Believe me. I understand what you are saying... just know PF2 is vastly different from other d20 systems. On the surface it looks the same, but in play it's just not. I'm glad you're all giving it a chance... I just ask you to not be judgmental until you see how it works.
Perhaps if all the prep actions are that important this won't be the system for you... but as a DM not having to spend all this time preparing actions, and understanding your actions immensely complicate the system and it only gets worse as you raise in level. As I've mentioned before PF2 is a horizontal advancement game, not a vertical advancement game. You go up in power, but the balanced encounters go up with you so you still get the same challenge at higher levels, you just have more ways to overcome them.
This is a perfectly standard thing in RPGs since I remember playing them - I see nothing wrong with the situation. It could perfectly happen, and has happened I am sure many times through the years :)
And this statement is the problem... You are right this has happened for almost all other systems through the ages... but PF2 changes this. Until you accept this, it's always going to cause issues for you. I"m NOT saying it's wrong. I'm saying it doesn't work in PF2...
There are feats you can take later that let you ambush things, but with no random encounters, and encounters designed to be resolved at full strength (Or at least close). You are right there are almost no ambushes... for either side.
Might as well play 5e if that's what we want to do. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
I don't get the parallel here.
What I'm trying to get across is that I like not having to deal with all the preparatory actions on both sides. When I run 5e or other d20 systems I have to do that, and I like the simplicity of not having to... for anyone.
In actual play my prep time for a 5e session is well over three times as long as it is with PF2... and the encounter balance is still iffy and gets worse at higher levels. If I'm running a pre-made adventure in PF2 I literally spend 1/2 hour at most in game prep, and working full time with wife and children, but time is important to me. I implore you to quit trying to force previous edition planning and actions into PF2 and you'll see the elegance. Go with the flow :-).
For the record I still enjoy "Playing" 5e and other systems, because I can worry about what my character can do, and don't have to make tons of judgment calls, or rules lapses/imbalances... but I hate running them after about 5th level... and to be honest I find myself constantly observing. "Hmm. This is they way I would play this if it was PF2.
I guess I'm getting a little frustrated that we're trying to turn PF2 into a previous d20 type game.
I get that the game is no longer focused around having a laundry list of buff spells to keep track of, but I honestly don't see how simply just holding a weapon if you are aware or expecting danger will completely destroy encounter balance. A single extra action available on the first round won't make or break an entire battle.
YMMV, but that's just my mindset.
If it won't make or break an entire battle, and it's not RAW... then why allow it?
Shrug. I usually make my rulings in favor of the players, RAW or not. Chalk it up to different playstyles and leave it at that.
I look forward to our first battle! :)
I've got you. I do too... but this isn't in favor of the players, as the enemies would have the same ability to have a weapon ready as well...
It's like double entry accounting... :-)
Just as an example to get combat rolling...
Telurion is first He has many options, but here are a couple
◆ Draw Sword
◆ Advance 30'
F Drop torch
◆ Strike
-or-
◆ Recall Knowledge (Secret Check)
◆ Draw Dagger
◆ Raise Shield or take cover
-or-
◆ Move 20'
F Drop Torch
◆ Draw Dagger
◆ Throw Dagger
-or-
◆ Draw Sword
F Drop Torch
◆◆ Hold action to strike when they close on him.
These are just a few options that are available. Remember the bad guys have to draw their weapons and move as well.
Just some food for thought.
I've previously weighed in on this topic and will wait to see how it feels in play before saying more about it. I would also like to say that I agree that Lill is good at a lot of things and not great at anything, yet, skill-wise. That comes from her key ability score not having any skills :)
I would, however, like to point out that Quick Draw is useful even with a weapon in hand as it allows you to draw and Strike with one action, so in your third example, with Quickdraw, Telurion could do something like:
Move 20'
Draw and Throw Dagger.
Raise Shield.
Trying out making maps in Arkenforge and exporting.
The tokens aren't movable...except by me, so you can tell me where you're going and I'll move the tokens till I come up with a better system.
I've previously weighed in on this topic and will wait to see how it feels in play before saying more about it. I would also like to say that I agree that Lill is good at a lot of things and not great at anything, yet, skill-wise. That comes from her key ability score not having any skills :)
I would, however, like to point out that Quick Draw is useful even with a weapon in hand as it allows you to draw and Strike with one action, so in your third example, with Quickdraw, Telurion could do something like:
Move 20'
Draw and Throw Dagger.
Raise Shield.
Ah! But if he already had his dagger out as most of your are wishing then he wouldn't need quick draw to do so.
Move 20'
Throw Dagger (Already drawn)
Raise shield
So the feat accomplishes little to nothing.
If it won't make or break an entire battle, and it's not RAW... then why allow it?
I would argue for the greatest reason of all: it makes *narrative* sense. I find the more simulationist the better, where possible.
The abstract “must all start at point 0 - no weapons out” removes from immersion, and makes it difficult to: get in character, realise the world, interact as the character might, get a sense of tempo and flow of the push and pull of combat. Which is what I like about PF2 - having actions to do things. It kinda feels like playing cutscenes of first-person Exploration and then whoompsh its a game of card-style casual RPG with everyone lined up on one side and the bad guys on the other. We’re all fully healed, with every spell at our disposal, every time. Extra marks if our little standees are vaguely animated to bounce a little with the tempo of the music.
“Two sides face each other. The battle starts. Who can whip out their sword the quickest?” It feels like watching a boardgame of turns. ”Then this bad guy takes out his sword and runs at you and strikes. Then this bad gal takes out *her* sword and runs at you and strikes. Now this guy, he’s different - he has a glaive. He takes out his glaive, runs at you, and Strikes from 5 feet away.”
It can’t be that after PF1, the game is less immersive? I just don’t think the action economy (or anything about the ruleset) makes it *that* much of different beast. Sure healing is different in scope and application. Spells are different with degrees of success. But mostly its the same thing.
I guess Paizo makes every encounter cutscene’d to start with foes doing certain things/ready a certain way no matter how you come at them?
And I’m pretty sure (at least Albion and I) are here for at least the option of being ambushed by ambushers who ambush with their weapons out. And we want to be able to do the same. Is it true that there is never surprise? Never an ambush?
@Scranford - thanks for the run down on who has the greatest acumen for what skill/action type. Makes a lot of sense.
@ Lillanith - also, yes, Adayil should probably get a Light spell/cantrip. After a rest. So far, *she* hasn’t needed it, but she will recognise that others do.
This does a great job of explaining surprise.
I like the map, but maybe you could use our pictures as the tokens for us to make it easier to see who is who. How easy is Arkenforge to use? As you know, I'm still hunting for a mapping solution for my game.
Arkenforge is great for a tabletop game, but not really designed to share in a virtual tabletop. I’ll be doing some research on Owlbear rodeo and let you know how that goes. It’s showing some promise. Custom tokens are easy and it but a little more challenging in Arkenforge.
Telurion… you’re up!
It says
^Adayil
^Baddies
^Telurion
^Alorea
^Lillanith
^Caks
So now the baddies are up, or did I misunderstand?
Nope. That was my bad. I thought I posted somewhere that the baddies had delayed. You're up.
I'll update the map when I get a chance and hope to play around with Owlbear Rodeo this weekend and might have a solution for mapping that allows you to move your own tokens. At this time until I get a chance to update the map #3 has greater cover behind the rocks on the right, and 1 and 2 have hustled towards the SE corner of the room.
Keep your fingers crossed.
@Scranford - did Google slides end up being too complicated? I haven't explored a lot of the importing of maps (getting scale/size right), but the rest seemed fairly usable...
Or "happy" to use Roll20 - happy in that I use it in another game, but it is not....phone/tablet friendly.
As got Google slides I can see it on my phone, but can't interact with it. Tablet works fine/okay, but computer is best.
You are right on the familiar. I was thinking about the Construct Eidolon...
Your construct eidolon has a link directly to your life force, which renders it a living creature and therefore susceptible to many ailments that bother only the living, though it does possess some resistances to these effects. It doesn't have a construct's normal immunities, but does gain a +2 circumstance bonus to saving throws against death effects, disease, necromancy, and poison effects, as well as effects causing the fatigued or sickened conditions.
I looked at using Google slides... and it's not out of the question, but using layers and things seems like a lot of work to me. I'm thinking Owlbear Rodeo would work best. I just give you the link and you can join on your phone, tablet, or computer, move your tokens as I allow, and view the maps. It's another program... but no worse than Roll 20, and in fact looks easier to use from the Youtube videos I've watched so far.
Note to all...
Unless tomorrow goes crazy at work I should have time to get the map updated to what the current situation is. I hope to resolve the map access issues this weekend.
All good @scranford. I appreciate all your efforts.
I also appreciate the work. Maps are a bit of a PITA in PbP.
Round 2 Initiative order.
^ Adayil
^ Lil
^ Telurion
^ Baddies
^ Alorea
^ Caks
Once Caks resolves the open issues with his actions we'll move on. Won't be able to post much this weekend, or most weekends for that matter, but I will spend considerable time trying to get a better mapping solution.
If I go with Owlbear rodeo then its browser hosted so I can send you a link to the maps, and you can use any device to move your tokens. Let me know if you're not comfortable with this type of solution. If you'd like to find online an image that Truley represents your character, you can send me a PNG file (Probably on the discord server), and I'll do my best to make a token for you.
Sounds good. Thanks for the heads up.
Just trying things out
Link works, but then ask for a name and to ask to be invited. Do we have to make an account?
I don’t think so. I’ll see if I can sign on as GM and let you in. I was just missing around checking things out really not ready to use it yet.
I’m sent as in as GM now. Do you want to try to join again and I’ll see if I can admit you
I think you need to have an account - each time I visit it asks for my name, and has a default generic name already filled in the field. My “name” would have to be my account name, one would assume, otherwise how do you as a GM, distinguish who anyone is? As a Player, You can’t just make up a name everytime…otherwise you’d have to ask to join everytime, OR use the same name that isn’t…linked to any security or account. There is also a “Sign in” button…
If you don’t have a paid account, you can’t change any of the names. I have a paid account so I can put a token on for you and put your name on it. If you just hit the sign on button, it should take you right to the map I’ve got a couple of tokens on it so you can see if you can move them.
I’m also on my iPad so it’s more difficult to work at the moment. But I think you can just sign in with that link. It just won’t have your name but I know who it is.
I’ve been admitting you to the room. You see anything.
You were in there, and I saw you adjusting the size on one of the tokens
Wasn’t me
I’ll try now.
I see you in the Room / Scene
Ok, I am apparently in. I haven’t yet tried to move anything at all. That wasn’t me. Let’s take further discussion to Discord…
You might be able to make a map in Owlbear and export it so something like Slides. That's something I need to play with myself for my game.
Owl bear is like a super simple Roll 20. You can actually use it to view maps, fog of war and manipulate tokens. Click the link, and ping me on discord and Ill admit you to play around on its. Not need to sign up, create. An account, sign in PR anything.
Practice Map
Try again
Having difficulty keeping the changes to the map. I'll YouTube solutions. :-)
So to verify Caks actions...
^ Free 10' from Lil Stride
◆ Stride (25' North along West Wall)
◆ Interact (Draw Sling)
◆ Interact (Load Sling)
yes please...that is correct
If you guys are trying to access the Owlbear Rodeo link you have to let me know so I can admit you. The request doesn’t come in your name
Waiting with bated breath - to me it looks like a clear case of Adayil taking between 3 and 7 attacks! Stay tuned folks! She can't provide a flank if she's dead!
I'm sure everything will be fine :D
Due to the fact that it sends me notifications I would suggest using Discord when requesting access to the game room.
I believe once you guys follow the link for the game map you will be able to move your token etc. when you hit the link it will assign you a "Stage Name" to enter by, then I must approve the entry, so when you enter post the stage name in discord. I'll get a notification and can admit you into the room if I'm where I can access Owlbear Rodeo. I am creating the maps in Inkarnate, then importing them into OBR as a VTT to allow you to access the environment.