Your character is also mostly finished. Please check the Discord PC channel for a few things to finish up. Once this is done and your Alias is updated can begin your story.
Castorhage... the Blight calls you home...
Your character sheet is mostly finished. I made a post in your PC channel in Discord. Once you get these questions answered, and your alias updated we'll be ready to start your journey.
I have a village picked out for you to be from, and will start your journey to Raven in the near future.
Discord questions are answered, and the profile here is updated with an appearance tab as requested.
Just checking out how linking maps from Discord work on these boards.
I'll have time this weekend to get everyone started on their path to Raven. I'll also detail a little more of the village.
Just as an option has anyone here played the Lost Lands Adventure The Tomb of Abysthor. Might steal some stuff from that.
Never played that one.
Nor I.
I've never played any Lost Lands, so, also not me.
Do you guys mind if I tie your characters together for part of the journey?
I have no problem with that... :-)
I also have no problem with that.
Well, I had time this weekend, but it was such beautiful weather... and the end of Bike Week in Daytona so I didn't spend much time in front of the computer. I'll get us all rolling shortly...
Only Lillanith to go. I'll most likely get to that tomorrow.
@Supreme Being - sent you a note in the PC-Adayil discord channel...
I will be on vacation next week without internet access, so I will not be able to post until I return on Monday, March 25th.
I'm going to give you guys a few days to RP out your introductions. Everyone is in town except for Lillanith and Caks so I'll RP them a bit on their journey. Please feel free to build rapport between the PC's and I'll keep an eye on things and interject as desired.
Looks like Alorea will be enjoying the hospitality of the Meadery for a bit, so feel free to proceed without input from her for now.
Still looking like sometime the first week of April to get the Adventure started for real.
Sounds good to me.
It sounds good to me as well.
Now that everybody is here or at least close and enroute, I thought I'd take a little time to play out some of the less common things used in Pathfinder 2. We are kind of in encounter mode now, but it's social encounter time, and no need to role initiative... unless that's your chosen method of introduction.
There are three ways you can choose to influence others in the game; Deception, Diplomacy, and Intimidation. Each of the encountered individuals in the gameplay thread start out with an initial attitude towards your characters which can be adjusted up or down by using your social skills. The DC of the social encounter is based upon how strong that initial attitude is, and how difficult it is to change it.
The initial attitudes are as follows:
Helpful: Willing to help you and responds favorably to your requests.
Friendly: Has a good attitude toward you, but won't necessarily stick their neck out to help you.
Indifferent: Doesn't care about you either way. (Most NPCs start out indifferent.)
Unfriendly: Dislikes you and doesn't want to help you.
Hostile: Actively works against you—and might attack you just because of their dislike.
Though not stated in the rules I would allow "Sense Motive" check using Perception to judge their initial attitude with a Critical Success giving the current status, and critical failure resulting in misreading their feelings.
As a quick example using the encounter with the wolf.
1. Deception: Lie We got separated in the woods, but the remainder of our party is close by
2. Diplomacy: Make an impressionPlease. We mean no harm Could you let us pass and be on our way. Here have some meat. (This is what is currently being attempted).
3. Intimidation: Coerce I suggest you put away those big teeth or you're going to find out how they feel headed out your other exit.
There are of course countless alternatives to these approaches, but these are the most common that reequire skill checks.
So please choose what check you are making and proceed with the rolling. I always adjust DC's based on how you roleplay the encounter or might hand out Hero points.
In this case it's going to be fine to have everybody take the social action, but another option is to use the Aid action, and let the most likely to succeed individual make the roll.
Aid
{reaction}
Source Player Core pg. 416
Trigger An ally is about to use an action that requires a skill check or attack roll.
Requirements The ally is willing to accept your aid, and you have prepared to help (see below).
You try to help your ally with a task. To use this reaction, you must first prepare to help, usually by using an action during your turn. You must explain to the GM exactly how you're trying to help, and they determine whether you can Aid your ally.
When you use your Aid reaction, attempt a skill check or attack roll of a type decided by the GM. The typical DC is 15, but the GM might adjust this DC for particularly hard or easy tasks. The GM can add any relevant traits to your preparatory action or to your Aid reaction depending on the situation, or even allow you to Aid checks other than skill checks and attack rolls.
Critical Success You grant your ally a +2 circumstance bonus to the triggering check. If you're a master with the check you attempted, the bonus is +3, and if you're legendary, it's +4.
Success You grant your ally a +1 circumstance bonus to the triggering check.
Critical Failure Your ally takes a –1 circumstance penalty to the triggering check.
From a gamist point of view, what is the point of using Sense Motive before your attempt to influence them? Is it to gauge whether or not you need to use Diplomacy, Deception or Intimidation? Does a good Sense Motive score give you a bonus to your next roll (whether Diplomacy, Deception or Intimidation)?
Ultimately, I can see a couple of factors coming in to play in which skill to use - you can't always use your highest bonus skill, because the situation may not demand it, or the risks of failure/possible negative outcomes are too great.
So I would like the Sense Motive to give you some indication of not just how disposed toward being friendly or hostile the target is, but also what you think might or might not work. A kind of Sense Social Etiquette or the like.
In Adayil's case:
Critical Success - The priest probably likes dumplings and will be conducive to cooking small talk (Do not try to Deceive or Intimidate; +2 to Diplomacy; or attempt a lower DC if you use Lore: Religious Dumplings)
Success - The priest appears friendly, if stern. (Do not try to Deceive or Intimidate, +1 to Diplomacy)
Failure - The priest is a fat prelate.(Can use any skill)
Critical Failure - The priest is a fat fool and easily scared. (You should try to Intimidate or Deceive).
As for Aid:
[Full disclosure, this is a comment I made in antoher PF2 games that no-one really answered to my satisfaction...)
So essentially you are first using the Aid Action. Which is a Reaction, that needs a skill to be used as an Action first.
Weird way of the ruleset explaining Aid that’s for sure. Why can’t they just say in point form what needs to happen, and the way both Trigger and Requirements read is… confusing. And every Aid attempt is really a skill check as an Action, but what really confuses me is this:
To use this reaction, you must first prepare to help, usually by using an action during your turn.
Do they mean “Action” the mechanic or narrative “action” i.e. describing what you are doing? That’s why I get confused, because Aid is a Reaction that is also an Action (skill check). Or is it? This hurts my head, an I’m clearly overthinking it. Never mind…
Now that everybody is here or at least close and enroute, I thought I'd take a little time to play out some of the less common things used in Pathfinder 2. We are kind of in encounter mode now, but it's social encounter time, and no need to role initiative... unless that's your chosen method of introduction.
If that is acceptable to you Supreme Being, I'll just roleplay, and you roll what you find appropriate (if/when deemed necessary). Does that work? :)
I'm kind of agreeing with Telurion... It seems very odd to write an in character piece that makes sense to the character, world and story, and then have the dice roll completely be at odds with the written work.
Player (to town guards): "I hate you and want you to die burning in a plague filled s~@+e-ditch!"
DM: Roll Diplomacy.
[Player rolls Diplomacy, with a -4 penalty due to being horrifically mutilated and stinky] Natural 20!
DM: Though initially Unfriendly, the guards become your best friends forever!
or:
Player (to character's beloved NPC twin sister, after 508 years of adventuring together): Tells a long story of several paragraphs detailing various instances of very well written companionship that contains one tiny white lie to soften the impact of a terrible occurrence that was no-one's fault, including seven sonnets and one act of immensely moving acrobatic performance art.
DM: Roll Deception.
[Player rolls a Nat 1]
DM: Your sister becomes Hostile!
From a gamist point of view, what is the point of using Sense Motive before your attempt to influence them? Is it to gauge whether or not you need to use Diplomacy, Deception or Intimidation? Does a good Sense Motive score give you a bonus to your next roll (whether Diplomacy, Deception or Intimidation)?
Ultimately, I can see a couple of factors coming in to play in which skill to use - you can't always use your highest bonus skill, because the situation may not demand it, or the risks of failure/possible negative outcomes are too great.
So I would like the Sense Motive to give you some indication of not just how disposed toward being friendly or hostile the target is, but also what you think might or might not work. A kind of Sense Social Etiquette or the like.
In Adayil's case:
Critical Success - The priest probably likes dumplings and will be conducive to cooking small talk (Do not try to Deceive or Intimidate; +2 to Diplomacy; or attempt a lower DC if you use Lore: Religious Dumplings)
Success - The priest appears friendly, if stern. (Do not try to Deceive or Intimidate, +1 to Diplomacy)
Failure - The priest is a fat prelate.(Can use any skill)
Critical Failure - The priest is a fat fool and easily scared. (You should try to Intimidate or Deceive).
You don't have to use the "Sense Motive" action if you don't wish to. I see it as kind of reading the room. If you sense someone is hostile, then you know they're getting ready to attack. If they are helpful go right to asking what you want. Mainly used to tell if someone is being honest with you.
As for Aid:
[Full disclosure, this is a comment I made in antoher PF2 games that no-one really answered to my satisfaction...)
So essentially you are first using the Aid Action. Which is a Reaction, that needs a skill to be used as an Action first.
Weird way of the ruleset explaining Aid that’s for sure. Why can’t they just say in point form what needs to happen, and the way both Trigger and Requirements read is… confusing. And every Aid attempt is really a skill check as an Action, but what really confuses me is this:
To use this reaction, you must first prepare to help, usually by using an action during your turn.Do they mean “Action” the mechanic or narrative “action” i.e. describing what you are doing? That’s why I get confused, because Aid is a Reaction that is also an Action (skill check). Or is it? This hurts my head, an I’m clearly overthinking it. Never mind…
Everybody gets one reaction in a round. So, the Aid reaction can't be used if you're taking other reactions. ie... "I'm holding this heavy curtain back so Player B can make an athletics check".
The "prep" action is to get ready to aid when the reaction is triggered.
You have to have some rules to play by... or not. I prefer to have quantified rules. If you want to run everything "Off the Cuff" then Pathfinder 2 is probably not the ideal game for you.
I'm kind of agreeing with Telurion... It seems very odd to write an in character piece that makes sense to the character, world and story, and then have the dice roll completely be at odds with the written work.
Player (to town guards): "I hate you and want you to die burning in a plague filled s*%#e-ditch!"
DM: Roll Diplomacy.
[Player rolls Diplomacy, with a -4 penalty due to being horrifically mutilated and stinky] Natural 20!
DM: Though initially Unfriendly, the guards become your best friends forever!
or:
Player (to character's beloved NPC twin sister, after 508 years of adventuring together): Tells a long story of several paragraphs detailing various instances of very well written companionship that contains one tiny white lie to soften the impact of a terrible occurrence that was no-one's fault, including seven sonnets and one act of immensely moving acrobatic performance art.
DM: Roll Deception.
[Player rolls a Nat 1]
DM: Your sister becomes Hostile!
All random dice rolling games have the risk of either succeeding better than you expected or failing miserably. In fact, I find PF2 is better than most in this instance. For example, in your post above, if the Guards Will DC was 18, then though the player rolled a 20 she still failed the roll, so she only moved the success from a "failure " to a success. So Hostile moves to unfriendly... not best friends forever. Natural 20's and Natural 1's only shift the success level not guarantee a critical. If his Will DC was a 16 then it became a critical, which would move his attitude to indifferent, not friendly or helpful. That's one thing I like about the (4) levels of success.
Also, not everything calls for a roll... only if there are consequences for your roll. You wouldn't roll the second example because the situation isn't likely to cause conflict. In the "gameplay" examples there are consequences to how you approach the situations.
If you don't have rules to adjuvate the success of your character, then you're just playing make believe like we did as kids. Nothing wrong with that... just not viable in a game with random success determination.
Now that everybody is here or at least close and enroute, I thought I'd take a little time to play out some of the less common things used in Pathfinder 2. We are kind of in encounter mode now, but it's social encounter time, and no need to role initiative... unless that's your chosen method of introduction.If that is acceptable to you Supreme Being, I'll just roleplay, and you roll what you find appropriate (if/when deemed necessary). Does that work? :)
I don't mind making these rolls for you... in fact RAW suggests that these rolls be made as secret rolls... I just find that most of my players want the agency of rolling checks for themselves. I only need you to tell me which social skill you're using if it's not obvious.
As for Aid:
[Full disclosure, this is a comment I made in antoher PF2 games that no-one really answered to my satisfaction...)
So essentially you are first using the Aid Action. Which is a Reaction, that needs a skill to be used as an Action first.
Weird way of the ruleset explaining Aid that’s for sure. Why can’t they just say in point form what needs to happen, and the way both Trigger and Requirements read is… confusing. And every Aid attempt is really a skill check as an Action, but what really confuses me is this:
To use this reaction, you must first prepare to help, usually by using an action during your turn.Do they mean “Action” the mechanic or narrative “action” i.e. describing what you are doing? That’s why I get confused, because Aid is a Reaction that is also an Action (skill check). Or is it? This hurts my head, an I’m clearly overthinking it. Never mind…Everybody gets one reaction in a round. So, the Aid reaction can't be used if you're taking other reactions. ie... "I'm holding this heavy curtain back so Player B can make an athletics check".
The "prep" action is to get ready to aid when the reaction is triggered.
You have to have some rules to play by... or not. I prefer to have quantified rules. If you want to run everything "Off the Cuff" then Pathfinder 2 is probably not the ideal game for you.
I'm not sure why you posted the last bit. I'm obviously all in on PF2, I just don't really get the way Aid is written. I really need someone to break it down for me. How is Aid a Reaction. Surely it is an Action. Or are you waiting for the other person to use their skill, and then use a Reaction? And how would you have used a different Reaction? Perhaps in Combat, you want to help your friend, but something else "causes" you to use a different Reaction, say the fighter's Attack of Opportunity? But you could choose to forgo that, and still use your Aid? Right?
I don't mind making these rolls for you... in fact RAW suggests that these rolls be made as secret rolls... I just find that most of my players want the agency of rolling checks for themselves. I only need you to tell me which social skill you're using if it's not obvious.Now that everybody is here or at least close and enroute, I thought I'd take a little time to play out some of the less common things used in Pathfinder 2. We are kind of in encounter mode now, but it's social encounter time, and no need to role initiative... unless that's your chosen method of introduction.If that is acceptable to you Supreme Being, I'll just roleplay, and you roll what you find appropriate (if/when deemed necessary). Does that work? :)
{Butting in here...} Understood also, but it does slant the game away from GM control if the player rolls something - then the GM is kinda forced to adjudicate/give the player agency they may not have had...I mean the GM can still nullify the check, but it sets up expectations...
I think in most situations I prefer the GM to roll, if they feel it is appropriate. And in other, less common instances I definitely want to try something and I'll ask the DM if it is appropriate. I get that in PbP this can slow things down...
All random dice rolling games have the risk of either succeeding better than you expected or failing miserably. In fact, I find PF2 is better than most in this instance. For example, in your post above, if the Guards Will DC was 18, then though the player rolled a 20 she still failed the roll, so she only moved the success from a "failure " to a success. So Hostile moves to unfriendly... not best friends forever. Natural 20's and Natural 1's only shift the success level not guarantee a critical. If his Will DC was a 16 then it became a critical, which would move his attitude to indifferent, not friendly or helpful. That's one thing I like about the (4) levels of success.
Also, not everything calls for a roll... only if there are consequences for your roll. You wouldn't roll the second example because the situation isn't likely to cause conflict. In the "gameplay" examples there are consequences to how you approach the situations.
Yep. There's a gauge, and it only moves so far. Not swinging around wildly. That does make sense. Fair enough - I get it.
You don't have to use the "Sense Motive" action if you don't wish to. I see it as kind of reading the room. If you sense someone is hostile, then you know they're getting ready to attack. If they are helpful go right to asking what you want. Mainly used to tell if someone is being honest with you.From a gamist point of view, what is the point of using Sense Motive before your attempt to influence them? Is it to gauge whether or not you need to use Diplomacy, Deception or Intimidation? Does a good Sense Motive score give you a bonus to your next roll (whether Diplomacy, Deception or Intimidation)?
Ultimately, I can see a couple of factors coming in to play in which skill to use - you can't always use your highest bonus skill, because the situation may not demand it, or the risks of failure/possible negative outcomes are too great.
So I would like the Sense Motive to give you some indication of not just how disposed toward being friendly or hostile the target is, but also what you think might or might not work. A kind of Sense Social Etiquette or the like.
In Adayil's case:
Critical Success - The priest probably likes dumplings and will be conducive to cooking small talk (Do not try to Deceive or Intimidate; +2 to Diplomacy; or attempt a lower DC if you use Lore: Religious Dumplings)
Success - The priest appears friendly, if stern. (Do not try to Deceive or Intimidate, +1 to Diplomacy)
Failure - The priest is a fat prelate.(Can use any skill)
Critical Failure - The priest is a fat fool and easily scared. (You should try to Intimidate or Deceive).
Sure, I understand that. And as we saw just now in Adayil's case, she opted not to Sense Motive and just be honest. She's not really trying to gauge the priest, more coming from her own True North.
When used in Encounter mode, you take an action on your turn to set up for the Aid reaction.
Example:
Player 1 needs to Climb a ledge to get to a device to Disable the Device. Player 2 takes an action to place their hands together to give Player 1 a boost and then can roll Aid when Player 2 rolls to Climb.
You actually Aid in someone else's turn, having spent an action in your turn to narratively describe how you will help.
I don't mind making these rolls for you... in fact RAW suggests that these rolls be made as secret rolls... I just find that most of my players want the agency of rolling checks for themselves. I only need you to tell me which social skill you're using if it's not obvious.Now that everybody is here or at least close and enroute, I thought I'd take a little time to play out some of the less common things used in Pathfinder 2. We are kind of in encounter mode now, but it's social encounter time, and no need to role initiative... unless that's your chosen method of introduction.If that is acceptable to you Supreme Being, I'll just roleplay, and you roll what you find appropriate (if/when deemed necessary). Does that work? :)
Works for me! But it can also be left open to DM interpretation and fiat, right? My character says/does something - some might take that as a diplomatic attempt at persuasion, while others might take it as a threat and an intimidation attempt. I trust your judgment ;)
I think these shifts in attitudes mechanics are great guidelines for the DM, and an excellent framework to adjudicate the way encounters pan out. I just don't like it when they become too much player facing, and you start getting into considerations like 'ok, this guy started at hostile, I rolled above X two times, so he should be neutral by now' etc.
^This^.
I'll try to explain the "off turn" activities.
1. Delay: You simply wait until later in the round to take your three actions. This permanently moves your initiative account to this location.
2. Ready: A little more complicated. You must spend 2 actions to ready either a reaction, or another action... usually a strike.
* Example 1: I spend (2) Actions to ready a strike (1) action when that orc comes out from behind the column.
* Example 2: I Strike (1) Action, then wait till he moves (2) Actions, to use my opportunity strike. (Reaction).
3. Aid: You spend an action and explain what you're doing to aid another person on their turn.
* Example 1: Fighter ◆ Strides, ◆ Strikes ◆Prepares to throw sand in the eyes of the enemy to aid Rogue to hit. The aid action doesn't come into play unless the aid is viable.
Possible Outcomes
^ The fighter has another enemy run past him before the rogue acts and spends his reaction for an opportunity attack. He can no longer use the prepared aid as he only has (1) reaction per round, and he used it as the opportunity attack.
^ The Rogue does something else instead of moving to attack, so the reaction to the Aid never happens. The fighter still has a reaction to use before the end of the round... but his aid prep action from earlier in the round isn't used.
^ The Rogue does move in to attack, the fighter rolls to see if his aid was successful, and the results are applied to the rogue's roll.
Hope this clears things up a bit.
I don't mind making these rolls for you... in fact RAW suggests that these rolls be made as secret rolls... I just find that most of my players want the agency of rolling checks for themselves. I only need you to tell me which social skill you're using if it's not obvious.Now that everybody is here or at least close and enroute, I thought I'd take a little time to play out some of the less common things used in Pathfinder 2. We are kind of in encounter mode now, but it's social encounter time, and no need to role initiative... unless that's your chosen method of introduction.If that is acceptable to you Supreme Being, I'll just roleplay, and you roll what you find appropriate (if/when deemed necessary). Does that work? :)Works for me! But it can also be left open to DM interpretation and fiat, right? My character says/does something - some might take that as a diplomatic attempt at persuasion, while others might take it as a threat and an intimidation attempt. I trust your judgment ;)
I think these shifts in attitudes mechanics are great guidelines for the DM, and an excellent framework to adjudicate the way encounters pan out. I just don't like it when they become too much player facing, and you start getting into considerations like 'ok, this guy started at hostile, I rolled above X two times, so he should be neutral by now' etc.
Agree 100%... and for some players we could probably just do away with this mechanic... but this is about the character not the player. Some players are great at strategy, but not so well versed in social skills. There has to be some way to adjuvate your terrible charisma character being bailed out by your excellent role-playing player.
Just a note to explain what I'm doing here. I'm going over some of the less common situations to clarify how I'll be handling these situations when the game begins in Ernest (I know you thought it started in Raven :-))
This week was social encounters, but these are guidelines for when this type of play is needed. It's up to your group to determine how often these come into play.
I plan on introducing my take on "Exploration" activities next week, and perhaps a little "Downtime" activity introduction as well... then we'll really kick things off.
Agree 100%... and for some players we could probably just do away with this mechanic... but this is about the character not the player. Some players are great at strategy, but not so well versed in social skills. There has to be some way to adjuvate your terrible charisma character being bailed out by your excellent role-playing player.I don't mind making these rolls for you... in fact RAW suggests that these rolls be made as secret rolls... I just find that most of my players want the agency of rolling checks for themselves. I only need you to tell me which social skill you're using if it's not obvious.Now that everybody is here or at least close and enroute, I thought I'd take a little time to play out some of the less common things used in Pathfinder 2. We are kind of in encounter mode now, but it's social encounter time, and no need to role initiative... unless that's your chosen method of introduction.If that is acceptable to you Supreme Being, I'll just roleplay, and you roll what you find appropriate (if/when deemed necessary). Does that work? :)Works for me! But it can also be left open to DM interpretation and fiat, right? My character says/does something - some might take that as a diplomatic attempt at persuasion, while others might take it as a threat and an intimidation attempt. I trust your judgment ;)
I think these shifts in attitudes mechanics are great guidelines for the DM, and an excellent framework to adjudicate the way encounters pan out. I just don't like it when they become too much player facing, and you start getting into considerations like 'ok, this guy started at hostile, I rolled above X two times, so he should be neutral by now' etc.
You raise a great point here! I think there should be enough flexibility exactly because of those cases. Maybe I am not in an RP mood so I can just throw a dice roll, or maybe I am not a Charismatic guy or gal, but I want to play a charismatic character. I don’t know the first thing about outdoors, and I want to play a ranger and look for shelter, hunt, fish, etc. There are a ton of examples. So again, good point!
Also one of the reasons I still haven’t given up on Parhfinder in general. I really like the framework of PF1e, and have been learning about 2e.
Of course, finally ready to kick off and life gets in the way. I'll be travelling through next Tuesday but should have time to post every day... just probably won't be very reactive. None-the-less good gaming to all, and I'm really looking forward to this one.
So, I'm going to try to extrapolate a marching order and exploration activities from the discombobulated posts :-)
In Dungeon:
1. Telurion (?)
2. Caks (Search)
3. Adayil (Avoid Notice)
4. Alorea (Search)
5. Lil (Search)
In Wilderness:-
1. Adayil (Scout)
2 Telurion (?)
3. Caks (?)
4. Alorea (Investigate)
5. Lil (Investigate RK: Nature)
While players usually hew close to these default activities, there’s no need for them to memorize the exploration activities and use them exactly. Instead, allow each player to describe what their character is doing. Then, as the GM, you can determine which activity applies. This also means you determine how an activity works if the character’s actions differ from those on the list.
Search in both instances then.
The goal of this is to keep the entire party from checking for traps every move, and constant perception rolls. It's very easy to metagame if you see that the Searching character rolls a 1... then everybody else wants to try perception rolls due to this knowledge... This helps eliminate meta-gaming. "What you don't trust the ranger up front that has this as his favored terain".
But aren't Search rolls secret?
@Supreme Being: Under Familiar in the 4th printing of the PF2 CRB it states:
Your familiar's save modifiers and AC are equal to yours before applying circumstance or status bonuses or penalties. Its Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth modifiers are equal to your level plus your spellcasting ability modifier (Charisma if you don't have one, unless otherwise specified). It can't make Strikes, but it can use trained skill actions for skills for which it adds your spellcasting ability modifier. If it attempts an attack roll or other skill check, it uses your level as its modifier. It doesn't have or use its own ability modifiers and can never benefit from item bonuses.
In the Remastered CRB it is merely:
For Perception, Acrobatics, and Stealth, you can have your familiar use your spellcasting attribute modifier + your level instead of 3 + your level if it’s higher.
My question is, in the Remaster, what can a Familiar do? Can it make skill-checks?
While players usually hew close to these default activities, there’s no need for them to memorize the exploration activities and use them exactly. Instead, allow each player to describe what their character is doing. Then, as the GM, you can determine which activity applies. This also means you determine how an activity works if the character’s actions differ from those on the list.Search in both instances then.
The goal of this is to keep the entire party from checking for traps every move, and constant perception rolls. It's very easy to metagame if you see that the Searching character rolls a 1... then everybody else wants to try perception rolls due to this knowledge... This helps eliminate meta-gaming. "What you don't trust the ranger up front that has this as his favored terain".But aren't Search rolls secret?
In Pathfinder 2 there are three distinct modes of play. Encounter - After your roll initiative, Exploration - When you're adventuring but not in initiative mode, and Downtime - When you are not actively adventuring.
When you are in Exploration mode you pick one activity that you perform at a time, as linked in the previous post on Archives of Nethys. You can freely change this mode, but you can't do two things at once. If you leave "Scout" mode and enter "investigate" mode, you are no longer getting the +1 to initiatives until you re-enter this mode. If you ready a weapon (House rule) or raise a shield, then that is your Exploration mode you are no longer searching or investigating.
Exploration mode works best when the party works as a group to cover all the bases when you are exploring. previous d20 systems were more about the individuals' trying things till someone rolled high enough, but that's not how PF2 works by design. In an ideal situation the party works together. Perhaps the Ranger with high perception works as a scout to give the party +1 to initiatives by keeping an eye out for danger. The best perception party member might perform the "Search" action keeping an eye out for secret doors and hazards, The most knowledgeable / skilled character might be looking for unusual things or creatures to identify. The mage might keep "Detect Magic" constantly active. Having four character's searching would allow four characters to make perception rolls to find traps and/or secret things, but who is doing the other activities? At first my table top groups struggled with this, but now it's second nature and they remind me what they're doing from time to time.
While most of these activities result in 1/2 movement, they are designed to be used in an active adventuring situation. If you're travelling overland in a wagon train, you're not constantly on the alert, and looking for danger. In the current situation the party probably traveled to the foot of the cliffs in normal movement and slowed down to half movement when looking for signs of the youths. PF2 is designed with minimal to zero Random encounters so you need not be constantly alert. Now that might change if you have a loud flash mob in a dangerous area, but normally there is no need to be constantly on the lookout for herds of rabid buffalo's just happening along.
In the example in the gameplay thread Caks finding the disturbed earth is a sign that is probably where the teens went. Adayil is scouting, so in order to investigate the tracks she must switch to investigate mode where she will remain until she changes this again. In Exploration investigate roll she would probably just make another perception roll, but in this case that's already been done by Caks so why would she? I assumed that Telurion was climbing above where the disturbed earth was to see if the cave above this the destination of the youths was. As he has stated he is in "Search" mode when he gets to the cave... which he certainly would with that roll, then I'll roll a perception test for him to see if he sees anything else.
Again, this is to keep from die bombing rolls for information and noticing. Everyone has a job to do. When in encounter mode you can call whatever, you want to do.
Adayil is also stating that she has her Falchion in hand which is the Defend Exploration activiey (House rule). You don't start encounters with a weapon in hand unless you're using the Defend Exploration action. So, she must choose... scouting...investigating... or defending... not all three. On a further note, Familiars and animal companions can have exploration activities as well, so crabby could actually be taking the Scouting action, or using one of its skills as well.
As far as starting with weapons in hand you can alleviate this by taking the quickdraw feat. It might seem frustrating, but with the 3-action economy I don't see the problem. 5e you might can draw the weapon for free but then you get a move and an attack... and maybe a bonus action. it PF2 you get an action to draw the weapon, one to move and one to attack, or if your close enough to attack twice. Not a big deal.
I'll address using familiars tomorrow as I'm beat after my 5-hour drive today. I'll also move things along.
Be patient and flexible and you'll see this really works.
Also note that we are kind of still in "Pre-Adventure" mode learning about how the Exploration activities work. We'll get it together and things will move more smoothly.
I don't think I need any patience or lack thereof to think it's weird that by holding my sword I can't Investigate, or Scout, or Search. I get the abstraction, and that every "box" needs to have certain parameters met (feels like a line of code: Is holding sword? Then: Defending) but that is...well, I don't have a polite word for it. ;)
Sigh.
Ok, fine. Currently, while we are outside the cave, milling around the disturbed earth: Adayil puts her terrible cursed falchion of non-investigation away. Adayil is Scouting. Krutk is on the ground, Avoiding Notice. I guess for the moment someone else can do the sifting for clues, and I'll wait to see if familiars can do anything. I can kinda see an argument for not having familiars have skills otherwise they'll get up to endless ambush-adjacent and scouting hijinks, and then every character will take the Pet feat and we'll have a menagerie of toads, rats, bats, weasels and platypi scouting out the Big Bad Not Very Nice Non-specific Person's manse.
If we go inside the cave, Adayil will switch to Avoid Notice, keeping her dual-cursed falchion of obviously loud and flashy noise and movement in its scabbard of neat and tidy defined Exploration Mode separation. Krutk will have climbed back onto her neck, and will Search. If he can. Not sure how half-speed will affect him if he is on Adayil, but Avoiding Notice also incurs half-speed, so it is likely a non-issue.
As for the familiar skills thing, in the thread I posted the question in, it seems that familiars have lost the "trained skill actions for skills for which it adds your spellcasting ability modifier" ability in the Remaster.
And you can always take the "Skilled Familiar" ability if you want them to have more... Skills. Seems fair enough.
I can kinda see an argument for not having familiars have skills otherwise they'll get up to endless ambush-adjacent and scouting hijinks, and then every character will take the Pet feat and we'll have a menagerie of toads, rats, bats, weasels and platypi scouting out the Big Bad Not Very Nice Non-specific Person's manse.
I laughed :D
Somehow, we're not connecting on the scene. (Picture in discord). The disturbed earth is 30' below the cave opening which is up on the cliffside.
I don't think it's beyond reason that sorting through scree and tumbled boulders to get ready to climb 30' up a cliffside is difficult with a large sword in your hand... but beyond that I don't mind explaining the rules, and even debating whether they are good or not, but I'm not going to take the energy to debate every ruling. This is the way the rules work... and this is the way I run the game. Don't mean this to come off as snarky, but it's very easy to find examples where the rule doesn't make sense to others... but just as easy to make examples where it does make sense. I have no problems with expressing your opinions on rules one does not like, but this game will be exhausting if we just don't accept them.
Thank you for just rolling with it in the game thread. :-)
Telurion is still standing alone at the cave opening 30' above you all, and I'm assuming you want to join him... how?
NOTE: We can go into depth on familiar abilities later. Pets are almost useless, and a poor use of a feat for mechanical abilities in my opinion, but if everybody wants one for flavor, I won't disallow it. The Witches Familiar however is much more capable and powerful. I have a wizard with one in one of my tabletop games. He was a bat with required flight, and echolocation. As a standard familiar he was required to take these as they are inherent to a bat, but without taking feats he really couldn't do anything except scout and give impressions. Needless to say, he retrained out of that feat at the next Down time session.
I added having a weapon ready as "Defending" as a house rule because I couldn't come up with a reason why holding a sword in your hand as you move about was any different from holding a shield... and those using a two-handed weapon basically couldn't use Defend. If you'd all prefer, we can go back to RAW and not allow a weapon to be readied with a Exploration activity. Your call...
@Telurion:
If you'd like to play out a conversation with the good father we can do so here or in your characters channel of the Discord server.