Round 1 summary
Âdayil: Quickly identifies the creatures and shares this information with the remainder of the party, she then draws forth her Falchion, and gestures with a quick word for Krutk to scuttle along the South wall and find a hiding place... which he does.
LIl: A thick mist seems to partially obscure Lil, and any close to her can feel the dampness of a heavy fog envelope her, then a sudden bolt of lightning burst forth from the air around her, zapping one of the Xulgaths a glancing blow in the back, as he turns to retreat behind some rocks. Strangely much of the party feels a firm breeze at their backs as the lightning crack and find themselves able to push forward a bit.
Xulgaths: At the sudden un-provoked attack the closes Xul issues a curt command to the other two, and pulls a wicked dark javelin from behind his back as he strides behind the rocks, and ducks down giving himself greater cover from more attacks. The other two take off at a run for the SE corner of the cave... which is shrouded in darkness from the PC's.
Telurion: Seeing that the battle has begun Telurion delays until he sees the Xulgath point, and two of them dash towards the unrevealed SE corner of the room. Aided by Lils boost he dashes twowards what are now revealed (to him). the prone bodies of several youths tied and bound in stink ropes. Pulling forth his sword he swivels to confront the approaching Trogs.
Alorea: The jovial young halflings expression quickly turns from one of serene mirth, to a frightening battle mask, as she takes advantage of the sudden push of wind to edge into the chamber and begin to cast a spell. A handful of metal pieces fly forth from her hand at great velocity towards the Xul who considered himself well hidden. He was very surprised to see the missiles tear great chunks out of his right side, then return to the scary little humanoid. The cleric then finds a little outcropping of stone to slide behind giving herself cover.
Caks: Also taking advantage of the unexpected gust of wind Caks moves along the Western wall of the chamber trying to get a better look at the injured, hiding Xul. As he moves along the rough wall, passing Alorea, he draws forth his trusty sling, and stops to drop a bullet into its pouch.
^ Adayil (Moved and attacked, hitting the Xul but not downing him)
^ Lil (Lil is up)
^ Telurion
^ Baddies
^ Alorea
^ Caks
NOTE TO ALL..
It would be really helpful to me if you would copy/paste the icons in the campaign description to designate your actions. I won't require it, but it keeps me from having to decipher your action economy, and I believe it would help us all learn how to use this three-action economy.
Umm, am I meant to post something here or am I waiting for direction from you Supreme Being? I’m happy for Adayil to speak after Lill if that will smooth things…
A little discussion about using social skills in combat. I'll address what was attempted here first.
1. Unless you have something like intimidating glare for intimidation you take a -4 penalty to the intimidate check. To use diplomacy there would be a large penalty if there is no shared language... which is the case here. They don't understand what you're saying, though throwing down your weapon is a universal sign, the fact that your group has killed one and attacked all of them carries more sway. You might be saying something like. "These rabble are not worth bloodying my blade any further. Kill them"! for all they know.
2. These creatures started out as indifferent. The minute they attacked the attitude turned to unfriendly, and when one of them was killed it became hostile. The diplomacy really needed to start before the combat as it takes 1-minute of conversation, and Roleplaying to attempt to "Change their attitude with a Diplomacy check vs their Will DC. This is an untrained diplomacy action, and if you delay till your party "Face" tries this first then you might be able to come to a peaceful resolution... or not. Depending upon how you Roleplay I can make adjustments to the DC. For instance, if you had started out with diplomacy, I might rule that throwing down your sword gives you a +2 bonus to your diplomacy roll. There are feats available that let you do diplomacy checks faster and more easily, but these are the RAW.
3. If you can use this "Make an Impression" one-minute activity and turn them to Friendly, or Helpful Then you can use the one-action Request Diplomacy checks to make a request. In this example had you succeeded in making them friendly, you could request that they lay down their weapons and surrender or leave immediately or something like that. As above I'll use the Roleplaying to adjust this DC. Heck if you critical and make them friendly you might get to the point where you sit around smoking the peace Pipe and snacking on questionable meat products... or finding out why they are here.
4. In this case the fact that you don't speak their language, and you've been slaughtering them, and the Make an impression activity takes a minute, and you probably couldn't make them friendly the diplomatic solution is out of question. Perhaps you could still try an intimidate... but it's towards one creature (without a penalty), and the results aren't long term... not to mention the fact there is already a -4-penalty due to no shared language, and throwing down your weapon can be interpreted as surrendering more likely than brandishing it in a threatening manner.
5. Feel free to discuss further here. You should probably decide party tactics among each other after this encounter, and we'll go through options that might have changed things and a quick review. Also, input on how OBR works for the game. Keep in mind the "Horizontal" progression, and tight math required to make PF2e work as intended. Everything has a price.
6. After this brief exploration of Social, Exploration, and Encounter modes we'll experienced a brief (Depending on what you want to do) Downtime mode where you can re-train etc. to make changes to your character before we kick of the campaign for real... and you can decide if you want to continue using the RAW as I interpret them.
BTW... I'm a big fan of this codification of the rules. I as a GM don't have to constantly make "Judgement" calls as there is probably a rule that covers it... but I understand that it's not everyone's "cup of tea".
Umm, am I meant to post something here or am I waiting for direction from you Supreme Being? I’m happy for Adayil to speak after Lill if that will smooth things…
After the long posts about how, diplomacy works you have the right to change your actions now... and you do go in imitative order. Like I said if you post before you're turn, I'll try to make it work, but sometimes it needs to be altered.
So in Combat, using Intimidate is faster or simpler than using Diiplomacy? Like for example if you want someone to surrender?
In a word... yes. Without special feats you really can't use diplomacy in encounter mode. Again, if there are special circumstances, I might rule otherwise... but it would have to be really special. If you use your character progressions to build a character that uses diplomacy in combat you would be angry if everyone else could do it based on GM ruling.
Remember though if you don't share a language or have intimidating glare there is a -4 to the role, and it is now a visual instead of an auditory trait.
Using intimidate to "Coerse" has the same limitations as diplomacy... 1-minute and shared language, but the results can be harsh.
Coerce
Critical Success: The target gives you the information you seek or agrees to follow your directives so long as they aren't likely to harm the target in any way. The target continues to comply for an amount of time determined by the GM but not exceeding 1 day, at which point the target becomes unfriendly (if it wasn't already unfriendly or hostile). However, the target is too scared of you to retaliate—at least in the short term.
Success: As critical success, but once the target becomes unfriendly, they might decide to act against you—for example, by reporting you to the authorities or assisting your enemies.
Failure: The target doesn't do what you say, and if they were not already unfriendly or hostile, they become unfriendly.
Critical Failure: The target refuses to comply, becomes hostile if they weren't already, and is temporarily immune to your Coercion for at least 1 week.
The Demoralize action is a single action designed to "Freighten" the opposing creature.
Demoralize
With a sudden shout, a well-timed taunt, or a cutting put-down, you can shake an enemy's resolve. Choose a creature within 30 feet of you who you're aware of. Attempt an Intimidation check against that target's Will DC. If the target doesn't understand the language you are speaking, or you're not speaking a language, you take a –4 circumstance penalty to the check. Regardless of your result, the target is temporarily immune to your attempts to Demoralize it for 10 minutes.
Critical Success: The target becomes frightened 2.
Success: The target becomes frightened 1.
So mechanically in PF2e it would be impossible to convince an almost defeated group to drop their weapons and perhaps plead for their lives? Or at least stop to listen? They could not be reasoned with (because it takes a minute), but instead can only be threatened to comply. Is that correct?
But then the DM fiat comes into play, right? What about if the first gesture is not in itself anything mechanically written down somewhere, but has a chance to make the other side pause, and THEN allow you the 1 minute you need for the full Diplomacy thing? We would not call it any of the things above, we would call it... 'Give your enemy pause' or something along those lines.
Couldn't that work?
I can imagine some groups might not care if they live or die, others might be blinded by rage, or traumatized by the violence, but there may be some who are just wanting to LIVE? And they would jump at an opportunity to parley?
Why didn't you try diplomacy before attacking. Different strategy would have resulted in this never taking place. You can't talk with them however due to no shared language, and a Recall Knowledge: Society might have revealed their language barrier if that question was asked. If you had a party concentrating on diplomacy before force perhaps someone would have magic to allow communication.
You could choose to do non-lethal damage, tie them up then try to reason with them. There are other ways to accomplish this without changing the rules. In fact, there is a high-level feat that allows you to use diplomacy as a three-action activity. Would you allow for free what takes a "Legendary" proficiency to accomplish?
Let's let the game mechanics try for a while before trying to change things. As I always bring up the math is tight, so when you try to change things, they have unexpected consequences.
Let's look at things from the Xul's point of view.
They have a reason for being here, and for capturing the youths... but you don't know what that is. They were going about what Xul's do in their situation when a heavily armed party burst into the room and started attacking them. They tried to talk as they moved away from the conflict, but nobody could understand them. Then you killed one of them and attacked them all. They have no idea that you want to give them a chance to escape, because your actions have been the exact opposite of that... so they're trying to live by escaping as they see this as their only option. If you let them run away and encounter them later, they're still hostile but not stupid, so you might be able to diplomacy them out of encounter mode.
The party did nothing wrong. They saw these Xul's and decided to attack them. That is a perfectly valid response... but it has its consequences as well.
My question is much simpler, and I am not even talking about or questioning this situation here. Come on, we've all ben at this for some time now to know different actions equate to different results and consequences. I am not apologising for our actions, trying to change them, or asking for a different outcome, so no need to be patronising... And for me, only the DM is privy to the reasons motivating the NPCs - if they surrender or not is totally up to you, just to make things clear.
What I am asking is (and it was prompted by your mechanical explanation of the situation), mechanically does this mean that if a fight has already been initiated (like in this case), but the players simply decide to offer a chance for parlay midway, it will never be successful, unless you have the Feat to use Diplomacy in three actions? Meaning, once combat has started, there is no way to change its course, and defuse the situation? Because it is not stipulated in the rules?
Sorry if it came across as patronizing... it wasn't intended that way. I will admit I'm becoming very frustrated with the constant attempts to change the game rules to make it more like other games we've played. I don't mind explaining how something works, but really don't want to have to defend the RAW.
I was attempting to point out that trying to turn a "Many shades of gray" game system into a "Black and White" is an exercise in futility. I'll give you a black and white answer below...I was simply trying to point out that the answer is not always black and white.
Yes! There is no way to switch from bloody murder to negotiation in the rules! Simple answer.
Sorry if it came across as patronizing... it wasn't intended that way. I will admit I'm becoming very frustrated with the constant attempts to change the game rules to make it more like other games we've played. I don't mind explaining how something works, but really don't want to have to defend the RAW.
I was attempting to point out that trying to turn a "Many shades of gray" game system into a "Black and White" is an exercise in futility. I'll give you a black and white answer below...I was simply trying to point out that the answer is not always black and white.
Yes! There is no way to switch from bloody murder to negotiation in the rules! Simple answer.
Thank you :)
But will you consider it 'outside' the rules? If you find it makes sense? Or not really?
My intent is to run the game as close as possible to RAW. The rules allow for some GM intervention, but almost everything is codified.
For instance... stopping the Persistent fire damage has a "Suggested DC" but if your doused with water I might just say it's out... or lower the DC significantly.
But it will be more making adjustments... bonuses and penalties than changing the rules.
I will give until tomorrow to see if anyone wants to change their round three actions. Telurion is actually up before Lil if he wishes to post his action based on initiative count.
Diplomacy is very hard to use in combat. I think the feat that allows it is something like level 11. Not only because if you've been trying to kill somebody they might be skeptical that you are going to stop, but your allies may not be willing to stop.
However, while there may not be mechanical reasons for a group to stop fighting, there are often narrative ones. In many APs, for instance, there will be language to the effect of: If X guards die, the rest surrender or flee; or if miniboss Y dies, his minions surrender. Nothing stops a player from free action speaking with no dice roll to try and pitch a surrender.
Also, as has been mentioned, you can declare a non-lethal attack. I think it's a -2 to hit, but if the last damage done is non-lethal, the person is knocked out.
@Supreme Being - I’m not seeing anyone asking for the rules to be changed. If anything, all Albion is asking is what are the limits, and what can we and can’t we do.
Where Albion asked a simple question:
I can imagine some groups might not care if they live or die, others might be blinded by rage, or traumatized by the violence, but there may be some who are just wanting to LIVE? And they would jump at an opportunity to parley?
You fired back with:
Why didn't you try diplomacy before attacking. Different strategy would have resulted in this never taking place. You can't talk with them however due to no shared language, and a Recall Knowledge: Society might have revealed their language barrier if that question was asked. If you had a party concentrating on diplomacy before force…
without addressing his question. And much of your answers boil down to “the math is tight”. But we are actually trying to work out something else - “What *can* we do?” Narratively we are collectively a bit frustrated at times because the approach is tight. You are telling us that the ruleset prevents narrative play. I don’t think it actually does - I would argue that your approach does. Which is fine, we are all feeling out both the ruleset and how you run it. And I completely accept it. It works.
And I will throw in one more spanner - just because you are freed from having to make judgment calls, doesn’t mean you are freed from being able to. And in this instance, there is absolutely no good reason why the xulgath should throw down their weapons except that…perhaps…they a) wish to live (likely) and b) understand Adayil’s attempt at calling for surrender (unlikely) and c) trust her at all (quite unlikely). But that doesn’t have to boil down to tight math or a dice roll.
Adayil is making an attempt to stop further slaughter. This is not an Intimidate attempt. Heck it isn’t even Diplomacy and it sure as hell hasn’t been worked out in an out of game teamwork huddle. The other players can have their characters react as they wish. You’re going to have to accept that we don’t think in coded actions yet and maybe some of us never will. We have accepted what we know so far of the ruleset and how you run it. I thought we had moved beyond a rather thorny period of…kvetching and into a more productive give and take of how this game will and is run.
I’m actually really warming to this group, and hope to inject some roleplay to gel the “team” together that we missed by being whisked out of the tavern and into adventure. Happy to do some roleplay in this thread…
BTW for those of you logging into OBR on separate devices I think you stay logged in if you use the same browser on each device. Changing browsers clears you from the room.
Here are the hiding rules.
You huddle behind cover or greater cover or deeper into concealment to become hidden, rather than observed. The GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result to the Perception DC of each creature you're observed by but that you have cover or greater cover against or are concealed from. You get a +2 circumstance bonus to your check if you have standard cover (or +4 from greater cover).
Success If the creature could see you, you're now hidden from it instead of observed. If you were hidden from or undetected by the creature, you retain that condition.
If you successfully become hidden to a creature but then cease to have cover or greater cover against it or be concealed from it, you become observed again. You cease being hidden if you do anything except Hide, Sneak, or Step. If you attempt to Strike a creature, the creature remains off-guard against that attack, and you then become observed. If you do anything else, you become observed just before you act unless the GM determines otherwise. The GM might allow you to perform a particularly unobtrusive action without being noticed, possibly requiring another Stealth check.
If a creature uses Seek to make you observed by it, you must successfully Hide to become hidden from it again.
Sorry guys. Day got away from me and I'm pooped. I'll get a big post up this weekend to spell out what happened, and set things up for your downtime activities.
I'm allowing 30-days for you to retrain, earn money etc. Let me know when you're ready to move forward, and I'll start things up.
Also, feel free to discuss strategies you might want to adapt as a group when certain encounters are presented. Nothing wrong with the way you guys did it... just want to make sure you're all on the same page.
I need to look at the PF2e downtime rules before anything else :)
I had read and use some about the PF1 downtime, but I am sure PF2 will be different right?
As for group strategies, *shrug* not really sure what to say since I do not master the mechanics enough - I can say in most situations, Telurion will probably allow their foes a chance at surrender, unless they are threatening innocents (or he perceives they are), or blatantly attacking the group.
I think it would be nice to set up situations in which we can attack them from afar with magic and ranged attacks, and force the bad guys to come to us?
Next level he will probably go into Paladinhood, so he is the quintessential 'good guy'.
As for group strategies, *shrug* not really sure what to say since I do not master the mechanics enough - I can say in most situations, Telurion will probably allow their foes a chance at surrender, unless they are threatening innocents (or he perceives they are), or blatantly attacking the group.
Seems fair enough.
I think it would be nice to set up situations in which we can attack them from afar with magic and ranged attacks, and force the bad guys to come to us?
Yep, that seems smart. In PF2, kiting with ranged attacks (or delaying) to force the foes to use their movement and thus Actions is usually the default at the onset of combat. Otherwise you use some or all your Actions to move to them, and then they can all wail on you with three actions each on their turn.
Alorea, Lillanith and Adayil all have ranged spell (or spell-like) options. I imagine Caks has some ranged capability.
Once things get toe-to-toe then providing flanks for each other is about the only thing I can think of.
I'm thinkning of Sentinel dedication for heavy armor at level 2, so Adayil will actually want to swing her falchion in addition to mystical arts. It isn't optimal, but I'm hoping it won't be terrible.
It's not always smart.
For instance, if the Xulgath had been more aggressive, the entire group would have been in the stench aura, and Sickened is a nasty condition.
We have a group with tons of reliable in-combat and out-of-combat healing. We also are a pretty beefy group, when it comes to things like HPs. I think it's best to be flexible, because there will be situations when kiting/delay is good, and there will be times when it will be the wrong thing to do.
When it comes to level 2, and FA, I have no idea of what I'll do. A lot of archetypes don't work well with kineticist, since we neither Strike nor Cast a Spell. I may go Druid, and lean more into Lill's connection with Nature, but I'm really hoping that Howl of the Wild, at the end of May, will have something that works well for her.
Hey Lil, any chance you could elaborate a bit more?
What exactly is not always smart? (Though I don't think anyone was suggestion a 'one tactic is good for all situations')
Also since I have no meta knowledge of the Xulgath, I am not following the stench aura reference. If there is a stench aura, isn't ranged combat generally better?
Apologies if some of these questions are too PF2e noobish.
Sure.
In regards to the Xulgath, if we had fallen back into the tiny hallway, then one of them could have come up and potentially sickened us all, and the other two could have grabbed hostages. Obviously, that did not happen, but it was a way they could have been played.
With something like that, as a lot of abilities like that have a 'if you make the save, you are immune for 24 hours', rider, it's best to close the gap with people who have a reliable chance to make the save and lock the target down so that the people that may be more likely to not make the save never have to.
As for closing or not in general, it can be situational. Some foes will want you to stay back. Archers may well want to trade missile attacks. Mages don't want someone up close.
Other times, staying back and making them come to you is a very good thing to do. For instance, almost all oozes are both very slow and very easy to hit, so kiting them is very effective, even if you split them.
All I was saying is that I think it's situational in what the best approach is at the start of a fight.
Another time that it can beneficial to close is against boss or powerful creatures. Many of them have a significant 3 action power, so limiting who it can hit and/or doing something like a trip to deny the action completely, is very useful.
On a side note, if when we're in combat, I move Lill so that she is some distance from the group, don't take in any negative way. At level 4, I can upgrade her Aura to be a nice form of CC, I can't make the party immune until level 6, so I need to start to practice positioning to ensure I don't debuff us once I get that ability.
Yep, it took me many years to understand that the two people I played with who almost exclusively played Rangers seemed to take the name literally. Range-rs. They almost never got involved in melee. ;)
Ok, just for clarification sake - I was not arguing that ranged attacks would be the best option in this situation, because of the hostage situation. But supposedly we did not know they had hostages.
And regarding the fact it is situational, I had already agreed - I think that one is set in stone.
But picture this. In that previous situation, three xulgaths. I close, and the three of them full attack me. I feel there is like 99% chance I will die?
I agree with Lill in that it pays to be flexible. But it is almost never a good idea for a Barbarian or Monk to spend their first round of combat’s first action entering Rage or Stance, second using another action to close with enemies and then use their final action to attack a group. Every combat I have seen (admittedly level 3 is the highest I have participated in) where any member of the group rushed the enemies turned out terribly. There are things that just won’t work well given that enemies get three actions each to pound you and possibly crit you. Every Action you take from them is one less crit you have to risk.
So being a little bit circumspect in often a good strategy.
I'll stay out of the recommended tactics conversation as you guys are doing a great job discussin this. If you have any specific questions I'll be happy to address them.
A little info on downtime...
There are many things you can perform in downtime, including many customized actions. I'll go over a few of the more common here and give some suggestions for each character on how to perform them. I'm not trying to run your characters for you, just giving some examples that you can digest for future use. I'll probably have a few periods of downtime during this adventure, as I'm intentionally trying to slow down the whole "We've got to enter the next room before something attacks us". style of play. PF2 is very short on random encounters as they're usually listed in the narrative... "If the PC's make a lot of noise the creatures in room 39 will come to aid". If there is urgency I'll be sure to state it in the text.
A little information about Raven might help, and I'll post an updated map later today. This town isn't going to play a major part in your lives after the first adventure... but it might help with planning downtime.
Raven is a Level 0 hamlet. That means anything level 0 is freely available, and some Level 1 stuff as well. It is a rest stop between the larger town of Corsen in the west, and the Royal Asylum a couple of hours west of Raven. The Asylum is self-contained and isolated but frequently visitors to the Asylum stop in Raven to refresh themselves along the journey. Few overnighters as the Asylum has a fine hotel... but lots stop to visit the fountains, say a quick prayer to Thyr or grab something to eat along the way. The cliffs above the town are also a minor tourist attraction for adventurous rock climbers or spelunkers. The river baths are also popular though not many know of them.
To be continued so it won't be a super long single post.
Common Downtime activities
1. Earning Income The "Earn Income" skill action lets you roll to make money using a variety of skills. Once you make the roll on this you can continue to apply the funds earned or change things up and try something else. Some tasks only have a limited amount of time you can perform them or end when a task is accomplished.
Earn Income
You can use a skill to earn money during downtime. You must be trained in the skill to do so. This takes time to set up, and your income depends on your proficiency rank and how lucrative a task you can find. Because this process requires a significant amount of time and involves tracking things outside the progress of adventures, it won't come up in every campaign.
In some cases, the GM might let you use a different skill to Earn Income through specialized work. Usually, this is scholarly work, such as using Religion in a monastery to study old texts—but giving sermons at a church would still fall under Performance instead of Religion. You also might be able to use physical skills to make money, such as using Acrobatics to perform feats in a circus or Thievery to pick pockets. If you're using a skill other than Crafting, Lore, or Performance, the DC tends to be significantly higher.
* [Crafting] Earn Income by crafting goods for the market.
* [Lore] Earn Income by using your knowledge to practice a trade.
* [Performance] Earn Income by staging a performance.
Retraining: Retraining lets you alter your character choices. Perhaps something isn't working the way you thought, or you never use it. Perhaps the next adventure requires wilderness exploration, and you've mainly focused on underground skills. You can retrain feats, skills and some selectable class features. You also can't perform other downtime activities if you're retraining. You also usually need to find some way to retrain... mentor, teacher, library to research etc. Sometimes there is a cost involved. If you retrain a skill that your proficiency level is higher than "Trained" you must move that advanced skill training to another skill.
* Feats: Retraining a feat takes a week of downtime, and you must retrain to the same "type" of feat.
* Skills: Skills also take a week of downtime to perform given a method of acquiring the new skill.
* Class features. If the class feature required, you to make a choice on which to pick it can also be retrained. This normally takes a week as well, but if you're doing a major change like Wizard school, or Durid Order it will take longer.
Crafting: You can use the crafting rules to make things during your downtime. I won't cover the crafting rules in detail here, but basically you spend 1/2 the cost of an item (Materials), then for each day you spend on the item the cost for completing the item is reduced. You only make the skill roll when you start... but depending upon your level, and the level of the item the cost is reduced for time spent.
Some downtime possibilities
* Lil The activity you've currently listed is the "Subsist" activity. This would be a Society roll if in civilized area or a Survival roll if in wilderness. This would be a DC 14 for Raven which is a 0-level town. This would be a basic Sustenance level, but a critical could increase this level if you make it. You can combine this downtime activity with crafting or earning income as well. Som other suggestions. 1) Use your pressure washing abilities to offer to clean off the island in lieu of having to be hand scrubbed. 2) Nature or Survival to attempt to trap food or furs for the village. 3) Acrobatics to do repairs on building roofs etc. that require balance.
* Telurion You could also use the Subsist activity... but I'd probably lower your DC since you already live in Raven. You could use... 1) Athletics to do heavy lifting chores around Raven, or perhaps help in raising supports in the unstable caves. 2)You could teach youths about the lore of Thyr using religion or Thyr Lore. 3) You could use your diplomacy skill to take a job promoting one of the local businesses.
* Cake: The Subsist activity is available to you as well. In addition to duplicating some of the above activities, you could 1) Use Perform to entertain at some of the local establishments. 2) Use crafting to attempt to make some items up to Level 1. 3) Use Thievery to make some circumspect funds. (No thieves guild to have to answer to).
* Adayil: You can also subsist... but not being trained in Society you'd be more likely to do so in the wilderness just outside town. You could also... 1)Use Arcana to teach any interested some minor magics or perhaps work on deciphering some of the arcane texts in the temple library. 2)Use Crafting to manufacture items. 3) Offer to teach tactics to the village militia using Lore: Warfare.
* Alorea Without either the society or survival skill you would need to get creative... but as subsist is an untrained activity you would still have a shot. In addition, you could 1) Help out the temple or on you own with healing, 2) Spend time trying to get converts for Mick 0'Delving...
Of course the "Retraining" activity is available to one and all.
Thanks for the breakdown Supreme Being!
I like the idea of Telurion having a craft also, or trying to learn one.
What about weaponsmithing? Could he be apprenticed to someone in town, and split his time between three chores (I know I keep twisting things :D) - weaponsmithing apprenticeship, volunteering for chores around Raven (I know villages tended to do that - like for example, it is time to plow the fields, everyone contributes. That kind of thing), and teaching youths about the lore of Thyr.
That is how I see him spending his days (barring any specific chores from Father Grimble of course!). Any spare time, he would want to spend with his new adventuring companions, socializing and learning more about them.
Thanks for the breakdown Supreme Being!
I like the idea of Telurion having a craft also, or trying to learn one.
What about weaponsmithing? Could he be apprenticed to someone in town, and split his time between three chores (I know I keep twisting things :D) - weaponsmithing apprenticeship, volunteering for chores around Raven (I know villages tended to do that - like for example, it is time to plow the fields, everyone contributes. That kind of thing), and teaching youths about the lore of Thyr.
That is how I see him spending his days (barring any specific chores from Father Grimble of course!). Any spare time, he would want to spend with his new adventuring companions, socializing and learning more about them.
You can retrain one of your existing skills... but can't add a new one till your class gets a skill advance. Let me know if you wish to do so. You can't do any other downtime activities when you're retraining... but it only takes a week so you would still have three weeks to do other things.
Caks will most likely drift off and look for some loose coins that might make their way into her pouch.
Thievery:
So everyone has to either make a subsist roll, pay their living expense at their level, or pay the difference between your subsist roll and whichever level you wish to sustain. If you are retraining you can’t use the subsist roll for any week you train in. The other rolls are in addition to the subsist roll.
Caks will most likely drift off and look for some loose coins that might make their way into her pouch.
Thievery: 1d20+7
You still need your Society roll DC 14 for subsist
Your thievery roll netted you 6-gp in a months period
Thanks for the breakdown Supreme Being!
I like the idea of Telurion having a craft also, or trying to learn one.
What about weaponsmithing? Could he be apprenticed to someone in town, and split his time between three chores (I know I keep twisting things :D) - weaponsmithing apprenticeship, volunteering for chores around Raven (I know villages tended to do that - like for example, it is time to plow the fields, everyone contributes. That kind of thing), and teaching youths about the lore of Thyr.
That is how I see him spending his days (barring any specific chores from Father Grimble of course!). Any spare time, he would want to spend with his new adventuring companions, socializing and learning more about them.
You need your subsist roll; Society DC 12.
Athletics toll DC14 to earn income with physical labor around town.
If you decide to retrain a skill the earned income will be for three weeks instead of 4, and you’ll have to come out of pocket foe that week.
To clarify the above the subsist and the Earn Income are separate actions and require separate rolls.
During downtime you must pay for your living expenses. This is either out-of-pocket or you use Society or Survival depending on where you are spending the downtime.
Cost of living
Tracking cost of living is usually best reserved for months or years of downtime since that's when someone might earn a substantial amount of money from downtime activities and find that costs really add up. You can usually ignore it if there are only a few days of downtime, though if a PC is roleplaying a fine or extravagant lifestyle, you might charge them during even short periods of downtime to reinforce the story they're telling. For short periods of downtime, characters are usually just passing through a settlement or spending a bit of time there. They can use the prices for inn stays and meals found on page 294 of Player Core. For long stretches of downtime, use the values on the Cost of Living table, repeated below for convenience. Deduct these costs from a character's funds after they gain any money from their other downtime activities.
A character can live off the land instead, but each day they do, they typically use the Subsist activity (Player Core 232) to the exclusion of any other downtime activity.
Table 6-16: Cost of Living
Standard of Living Week Month Year
Subsistence* 4 sp 2 gp 24 gp
Comfortable 1 gp 4 gp 52 gp
Fine 30 gp 130 gp 1,600 gp
Extravagant 100 gp 430 gp 5,200 gp
* You can attempt to Subsist using Society or Survival for free.
Other activities can be combined with this to earn extra money, craft items, etc.
Only "Retraining a skill" can't be used with Subsist so if you choose to retrain then you must pay the standard of living for that week.
I would disagree that it is Subsist for me.
Subsist to me seems to be living off the land, doing whatever you can to just survive. That's shown by a *Success* giving you substance-level lifestyle.
Lil has more than enough money to live at Comfortable in the Inn for the month - that would be 4 gold, and she has 7 and change. That would be before any rewards for saving children.
What I am doing is Earn Income, with whatever odd jobs she finds, to make back some of that.
On a side note, Telurion is a local. He ICly must already have a way to support himself in town. I don't think he should need to make any rolls at all.
There is no reason not to use Subsist action unless you're retraining, except if you make a failure (Minor penalty that can be removed in one day), or a critical failure that gives you a -2 penalty to successive Subsist rolls. The subsist rolls can be made every week... but I just shortened it to once for the 30-day period. I will allow additional rolls if you fail and wish to go on... but for brevity's sake I'll just disregard failure or critical failure. In Tabletop this is a brief thing, but I can see that we could spend weeks of gametime and want to move on.
If Lil makes her Subsist roll DC 14 the following are the results. Comfortable is 4GP per month. If you make your Subsist rule you take the 2GP from Subsist and subtract that from the 4GP comfortable level reducing your cost from 4GP to 2GP. If you crit you get the Comfortable level without spending any additional funds. Sustenance isn't poverty level it's just maybe day-old bread instead of fresh and sleeping on friend's couch every now and then. Unless you fail your roll or critically roll. Comfortable means a nice room with three squares.
If you decide not to use the subsist roll that's fine. You can spend the 4GP and just lay around your room for a month. You can do other things other than subsist. If you wish to use one of the skills I mentioned, or something else you come up with you can... and earn extra income. You need to pick a skill or spell you're using and make an earn income roll using that skill in order to make extra money.
* You can attempt to Subsist using Society or Survival for free.
As far as Telurion... He has probably been making subsist rolls, and earn income rolls for ages as all adults do before gametime... but we're not going back to his 16th Birthday to make the rolls :-). What happened before the game starts is hand waved. He made it to here.
BTW as I mentioned before I don't mind clarifying the rules. I WILL NOT DEBATE WHETHER THEY SHOULD BE RULES OR NOT...
So, could I have a job? Since I have been a local for years? If so, would I still need to roll to Subsist?
Because looking at Subsist in the PF2e Core Rulebook, it really does not seem to apply to this sort of downtime. Feels more like something which you would need to roll if you got stranded on a desert island, or lost in a forest for weeks. Something like that. Even the Success and Failures:
Success You find enough food and shelter with basic protection from the elements to provide you a subsistence living.
Failure You’re exposed to the elements and don’t get enough food, becoming fatigued until you attain sufficient food and shelter.
That is part of the subsist action. You are allowed to use Society to do so in a town or city, and Survival to do so in the wilderness.
The Earn Income activity basically means you do have a job. You still make the roll to determine if you keep your job, or if you excel at your job. I used your 24 as a critical on performing your job... hence the 9GP.
Skill Downtime Activities
Chapter 4: Skills includes several downtime activities, which are summarized here.
Craft: Using the Crafting skill, you can create items from raw materials (page 236).
Create Forgery: You forge a document (page 244).
Earn Income: You earn money, typically using Crafting, Lore, or Performance (page 228).
Subsist: You find food and shelter in the wilderness or within a settlement (page 232).
Treat Disease: You spend time caring for a diseased creature in the hope of curing that creature (page 242).
You can combine any activities except for re-training. Craft, earn income (Which is a job), etc. can be combined with the "Free" subsist roll.
This guy's YouTube videos are pretty good. He just goes to the facts without a lot of dramatic showing off...
At about 12:15 he discusses earned income followed by Subsist.
I think the problem with understanding this is everyone is thinking of subsist being simply surviving... it's not its' just being poor.
Earn Income
Source GM Core pg. 53
You set the task level when someone tries to Earn Income. The highest-level task available is usually the same as the level of the settlement where the character is located. If you don't know the settlement's level, it's usually 0–1 for a village, 2–4 for a town, or 5–7 for a city. A PC might need to travel to a metropolis or capital to find tasks of levels 8-10, and to the largest cities in the world or another plane to routinely find tasks beyond that. Some locations might have higher-level tasks available based on the nature of the settlement. A major port might have higher-level tasks for Sailing Lore, a city with a vibrant arts scene might have higher-level tasks for Performance, and so on. The Earn Income Tasks table on page 47 includes some ideas for suitable tasks. If someone is trying to use a particularly obscure skill, they might have trouble finding tasks of an ideal level, or any at all—no one in most settlements is clamoring for the expertise of someone with Troll Lore.
Once the PC has decided on a particular level of task from those available, use the DC for that level. You might adjust the DC to be more difficult if there's inclement weather during an outdoor job, a rowdy audience for a performance, or the like.
Raven Map updated in my DM profile.
Ok, but then if Earn Income is doing your job in a city/village/urban environment, what is Subsist in an Urban environment? Does it mean you are scrounging around empty trash cans, and living in an abandoned house, or under the bridge, or something like that?
But at the end of the day if I have a house and a job, I don't need to roll Subsist (I may want to, but I don't have to). Even the guy in the video says - 'if you are in a town with no money'
Is that it?
As I posted above....
Sustenance isn't poverty level it's just maybe day-old bread instead of fresh and sleeping on friend's couch every now and then. Unless you fail your roll or critically roll. Comfortable means a nice room with three squares.
You don't have to roll to subsist. It can lower or eliminate your funds you need to spend to survive for a month. If you want to subsist it's 2GP a month at your level. If you want to live comfortably it's 4GP per month and it goes up from there. If you don't roll the subsist you pay the listed cost. If you do it might lower this cost.
I really don't know why you guys are fighting me so hard on this... :-). It's semantics at this point. Either roll it or don't it can save you money so don't get stuck on the terminology.
Encounter mode - Three actions in 6-seconds.
Exploration mode - Time extended but you're doing one thing.
Downtime mode - Time extended again with options to do out of adventuring things. All but retrain can be combined with subsist.
I am not fighting, I am just trying to understand the logic of the rule.
For my character (since he is supposed to be a local, have a job and a place to stay) it makes sense to roll to Earn his Income, but it does not make sense to roll to subsist. He is not interested in scrounging, and will not do so unless forced. Probably would instead go out to hunt or something, if he had to.
Things cannot simply exist in rules, they are supposed to make sense for DM and players.
Now that I understand that I am NOT forced to roll for Subsist, it makes more sense to me, and I would like to disregard the roll. I only rolled because of this post:
You need your subsist roll; Society DC 12.
Athletics toll DC14 to earn income with physical labor around town.
If you decide to retrain a skill the earned income will be for three weeks instead of 4, and you’ll have to come out of pocket foe that week.