Times were hard, and the local barons sent their prospective heroes to participate in "The Gauntlet". A brutal test of resourcefulness, ingenuity, toughness and combat prowess. Those that survived would be blessed, trained and equipped for the Underdark. For the prophesies of old DEMANDED an attempt to redeem the vice, greed, and failures of the elders.
This is a Grimdark OSR game. Players will be level 0 peasants and teenagers going through a brutal rite of passage to be heroes. Requirements are a commitment to posting once a day on the weekdays, a knowledge of the Shadowdark rules, and a good backstory for a character that you cannot grow too attached to. Character death will be a real possibility, but you will be given the opportunity to start the career of a new adventurer.
I will be choosing an initial five to go through the recommended Gauntlet, a 0-1 prequel for a potential long-term Shadowdark campaign.
Applicants please describe your old school roleplay experience, your familiarity with the Shadowdark system, and a link to your longest duration game on these boards as a player and extra bonus points for a link to a long term game as dungeon master. Bonus points if this is an old school game. Some completed the Entire Cult of the Reptile God module with me, but I don't know if any are still around. I believe DMs should be rewarded with priority seats in games.
If anyone would be willing to GM in a living Shadowdark world, please indicate this. I will be creating a small settlement and dungeon to start. I would like to play at some point.
Dotting!
Thank you for getting the ball running on this one GM Tribute. I started my RPG journey with BECMI around 1990, so that is my 'truest to form' OSR experience, as we went through several of the D&D B line adventures with it. Sometime after I became our groups' 'forever DM' and spent many years behind the DM screen for AD&D2e, mainly with Planescape .
More recently, and after several years spent playing PF1e, I discovered the OSR 'movement' and it made perfect sense to me, as PFs bloat was already starting to grate on me (nowadays I would only consider PFS Core games, or anything VERY close to that) - of the 'retroclones', I only have first hand playing experience with OSE, S&W and DCC (though this one is slightly more complex, and it isn't perhaps a retroclone per se), but have been reading up on almost every OSR game system I manage to get my hands on, including more recently joining a game using D&D Rules Cyclopedia.
I never played Shadowdark, but I have perused the PDF more than once. I like the fact it seems like a collage of good ideas pulled from many other OSR rulesets. Smart!
My longest lasting campaign on these boards was definitely JZ's Carrion Crown - COMPLETE!, and I am very proud to say we actually completed the AP! Amazing set of players and DM - it was a great experience and taught me a lot about what a PbP needs to survive.
I unfortunately do not have such a track record in DMing - managed to complete the first part of a Darkmoon Vale campaign, in a PbP experience with my usual TTRPG group, and also an intro adventure in the Frog God Games Lost Lands, with an amazing cast of characters. That one fell through, and the responsibility was on me - just got overwhelmed with it. I definitely do not think PF1e lends itself well to PbP.
Hopefully as I delve deeper into the OSR, I find a system which does not suffer from the rules bloat which is pushing me away from PF1e, and at the same time makes it easier to play and run PbP games. Maybe Shadowdark is the answer :)
Until I am confident I have found such system, I am extremely conservative with taking up DMing again - it is easier to get overwhelmed, and soon you find yourself unable to do any of the things you have committed to. Not saying no to DMing, just need to be 100% sure I have the bandwidth for it. What is your idea for the 'Living Shadowdark World'? Do you have a unifying idea in mind? Would you be ok with having a patchwork of adventures/ideas picked from different settings/game systems?
There, I think I already wrote too much :P
As for a character.... I think I have played many different types over the years, from Bards to Zen Archers, Wizards and Paladins. I tend to like serious, grim personalities, and that kinda prevents me from playing the 'smart-ass' character types like minstrels and bards which think they are funny guys, or halflings like Tas. It is a limitation, I admit it.
The Gauntlet will not be random, just a level 0 run. There is a notable theme.
PCs will not be evil or “chaotic” the old school equivalent.
Each player will control three level 0 characters and choose amongst the survivors.
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Players are level 0 and start with an ancestry. They are promising commoners that get to run the guantlet. Think of the games in the latest D&D movie.
DWARF
Brave, stalwart folk as sturdy as
the stone kingdoms they carve
inside mountains.
You know the Common and
Dwarvish languages.
Stout. Start with +2 HP. Roll hit
points per level with advantage.
ELF
Ethereal, graceful people who
revere knowledge and beauty.
Elves see far and live long.
You know the Common, Elvish,
and Sylvan languages.
Farsight. You get a +1 bonus
to attack rolls with ranged
weapons or a +1 bonus to
spellcasting checks.
GOBLIN
Green, clever beings who thrive
in dark, cramped places. As
fierce as they are tiny.
You know the Common and
Goblin languages.
Keen Senses. You can't be
surprised.
HALF-ORC
Towering, tusked warriors who
are as daring as humans and as
relentless as orcs.
You know the Common and
Orcish languages.
Mighty. You have a +1 bonus to
attack and damage rolls with
melee weapons.
HALFLING
Small, cheerful country folk with
mischievous streaks. They enjoy
life’s simple pleasures.
You know the Common
language.
Stealthy. Once per day, you can
become invisible for 3 rounds.
HUMAN
Bold, adaptable, and diverse
people who learn quickly and
accomplish mighty deeds.
You know the Common
language and one additional
common language (pg. 32).
Ambitious. You gain one
additional talent roll at 1st level.
Sounds great, have you seen my PM to you GM Tribute?
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I have been told I should take everyone that wants to play. I would like this to be an RPG elite experience. Doomed Hero in his guide suggests not taking everyone in a recruitment or you will have a bad game. I have found this to be true in practice.
The video below says RPG Elites do not play with anyone and everyone.
I do not plan on playing with anyone and everyone, but I will play with beginners.
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Never came across that channel - definitely some stuff in there I will be going through.
I took a look at the two videos specifically on 'playing with anyone and everyone' - they make sense of course, but I have to say I found the 'Soloist' really interesting - it is something I have seen more and more over the years, right here on the Paizo Forums.
Not sure if this is happening because nowadays it is extremely common to play by yourself in PC RPG games, phone and/or tablet games, etc (I know I do it). Or maybe because the rules bloat allows diverse characters (which is a great thing), but also allows several combos who can play several roles at the same time, maybe switching between 'loadouts' or sets of abilities/bonuses from one day to the next.
Or maybe there are other, social reasons for this. But the fact is it feels common nowadays when people create their characters, they do not think of how those characters can cooperate with the group they are in, both mechanically and RPwise, to make the game an enjoyable experience for all. The focus is very strongly on their own characters and 'schticks'. Heck for example, I can't remember the last time I was in a game where two different characters would select a Teamwork Feat - most are simply concerned on using their Teamwork feats on their own (using pets or whatever) instead of with others in their group, which could make sense in a PFS environment where you do no know what other characters you will play with, but not so much in a longer game.
/rant over
Dotting.
My Old School experience was from 1982 thru to 90's playing D&D Basic/Expert then AD&D. Ran through Dragon/Dungeon adventures, TSR and White Dwarf & Imagine magazine materials. Mix of home-brews set in Mystara and Greyhawk were my stomping grounds of halcyon days.
Latterly I've played PF1 (via 3E/3.5) and some 5E here on the boards as RL gaming came to a halt about 15 years ago. Discovered PBP and never looked back.
Longevity of games - I've been a player in one of the longest running games here on the boards:
Cap'n Voodoo's Freebooter Campaign (Est 2011)
Played GM Rutseg's Shackled City AP to a finish, so as a player think I'm well suited to the long haul.
GM wise I've run an PF1 KM that I finished too soon and an Iobarian Saga conversion of some old school UK scenarios that also reluctantly came up short due to RL stymieing my efforts.
Overall I love the collaborative process and have been incredibly fortunate to have had some imaginative and fun dancing partners over the years and games here on the boards. Hope to continue that and while my GM'ing focus will be on the Night Below conversion to Shadowdark I'm happy to contribute and see the system in action.
Or maybe there are other, social reasons for this. But the fact is it feels common nowadays when people create their characters, they do not think of how those characters can cooperate with the group they are in, both mechanically and RPwise, to make the game an enjoyable experience for all. The focus is very strongly on their own characters and 'schticks'. Heck for example, I can't remember the last time I was in a game where two different characters would select a Teamwork Feat - most are simply concerned on using their Teamwork feats on their own (using pets or whatever) instead of with others in their group, which could make sense in a PFS environment where you do no know what other characters you will play with, but not so much in a longer game.
/rant over
Think this is the crux of it Albion - the Shackled City game I was in was an excellent example of collaboration - GM Rutseg picked concepts and players, then the Discussion thread was fleshing each players pitch out together. Made for a great character building experience (both in terms of crunch and fluff). We also complete Ash's Guide to RPG Personality as part of character generation and that also helped flesh out who these characters were. Defo plan to use this in my forthcoming games.
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Definitely interested. I believe you know most of my history as we've played online and in person in the past.
I've been playing since the Basic D&D box set back in about 1977 and have played or ran multiple versions of Old School gaming even when it was new school. I've ran DCC, Swords & Wizardry, OSRIC, Castles and Crusades, and most recently Worlds without Number with varying degrees of success. Most work good in the early stages, but I have a group of players that will find any flaw that breaks the game and expose it unbalancing things.
I Have been playing on the boards almost since the beginning and am in the same long-term game as Black Dow. (Since 2011) Waves.
I played Shadowdark yesterday and found it to be simple and really fast paced in combat which was great. I LOVE the magic using characters rolling to see if they keep the spell or not so they're not helpless after that first spell goes off.
There are a couple of fiddly things we noticed during play but for the most part I was very impressed. The biggest drawback was starting out with 1 or 2 HP at level one. We almost had to go back to town after every encounter because our 1-hp cleric kept missing the heal roll and having no healing for the day. If I ran, I might allow max HP at level one. I also found out the luck point mechanic was used more than in any game I've played with a similar mechanic and the PC's tended to share them freely.
As far as running a game, I'll keep an eye out for how this one goes. My challenge has always been integrating maps which hopefully won't be required in this type of game. I find that most of the ones that fail are due to trying to run the "wargaming" type of combats during an online experience. The visual effect of sitting at a table with others and interacting with them real time is difficult to duplicate on the slow-by-nature PbP.
I agree that most "modern" games become more about building characters in a vacuum and people tend to "play their concept" instead of building a functional team. That's why I was pleasantly surprised at the sharing luck points mechanic that happened yesterday with a traditionally "self Aware" team of players. One of the main reasons I have moved my "real life" games to Pathinder 2 is the fact that if you build your character in a vaccum in that game everyone will die...
The "Living Shadowdark" world is also very attractive to me. I get tons of ideas for things, but don't have the bandwith to create a whole setting at this time. (Retirement Looms :-)). It would be fun to have an area to develop for adventuring that tied in with a common world.
Over in GM Tribute's other Thread the hopeful beginnings of a Shadowdark game is coming together. If interested in playing please follow the link and let us see what we can do.
This is the background for my piece of Shadowdark I started in gameplay.
The Barony set up the Gauntlet. A brutal day of games to entertain the masses and sort the wheat from the chaff. The survivors formed the core of those who would be trained further as crawlers. Long ago, crawlers were called adventurers, but adventurers explored ruins and crypts because they had a choice. After the Sundering, exploring the Underdark was not a choice. Those who went into the Underdark were known as Crawlers. Crawlers were legendary figures who trained to go places and do things on the enigmatic direction of the Barony. They were tight lipped and intimidating, and the townfolk gave them a wide berth.
No one would want to be a Crawler voluntarily, but each lord often picked those in his employ to join the gauntlet. These decisions were based on merit, jealousy, and a host of motives that were not always pure. But each lord's word was law.
Now you find yourself in the Gauntlet. No time to worry about anything but surviving the day. Survival did not allow you to return to your friends and normal way of life -- no, it made you a Crawler!!
(Waves back to Scran)
Great intel on RL play of Shadowdark mate. Curious how you all found the torch/light mechanic and the countdown...
Think I mentioned in a previous post feedback I got on the Shadowdark Reddit & Discord was to run down the torchlight either on a set weekday or set number of Crawling Rounds.
I do plan to introduce some house rules when I run Night Below so the HP feedback is duly noted.
So do we roll stats for 0 level character s or just pick an ancestory?
Players are level 0 and start with an ancestry. They are promising commoners that get to run the guantlet. Think of the games in the latest D&D movie.
DWARF
Brave, stalwart folk as sturdy as
the stone kingdoms they carve
inside mountains.
You know the Common and
Dwarvish languages.
Stout. Start with +2 HP. Roll hit
points per level with advantage.
ELF
Ethereal, graceful people who
revere knowledge and beauty.
Elves see far and live long.
You know the Common, Elvish,
and Sylvan languages.
Farsight. You get a +1 bonus
to attack rolls with ranged
weapons or a +1 bonus to
spellcasting checks.GOBLIN
Green, clever beings who thrive
in dark, cramped places. As
fierce as they are tiny.
You know the Common and
Goblin languages.
Keen Senses. You can't be
surprised.
HALF-ORC
Towering, tusked warriors who
are as daring as humans and as
relentless as orcs.
You know the Common and
Orcish languages.
Mighty. You have a +1 bonus to
attack and damage rolls with
melee weapons.HALFLING
Small, cheerful country folk with
mischievous streaks. They enjoy
life’s simple pleasures.
You know the Common
language.
Stealthy. Once per day, you can
become invisible for 3 rounds.HUMAN
Bold, adaptable, and diverse
people who learn quickly and
accomplish mighty deeds.
You know the Common
language and one additional
common language (pg. 32).
Ambitious. You gain one
additional talent roll at 1st level.
@Scran: Both. Roll stats and pick an ancestry and then roll for a background.
• Stats
• Choice of ancestry
• Hit points equal to their Constitution modifier (minimum 1)
• Background
• Choice of alignment
• Starting gear
Are we in the process already? Don't want to jump the gun like last time. Or will we wait for some sort of pre-selection?
Also for the level-0 character rolling, are we doing the re-roll if we don't get at least a 14?
After selections, I will roll for you all in one big thread. I think Dejoker may want to get something going first and I didn't want to "steal his thunder". I will get the world background sorted out more and put in the gameplay.
I need to build more world background and give the OSR guys a chance to get their hat in their ring. Then we can work on some backgrounds.
This is going to be a combination of Hunger Games, Torchlight, Gloomhaven, Maze Runner, and other backgrounds thrown together in a Grimdark fantasy world.
So GM Tribute does this mean you are officially starting your game.
Also folks, I am officially starting my game, and since I did not get a choice from GM Tribute nor are they using either I will be using the concepts from both the Village of Hommlett and the Keep on the Borderlands to start. However, yeah a sort of forced situation as well, since not doing so does not make a tremendous amount of sense.
The group will start out in Gorgana a sort-of Penal Colony located in an extreme location where trying to get back to normal society is truely suicidal as one must cross the Great Vast Wasteland.
The Great Vast Wasteland is an extremely inhosipitable place that would easily kill an individual either by its extreme environment by itself, if one did not consider the hostile creatures that are very hungry for vital prey that exist within that area as well.
Still within Gorgana rumors abound of a means to get to a better place or acquire items that would allow one to transverse the Great Vast Wasteland. However, so far no one has, that anyone knows of, accomplished either feat. As such, PCs come from subsequent generations of the original outcasts (not all of whom were villainous in nature) deposited here. The cavarans that deliver subsequent outcasts to the community also receive in trade whatever this isolated community can muster. Of course the trade rate is completely unfair, but at least whatever local resources that cannot be generated do come in from time to time. As such, items only obtainable from the outside are extremely pricey and those that have established a local source are making a killing and are very intent on keeping their advantage.
Yeah Gorgana is not an overly friendly place, especially for those who excel, but it basically completely swallows up the mediocre or less. So will you excel and attempt to gain footage or limp along and be used by others?
I am officially starting my recruitment. I will allow more time for applicants to trickle in and build a small part of a world.
I am building a settlement and a megadungeon. Inspiration: Hunger Games, Torchlight, Gloomhaven, Maze Runner.
I may watch some Shadowdark vidoes of gameplay. Seems arcane library the devs have a few out there.
The simple three deity pantheon of the Barony
Madeera has the laws of the universe and the original covenants she made with the first men written upon her skin. Her brother Memnon has dedicated his eternal existence to rend these laws from her skin and destroy the world as we know it.
Ord the Unbending also known as Ord the Wise tried to intervene at some point by forcing Madeera into the Heavens, and Memnon into the depths of the Underdark. He and his worshippers believe there must be an equilibrium between the lawful and chaotic natures of both these powerful beings to preserve the world as we know it.
Inhabitants of the Barony have found serving one of these three deities can come with power and favor. The previous baron worshipped Madeera and advocated for putting their hopes in the goddess of Law. After a generation the eldest son has put the Barony's future in the hands of Ord. The Gauntlet was conceived by the new clerical advisors as a way to fairly advance knowledge, magic and an understanding of the secrets of the Underdark.
Rather than you are at 0hp so you are dead.......
I am leaning to go with the Grimdark official dying rules.
Death Timer. A dying character
rolls 1d4 + their CON modifier
(minimum 1 total) on their turn.
They die in that many rounds
unless healed or stabilized.
On each of the character's
subsequent turns, that player
rolls a d20. On a natural 20, the
character rises with 1 hit point
OR to a lesser extent a more dramatic way
Death Timer. The DM secretly
rolls (1d4-1) + dying players CON modifier
(minimum 1 total) on the players turn.
The player will die in that many rounds
unless healed or stabilized.
On each of the character's
subsequent turns, that player
rolls a d20. On a natural 20, the
character rises with 1 hit point
I like the randomness from the 1d4+CON modifier timer.
Agree - creates a degree of jeopardy, a mechanic to roleplay the extent of the wound and a (slim) chance of survival lol.
Before the Sundering, the Barony was part of a larger kingdom. The Baron had sworn allegiance to the King, and the King ruled by divine mandate keeping the covenant with Madeera.
Now, with the Barony effectively isolated, the Baron ruled under the mandates of the Priests of Ord. Under the Baron was the lords who owned land and swore their allegiance to the baron.
The majority of people in the Barony, the other 98%, did not own any land or property. The landless, although not officially property, were effectively subject to the laws of the lords they served under. Some lords kept a strict set of laws that the church of Madeera had passed down. Others, with the change to Ord, decided to improvise and pass their own laws that seemed to serve their self interest.
You are one of the Landless also known as peasants. You serve your lord, and your lord has sent you to run the Gauntlet.
We played with the "Death Timer" rules last weekend... but it wasn't a secret roll. The player rolled the d4. I actually kind of like the secret roll better.
That introduction immediately brought scenes from Monte Python's series of fantasy movies to mind. Pick a peasant... any peasant. Perhaps a muck farmer.
Or a cat beater or a water flogger or uh...
First to make it easy Common equates to Human.
Further to keep things fair and the races more balanced the Halfling's get one additional common language found on page 32 which consists of: Human, Dwarf, Elf, Giant, Goblin, Merran, Orc, Reptilian, Sylvan, and Thanian.
Meanwhile the Elf only gets Human and Elf but their Ability expands to: Gain +1 Bonus to Attack and Damage rolls with Ranged Weapons or a +1 Bonus to Spell Casting checks.
While the Half-Orcs are just Orks (aka they are no longer half as there is no Half-Elf so need to halve the Ork race either) and their ability is as follows: Gain +1 Bonus on Attack and Damage rolls with Melee Weapons or a +1 Bonus to Spell Casting checks.
This way each race gets two languages and one ability and with those minor tweaks the abilities do seem to be fairly balanced.
Note: GM Tribute may not fully agree with these so please wait to find out his stand on these tweaks.
Also the official application thread is HERE -- I did try to connect it to this thread but was not able to do that still the game I am running does have a link back to this thread but in time I will copy all the character creation information over to the Campaign tab.
Well thought out changes. Thanks for the application thread!!
I am interested in playing this game. I don't have a lot of old-school gaming experience, but I am currently DMing two different games of Dungeon Crawl Classics. Have only been doing so for a few months but I am really enjoying it so far and would love to be on the other side as a player.
I DM on these boards more than I am a player, but I have been active for seven years and have run several Pathfinder adventure paths in 1st and 2nd edition to their completion. My longest games have been about five years or so from start to finish. I haven't read the Shadowdark rules yet but I am a fast learner! :)
Thanks for your interest Brainiac.
DCC as a system intrigues me — if only the foundry module was half as good as PF2E!
Okay Brainiac your first step in this thread is to roll dem bones, then move on over to the Discussion thread to chat with the players to figure out what is being played and how your character attributes can best help the group survive.
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Okay Brainiac your first step in this thread is to roll dem bones, then move on over to the Discussion thread to chat with the players to figure out what is being played and how your character attributes can best help the group survive.
I thought this game was going to start with lvl0 characters created by GM Tribute? :O
Maybe it's in the wrong thread. I asked for clarification in the other one. :)
Okay my post was in error and I would delete it if I could so please just ignore it and my apologise for the confusion.
I think we have five interested so far in the Guantlet, a brutal prelude to a Grimdark megadungeon.
I am still constructing The Guantlet, but it will be similar to "The Games" in the latest D&D movie.
Eee ghads hungry displacer beasts, mimics, gelatinous cubes and we are but 0-Level uh ?? food ??
I am watching some of Kelsey's Shadowdark videos. Trying to prep and learn first.
The always keep initiative is HORRIBLE for pbp. Players get input daily, so holding the game up daily for a single player check in will NOT happen.
I will be trying to keep a block initiative (ALL PLAYERS) then (ALL MONSTERS) where possible to keep combat flowing.
The torch timer is a fun mechanic too. Reminds me a bit of darkest dungeon.
I actually bought a hourglass on Amazon to track this torch burning time. I also use it in PF2 to remind me to give out hero points every hour. I like the players to use these points and always forget to give them out, so I decided to base it on time playing. Seems to work so far.
Also for PF2 I came up with something to reward Natural 1's in combat. Instead of using the Critical card deck I simply remove one of their three actions either this round or their first action the next round. Not for all critical fails... just if you roll a 1.
Also, working on an escalating encounter method, based on danger level. to use when the party decides to spend multiple 10-minute periods sitting around healing and recharging.
Like the system a lot!!! (Sorry to get off topic there. I like Shadowdark a lot to. One system for crunch... one for simplicity.
Well scranford while the hourglass method sounds cool it obvouisly will not work for PbP play, so any suggestions on how to convert that over into a more PbP friendly method?
Your Natural 1 in combat idea seems to be an interesting solution but I will need to examine the Critical card deck a bit more before buying fully into it. As it might be good for FtF but not so good for PbP. Further the more gritter approach to combat usually helps a game like this especially when doing PbP.
Look forward to seeing your escalation thoughts. Can you make sure you have the concept split into your FtF vs PbP versions, if necessary that is.
Hey GM Tribute as far as I know you have not hit me up on Discord yet for the Discord Server I am creating for us and other future GMs that want to join in.
Okay GM Tribute while straight up as it was described I concur with your thought on keep it in Intiative to not be such a good idea.
However, for PbP this is kind of something I at least do as I do want all the players to have input within a scene but I also do run that a bit loosely as well, aka taking the play it by ear as she suggested and expanding that a bit more than she does. Still, the game is in FtF fairly rigidly timed as you have literally a hourglass sitting there denoting how long the torch light will last and the players only have a limited number of torches.
Now while her idea of using one timer for multiple torches would be something I would definitely use in a FtF setting, I do not see it needed within a PbP as it is not as necessary since the GM just tracks each torch in the Round section of their post such as:
Torch-2(rear): 60/30
Character-1 HP 5/5
Character-2 HP 5/3 -1 To Hit
etc...
Thus the spoiler section (which will mostly be copy/paste tweak) will be something that players can reference for the current status of all things within the game but this game is going to be slightly different for PbP play since it is very round based and a Turn is 10 Rounds and that means it chews up 1/6 of a Torch and as such should only be used under very limited situations. As such, each time a GM posts it should be 1 Round (aka 6 seconds of time), or a few rounds if just doing something like waiting, traveling a long passageway or the like.
Still the GM should be updating posts almost daily -- or whatever the agreed upon posting rate is to be for the game. Such as daily Mon-Fri (except holidays) or Sun-Sat (except holidays or pre-posted exempt days). Personally I can post nearly everyday without to much incident (although I do have unscheduled RL stuff happen) but I am aware not everyone can (and/or may have unscheduled RL stuff happen) but still if each post is considered a round (or few rounds for purposes of speeding repetitive stuff) then that should be again fairly easy to track. Remember 6 seconds is rather short amount of time, where yeah a lot of stuff can happen but even dialogue PC A says something and NPC responds could reasonably take 1 round, however, I would be willing to consolidate dialogue to the PCs say something (whoever wants to put in some input) and then the NPC(s) responds to be considered 1 Round and thus would update teh Round Tracker
Thoughts GM Tribute and scranford
@DeJoker: I've investigated the torch timer for my own PBP game - discussed on Shadowdark reddit and consulted on Discord.
General consensus is either have them extinguish one a set day (works best when all players are in same time zone) or have every 4-5 Crawling Rounds effectively be 15 mins of a Light Source consumed.
For my Night Below game it'll be the latter.
Okay Black Dow that is a method but not one that coincides with any regular version of Rounds/Turns and is something I would be quite uncomfortable with.
Basically a typically Round is 6 seconds and 10 Rounds is typically 1 Turn or 1 Minute and the method you propose extends that out so that technically 24 to 30 seconds equals 15 minutes which is a major consumption of time. This would then mean that a simply combat round would take approximately 3 minutes 45 seconds to 5 minutes to conclude within game time which seems absolutely absurd and definitely does not follow the basic paradigm behind the Shadowdark guidelines. Thus IMO would destroy some of the major integral aspects of Shadowdark's paradigm.
Of course, we can agree to disagree but I would strongly suggest you contemplate this a bit further about how this would dramatically and detrimentally affect the over all paradigm outlined within the Shadowdark game.
I personally see no harm in (or even reason to change) it when it comes to PbP. Sure PbP is slow by nature, but clicking away rounds while characters are adventuring and using up critical resources (torches) seems like something PbP can handle quite succinctly. One can always fast foward, skipping several rounds if nothing eventful happens. For instance, the group stops to rest wanting to take 10 minutes to recuperate, the GM rolls for random encounters per the round determinator for that time in that area. If no encounters occur, the GM simply fast forwards the game 10 rounds in their next post and the group moves on. Otherwise the players are operating in Rounds while adventuring, which is a major paradigm of Shadowdark and the destruction of which I feel greatly and detrimentally affects the overall feel for what the game designer was shooting for.
Now perhaps you were trying to make torches be an extremely limited source. Well an easier way to do that is to say a torches do not last 60 rounds but instead, due to whatever in-game reason you are using, they only last 10 rounds. This would bring back in the more pressing limited resource idea without breaking a major paradigm of the game. Aka there is more than one way to skin a cat, but yeah sometimes the method used renders the hide useless and really cannot be called skinning at all.
Lastly just because a bunch of folks think its a good idea to jump off a cliff with a parachute does not mean doing so is a good idea. One has to contemplate the wind dynamics and where the powerlines are and other various factors as any of those could cause you to get killed.
Further if you would like to share the URLs to these sources where these discussions took place I would be very interested in seeing the reasoning that these folks put behind this, IMO, very bad idea. Perhaps none of them have worked at designing quality games and are just applying non-well-thought-out ideas in a hatchet job fashion to something they are not fully understanding. I have ran into that before. Adjustments to an existing game should take the whole game concept into mind when making those adjustments to make sure the adjustment is not destroying the basic balance and definitely not destroying any of its basic paradigms that are critical to the game. That is unless it is fully understood that the carefully well-thought-out change is removing a specific major element for a specific reason. Still I see no specific reason for taking 6 seconds and turning it into over 3 minutes as it nets nothing positive.
Look forward to hearing your thoughts as well as seeing those URLs
Oh and are you planning on joining our Shadowdark PbP collective?
@DeJoker: Noted.
Crawling rounds are written are when characters are not in combat. They are exploring, talking, and engaging with the environment.
A turn is a player's moment to describe what their character does to the GM. Players act one by one on each of their turns.
A round completes when each person has taken one turn.
Some turns need a bit of room to breathe. A character who is speaking with someone can make a few reasonable exchanges back and forth.
So could be a minute... could be longer... which brings me on to:
TIME PASSES (also from rulebook)
Every moment in the game doesn't have to be accounted for in real time.
For example, if the characters want to spend 10 minutes examining a room from top to bottom, the GM and players can agree that time passes. When time passes, the GM and players move any timers down by that amount.
This more freeform approach is what I'm alluding to. Resources will still be tracked but not in prescriptive sense. I'll use mine for drama and tension at the virtual table.
So there's the rub. You mistakenly apply combat round rationale to my apparently absurd proposal. You also mistakenly talked to me like I'm an idiot with your lengthy expositions and over-usage of paradigm. First one is forgivable, second not so much. I could go on but I'm here on these boards to enjoy myself and creatively collaborate not spend time and energy on a futile back and forth.
And to your final question on your collective: No thanks I'll pass. Think I'll just go hang out with the folks with zero understanding of game design but who can answer queries courteously and constructively.
Regardless best of luck in your gaming.
Okay Black Dow well have fun I guess, my apologise if you felt insulted as that was not my intent. However, in case you have not fully left I will continue.
Now I tend to state things in black and white and if in doing so you felt I was ridiculing you directly, you are wrong. The concept on the other hand I was opposing, but I usually detach concept from the specific person as the two in my mind are not synonmous.
As to whether they are called Rounds or Turns or Widgets or Thing-a-mabobs that is rather irrelevant to me. I specifically outlined what I was talking about and rather explicitly as well. So your presentation of those guideline quotes were rather meaningless to discussion of the concept as whole.
What I did was point out the fallacy in the concept and you countered with basically nothing (okay a bunch of bad assumptions of how you think I think which were all wrong). Now I even proposed a potential solution and that you again responded to with nothing of content, you did not even mention it. Skipping over that solution as if it had never been stated. Now yes, you can attack me to try and divert the arguement away from the concept being discussed, as many politicians do that rarely get anything of quality done, but that is your perogative. However unlike you, I will not take that personally, mainly because you do not know me, and if you feel you must resort to those kind tactics I do not see us having a fruitful conversation anyway. So that kind of response is like water off a duck. Now me, I perfer to look at the concept, the facts associated with that concept, and, if applicable, point out the pink elephant when it is there. Now again, I am sorry for you that you seemed to have taken my criticism of the concept so personally, but then again that is your perogative as well.
Now I did notice that you supplied no URLs (aka facts) to these so-called sources that you were mentioning to perhaps add credibility to the poor concept that you were presenting. Which says to me, they probably do not exist, especially with how you responded to my post by seemingly directly attack me and no comments at all about the concept that was the center of attention. As previously stated, trying to shift the narrative to hide the lack of a quality arguement for the concept.
Now back to the brass tacks, the basic concept as I see it is Players act then the GM acts, whatever you want to call that exchange is totally up to you, I personally could careless. However, I do care about perverting the concept of time.
By limiting a Torch to 4 or 5 exchanges (which in-game time is supposed to represent about 6 seconds of time unless its an extended thing as I outlined previously) means you are warping time and as I said instead of warping time why not just simply restrict a torch to a much lesser amount of time. This is the counter-concept I was presenting that you chose not even address but instead chose to make a slew of assumptions about my intentions that were basically flat out wrong. I grant you, that my post might not have been -- very diplomatic -- but again I tend to be rather straight forward, blunt and to the point when pointing out the pink elephant in the middle of the room.
Again as I have done more than once, I will once more apologise to you if how I presented my case was offensive to you, as that was not my intent -- I just as I stated -- tend to say things rather bluntly but in my mind you the person are not you the concept and it is the concept that I am speaking to directly and not to you the person. Heck for all I know you may be a stellar person with many great qualities and all I was interested in was what I felt was a ridiculous approach to solving some sort of situation that was not even clearly defined. I think I even sort of asked in a round about fashion what it was you were attempting solve by using that concept you had presented but no comments on that front either.
Finally, I hope you will not just take your bat and ball and go home, as perhaps we can sort this out like adults. You present the reason for the concept or what problem you envision that needed to be solved by this concept you presented and then we can go from there.
I would still be greatly interested in seeing these other discussions that led to this rather odd solution to an unperceived issue within the game system. I have to think, that brainstorming group, if they actually exist, had something they felt was wrong that needed to be fixed but that is still a mystery.
Hope to hear from, and if I do not happy gaming.
Is recruiting still going on here?
Kind of. Mostly I see people being driven away…
It wasn't the intent to drive people away but to encourage people to try Shadowdark, but if that is the case, I will halt world building for now.
OSR games haven't had many recent successes on these boards. Maybe it is better left up to someone else to carry the Shadowdark torch. And yes, carrying the torch in Shadowdark is an important duty.
It does turn out there are some great Gauntlets written for the game. If anyone wants to run one, count me in. Feel free to grab any content I started to make in gameplay--I was going to start simple.
It wasn't the intent to drive people away but to encourage people to try Shadowdark, but if that is the case, I will halt world building for now.
You didn’t drive me away, Chainmail. And don’t let me stop you.
OSR games haven't had many recent successes on these boards. Maybe it is better left up to someone else to carry the Shadowdark torch. And yes, carrying the torch in Shadowdark is an important duty.
I don’t think it’s an OSR thing per se. Times are tough. There are a lot less games of any kind. I’m not seeing a lot of unusual attrition. As for the torch thing, I think I ultimately decided Shadowdark wasn’t for me. The “torches/dark” stuff feels like a forced schtick I’m not personally interested in. Coupled with the shenanigans of crossposting threads and general confusion and then shared worldbuilding and rotating GMs….it all became a nogo zone for me.
Personally I think you’ll do better if you stick to established settings so people understand the boundaries of what the world is. Something that is shared, a story in a world we share an understanding of, not sharing making something new whole cloth. At least with the established settings you pretty much know exactly what you are getting, warts and all. Take all this with a massive grain of salt. I’m salty, terse and acerbic. I like what I like and I don’t budge a whole lot. But as Black Dow said, or to mangle his point, I’m too old to play games that don’t meet my personal needs. I’m all for sharing a story, but I can’t do that if I’m ultimately unhappy with the premise,
It does turn out there are some great Gauntlets written for the game. If anyone wants to run one, count me in. Feel free to grab any content I started to make in gameplay--I was going to start simple.
I played in Brainiac’s exceedingly well run DCC “funnel”. I decided it was ultimately exhausting running more than one character. Gauntlets don’t really excite me either. So yeah, again, not your fault.
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My two cents, coming from a father of four:
DJ, basically what you offered Black Dow was "I'm sorry, but here's why what I said and how I said it was ok."
I think that, after seeing this back and forth, I'm going to back out of the Colony game. Too much of a Rules Lawyering thing in Shadow Dark for my taste.
No hard feelings, folks. Everyone plays their own way.
Happy Gaming.
No problem Darvin but yeah that pretty much summed up what I said -- Truth is truth and just because I do not paint it in a pretty palatable manner does not make it not Truth -- so yeah I usually state the Ugly Truth but my intention is never to attack an individual but address the false content being presented.
As for rules Lawyering, I did not understand that comment at all. So far we (the GMs) are just trying to settle on a viable state of play that fits more than one GM's style. Also I never look at them as rules to me they are and will always be Guidelines.