game Master scranford

Wow! You are right. I could have sworn I read somewhere that it would let you point out concealed things. Must have been dreaming in my new incarnation of Pathfinder 3rd Edition. :-)

Good job so far. You guys are picking up on the teamwork required to be successful in PF2e well. Just a few options that might be useful going forward. Please don't take this as saying you guys did anything wrong, just an opportunity to point out the Horizontal progression of PF2, compared to the vertical progression of most previous games. (More than one way to skin a cat).

* It's always helpful if someone makes a "Recall Knowledge Check" early in the combat. In this case this would have revealed that the creature has a weakness to magical light (Light cast on a sword!!!), and double damage resistance to non-magical weapons. With a success a someone could ask a question like... (Does it look like it might be quick enough to have a reactive strike?).

* While it was a great idea for Lil to expose the dark room to light, another option would have been to use a free action to shout for the shopkeeper or his wife to sling open the curtains, thus allowing Lil to take other options.

* Monsters are different in PF2e. We all tend to use out of character knowledge to judge what the creature is, and apply that to the character actions... but monsters are just different enough in this rendition to make misjudgments dangerous... thus refer to the first suggestion...

* Recall knowledge can be used "untrained" by anyone so while you stand a much better chance of uncovering things if you are trained sometimes a d20 +2 RK is a more effective option than a third attack at -10.

* Determining that this was an undead creature would open up the ability for Alorea to use the Heal/harm spell to both heal the party and harm the creature. ie the (3) Action Heal spell would heal all the party in a 30' emanation... but also possibly (Fort Save) damage any undead as well.

* Speaking of healing, sometimes it's best to wait a round for healing before charging in. You're no good to those you defend if you die trying. In this case Telurion played his character well, as the young inexperienced village warrior eager to protect the innocent and prove his courage... but older Wiser Telurion might stop for a moment to let someone bandage that worst wound or provide some healing before proceeding.

Please let me know if you wish me to continue to point out options or not. I planned on doing so until you guys leveled up to get more familiar with the system, but if you'd prefer to "learn the hard way", I'm more than willing to withhold these options.

Since it's difficult to award Hero Points based on adventuring time in PbP. I'll let you guys know when they reset, and award them after every encounter if justified. Nobody used a Hero Point... of which you all started with (2) due to previous actions, so don't forget you have them. In this case they won't be awarded till after this encounter is complete, but I currently have (1) going to Telurion for his role-playing the brash young warrior despite his injuries, and (1) to Lil for the situational awareness of opening the window to let the sunlight in.

I want out to point out that you tipped us off, SB, to light being useful in a good way. When a GM points something out like light levels or says something like 'That pitchfork has silver tines." it usually is a subtle hint that it matters.

So just to be clear, can we use Athletics to jump out the window in the hope of not taking any damage with a good roll…

I was thinking about the same thing myself :)

And I welcome the tips and suggestions SB!

I don't think so. There's High Jump and Long Jump but nothing for damage mitigation. Obviously, SB could make exceptions, but there are no RAW Athletics actions for fall damage mitigation.

To be fair, by mid-level there are so many ways to make falling damage, even from insane heights, do nothing at all, that they might not have even considered something like that, especially since the amount of falling damage is so much less than most D&D editions or clones.

Also, I should have landed Prone, so my action 3 would have had to been to Stand. Cat Fall doesn't let you land on your feet until Legendary.

New jumping down rules:

• Jumping Down: Since there really aren’t rules for jumping down, I’ll make one up. For one thing just falling eliminates the first 5’ of damage with no actions spent. I’m not a big fan of this and think it should take an Acrobatics check to reduce that… but I’m Okay with leaving it like it is.

Spend one action making either athletics, or acrobatics roll as part of your movement. The DC of this check is the distance of the drop.

* Critical Success: You reduce the distance of the drop by 10’ and land on your feet if terrain allows. *

* Success: You reduce the distance of the drop by 10’* but land prone.

* Failure: You treat this just like falling from the listed distance

* Critical Failure: You misjudge your leap and increase the distance of the fall by 10’ and land prone.

*NOTE: Cat fall stacks with this distance and moves the success level up one category.

In this instance since Lil is trained to fall and land she could choose to spend an action and make a check to see if she can reduce the fall further. If she succeeded she would take no damage since she reduced the fall another 10', and land on her feet (Since we increase the result up a level).... but she would need to take this extra action before leaping.

NOTE: If you want to retcon I will allow...

I think you guys are complicating this a bit more than necessary. We are staying in initiative but abstracting the movement for simplicity's sake.

If you run down the stairs immediately you will arrive withing 20' of the Gazebo in 4 rounds.

Lil jumped out which means she arrives within 20' of the Gazebo in 3-rounds.

If you choose to follow the new jump rules you will arrive 45' from the gazebo in 3-rounds. (Action to take the "Jump Down" action results in one less action to move. Each further action will also affect this distance. For instance, everything but a Critical Success would take another action to stand from prone moving the distance away to 70'). so, the net result on anything but a critical Success (30) would only get you there a bit (2-seconds) faster since you must jump and stand from prone, and probably with damage.

Climbing would take 3 actions just to get down and require a DC20 athletics check. Then you would still be 75' from the Gazebo.

Alorea will keep it simple and just run down the stairs.

I think you guys are complicating this a bit more than necessary.

By wanting to do something heroic like jumping out a window to save children from being attacked by dreadful disembodied hands? :P

In any case, Telurion will run down the stairs. Keeping it simple.

On a side note, I will be traveling from early tomorrow until Monday, so my posting will be sparse.

Supreme Being wrote:

I think you guys are complicating this a bit more than necessary.

By wanting to do something heroic like jumping out a window to save children from being attacked by dreadful disembodied hands? :P

In any case, Telurion will run down the stairs. Keeping it simple.

Not the action... the complication of the movement to get there. The action is certainly heroic... and I made up a new rule to allow you to be heroic. Just saying it's not that much faster... which I thought was your goal. If it took twice as long to run down the stairs then the action might be less attractive.

I do think jumping out the window should take half the time - that would be a nice adjudication of an heroic, exciting, and dangerous action! But lets not get dragged into the rabbit hole of rules vs. rulings, since that is not why we are here ;)

Thank you for the new jumping rules, I will consider them for next time.

I do think jumping out the window should take half the time - that would be a nice adjudication of an heroic, exciting, and dangerous action! But lets not get dragged into the rabbit hole of rules vs. rulings, since that is not why we are here ;)

Thank you for the new jumping rules, I will consider them for next time.

Agreed. This can get complicated. The leap action is part of your movement, but only allows 10' horizontal, and 3' vertical (Up) with bonuses for higher speed. If you want to go further, you have to take the Jump action which is not part of your movement. If you notice I stated that jumping down was part of your movement so it's a way to basically use the jump like leap. Part of your move action. So it is basically half time because you don't have to use both a stride and a jump.

Eh, I can’t follow any of this. Way too complicated.

The only reason I mentioned the Athletics check was because I thought someone else mentioned it but then the option seemed to be gone and then I asked if we could and [throws hands up in the air] it all got way too complicated - I honestly couldn’t follow it.

Adayil will jump out the window.

Weird. Somehow the dog and two of the hands got moved. I’ve locked them now. I might have done it myself.

Ok, so that RK info essentially leaves me as in the dark as I was before. I find it weird to be asking for more information, given I also find the whole RK thing a bit…off.

“They are necromantic”. Ok. So what? I don’t know what necromantic really means in terms of what I can do. Is this anything to do with unholy/holy/sanctified?

“They are probably undead”. Ok, so what? I have no idea what interactions there are, or that I might have, to with defeating undead. Do undead share anything likely to help me target these things?

“They are weak but quick”. So…they move fast, but will likely die with a hit or two? Or do you mean they have good Reflexes but poor Fortitude? If the latter, that might help.

And before you get upset for me being obstreporous - I’m not, I’m just not really used to RK.

I have seen some GM’s say “for RK, don’t forget to ask a question”, meaning target a specific type of area of knowledge like “saves” or “abilities” or “defenses” or “attack types”. Not sure I want to go down that route….

RK can be very useful, but it can also be GM-dependent, and some of the clues may depend on player knowledge as well.

For SBs clues, I, too, am not sure what to make of 'necromantic'. The second clue would indicate that they have typical undead immunities. That requires system knowledge.

The third clue is clearly saves.

When I GM, I tend to give some idea of what the creature is, and some lore 'Those are soul dolls, and they are constructs powered by the soul of a living being.' Then, for the crunch, I mostly focus on Weaknesses, Resistances, and Immunities.

As an example, in my first PF2 game that I ran, the Wizard was an electricity-focused character named 'Electric Man.' It was /much/ more useful for him to know 'Electricity does not work on this monster' than 'It has good Reflex saves.'

I am also not a fan of what is its lowest save, etc. RAW does say to ask a question, but I think at the moment, we'll all need to adjust to how he does RK. Give it a few fights, and once we have a feel for how he does it, it'll be easier to interpret what he gives out.

The answers are vague because it’s a RK Religion roll… not occult, so your roll was lower and you didn’t recover as much info as if this had been a RK Religion roll. More would be uncovered with the correct knowledge skill, but there isn’t a lot to uncover with this creature. Your adjusted 16 told you what it was, that it was undead, and that its unnaturally fast. The hint about Alorea also hints that it is a Religion roll.

Before you rolled your group has never seen such a thing and didn’t know this was undead. Does this help the group with tactics? Perhaps the remaining characters may change their approach knowing this if it is shared.

Instead of quoting game rules I try to generalize the info. Necromancy is messing around with undead… so it was telling you that this is an undead creation called crawling hands. The quick statement also applies to its movement. A RK Religion roll would reveal more… like resistances, vulnerabilities etc. but this simple creature doesn’t have a lot of those.

Adayil knows it’s an undead creature typically created with foul magic that is unnaturally quick.

Also, this is the third undead creature your group has recently fought, though none of your characters have identified the specific creatures through trial and error you've uncovered some things about them. There is a pattern developing here??? I so RK is becoming important to overcoming these things.

BTW I did use your RK: Religion score to adjust the roll which is based on the DC of the creature. Had I used your original roll your RK would be... "What the ^()*) is that thing"? :-).

Ok. Thanks for the details/responses Lil/SB.

Thanks for botting me SB!

Thanks for the hero point reminder. I'm still not using any here. I tend to save them for critical situations, and I think we're in decent shape here and who knows how many more waves of undead we'll have to face. But, I do appreciate the reminder.

Personally I’ve decided not to engage with Hero Points going forward. I find they interfere with the third force in the game (the first two being the GM/setting and the Players) that I come to think of as “fate” (i.e. the die roll) via “re-rolls” in the first instance and they trivialise the consequences of well…death in the second via auto-stabilising/burning all remaining Hero Points to avoid death.

Happy for others to use them…

240 XP sounds right. I don't normally keep up with the totals as my players don't let me forget that... but with PbP it might be convenient for me to keep it updated in the campaign profile.

Just an FYI I'm off Friday - Monday for the Memorial Day Holiday... so if I don't post much that's why.

Movement to the area the shouts are coming from is normally a 3-minute walk. (#4 on Town map in Discord). Any Exploration activities other than hustle will double that time... so let me know what your exploration activities are.

I'll get up a map to the new encounter area before the weekend is over... but forgive me if I take some time off to cool down my brain activity.

As far as Hero Points go... I like them. You are hero's and sometimes destiny and/or Fate blesses you as cut above individuals. I find that in my real-life games nobody has saved their HP for saving themselves, and I've had a few encounters that were down to one PC and the last few Hit Points with no Hero Points left. (Near TPK). Having said that it's certainly up to the character / player if they wish to use them or not. So far you guys have had it pretty easy... but it's early... :-)

Depending on the weather if I get stuck inside this weekend, I'll try to create a Town map for OBR.

I'm also starting to re-think using the AP for the Lost Lands. After reading it they really didn't do a stellar job of implementing the PF2 rules and will require quite a bit of re-tooling to make them accurate. I've got a ton of Lost Lands content, and some original ideas so if everyone is cool with it we'll just keep playing and see where it leads us. PF2's balanced encounter creation really makes me tend to think of more original encounters based around the PC's.

Alorea will Hustle to get to the screams more quickly.

Akira will share the skeletons resistances with the rest of the party if allowed before they act. No time to write up a full post right now.

Remember no prepatory actions... so no carrying around loaded weapons or melee weapons. My house rule is that if you are using the defend action you can choose to have a weapon ready... not just a shield. In this case Caks would have to take an action to ready his sling, and an action to load it before attacking. Letting you already have the sling out and loaded is like giving you two extra actions. Notice the Skeletal Champion had to ready his lance, so had no actions left to attack. This puts everyone on an equal footing.

If you had been taking defend instead of hustle, then you would only be halfway to the encounter... so please readjust your actions. NOBODY is ready before initiative is rolled..

I'm not seeing anything on the map except a large red square. Have you not had the chance to put us or the skellies on it yet?

Zoom out and look to the Northwest of the red covered bridge. I thought I hit the match current view.

Were we not carrying on following the attack of the hands?? If that were the case, she already had the sling out and loaded...sorry if that were not the case, then she would use her time to retrieve the sling and load it.

Nope. New location, and initiative count. New map as well.

So (2) Actions to draw & load... then (1) to move or (1) to Strike?

gotcha...will repost...thanks! :-) Is a 5' step still a thing in PF2? ie. a free movement??

5' Step is now called a Step.

Step: Still takes an action. You carefully move 5 feet. Unlike most types of movement, Stepping doesn't trigger reactions, such as Reactive Strike, that can be triggered by move actions or upon leaving or entering a square.

You can't Step into difficult terrain, and you can't Step using a Speed other than your land Speed.

PF2 is very balanced. Almost everything takes an action... but you can later take feats to enhance your action economy.

For example, "Quick Draw" let's you draw a weapon for free... thereby helping out with the action economy. Horizontal Advancement...

@Caks: you’ll note in my previous in-game post my cheeky OOC reference to Adayil foolishly stowing her weapon even though enemies are known, and all around us. ;)

@Caks: you’ll note in my previous in-game post my cheeky OOC reference to Adayil foolishly stowing her weapon even though enemies are known, and all around us. ;)

hehe

Follow up question to Telurion’s in combat rules question: would Caustic Blast which affects an “Area 5’ burst” and says

Creatures in the area take 1d8 acid damage with a basic Reflex save; on a critical failure, the creature also takes 1 persistent acid damage.

affect both the skeleton rider and the skeleton horse?

Also wanting to know whether players need to specify whether their characters immediately broadcast their RK info or whether we all just receive the info and can act accordingly.

It wouldn’t have changed my action, I fully spaced out and forgot about the resistance to slashing and in my mind a falchion has the hefty axe-like smashing power that would remove the slashing resistance. Yay! Hi imagination, meet rules.

The burst should affect both rider and horse, yes. Though it could also get some of us depending on placement.

I'm also curious about how you deal with RK info sharing, SB. I assume it's shouted out when I run, so all PCs can use the info, but I don't know how you do it.

Also, it took us time to get to the bridge. Has the Enfeebled fallen off from Telurion, and if not, do we know how long it will be before it does?

* The burst affects everyone and thing within its area.
Burst

There are some spell effect templates in the bottom menu of OBR if you wish to use them to show Area of effects.

* I'll let you guys decide how you want to share RK. It's a little difficult in PbP because while you want to share it most of the time, there are instances (When Stealth is preferred, or information needs to be kept from nearby individuals etc.). We can go with it's usually shared unless there might be a reason to keep it silent in which case I'll slow the pace down until you let me know what you want to do.

* The Enfeebled is still on Telurion. I know the duration and am keeping track of time so I will let you guys know when it's off.

* If we agree the information was shared feel free to adjust what she cast Runic weapon on. Club? Sap? Just be sure to have the correct order when you state your actions. In this case she cast the spell, then did the RK check... but I'm not going to enforce things that closely... just try to keep things in order.

* I removed the covered bridge and creek from the OBR drawing as they have no effect on the combat anyway.

FYI constantly bringing up the fact that PF2 doesn't allow for readied weapons is not going to change the rule. There is no surprise in PF2 and except for my house rule no readied weapons if you're not in Encounter Mode... So, I ask you nicely to either quit talking about it or do it via PM. I'm not going to change this rule, nor spend extra time adjusting every encounter so that the enemies are prepared as well.

The burst should affect both rider and horse, yes. Though it could also get some of us depending on placement.

I'm also curious about how you deal with RK info sharing, SB. I assume it's shouted out when I run, so all PCs can use the info, but I don't know how you do it.

Also, it took us time to get to the bridge. Has the Enfeebled fallen off from Telurion, and if not, do we know how long it will be before it does?

The only way to know how long the effect lasts would be to do a successful RK check on the creature, and either roll very high, or succeed, and ask a specific question about that ability.

Only the same type of bonus doesn't stack in PF2... so Vicious strike which is a unnamed bonus (But a Flourish), and Runic Weapon which is an Item bonus would stack. so, +1 to hit from Runic (Wipes out the enfeebled penalty), and (3) damage dice. As to switching to two hands on the attack you still have the Shield equipped (Interact Action), but not raised so in order to go to two-handed damage you would have to drop the shield (Free action) or stow it (Interact Action). A buckler allows you to use that hand without action penalty.

Yes... There are rules for everything!!!

Hang on, what is two handed damage?!? I didn’t think that was a thing in PF2!?! Like in PF1 it was 1.5 x Str bonus right? Because Adayil is definitely swinging her falchion two handed.

It is a weapon trait for some weapons. Not a Falchion. Weapons have traits and properties in PF2. The are not all the same like other systems. In addition at higher levels you can invoke their special critical effects. (see Archives of Nethys).

A Falchion has the Forceful and Sweep traits.

Yep I know that - it’s on my sheet! You mean the different die-size for two handing a bastard sword? That’s not really the same as “two handed strength bonus”.

Ok, as you were, everyone. Clearly nothing to see here! ;)

* I'll let you guys decide how you want to share RK. It's a little difficult in PbP because while you want to share it most of the time, there are instances (When Stealth is preferred, or information needs to be kept from nearby individuals etc.). We can go with it's usually shared unless there might be a reason to keep it silent in which case I'll slow the pace down until you let me know what you want to do.

So I am assuming Telurion was warned ahead of time, and the Runic Weapon was cast on his club.

I don't think PF2e is harder than PF1 in PbP, though I do think PF2 is harder than PF1.

Why? Well, because as Scranford points out, there *is* a reliance on tactics and teamwork.

Our party has (1) frontliner - Telurion. And a frontliner really benefits from Flanking, causing foes to be off-guard and increasing the frontliner's ability to score crits. And, the flanker's ability to hit and score crits. And also to spread the incoming foe's strikes and resultant damage around.

Adayil has been trying to provide this tactical flanking, but decided in the last round to try somehting different, and moved away from flanking to use Breathe Fire in a manner which would not burn her friends.

But a squishy Witch with a brave falchion shouldn't be doing this.

I feel Caks should be providing this role. Possibly Alorea, but I'm happy with her staying further out so she can stay alive and heal.

The one Rogue I got to play to 3rd level used a rapier/shortsword combo with Twin Feint. a first level Rogue feat. Twin Feint, with two Action, makes two strikes, (one with each of your weapons) and causes the foe to be automatically be off-guard to the second strike - so the first attack is at top attack bonus, and although the second strike is at -4 for (MAP-with agile) it is against off-guard so really -2.

Additionally, because of the off-guard condition created by Twin Feint, that second attack gets Sneak attack (+1d6 precision damage), and if the Rogue was also flanking at the time, the first attack would too, because of the Raper being finesse. You could do the same thing with two shortswords, but I liked to have a mix of piercing and slashing capabilities. So you are adding a possible +2d6 damage to your attack routine of 1d6/1d6 every round, or more if you attack with your third Action. And with the off-guard created either by your flank or the Twin Feint your chance of scoring a Crit increases.

Caks....fires a sling. Maaaybe twice a round. And I get it, Caks is a sneaky ratfolk, and good at out of combat traps and tricks.

BUT:

Unless we have a more meaningful melee combatant to provide flanking for Telurion, we will struggle. And a Rogue CAN totally do that. I don't mean to single you out Daniel, but this is how I see it. Don't just sneak around lobbing slingstones. Mix it up and fight. Flank with Telurion. Use your third Action to Stride away and get out of danger. Then next round, Stride Back in, make one Strike and Stride back out.
Whatever works, within the changing landscape of the battle. That is what I really like about PF2 is that there actually is a tactical flow that I didn't always find in PF1.

Remember folks, I'm no powergamer or optimiser - I worked all that Rogue stuff out for myself by reading the Player Core. Only later did I start investigating Scoundrel Rogues that could wield 1d8 weapons and *still* get Sneak Attacks.

The other thing Adayil has is Battle Medicine, so she can provide First Aid of at least 2d8 to herself or a nearby ally - so she kinda *wants* to be near Telurion. On this score I'm guilty as charged, I totally chose this for in game mechanical benefits, but her being the healer of her scouting party worked really well with her backstory.

But mostly, right now? Adayil needs to get her club out and notdie.

I think we've had a lot of teamwork, even if it might not seem like it on the surface.

One thing that I want to say is that wave fights are very hard to pull off in PF2, especially at low level, and Scranford is doing an amazing job. It's been narratively exciting and a lot of fun!

I don't think that anything you said is objectively wrong, but I do think that you are emphasizing Flanked a little too much for Telurion.

Telurion is a Fighter. He starts with Expert in weapons, giving him +2 over all other martial (except Gunslingers with firearms/crossbows). He starts better with unarmed attacks than a monk does.

He will hit and crit more than any of us, math speaking, over the entire course of the game. Sure, Flanking still helps him, don't get me wrong, but he does not /need/ it to be effective. It could help the rest of us, however, when we are in melee, so it /is/ good advice from you.

In regard to Caks, given what we are fighting, Caks is using proper tactics. Firstly, undead are not immune to crits in this edition, but almost all of them are immune to Precision damage. So, Sneak Attack does nothing. Secondly, in this fight, we are against skeletons. Blunt weapons are good against skeletons, a dagger would not be.

Against Zombies, that would flip, and a dagger would be a better choice to use.

I do agree that we can be more mobile. It's pretty easy to get into the stand in front of a monster and Strike, Strike, something. Most monsters do not have Reactive Strikes. However, almost all monsters that look like Fighters, like a skeletal horse rider, do!

I think at this point, we're all still adjusting to Scranford's style of GMing, and our characters and the group. I know that I did not envison Lil being in melee range as often as she has been. I also know I'll be retraining at least one power, as I've been finding it hard to set up cones, so I've not even used my cone power.

We also have a ton of healing, especially out of combat, with Medicine, and my Ocean's Balm. That gives us a lot of leeway as we learn each other's styles.

We are only in our second fight, and it's a very unusual one. I think we're doing really well.