I will be on vacation from 6/17-6/30! I won't be posting until I get back to work on Monday, 7/1, after which I'm sure I'll have a lot of catching up to do. Please bot Alorea as necessary during this time.
Will do! We'll miss you... but have fun.
Have a good vacation, Alorea!
I'm fine with another player botting me if they want to do so.
@Scranford: no intent to attack or disrespect. C’mon - you know I’m pretty straight up. I thought you could at least read the content of my text and think about it without going straight to “I have been accused of something”. If being told by someone that they think you are doing something wrong is an “accusation” then I definitely “accuse” social standards of having slipped mightily.
I’m simply pointing out that
A) the ruleset is by its own admission not as robust as you seem to think it is and
B) you aren’t running it RAW, again by your own admission.
And I welcome that. I much prefer you being reasonable and approachable than rigid and combative. We aren’t attacking you. We’re giving you feedback. Which you have, again by your own admission and in no uncertain terms said you “will listen to but ignore”. Which makes me wonder why you listen to it in the first place! ;)
As for the healing “flavor” - I’m with Lil - it’s a terrible tradeoff. Unless you make the healing portion bigger (1 whole HP is…faint praise) the debuff, in a game where you yourself maintain the math is super tight and every bonus counts, punishing. And yes, you might give out 20 extra HP to 20 participants you heal in an area, but haven’t you also debuffed 20 of your allies? I can’t stop Alorea from using it, but I would be worried about accepting it…
Happy to entertain “flavor” for Adayil’s more “green faithesque” healing…
Also: should Krutk not also take damage from Lil’s blast?
Noooooooo!!!
And yes, SB is right. I am awesome.
I'm not going to get into an argument about this. That's why I made the qualifier about intent being misconstrued via text. However, if you perhaps could say "I think you're incorrect it might not turn my key. Instead, you made the judgement "You are completely incorrect". I would never be that blatant and accusatory. That's my point....
I did read your text as I read all of them and quite honestly, they are almost all pointing out why Pathfinder 2e doesn't make sense to you. Kudos to you for sticking with a game you don't seem to like.
I guess we can all come up with our interpretation of RAW. In my opinion I'm not changing the rules, I'm adding to them using the math, and action economy of Pathfinder to cover what I considered actions not covered in the rules. Changing the rules would be allowing preparatory actions which would upset the action economy, and either unbalance things or make my job more challenging.
Water under the bridge...
BTW the "Step" action while a movement is designed so that it doesn't provoke Reactive strikes... so you could step then stride, stride, or cast a spell or pull a potion or anything else without provoking.
@SB - not sure why you think I don’t like PF2 when I constantly profess that I absolutely adore the elegance of the ruleset. I just don’t think it is perfect, and don’t mind saying it. I probably won’t be able to stop complaining, so happy for you to boot me.
* Thanks for the heads up re Step. I dod a bunch of quick research on my phone to find what was a Manipulate, and what triggered Reactive Strike - which said Manipulate and Move Actions. I didn’t think to check if Step wasn’t a Move Action. Absolutely agree, Stepping out of Melee range was the option to take.
* Did the skeleton take extra damage from my club? Like, I get that they have resistance to Slashing, but do they have a Weakness/Vulnerability to Bludgeoning?
I don't mind answering your questions, and listing to you b~+*& about things you don't agree with... I just think a little kindness wouldn't hurt any. :-).
After checking again, the skeleton doesn't take extra damage from the bludgeoning attacks... but let's go ahead and roll with it since I've moved on to another turn. Thanks for pointing this out. This one must have had a weak skull from a previous fracture.
Also, it's a little more complicated... but drawing a weapon in combat does indeed provoke.
It is an Interact action, which has the manipulate trait, which can provoke reactions.
But again we've moved past this... just FYI for future referrence.
Huh. I could have sworn I checked Interact and didn’t see Manipulate trait. But yep, there it is. Please swap my free action “Makes no sense.” to a “Makes sense.”
Also - what’s your feeling about Lil’s blast also necessarily hitting Krutk? Or, if the zombie got a save, perhaps Krutk could too…(EDIT - never mind, it appears Lil’s blast is fairly targeted and perhaps more bolt than blast. Also, she got a 23 to hit…/EDIT)
It would not hit Krtuk. It's a single-target attack, and he was not the target.
I want to echo Adayil in that I was not attacking you in any way. I love the flavor that you are going for with the you feel drunk for a moment after being healed by her because of her diety.
What I was trying to say is that the mechanical rider you added to that feeling was much too harsh for one extra point of healing.
If you feel there has to be a mechanical rider for that flavor, I would propose this:
When a cleric of Mick o'Devling (I hope I got the name right), uses a Heal from Font slots only, it is empowered as if by Healing Hands, causing the cleric to roll d10s instead of d8s. In the event that the cleric already has Healing Hands, the spell instead heals one extra point of damage per spell rank.
The recipient(s) of the Heal feels as if they had just come off a bender and were staggering home, and as a result, all terrain is treated as Difficult Terrain until the end of the recipient(s) next turn.
When used to damage undead or other things with void healing, there are no adjustments, the Heal functions as normal.
Here, you get the drunk feeling that you are going for in a flavor sense, which is very cool. There is a penalty tied onto the increased healing, and it's impactful. Half speed with normal movement, and no Step until the end of your next turn, has an impact. However, unlike a blanket Clumsy, not only does it not make it more likely you'll be hit, but you can use Feats to partly negate it as a player if you choose. They are feats to let you move easier in difficult terrain, but if you take those, then you're not taking something else, so there's a trade off.
I'll review how it makes sense for the ability, then let Alorea decides if she wants to take it. My first instinct is that healing from the FONT slots a +1 to the heal is better than rolling d10's because you might be one down on the maximum heal, but you're one up on the minimum... and I hate rolling ones on healing dice. :-).
In addition, if harming undead the +1 would apply as well, but as they are mostly immune to poison, they wouldn't suffer the difficult terrain penalty. I think the +1 heal is more powerful than the "difficult terrain" penalty... especially since you really don't have to move with any actions the next turn and like you mentioned if mobility is important to your concept you can take feats to offset.
Telurion you are up in the Gameplay thread.
re: the +1, at level 1, it's a wash. 1 d8 gives an average of 4.5, 1 d10 a 5.5. At level 1, the benefit in your blanket +1, and my proposal is identical in game over time. Yes, on a given roll, you might turn to a 1 to a 2 in yours, or there might be a 10 over an 8 in mine, but over time, that's not significant.
At level three or above, when there is more than one die, just adding +1 to healing is close to meaningless, and I do not think that it is worth either the Clumsy 1 you proposed or the difficult terrain idea I did. That is why I had my proposal scale the way that it did, to offset the penalty one would get for it slightly.
I mean, to put it into math - at level 5, a 2-action font Heal will heal 36 on average. Is making that 37 instead really worth a debuff? Especially a debuff that will make you easier to hit?
I think either idea gets across the flavor that you want, and that I think is very interesting. I want to emphasize I /like/ the flavor that you are going for. It's creative and makes a lot of sense, But, I feel that the Clumsy 1 has a downside that is so much worse than the one extra healed HP that the people that might need healing the most, the front line, would often want to turn down that one extra hp, and in that case we also lose the flavor.
Agreed. I've went away from the Clumsy and thinking the difficult terrain modifier makes more sense. That way if you don't want the penalty... just don't move... or move less so there ends up being no penalty for the extra +1 HP. Then if you take feats at higher level, you can change that. For instance, higher speeds, Healing hands which the +1 would stack with, the ability to step into difficult terrain.
With what you proposed you get the +1 that scales up with potentially no penalty to the recipient.
I don't mean this to be a replacement for an ability or greatly affect the game mechanics, so I went with the +1 HP. As you've pointed out the Clumsy penalty is perhaps too harsh, but I think the difficult terrain is fair. Just not going to give a guaranteed bonus with potentially no adverse effects.
If not, we'll just hand wave things. keep them as they are and use role playing to complete the effect. "Wow you're better, but you belch and taste ale".
HI all.
I noticed that posting has slowed down quite a bit. I realize that the varying time zones we all live in slows things down... but let's try to pick things up again.
Turn order is very important in a tactical game like PF2 so some delays are necessary. In order to speed things up a bit, let's make sure before we post to read back through the previous posts in the current round to make sure you didn't miss anything... which might slow things down more.
I'll probably give 24 hours timeframe before I DMPC your characters. If you're going to be away a while, then just let me know in advance. Also, some weekends I'll be available to post and some not... so I won't hold anyone to the posting frequency.
I promise you'll see a lot more stories arise after this conflict is concluded.
I have a couple of questions for future planning, and just so we know how you plan to run things.
How will retraining work?
When we level, will that be something like you gain the benefits at your next daily preparations, or will it take downtime?
If a character should die, and the player wants to keep going (which I know I would), how will replacement characters work?
At this point the next chapter of the saga will slow down to your characters choice. I believe last time we had a month of downtime between adventures so if things go according to plan, I should be able to schedule downtime into the narrative of the game. After this battle is finished I'll have a pretty big Lore Drop with some choices for the group to make on how they wish to move forward.
We'll use the normal downtime rules so you can retrain, earn income, craft whatever you want, and I'll let you guys know when you're ready to move on. If you want to take 6-months... take it, just remember living expenses don't stop. :-)
Upon the unfortunate event of a characters demise the new character will start out at the equivalent level of the character being replaced. The player and I can work together to weave the replacement into the story.
SB: I think I’m having trouble tacitly recognising that new undead are appearing - is there a way to put that in bold and outside of the general narrative?
Sure, I can bold it. What is happening allows a new Undead every other round just FYI. It appears near where she ended the previous round, then she moves away.
Ok, sounds good. And that Zombie then used Stride to again target Rufio?
Rules question Time:
Why did the Skeleton use a Seek action to locate his target (Alorea) just now? Does it give him a bonus? Could have shot without it? I thought Seek was for locating things not obviously apparent…
Ok, sounds good. And that Zombie then used Stride to again target Rufio?
Rules question Time:
Why did the Skeleton use a Seek action to locate his target (Alorea) just now? Does it give him a bonus? Could have shot without it? I thought Seek was for locating things not obviously apparent…
She moved up behind a bush, and he didn’t have line of sight to her. He rolled a perception vs.her static stealth bonus, spotted her then moved to get a clear shot.
The newly summoned moved to Rubio after he moved up.
@SB - Rules question time: if I want to attempt to ascertain what is allowing the elf-maid to keep knitting back together in a more general, non combat RK capacity how do I go about that? Do you get what I mean there? The difference between non-combat Lore/Arcana/Occult/Religion/Nature/Society skill use and skill-conversant RK checks?
I am Trained in Arcana and Occultism for example, do I just use an Action, tell you “I’m trying to sense/understand what is going on with x situation” and then you roll the dice? Does one have to specifically say which skill they are using or does the GM just use whichever is the most applicable and apply that bonus to the Secret check?
I’m also Untrained in Religion - does that mean I can’t make any attempts to discern Religion based things? I mean I know in PF “Undead knowledge *must be Religion*” but surely there are Arcane and Occult (or even Nature and Society, let alone Lore) aspects to all sorts of things Undead, much as not all Religious things are…Undead. Is it possible to use those…sidereally…and where they *are* adjacent, but at a higher DC?
And if this needs to be a tacit “in-combat RK” thing that will outline exactly the weakness, save, source, strength in combat-tactical terms then sure, I could try that too.
I’m clearly also wondering if you are hedging around telling us to use an in-combat RK; but also by-the-way trying to work out how we can use skills to interact with the world more generally. As *you* understand the rules. Because I do find that just because the rules are written a certain way doesn’t always mean everyone understands them the same way. ;)
I'm not sure exactly what you're asking so I'll make a guess at it. as long as you are in initiative order you are required to spend an action to make a Recall Knowledge check in order to determine information about a target.
The Investigate action is the Exploration mode you take if you're trying to recall knowledge when not in combat.
Any time you are using a recall knowledge check... you just let me know what you're trying to determine, and I'll make the secret roll, add any bonus your character has and dispense the results. If you roll high enough, I might ask you if there is anything in particular you are trying to determine... or if you roll a "1" I might lie. :-)
Any Recall Knowledge check can be made "untrained". If I make a secret check for you, I'll use the appropriate modifier whether trained or not. You don't need a check at a higher DC because not having your proficiency bonus is the penalty. With no Wisdom bonus and no proficiency Adayil's bonus is +0 for Religion rolls. PF2e uses this instead of staying away from bonus for this / bonus for that that other systems use. If you later get proficiency, you automatically add your proficiency bonus and level to the roll.
Part of the difficulty many have with this system is learning to think horizontally instead of vertically. In other systems you have a method you use for almost every situation, where in PF2e you can address things with several options. Since you are in combat then yes... you need to use RK action in combat. In exploration mode you can be investigating as your Exploration activity.
In this instance someone using "Detect Magic" could possibly determine if something is being affected magically. Using "Read Aura" on a particular item might reveal unknown information. Saying "Does this spark a memory" might result in a RK roll using Society as a history blurb. A knowledge roll might reveal in this situation according to the roll what might be the effect of this encounter. You could spend an action and saying something like. "I'd like to try to realize what is causing this unnatural healing", might result in information.
This really rewards the players for thinking outside the box, and using other things their characters possess instead of just trying the same thing over and over with no change in results.
Thanks for the answers SB!
I'm not sure exactly what you're asking so I'll make a guess at it. as long as you are in initiative order you are required to spend an action to make a Recall Knowledge check in order to determine information about a target.
Yep, understood so far.
The Investigate action is the Exploration mode you take if you're trying to recall knowledge when not in combat.
Any time you are using a recall knowledge check... you just let me know what you're trying to determine, and I'll make the secret roll, add any bonus your character has and dispense the results. If you roll high enough, I might ask you if there is anything in particular you are trying to determine... or if you roll a "1" I might lie. :-)
Copy that - Investigate in Exploration mode; secret check, roll high. :)
Any Recall Knowledge check can be made "untrained". If I make a secret check for you, I'll use the appropriate modifier whether trained or not. You don't need a check at a higher DC because not having your proficiency bonus is the penalty. With no Wisdom bonus and no proficiency Adayil's bonus is +0 for Religion rolls. PF2e uses this instead of staying away from bonus for this / bonus for that that other systems use. If you later get proficiency, you automatically add your proficiency bonus and level to the roll.
I have seen different DCs based on different skills - for example in GMNABU’s game - for example if we come across a strange tome with pictures of colorful adventurers fighting a dragon on the cover and we try to understand the contents, someone with Lore: Game Rules might have a DC of 12, where someone with Arcana or Occultism might have a DC of 16 and someone with no appreciable skills might have a DC of 20. Is that something that is possible in this game?
Part of the difficulty many have with this system is learning to think horizontally instead of vertically. In other systems you have a method you use for almost every situation, where in PF2e you can address things with several options. Since you are in combat then yes... you need to use RK action in combat. In exploration mode you can be investigating as your Exploration activity.
Well, that sounds promising. But I’ll have to see it in action. I personally feel that skills are wildly underused in PF2, but that will have to wait for my own campaign. I’m still trying to work out the process of using knowledge, but we get to that further down.
In this instance someone using "Detect Magic" could possibly determine if something is being affected magically. Using "Read Aura" on a particular item might reveal unknown information.
So…detect magic - that is a spell right? And Read Aura? Is that a spell, or an ability?
Saying "Does this spark a memory" might result in a RK roll using Society as a history blurb. A knowledge roll might reveal in this situation according to the roll what might be the effect of this encounter. You could spend an action and saying something like. "I'd like to try to realize what is causing this unnatural healing", might result in information.
So to be very clear - do I need to tacitly choose a skill/lore, or do I just tell you what my character is trying to figure out, and you make the secret roll and apply whichever of my bonuses you think is most applicable?
For example, in the instance of the esoteric rulebook: “I try to understand the strange tome” (Lore: Odd History +6, Lore: Dragon Teeth Brushing +4, Society +9, Arcana +5, Nature +12, Occultism +7) - and putting my possible conversant skills there to help you without having to consult my sheet.
I think the other thing I’m having dissonance with is that some of the skills are “Knowledge-y” and some of them aren’t except when they are. Lore, Arcana, Occult, Society are clearly things you know to…know stuff, and recall things. Survival, Athletics, Deception are more active yet can also be leveraged for knowledge.
(Also, where the hell has History gone?)
From my understanding, *any* skill can be leveraged for any RK within reason - I’ve seen Lore: Architecture put forth by a GM to help characters find a way in to ruined keep for example; and *any* skill can be leveraged for Initiative within reason - Acrobatics might be used to start the combat hanging from a chandelier, or an inventive player with a particularly canny character who had a poor Stealth score might use their high Survival score to create a pile of natural brush and detritus and hide in said pile rather than using Stealth, but that would need a) tacitly calling out that they are using Survival instead of Stealth and b) the GM’s acceptance of this creativity. Part of the “addressing a problem with several options” and “rewarding the players for thinking outside of the box” idea you spoke of.
What it comes down to though is a meeting of imaginations. And there…aren’t exactly hard and coded rules for that.
In Adayil’s case, can she, perhaps, upon occasion, use her high Lore: Warfare score in Initiative? When would be the best time to use that, and how do we rule that it can’t just be spammed every time even though it kinda sometimes makes narrative sense. Only in big engagements (“war” rather than “skirmish” or “fight”) where she might be instructing large forces? Against other individuals with more military training? Never? Is it only to recall things about warriors and wars of history?
Anyway, I’ll take some time to reread the skills section. Thanks for taking the time to help me muddle through.
RK does and can have variable DCs, to accommodate more precise Lores.
For instance, say you see a Vampire. You can roll Religion at base DC, or Lore Undead, typically at base -2, making it easier, or Lore: Vampire at base -4, making it much easier.
But, if you see a Zombie, Lore: Vampire does nothing.
Typically people take the broader skills - Arcana does more than just RK after all, but there could be very good reasons to take something more precise, for instance, if it fit a character concept.
As for History, my guess is that there is no History skill because it is just too broad. Every Ancestry has a Lore, every city and region can also have lores. Those are used for, among other things, History about that ancestry/region/whatever.
A general History skill for Golarion, which has had civilizations for tens of thousands of years, would be silly. Even on Earth, historians tend to be petty hyper-focused on an area or time period and often know very little about other areas or eras.
However, Lores can have more than just knowledge uses. A Gambler can roll Lore: Gaming to see how he does at a game of chance, and a sailor can use Lore: Sailing or Lore: Fishing to pilot her fishing boat, just as some examples. They are really very broad skills in and of themselves, and can be used for a large degree of character customization.
Also, there is a feat called Battle Planner in APG that allows Warfare Lore to be used for initiative in certain situations. It is a skill feat for Warfare Lore.
Thanks for the insights Lia.
Also... everyone please use the ◆ for your actions when possible. If you move your character I don't know where you started often, so it's difficult to referee your actions. I know it's tough if you're posting on a phone or something... but it would greatly simplify my resolution of actions. The Three Action Economy is vital to PF2e working as intended so I want to make sure I'm doing it right.
Thanks for the answers SB!
I'm not sure exactly what you're asking so I'll make a guess at it. as long as you are in initiative order you are required to spend an action to make a Recall Knowledge check in order to determine information about a target.Yep, understood so far.
The Investigate action is the Exploration mode you take if you're trying to recall knowledge when not in combat.
Any time you are using a recall knowledge check... you just let me know what you're trying to determine, and I'll make the secret roll, add any bonus your character has and dispense the results. If you roll high enough, I might ask you if there is anything in particular you are trying to determine... or if you roll a "1" I might lie. :-)
Copy that - Investigate in Exploration mode; secret check, roll high. :)
Any Recall Knowledge check can be made "untrained". If I make a secret check for you, I'll use the appropriate modifier whether trained or not. You don't need a check at a higher DC because not having your proficiency bonus is the penalty. With no Wisdom bonus and no proficiency Adayil's bonus is +0 for Religion rolls. PF2e uses this instead of staying away from bonus for this / bonus for that that other systems use. If you later get proficiency, you automatically add your proficiency bonus and level to the roll.I have seen different DCs based on different skills - for example in GMNABU’s game - for example if we come across a strange tome with pictures of colorful adventurers fighting a dragon on the cover and we try to understand the contents, someone with Lore: Game Rules might have a DC of 12, where someone with Arcana or Occultism might have a DC of 16 and someone with no appreciable skills might have a DC of 20. Is that something that is possible in this game?
Part of the difficulty many have with this system is learning to think...
* Unless the adventure gives you alternate ability checks then the standard would apply. Of course, any lore skills that apply would have a lower DC than a general skill check as GM Lia pointed out. While it's possible to change the difficulty of checks based on other skills being applicable it complicates GMing the game which is what PF2e tries to avoid. If the module lists alternate skills etc. then so be it, but we're trying to stay away from judgement calls when possible. The system allows for that. Adayil knows about all kinds of spooky stuff, but not much about undead. Other party members are probably better for that. This makes working as a group important again... "Hey Alorea what do you know about that thing"? is a free action.
* Skill is only underused in Pathfinder 2e, in individual games. You guys could take a lot more advantage of skills but tend to act first and think later... :-). We can review after the combat... but the teamwork broke down immediately in the battle, as everyone defaulted to "5e... I'm the hero mode and did what they do best instead of what was best for the party.
You can use Archives of Nethys to answer some of your questions...
Detect Magic: Detect Magic
Interestingly though Detect Magic is a two-action spell it can be utilized in exploration mode like a magic radar.
Read Aura: Read Aura
* I have your character profiles, builds in Pathbuilder, and a cheat sheet so while it's nice if your pluses are in your post, it's not required. I usually look anyway to see if you have a more appropriate roll... so to simplify things... yes you state what you're trying to recall and I'll make the secret roll and apply the best bonus.
* There is no "History" roll in PF2e, but I usually default to "Society" about people of events, and "Crafting" about items. Other knowledge skills can also apply... for instance I might use "Nature" to recall that there was a flood 160 years ago in the valley that concealed a network of caverns.
* If you have an applicable LORE: Skill it's always a lower difficulty. You've invested a skill spend to know this kind of stuff. As Lia stated the specific not only is for character background but can show up in unexpected times.
* I could see Lore: Warfare being used in larger scale combats for initiative... but with few ambushes and surprises it's really not something that's going to be used a lot for that purpose. More for giving bonuses when discussing unit tactics, or [i]history of wars and battles as you suggested.
@ Caks... Skeleton is still up (Boy is he resiliant), and I can do your actions now... since Telurion is probably not going to be involved in this particular battle.
NOTE: Hiding ends when you become observed. So if you move before you strike him you become observed... thus no precision damage.
Hide
If you successfully become hidden to a creature but then cease to have cover or greater cover against it or be concealed from it, you become observed again. You cease being hidden if you do anything except Hide, Sneak, or Step. If you attempt to Strike a creature, the creature remains off-guard against that attack, and you then become observed. If you do anything else, you become observed just before you act unless the GM determines otherwise. The GM might allow you to perform a particularly unobtrusive action without being noticed, possibly requiring another Stealth check.
Yes, please do my actions.
Sneak says "Success You're undetected by the creature during your movement and remain undetected by the creature at the end of it." (Emphasis added)
Undetected says "When you're undetected by a creature, that creature is off-guard to you"
@SB: thanks for the insights also. I’d be interested (in review, after the battle) to know what Skills we might have used, apart from Recall Knowledge, and how this contributed to “the teamwork breaking down”. Unless you do mean RK to work out the fiddler’s weaknesses etc…
From my perspective, Lil successfully blasted a bunch of skeletons right off the bat, but then seemed to run away from the group into trouble (chasing the fiddler?) and was downed, possibly by Reactive Strikes?
Given the enemies are literally popping up out of the ground all over the place; a “friendly” (Rufio) decided to be a) initially in need of saving and b) then a right fool and has to be accounted for; and the fiddler is also moving all over the place quite quickly, I’d say we are pivoting OK from round to round.
From my experience, sticking together and using flanks is optimal where possible but in this combat its all a bit of a movable feast.
I moved into AoE position, took a reactive strike along the way, and was dropped when SB had that great round of monster rolls, which I knew was possible when I made my dash to get into AoE positon.
After Alorea got me up, I tried to get into position to help the nearest ally each round.
While we have spread out some in the battle, that is because SB has been playing the monsters more mobile, which, IMO, is good. It's too easy to fall into the previous edition trap of base-to-base slugfest in a game where mobility and flexibility are much easier to pull off.
Sure, it's nice when you can keep flanking up all the time. There are downsides to that too, though. Like you'll be in a nice, easy, line, for all the line spells out there.
Or, you'll be basically stationary, reacting to what the enemy does.
Now, that's not bad. It can make encounters more dynamic and interesting, but it can also devolve a fight into something chaotic as well.
Also, given that we have had:
1. The zombies in the store;
2. The shadow;
3. The claws at the gazebo;
4. The skellies at the signpost;
5. The fight at the Councilor's house; and
6. This massive battle
..without a single 10-minute stop to refocus, first aid, etc, and that we are level 1, what we are doing is amazing. It's even more so since our fighter has been enfeebled for the vast majority of this!
I also think that both Alorea and Adayil have done a great job of resource management through all of this.
As for Lil, herself, she is playing much differently, and much more active, than I envisioned when making her. Of course, that's the difference between white-boarding something and actually playing a character, the game and party influence so much. If I were going to remake her, I think I'd go single gate Air, as it seems to fit her a little better, but I'm happy with her build.
Also, two side notes re: Caks. With a nat 20, the -2 for making non-lethal into lethal on the punch is irrelevant, and so deciding it was lethal was a good choice both for us and for easy bookkeeping. Also, I think Caks would have had sneak attack, since if you rule that Hide ends the second the person moves, then you can never get a Stealth sneak attack and that seems off to me. But, I could easily be wrong.
Yes, please do my actions.
Sneak says "Success You're undetected by the creature during your movement and remain undetected by the creature at the end of it." (Emphasis added)
Undetected says "When you're undetected by a creature, that creature is off-guard to you"
You are correct. I missed the "Sneak" in the description of observed actions. It didn't affect the results this time as you failed the sneak and killed him anyway... but I'll try to remember this. Another reason using the action icons helps.
◆ Hide
◆ Sneak
◆ Strike
This is easy for me to quickly analyze.
Lil. You are correct that using sneak should have allowed the precision damage. I stated that in the above post. I think the clarification of the stated action from stride to sneak (Which is half movement) will keep any confusion out of the equation.
As far as remaking the character I always allow my characters to make any major changes before advancing to 2nd level. As you said when you whiteboard things the sometimes don't play out as we suggest so feel free to adjust when we level up.
This applies to everyone including allowing class and race changes. After we reach level 2 only the "retraining" downtime rules will allow changes.
Going to address the disarm action here as well. Adayil has it right you either need a free hand or a weapon with the disarm trait... and it is athletics check against the reflex DC of your opponent. Here's where it gets tricky.
Unless you crit the disarm action, they retain the item with only a +2 to any future attempts to disarm. You still need that critical to remove the item from their hands. They also take a -2 to any attacks... but the opponent can take an action to "Regrip" the item and end that bonus/penalty. In 2e originally this penalty only lasted till the beginning of their next turn... but in remaster it lasts till they take an action to regrip.
Disarm is not very powerful except in certain circumstances and there are both rogue and fighter feats at later levels that strengthen it, but that's not necessarily a bad thing. After all, almost all PC's use a weapon which would allow monsters to disarm them where a lot of creatures don't have things to disarm. What's good for the goose is good for the gander.
As far as Sunder goes... it still exists and is pretty easy in PF2e because there really aren't rules for it. You can simply say... I'm attacking the fiddle. I might make a small adjustment to the items AC especially if the creature is actively trying to keep you from doing so, or the item is small or partially concealed, but you can just say I'm attacking the fiddle. All items have AC's, saves (if applicable), Hardness and HP, so attacking the fiddle in this instance is probably more efficient than trying to rip it from her hands.
@ Telurion... I will give you an opportunity to change your actions with the provided clarification if you wish. I'm about ready to wrap this combat up and move on.
Yes, please do my actions.
Sneak says "Success You're undetected by the creature during your movement and remain undetected by the creature at the end of it." (Emphasis added)
Undetected says "When you're undetected by a creature, that creature is off-guard to you"
You are correct. I missed the "Sneak" in the description of observed actions. It didn't affect the results this time as you failed the sneak and killed him anyway... but I'll try to remember this. Another reason using the action icons helps.
◆ Hide
◆ Sneak
◆ StrikeThis is easy for me to quickly analyze.
Yep, have to agree, the narration of Caks sneaking was hard to parse initially. After the rules explanations from both of you, I went back to Caks post and indeed, “sneak” was in there but not “◆ Sneak“ as a tacit combat mechanic/Action.
@Lil: No problems as far as I’m concerned. Didn’t mean to come across as being critical, just stating the facts! ;) Like I said, you’re initial blast was awesome. And, yes SB has been rolling wildly.
Yep, i’ll attack the fiddle instead. I’ll do it on the play side.
I did not take it as criticism. I was just explaining my thought process and the timing of things.
Okay. Now that you guys have figured out how to end the effect, I would call the battle if you guys don't mind. With the hardness of the fiddle, it could take days of posting to destroy it, but the end is inevitable. Between keeping her down so she can't do her fiddling jig, and persistent attacks on the fiddle I can end this encounter and move on if you guys wish. Otherwise, we can keep playing this out. Let me know???
Also, after I award XP and move on the next part of the story I'll probably try to reset OBR a bit as it's a bit cluttered with multiple entries into the Game.
Telurion (8) times
OSW (5)
Alorea (5)
I would be ok with a summary of the rest of the fight and moving on.
Not because I don't like the fight, I think it's been really fun. But, we are low-level, and it would only take a little bad luck with new undead every two rounds for someone to die.
If the majority of the group wanted to play it all out, I'd be fine with that.
I’m good with summary.
I would be ok with a summary of the rest of the fight and moving on.
Not because I don't like the fight, I think it's been really fun. But, we are low-level, and it would only take a little bad luck with new undead every two rounds for someone to die.
If the majority of the group wanted to play it all out, I'd be fine with that.
The fact that she can't summon new undead without her Fiddling Jig pretty much ends summoning new undead. I'll wait to hear from one more to give a majority then move on.
Summary, please.