There is a difference between carrying a shield and having one up and ready to block an attack.
When Bob the Champion is walking down a hall in the Tomb of the Scary Leshy, his shield is on his arm. However, he gets no mechanical benefit from that. If Bob uses the Defend action, then he moves slower, but his shield is up and ready to block, and mechanically he gets the benefits of Raise Shield prior to his first action in a fight. The slower movement shows that it is more strenuous to have the shield up and ready at all times.
However, not using the Defend action going, does not penalize Bob in any way.
By not allowing a weapon to be out, then every Martial character - except an unarmed monk or an Ancestry with a natural unarmed attack, is penalized as in every fight their first action has to be 'Ready Weapon'. This significantly, IMO hinders their flexibility of action usage in round 1. Given that, in the Remaster, they adjusted things so that you could swap a weapon to another one, while putting the first away instead of dropping it, as one action, the House Rule seems harsh.
It also doesn't make narrative sense that you are in a hostile area and not ready to fight.
All that said, I'm more than willing to see how it actually works in play, as my thoughts could be quite wrong, and testing it could be interesting.
As far as people using Two-Handed Weapons not able to use Defend, of course not. Defend specifically allows you to get the bonus of Raise Shield, and you can't Raise Sheild when using a two-handed weapon.
@Scranford: I’m still having trouble working out the scene.
There is a cliff with a bunch of holes/caves.
At the foot of the cliff, Caks found some fresh, dislodged earth.
5’ up, Lillanith found a handprint and some torn cloth.
When you say “some fresh dislodged earth near a cave opening just to the right of two other openings” do you mean 30’ below the cave opening as you later suggested? That initial description is why I was working on the dislodged earth being near a hole on the same level/height. The Discord picture has holes at various heights, so I thought this was a ground level hole. ;)
So, it is possible that the dislodged earth on the ground could have been made by a group of youths preparing to climb the 30’ to a cave hole, and on the way, one of them left a handprint and one possibly tore their clothing on the rock spur?
@Scranford: be as snarky as you wish! I’m old enough to cope! It’s your game, run it how you want. I’m sure eventually I’ll have reached the end of my queries and we’ll be running with it. Obviously our swords will be sheathed, otherwise it will be at half speed. ;)
So, it is possible that the dislodged earth on the ground could have been made by a group of youths preparing to climb the 30’ to a cave hole, and on the way, one of them left a handprint and one possibly tore their clothing on the rock spur?
That is the way I am seeing it.
The cave in question is 30 ft up the disturb earth is where they began to climb. The cloth and overturned Rock are in the cave 30 feet up Ill try to be more descriptive
The cave in question is 30 ft up the disturb earth is where they began to climb. The cloth and overturned Rock are in the cave 30 feet up Ill try to be more descriptive
All good. I find I am pretty literal minded, and often overthink things that are actually quite simple. And am also often wrong. And….
Caks... How did you switch to Darkvision?
So Adayil and Caks are leading the way?
Adavil is in Avoid Notice, and Caks is in Search?
Telurion is 3rd in line with a torch?
Alorea and Lil are following behind the others?
I'm going to go with this and move things forward tomorrow unless I hear otherwise.
It's going to be a requirement in my games to use Exploration mode if you're not in encounter mode... so tell me what you're doing...
I could have sworn I had dark vision...sorry about that...it says low-light, so I suppose that is what she has apologies!!
Caks... How did you switch to Darkvision?
So Adayil and Caks are leading the way?
Adavil is in Avoid Notice, and Caks is in Search?
Telurion is 3rd in line with a torch?
Alorea and Lil are following behind the others?
I'm going to go with this and move things forward tomorrow unless I hear otherwise.
It's going to be a requirement in my games to use Exploration mode if you're not in encounter mode... so tell me what you're doing...
Sorry for posting without reading Discussion! I thought Telurion was leading the way with a torch…I need to read up on various interactions between visions and torches - in the old skool ADnD torches pretty much fouled ‘visions, so it was either all the demihumans using infravision or ultravision, unless there was a human, and then everyone just switched to torchlight…
Darkvision is not thermal vision like in AD&D or other older D&D. It's black-and-white vision that lets you see in the dark. Low Light vision lets you see in dim light as if it were bright light, so it negates the Concealed condition that dim light would give.
Darkvision can - GM dependent - have contrast issues. You might not see a black pit on a black floor, and it can be very hard reading.
As far as light itself, the cantrip is a much better option than a torch, since a torch has to be carried, and not only can light be put on an object, but it also - since the Remaster - acts as Dancing Lights as well, so it can be moved like an orb.
Torches and other light do not mess up vision, either, like AD&D. Basically, when you have normal light from any source, you have no penalties. When you have lesser light things in it are Concealed in dim light, or Hidden in Darkness.
Concealed means if you target it, or it targets you, after declaring the action, they roll a DC5 Flat Check which is a D20 with nothing added, and if they roll 1 to 4, they just miss and the action(s) is(are) lost.
When something is Hidden, it works the same way, except the Flat Check is DC10, meaning on a 1 to 9, they just miss. Also, when something is Hidden it can Hide.
PF2E is not a D&D Variant. It is a very different game that uses some of the same terms and happens to use the same dice. It does not do things the same way at all, which was also tricky for me when I was learning it.
Sorry for posting without reading Discussion! I thought Telurion was leading the way with a torch…I need to read up on various interactions between visions and torches - in the old skool ADnD torches pretty much fouled ‘visions, so it was either all the demihumans using infravision or ultravision, unless there was a human, and then everyone just switched to torchlight…
I have no preference one way or another - from my end, I thought Caks or Âdayil were scouting ahead.
No problems. We have to get used to playing together, the way I run my games, and a new rules system for many all at once. That's why I've been running things like Social interaction, and exploration mode beforen we jump full fledged into the campaign.
I've got listed in the campaign Information tab the standard marching order, and exploration activities... so I'm going to go with that unless you post that you're doing something different. I really feel like this will speed things up in PbP as we're not constantly waiting for checks to be made for everything. I'll just make my secret checks and move on.
I would expect we might change things up so that everyone's not doing the same thing as the game progresses... but we'll see. I'll mention exploration activites that might have worked better while we're in the prologue.
After mulling it over some, I think I would rather have a scout - I feel too many games/systems/groups simply ignore the existence and advantages of having/using a scout.
PF2e actually uses a 'mechanic' to translate scouting into an advantage - it would not be my preferred option, but at least it acknowledges the advantage of using a scout (while it also makes perfect sense immersion wise).
So why not use it?
"I would not suggest that." Lil says. "Even if you see very well in the dark, it won't help you see loose stones or a pit, and if there is trouble, it might be best for us all to be together. Also, if the children see light, they might call out, which would help us find them. If you really want to go into the cave alone, then do so, but I think it would be more prudent for us all to stay together.
This confuses me a bit - there is a 'Scout' Exploration activity, however the Scout won't be able to see loose stones or a pit, if it is dark? Even if they have Darkvision? Doesn't this basically invalidate scouting underground?
I use darkvision as you can see in the dark up to your distance... Just black and white. Scouting is keeping an eye out for foes. Search islooking for Hazzard, traps and secret doors. Investigate might tell you something looks weird about the cave floor ahead. (Lore or Nature)
So Scouting does not mean/need you to go ahead of the group? You can go together with the group, holding a light source, and still be scouting?
Is there an action for stealthily scouting ahead of the group to gather intel on enemies before the group arrives? Perhaps spot an ambush ahead of time, or ascertain what passage may be safe and so forth? I was perhaps (mistakenly) assuming that was the 'Scouting' activity.
void notice is the way to stealth. You can only perform one action in this mode. TEAMWORK!
Remember no surprise in PF2.. So prep actions ate very limited on both sides.
Might help to explain a little of the deisgn goals behind the way PF2 approaches exploration.
In previous d20 games we had the following.
I move up 10' and see what's around the corner. Okay! Make a stealth check, then make a perception check...Nothing... then move 10' more and make a stealth check, then make a perception check. You see something around standing in the hallway... make a Arcane Check. Okay now creature 1 makes a perception check vs. your stealth check. Nope he's surprised... make your surprise attack then we'll roll initiative. This over and over really slowed the game down... particularly in PbP without really accomplishing anything. And this is just for one player. If the whole party did the same thing, we'd end up with 30 dice rolls to get to the encounter. The goal is to remove all these redundant checks by multiple people.
In Pathfinder 2e as in many instances it encourages teamwork to be most successful... not a group of hero's but a heroic group. Same situation.
Player 1 is scouting, Player two is searching, player 3 is defending, Player 4 is investigating, and player 5 is avoiding notice. If there is something there, I make a check or ask you to. No empty rolling if there's nothing there. Around the corner Player 1 is scouting so the entire party gets a +1 to their initiative. Player two notices that there is a suspicious area of the floor in front of the creature probably a trap, and a secret door behind him, Player three has his sheild raised so has three actions available after initiative is rolled, Player 4 gets a RK Arcana check to recognize what the creature is (Secret Roll), and player 5 rolls Stealth as his initiative instead of perception, so might get a sneak attack if a rogue, or start the encounter concealed.
The whole encounter is now set and we roll for initiative.
I perfectly understand the explanation Supreme Being, I just don't understand why this is a PF2 thing? There is nothing there preventing you from playing the exact same way with PF1e. People can say whatever they are doing, and the DM rolls if he thinks it is necessary. That is how I do it. I don't play the way you described at all, with players dumping rolls on me (you know that, you are part of the game I am running), but I will accept many do.
But still if I want to say - my thief stealthily scouts ahead to check the way while the group waits for my report, you are telling me this is not possible in PF2e? My old brain has a very hard time understanding that, regardless of how many times you might say the word 'Teamwork' :)
I don't feel like Teamwork is something you can 'force upon' the players by limiting the actions they can take in such an artificial way (really, why can't someone avoid notice and scout at the same time?).
In any case, point is taken about how exploration activities work in PF2e - I am here to give it a try.
If the group agrees, Telurion leads the way, with a torch in hand.
So my question now is - can I have a torch in hand and still use the Search exploration activity? Because if I had a sword or Shield I would not be able to, correct? Let me know.
torch is allowed while searching.
Just no sneaking around with a torch in one hand, sword in the other, shield in the other, searching for things that you immediately identify. :-).
Sometimes we just have to accept things RAW and see how it works. The tight math on Pathfinder 2e is what makes it great, so sometimes we have to suspend disbelief to make it work.
Random encounters and surprise rounds fall outside the tight math, so they are extremely rare in PF2. It's designed so that every encounter, while dangerous is supposed to be approached with mostly full HP, and everyone starting at the same time. It is challenging to design balanced encounters if you don't know what the party's current status is, so except for spell slots it assumes you heal up before moving on. And except in certain cases there is no "running clock" in the game, so unless you were super loud, or in a known hazardous situation, it's okay to take some time off to rest and heal up.
@Lillanith - I see nothing to indicate that darkvision causes you to lose detail, and while I can see an argument for losing contrast, RAW darkvision allows you to see "perfectly well in areas of darkness and dim light." (Player Core, p.433.) A GM that tries to penalise you for Searching or Investigating generally is being fairly pernicious - though obviously reading brings up an interesting point:
Can an Orc read a book, black words written on a white page in complete darkness? I can see very valid arguments both ways: 1) "No, not at all, how could they?" and 2) "Yes, black and white can totally be read in black and white - it's a black and white case!"
Clearly darkvision bends optics... and light... and... physics. It probably isn't easy to argue...scientifically given our real world physics.
PF2E is not a D&D Variant. It is a very different game that uses some of the same terms and happens to use the same dice. It does not do things the same way at all, which was also tricky for me when I was learning it.
I'm well aware of the historiography of the "oldest roleplaying game in the currently known universe". ;)
I don't see them being very different at the base level. Cultural changes and dice-rolling conventions altered mostly.
I'm clearly less aware of how "vision" has evolved exactly over edition changes, regardless of publisher, and am also probably speaking o table variation in the "old days" for interactions between torches and infra/ultravision. Having just checked DND 3.75 ("Pathfinder 1") darkvision looks to be fairly similar to "Pathfinder 2."
And as you point out torches merely replace dark/low-light vision, which don't have the special qualities both infravision and ultravision had.
Feel free to ignore my ramblings - don't want to start arguments at all, but this is a game where should be able to express our opinions.
@Supreme Being - I think the design intent of breaking up Search and Scout is to let different players character's attempt different things, both to a)"let everyone shine" and b) allow different interactions with Initiative to play to different skill capacities/bonuses. Some of that will clearly be invalidated if the group is not in one place - the option of sending a lone stealthy scout forward Searching and Investigating and not "alert the foes" is fairly common trope, and if it can't be supported by the game's engine then there is a considerable shortfall/lack.
For example: I'm well within my imagination if I say - "Everyone stay back, I'll send Krutk in to see what's what." After all, he has 40' speed, low-light vision, +5 stealth and if he is spotted, well, he looks like a weird crab thing, not a bunch of rescuing adventurers, and if he happens to die I can replace him with my next daily preparation. It completely invalidates/circumvents the "party Searching/Investigating" process and likely isn't a part of the "design intent". Happily, I'm not a meta gamer, and Adayil probably isn't keen on sending Krutk on suicide missions - besides, he can't talk and probably can't draw detailed maps either.
On the subject of abstractions: quite apart from "suspension of disbelief" it beggars that belief that while being cautious or trying to not be killed you don't have your weapon or shield out . No one wanders the corridors around the dungeon with their sword sheathed. What is their other hand doing, the one not holding the torch aloft - feeling the wall for imperceptible tremors? Sure, in a room, when the group is looking at an idol or about to climb a rope ladder, but generally, you are readied. Weapons out.
And, I would counter-argue, that the math is so tight, or in my estimation "elegant", that it can be tweaked. But that is a conversation for when I am the GM! ;)
One last thing.
"Scout".
This is a complete misnomer. It isn't stealthy, and gives you absolutely no intel, until about 3 milliseconds before you are attacked when you yell "We are being attacked!/Bad guys!".
It should be renamed. "Ready" or "Readied"....umm.... "At the Ready" or "Alert" or "On Alert" or "Twitchy" or "Toey" or similar.
And…so…if no-one else is taking Scout, Adayil will.
I also think Caks should look at taking Avoid Notice instead of Search for two reasons:
1: Four people currently have Search listed as their in-dungeon exploration activity.
2: To get Surprise Attack, a Rogue needs to use Stealth for Initiative, which Avoid Notice provides.
It is weird to me, that due to the breakup of these activities, the traditional rogue is no longer the scout, because they are likely not Scouting. Scranford - do you see this happening in your other games?
After a second look at Telurion, I realized he already had gear :)
So now I am just looking for the best way to transfer it from Pathbuilder into my alias.
And done!
Nothing prevents a party member at all from going ahead of the group and coming back to the group to report if that is what a group wants to do.
The Rogue can Scout ahead, or anyone else can. In fact, if a Rogue wants to scout ahead, they can use Avoid Notice to be Stealthy. It's just at /low level/ you cannot, at the same time, be in Stealth /and/ Searching for Hazards /and/ looking for hidden people /and/ Searching for Secret doors.
The Exploration activities are very broad.
Scout means that you are constantly ducking ahead and slipping back looking for enemies.
Search means you are moving slowly, probing for traps and looking for hidden doors, etc.
At higher levels, there are feats that let you combine activities like Avoid Notice while Searching.
They're not even super major a lot of the time. The group I run for barely spends time picking them, and it's not an impact. Scranton may want to put more emphasis on them, and that's fine, but in general, they are very broad, what are you focused on between encounter, type actions.
@Lillanith. Thanks for taking the time to read and reply. I get that this can be exhausting, but I'm at least enjoying the back and forth. Also, apologies for any snark related to well...anything. I get a bit snarky just like anybody else.
The group I run for barely spends time picking them, and it's not an impact. Scranton may want to put more emphasis on them, and that's fine, but in general, they are very broad, what are you focused on between encounter, type actions.
Yep, I get that. Some games I'm in they aren't adhered to at all.
I think I'm also having a disconnect as to exactly *when* Exploration slips into Encounter Mode - especially right now with regard to Rogues and their iconic Surprise Attack class feature.
It pretty much pigeonholes the Rogue into Avoid Notice to get it (as Surprise Attack keys off either Stealth or Deception) But how does a Rogue, who *was* Searching, all of a sudden shift into Avoid Notice right before combat? Or do they completely miss the option for Surprise Attack if they were Scouting or Searching, and thereafter use Feints, Flanks or Hide for Sneak Attacks?
I think Surprise Attack should probably apply to any Rogue, who, when Initiative begins, was using either Search or Scout or Avoid Notice in Exploration Mode. Narratively, that just makes sense to me, but I get it. It is an abstraction.
It's similar with how I feel the Exploration options actually *don't* feel broad:
If you were Searching ("Seek meticulously for hidden doors, concealed hazards, and so on") when you came across enemies, why don't you get to prepare anything related to or at least even get a bonus vs alive "hazards" you found known as "foes"?
If you were Scouting, wouldn't you then either alert your allies, thus affording them the usual +1 to initiative, and/or automatically be Hidden/use Stealth? You don't Scout by waving your arms in the air yelling "Here I am". It is a quiet slow careful activity.
To say nothing of the fact that they should both probably afford some RK option seeing as you are looking for things, and foes definitely are... things.
I think I'm arguing that if they are so broad, they need to be treated as such. First roll the Initiative options into broader categories. Ensure that if you are Searching, that you can opt to use Stealth for Initiative, or start Hidden. Same for Scouting, but also add the option to add the bonus to Initiative, or to just your own or few members of the group's Initiative depending on their location. An option for Recall Knowledge perhaps.
Let there be a range of options to roll for Initiative across a few broad modes. I was under the impression that the players narrate what their characters are doing, and then the GM decides what they roll for Initiative. If you are hanging from a chandelier, maybe it is Acrobatics for Initiative. If you are approaching a Living Grimoire, maybe it is Lore: Books'n'Tomes for Initiative. All within reason of course.
I guess I just can't accept that you wouldn't be quiet and stealthy while looking for foes and trying not to set off traps. Breaking them up into discrete bonuses or Initiative-conversant options is narratively destructive. It turns the game into an abstraction of mutually exclusive activities, in between combats. In the name of affording each player something to do. Some parties will take full advantage of this. Some won't. But ultimately it is narrtively unsatisfying to me because it *doesn't make sense*. Even as an abstraction.
And all of this quite falls apart in terms of "Teamwork" if 4 people are Searching and no-one is Scouting. No party would actually do that.
I feel that Albion is trying to narrate what he is doing and being funneled by the ruleset into extremely codified and tight Exploration Activities that don't always match the narration ["I'm carrying my sword and my torch scouting ahead for enemies" (Scout) should not exclude being able to notice non-living things (Perception or Search), nor should looking for traps (Search) void you from noticing weird stuff or being stealthy (Investigate or Avoiding Notice)]; to essentially allow Telurion to exist verisimilitudinously as his player might narrate, which I have sympathy for.
I'm also finding that the Initiative coding is muddy for me at the changeover between Exploration and Encounter Mode. Though that hasn't happened yet!
Happily no-one else seems to mind, so I'lll just get on with playing the game. Thanks for reading though! ;)
Back from my trip now. I’ll catch up tomorrow.
I don't see your comments as snarky at all. They are good questions, and Scranton may have specific ways to rule on them as all GMs do.
One thing that may be throwing you is Hazard. Anything that starts with a capital letter in 2E refers to something specific.
For instance, a Strike is an attack with a melee weapon, ranged weapon, or unarmed attack. When Lill eventually tosses out an elemental bolt, she is making an attack, but she is not making a Strike.
Hazard is a term that refers to two things: a trap, which may be mechanical (like a pit) or something natural (like a rockslide); or a Haunt (which is supernatural and so varied it is hard to give a simple example).
So, when you are Searching in Exploration mode, most of your focus is on looking for hints that there might be one of those - a trip wire, a strange rune, a feeling on the back of your neck that might clue you into a ghost.
The Scout Exploration Activity, to me, is not go far ahead of the party and look for monsters. It's more situational awareness, keeping an eye out in every direction, which is why it gives a +1 to initiative to a group when using it, as you give that extra half-second warning.
There are very legit reasons to have no one using Scout and everyone using Search - a Tomb of Horrors style adventure for instance.
If you want to recon ahead of a party, that's not an Exploration activity, it's more, IMO, of an Encounter activity, with the GM and that player resolving everything. But, again, Scranton may see it differently.
Also note that it is certainly possible to not have an Exploration activity and be just fine. A long overland journey, for instance, makes you have to decide 'Do I want to double the length of the journey just to have a minor benefit if I happen to have an encounter?'
As for initiative, it is almost always Perception, but, yes, it can be set up narratively. It's not something I've seen often when GMing, but it is absolutely possible.
I also want to say, again, what I'm saying is all IMO, how I read and GM things. Scranton may see things differently, and it's his game, so take everything with a grain of salt :)
Also, Rogues can get Sneak Attack without Stealth. Feint, flanking, and other conditions that make someone Off Guard allow sneak attack. They can even take cover and Hide in combat to set it up that way.
Just because a rogue is not in Avoid Notice doesn't mean they lose Sneak Attack, they have a lot of ways to get it.
Wow...lots of information here...thanks to everyone for the conversation. Being new to the 2nd edition I am still in the learning stage of playing and all this information and thoughts is great. I see that the various modes can look to "lock" your character into some actions and seem to ignore others. I had not thought of that before, so thank you for opening my eyes to it. I mostly play the 'rule of cool' and let some of the 'harder' rules slide, but it is very eye-opening to hear what others think and it makes me re-evaluate how I am personally using the rules.
Also, Rogues can get Sneak Attack without Stealth. Feint, flanking, and other conditions that make someone Off Guard allow sneak attack. They can even take cover and Hide in combat to set it up that way.
Just because a rogue is not in Avoid Notice doesn't mean they lose Sneak Attack, they have a lot of ways to get it.
I’m specifically talking about Surprise Attack, which is distinct from Sneak Attack. It took a little for me to get used to it as I never played a Rogue in PF1 so the whole concept was fairly new.
Yep, I listed ways to get Sneak Attack, but Surprise Attack is only triggered on Initiative, and only with Stealth (thus my point about the onset of Combat and the trouble with locking the Rogue into Avoid Notice) or Deception (see my questions as to just how this happens - are you already Hidden/Hiding somehow, is it an ambush situation). And, also, the interactions between the end of Exploration Mode and the onset of Encounter Mode.
So it’s not that they lose Sneak Attack in Avoid Notice mode, but that they can’t get Surprise Attack unless they are in Avoid Notice Mode (for Using Stealth in Initiative) or Hiding somehow…or whatever gives you Deception for Initiative.
Wow...lots of information here...thanks to everyone for the conversation. Being new to the 2nd edition I am still in the learning stage of playing and all this information and thoughts is great. I see that the various modes can look to "lock" your character into some actions and seem to ignore others. I had not thought of that before, so thank you for opening my eyes to it. I mostly play the 'rule of cool' and let some of the 'harder' rules slide, but it is very eye-opening to hear what others think and it makes me re-evaluate how I am personally using the rules.
Well to be fair, I’m looking at this fairly deeply and likely overthinking everything, so don’t get too hung up on anything I’m saying about being “locked in”.
But it is important for you as a Rogue to choose the Racket that fits your preferred Rogue-style in combat.
It’s also good to get to know the interactions of flanking (which causes the opponent to be “Off-guard” - the old “flat-footed”. ) Essentially -2 to AC. And in PF2, every bonus is pretty useful, moreso than in PF1.
I really like the Ruffian racket as they can use non-finesse melee weapons with Sneak Attack, up to a d8. Great for my Lizardfolk (“iruxi”) Hunter/woodland trapper cum bounty hunter Rogue. Used a trident for sneak attack. Or he will. If we ever have a combat.
Scoundrels are good at Feinting to keep foes flat-footed/Off-guard, even vs their friends attacks on a Critical Success. Was good for my lithe rapier Twin Feint (which isn’t a Feint but still) using Elven Rogue. I didn’t use Feint much, mostly took advantage of Flanking or Twin Feint (makes two attacks, and the second one is vs Off-guard even if not Flanking). I already established in that game here on the boards the interactions between Feint and Twin Feint. Gah.
The Thief racket lets you add Dex to damage with Finesse weapons...
The Mastermind can use Recall Knowledge to make the creature Off-guard to their strikes, even up to a minute on a Critical Success.
And…so…if no-one else is taking Scout, Adayil will.
I also think Caks should look at taking Avoid Notice instead of Search for two reasons:
1: Four people currently have Search listed as their in-dungeon exploration activity.
2: To get Surprise Attack, a Rogue needs to use Stealth for Initiative, which Avoid Notice provides.
It is weird to me, that due to the breakup of these activities, the traditional rogue is no longer the scout, because they are likely not Scouting. Scranford - do you see this happening in your other games?
After some initial hesitation to actually use the Exploration activities everyone has adjusted well to it, and it never comes up in actual play. Everyone knows their role, changes it when necessary and have learned to work well together.
Nothing prevents a party member at all from going ahead of the group and coming back to the group to report if that is what a group wants to do.
The Rogue can Scout ahead, or anyone else can. In fact, if a Rogue wants to scout ahead, they can use Avoid Notice to be Stealthy. It's just at /low level/ you cannot, at the same time, be in Stealth /and/ Searching for Hazards /and/ looking for hidden people /and/ Searching for Secret doors.
The Exploration activities are very broad.
Scout means that you are constantly ducking ahead and slipping back looking for enemies.
Search means you are moving slowly, probing for traps and looking for hidden doors, etc.
At higher levels, there are feats that let you combine activities like Avoid Notice while Searching.
They're not even super major a lot of the time. The group I run for barely spends time picking them, and it's not an impact. Scranton may want to put more emphasis on them, and that's fine, but in general, they are very broad, what are you focused on between encounter, type actions.
Thanks for all the insightful input, Lil. Really helps to get another perspective on the rule interpretations. BTW... It's not a big deal but it's scranford... not scranton. That's a town in PA...
@Lillanith. Thanks for taking the time to read and reply. I get that this can be exhausting, but I'm at least enjoying the back and forth. Also, apologies for any snark related to well...anything. I get a bit snarky just like anybody else.
The group I run for barely spends time picking them, and it's not an impact. Scranton may want to put more emphasis on them, and that's fine, but in general, they are very broad, what are you focused on between encounter, type actions.Yep, I get that. Some games I'm in they aren't adhered to at all.
I think I'm also having a disconnect as to exactly *when* Exploration slips into Encounter Mode - especially right now with regard to Rogues and their iconic Surprise Attack class feature.
It pretty much pigeonholes the Rogue into Avoid Notice to get it (as Surprise Attack keys off either Stealth or Deception) But how does a Rogue, who *was* Searching, all of a sudden shift into Avoid Notice right before combat? Or do they completely miss the option for Surprise Attack if they were Scouting or Searching, and thereafter use Feints, Flanks or Hide for Sneak Attacks?
I think Surprise Attack should probably apply to any Rogue, who, when Initiative begins, was using either Search or Scout or Avoid Notice in Exploration Mode. Narratively, that just makes sense to me, but I get it. It is an abstraction.
It's similar with how I feel the Exploration options actually *don't* feel broad:
If you were Searching ("Seek meticulously for hidden doors, concealed hazards, and so on") when you came across enemies, why don't you get to prepare anything related to or at least even get a bonus vs alive "hazards" you found known as "foes"?
If you were Scouting, wouldn't you then either alert your allies, thus affording them the usual +1 to initiative, and/or automatically be Hidden/use Stealth? You don't Scout by waving your arms in the air yelling "Here I am". It is a quiet slow careful activity.
To say nothing of the fact that they should both...
I think you're overanalyzing things without seeing how they work in actual play. If you can carry your sword, and torch, and search, and roll avoid notice then the enemy can as well... so now as DM I've got to figure in all their advance abilities and notices as well, and None of the adventures nor the game design are designed for preparatory actions. Everyone starts out with an even keel. If the rogue is scouting ahead and tells me they are going into avoid notice roll before rolling initiative I might have the enemy make a perception roll (Secret) vs. the scout's passive stealth, to see if he can do so without being seen or might not depending upon the awareness of the situation.
One thing I like about GM'ing PF2 Is I don't have to make all those judgement calls. The game has actual mechanics to codify them so I can spend my time running the combat, and monsters without having to make all these situational judgements.
Also, Rogues can get Sneak Attack without Stealth. Feint, flanking, and other conditions that make someone Off Guard allow sneak attack. They can even take cover and Hide in combat to set it up that way.
Just because a rogue is not in Avoid Notice doesn't mean they lose Sneak Attack, they have a lot of ways to get it.
I’m specifically talking about Surprise Attack, which is distinct from Sneak Attack. It took a little for me to get used to it as I never played a Rogue in PF1 so the whole concept was fairly new.
Yep, I listed ways to get Sneak Attack, but Surprise Attack is only triggered on Initiative, and only with Stealth (thus my point about the onset of Combat and the trouble with locking the Rogue into Avoid Notice) or Deception (see my questions as to just how this happens - are you already Hidden/Hiding somehow, is it an ambush situation). And, also, the interactions between the end of Exploration Mode and the onset of Encounter Mode.
So it’s not that they lose Sneak Attack in Avoid Notice mode, but that they can’t get Surprise Attack unless they are in Avoid Notice Mode (for Using Stealth in Initiative) or Hiding somehow…or whatever gives you Deception for Initiative.
The rogue's "Surprise Attack" is a unique ability, and if the initiative is high enough is a bonus to damage done before other actions are completed in the game. If you want to get the extra damage as a rogue you have to sneak in and hit them where and when they don't see it coming. As mentioned Sneak attack is much easier to achieve.
Wow...lots of information here...thanks to everyone for the conversation. Being new to the 2nd edition I am still in the learning stage of playing and all this information and thoughts is great. I see that the various modes can look to "lock" your character into some actions and seem to ignore others. I had not thought of that before, so thank you for opening my eyes to it. I mostly play the 'rule of cool' and let some of the 'harder' rules slide, but it is very eye-opening to hear what others think and it makes me re-evaluate how I am personally using the rules.
Well to be fair, I’m looking at this fairly deeply and likely overthinking everything, so don’t get too hung up on anything I’m saying about being “locked in”.
But it is important for you as a Rogue to choose the Racket that fits your preferred Rogue-style in combat.
It’s also good to get to know the interactions of flanking (which causes the opponent to be “Off-guard” - the old “flat-footed”. ) Essentially -2 to AC. And in PF2, every bonus is pretty useful, moreso than in PF1.
I really like the Ruffian racket as they can use non-finesse melee weapons with Sneak Attack, up to a d8. Great for my Lizardfolk (“iruxi”) Hunter/woodland trapper cum bounty hunter Rogue. Used a trident for sneak attack. Or he will. If we ever have a combat.
Scoundrels are good at Feinting to keep foes flat-footed/Off-guard, even vs their friends attacks on a Critical Success. Was good for my lithe rapier Twin Feint (which isn’t a Feint but still) using Elven Rogue. I didn’t use Feint much, mostly took advantage of Flanking or Twin Feint (makes two attacks, and the second one is vs Off-guard even if not Flanking). I already established in that game here on the boards the interactions between Feint and Twin Feint. Gah.
The Thief racket lets you add Dex to damage with Finesse weapons...
The Mastermind can use Recall Knowledge to make the creature Off-guard to their...
On Caks Character sheet he took the "Thief" racket.
oopos...yes, sorry I thought I mentioned that...
If the rogue is scouting ahead and tells me they are going into avoid notice roll before rolling initiative I might have the enemy make a perception roll (Secret) vs. the scout's passive stealth, to see if he can do so without being seen or might not depending upon the awareness of the situation.
This is where I get confused. Do you mean “Scout” or scouting? *Can* you be using Scout in Exploration Mode and then say “If we hit Initiative” I’m “going into Avoid Notice”? That seems…odd. And it seems to force you as the GM to…make a judgement call about whether it is possible.
I’m definitely overanalyzing, because the “codification” is extremely muddied. I want to be able to have actual play where I know discretely what my options are. Currently I’m confused. I mean it’s not a huge issue. Adayil doesn’t have a lot of options, but still, I want to understand how you want us to use the framework.
At the moment I don’t seem to understand a very basic principle. And in all my other games it isn’t a problem mostly because we don’t use Exploration Mode as rigidly. I get that you prefer it as you feel it helps to reduce your adjudication/judgement calls.. But the players need to understand how the system works, and this one totally doesn’t.
A) There are three modes of play: Exploration, Encounter and Downtime.
B) In Exploration mode, you choose an action which necessarily impacts Initiative. Is this correct?
C) Encounter Mode begins with Initiative? Or it doesn’t? If it does, at which point do I get to choose which “up to now Exploration-informed” “Encounter/Initiative-conversant activity” that I want to take advantage of, both narratively and mechanically?
@scranford - do you understand what I don’t get? Anyone else see my point? The system as presented seems discrete, codified and rigid for reasons of efficiency and simplicity. It should be elegant…. But everything as explained to me implies a looseness (particularly at the changeover from Exploration to Encounter Mode) that a) apparently doesn’t exist, and b) doesn’t work.
In the games I run, I don't use the various modes as rigidly. I'll ask for Exploration Activities and apply them as necessary, but I allow for changes at any time, even right before an encounter starts if it makes sense narratively. I also assume everybody has weapons out and ready no matter which exploration activity they are doing, unless they're doing something that requires their hands to be free like climbing. It seems kind of silly to me not to be ready to fight when you're expecting trouble.
No.
Exploration mode does not necessarily impact initiative at all. If you take the Scout activity, you give the rest of the group a +1 to initiative if you happen to have an encounter. That is the only activity that has any impact on initiative at all directly, though Avoid Notice lets you choose between Stealth and Perception for the roll, so has a potential indirect impact.
If you want to be stealthy, Avoid Notice.
If you want to look for traps, Search.
If you want to cast Detect Magic every minute, use Detect Magic.
As for the switchover, a lot of the time it is just organic. As for changing Exploration activities at the last moment, I think it's really situational.
Can you suddenly Avoid Notice if you, personally, are talking to the King and the barbarian throws an axe at him? No.
Can you suddenly Avoid Notice if you've RPed being a bit behind the group, have not engaged in talking with the underground beings in a dark cave, and have no light source? Maybe, even probably.
But, I've yet to see the transition over ever be anything but organic, which does not mean it could not happen, just that it's not common IME.
Also, Scranford, there is no passive Stealth, or passive anything, in 2E.
The sneaking person rolls Stealth (or the GM does it secretly), and that roll is compared to the Perception DC of anyone who could potentially detect them.
So, for instance, if the Nature roll I made in the gameplay thread was instead for trying to sneak past a guard, that guard would need a Perception of +12 or more to see her, since Perception DC is Perception +10.
It works the same way with Seek. If I think someone is Hidden, and I look in the right area, I (or the GM) rolls Perception, with a target of Stealth DC< which is Stealth modifier +10.
In the games I run, I don't use the various modes as rigidly. I'll ask for Exploration Activities and apply them as necessary, but I allow for changes at any time, even right before an encounter starts if it makes sense narratively. I also assume everybody has weapons out and ready no matter which exploration activity they are doing, unless they're doing something that requires their hands to be free like climbing. It seems kind of silly to me not to be ready to fight when you're expecting trouble.
I find that in actual play the exploration activities fade into the background, and I believe we're over complicating things. I'm doing this introduction scenario to help hammer out some of the things different about PF2, but I believe I'm causing more confusion than clearing things up. We're about to go into Encounter mode anyway... so later I'll try to clear things up about the way we've used Encounter and a few more thoughts to help clarify.
I will never allow the players to have their weapons out and ready in any of my PF2 games. This would mean if the bad guys know you're coming, they can be hidden behind cover with bows out and arrows ready before you guys even open the door. Where do we draw the line. Does everyone now cast all their buff spells, and take their potions before combat. Might as well play 5e if that's what we want to do. What's good for the goose is good for the gander. PF2 is designed around everyone starting out with the three action economy so everyone starts at the same place. Why would you ever take the "Quick Draw" feat if you had readied weapons. If that's they way you want to run it in your games then great... but I'll stick to RAW for the most part.
BTW... I know the written word can come across as harsh when it's not meant to. I'm all for us learning together, and though I get frustrated when I'm unable to explain things to your benefit, I'm not upset or angry so don't take my posts wrong.
Okay. So one final attempt at explaining exploration mode using the last gameplay posts as an example.
First of all Exploration mode is untimed. It could be 5 minutes or 5 days between checks. It's just another mode. In this instance it took about 5 minutes for the group to explore the first area of the cave.
If you look under the spoiler you'll see that Telurion, and Caks rolled high on their search, while Lil, and Alorea rolled low. That's why they saw something with their search, and you didn't.
That 5-minute stretch of exploration mode is over.
In order for Telurion to take the time to search the cave in to see if it's safe, or Lil to search the disturbed ground you would need to switch to "Investigate" mode for the next part of the exploration. You are no longer looking for traps or hidden doors. That part of the exploration is complete.
If Caks and Telurion share what they found then you could switch to this mode, but there is no need. As I said to speed things up the search rolls have been made. While normally they wouldn't find the disturbed earth with a search roll, they rolled high enough that I threw them a clue.
Here is the way I would play the Exploration mode if I was in charge... which I'm not just trying to provide some context.
Telurion (Either Search if he's leading the way or defend, if he's second in line waiting for threats. With my house rule he could either have his shield raised, or a weapon in hand... not both if using defend.
Caks: I would almost always use Avoid Notice as a sneaky rogue. Not only can you use Stealth as initiative, but if the caca hits the rotating wind device, and you roll high enough initiative you get the old "Surprise Attack" which makes them off-guard, and gives you that fun extra d6 sneak attack damage bonus.
Alorea: With the highest perception in the party she is a natural for the Search Activity. You don't necessarily have to be in the front to use this, but finding a trap before the others stumble into it isn't a bad thing. Still from 15' back you could warn others that something doesn't look right ahead, as long as you can sense it. Other options would be Detect Magic If she chose to pray for that cantrip. No reason not to have the 30' magic radar going.
Adayil: With her Darkvision Adayil would normally be good at Searching or scouting, but her low perception would make that less effective. With the highest intelligence I would think using the Investigate Activity would be great. If she needs to make an arcana, crafting or occultism roll she'd be great, and since RK rolls don't need to be trained even her untrained skills are good. And it's easy to expand this role if it's one you choose.
Krutk: As a witch familiar Krutk can play a valuable roll in exploration mode. He would be perfect for Scout. With his enhanced sences, and fast movement he is like an advanced radar warning of any threats that might throw us into encounter mode.
Lil: Lil can be a descent backup to any of the other roles. She's good at a lot... but not necessarily great at any of them. Depending on the environment she might choose. Search if in an unexplored area with traps, Investigate if she wants to use her knowledge of things, or Defend if she wants to start with shield raised. She could also use something like Track or obscure trail if the situation arise using her trained survival skill.
Again, not trying to tell you how to play your characters. If you all want to only use the hustle activity non-stop we can do that, just trying to demonstrate how the party mechanics outweigh the individual mechanics in PF2. If you build your characters in a vacuum, you won't be happy with the way PF2 implements them.
Also, don't forget the "Downtime" activity of re-training. If you've got something you don't use, or something you want to enhance please feel free to do so. I also allow unlimited character changes until you level up the first time... especially for those new to this rule system.
A final thing to keep in mind is that unlike many other games (Especially for those who grew up in the Skyrim / BG3 era) you many times aren't on a clock in PF2.
These youths have been missing only a couple of days, and nobody knows if they are in trouble, lost or dead, so in this instance there is a bit of a clock running... but after their outcome has been decided if you want to take a little downtime to make money, roleplay or retrain, just let me know and I'll delay the next encounters till your ready. This isn't always the case, but you can always plan downtime and see if it happens.
This would mean if the bad guys know you're coming, they can be hidden behind cover with bows out and arrows ready before you guys even open the door.
This is a perfectly standard thing in RPGs since I remember playing them - I see nothing wrong with the situation. It could perfectly happen, and has happened I am sure many times through the years :)
The reverse, players scouting the enemies in advance and jumping them from an advantage point/surprising them/blietzkrieging them, is also something perfectly normal in my head.
I am actually puzzled you would find this... 'Wrong'? Does it mean in reality, in PF2 it is impossible to ambush someone, or be ambushed? :O
Does everyone now cast all their buff spells, and take their potions before combat.
Yes, if you have caught your opponent unaware, then you get to gain advantage with things like this, but also positioning, etc.
Might as well play 5e if that's what we want to do. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
I don't get the parallel here.
PF2 is designed around everyone starting out with the three action economy so everyone starts at the same place. Why would you ever take the "Quick Draw" feat if you had readied weapons.
You can have your weapon out because you are in unknown territory, plodding through a cave which you do no know it is safe or not. But there can be a million other situations where you do not have your weapon in hand, and the quickdraw feat is still useful. I am sure there is no need to enumerate them, but you can de riding a horse or a cart, carrying a fallen friend, having a drink in the tavern, walking the streets, sleeping, cooking, making a fire, you just used your ranged weapon and now want to change to melee, etc, etc, etc.
Telurion (Either Search if he's leading the way or defend, if he's second in line waiting for threats. With my house rule he could either have his shield raised, or a weapon in hand... not both if using defend.
I feel like we keep insisting on the same things :)
I think we all understand how it works, but some us feel it works... Poorly?In my case:
- Why can I Search with a Torch in Hand, but not with a sword?
- Why can I defend with a sword or a shield in hand but not both?
And of course your reply will be - because that is how the rules are written. And obviously I agree with it. Simply those rules do not make much sense to me, they seem incoherent.
Again, not trying to tell you how to play your characters. If you all want to only use the hustle activity non-stop we can do that, just trying to demonstrate how the party mechanics outweigh the individual mechanics in PF2. If you build your characters in a vacuum, you won't be happy with the way PF2 implements them.
Also, don't forget the "Downtime" activity of re-training. If you've got something you don't use, or something you want to enhance please feel free to do so. I also allow unlimited character changes until you level up the first time... especially for those new to this rule system.
A final thing to keep in mind is that unlike many other games (Especially for those who grew up in the Skyrim / BG3 era) you many times aren't on a clock in PF2.
These youths have been missing only a couple of days, and nobody knows if they are in trouble, lost or dead, so in this instance there is a bit of a clock running... but after their outcome has been decided if you want to take a little downtime to make money, roleplay or retrain, just let me know and I'll delay the next encounters till your ready. This isn't always the case, but you can always plan downtime and see if it happens.
True, you are not telling us how to play our characters, but the ruleset seems to force artificial and apparently nonsensical stuff onto the players (like the ones I pointed above), simply to conform to that 'tight math'. I do not feel the party mechanics outweigh the individual mechanics in PF2, at least not in an organic way. It feels like a convoluted contraption to impose certain behaviours and then call them 'teamwork'.
Like I said before and I will repeat, I am here to give it a try, and this is what I am doing. But it would be nice to see from your end (scranford) some flexibility in acknowledging some of the things we are saying.