Hey, this thread didn't pan out. Let us learn from it.
Brainiac seems to have done a great DCC funnel--Sorry I missed it. If I ever do one I will check that one out. Keep me in mind for future OSR games.
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This one didn't either
We had a good thing going, and some great discussions, but the game never even got off the ground unfortunately... I blame it on the DM.
Well Albion I hope you were kidding about blaming anything on any specific individual as frankly no one specific person is to blame and no one did anything wrong. When pulling a volunteer team together it is extremely important to set quality expectations and see if those who stated interest can mesh with those expectations or if those expectations need to be adjusted based on feedback from the volunteers.
As such, we had some folks show interest (aka volunteer) but very few showed any willingness to either mesh or communicate what they would need in order to mesh.
RPGs have always been a two-way street but oft times it becomes a one-way street either because the DM (which this thread had none of actually) is a dictator-type or the players (which this thread was completely composed of) were unwilling to provide the necessary input in order to get things to mesh.
Aka no harm no foul on anyones part -- as no one is required to proffer information on what would help things mesh for them.
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I was the DM for that game.
Okay however again I am hoping you were joking ;) as RPGing is, as I stated, a two-way street and requires cooperation and input from the DM and its players and in my experience the communication from players to DMs is rather weak to non-existent most of the time. This means that DMs often have to fly blind and without instruments. A recipe for disaster and basically means the DM not only has to be highly skilled but rather lucky as well to avoid the inevitable crash and burn.
But I think it advanced the discussion of what OSR games were popular with the player base.
Definitely a good thing to do.
Shadowdark is just one of many.
Bumping this thread to hopefully help reduce confusion.
I have been told I should take everyone that wants to play. I would like this to be an RPG elite experience. Doomed Hero in his guide suggests not taking everyone in a recruitment or you will have a bad game. I have found this to be true in practice.
Having been playing PbP since the early 1980s and I have found that trying to get a better pool of players has the about the same chance of success of taking everyone as they come and creating a queue of interested players. The more recent usual experience is that about half to a quarter of the players that state they are interested will move past this point and work on creating a character. Of those that actually create a character about half to a quarter of them will not continue on to being part of the active game. Of those that go on to become an active part of the game about half to a quarter of them will disappear within the first 3 months.
This general overview applies to every game whether you are running a contest -- aka he who makes the best character gets into the game that really is not worthy of running a contest -- or not running a contest and taking everyone (in order of application then more importantly in order of character created) and letting everyone know who has made cut and who has not. Then be perfectly honest with the rest that they are in queue should someone vacate a spot.
To help you all see this in action, I created a game that had initially about 12 interested folks of those about half actually created characters. I got overtime an additional 6 applicants. When it came time to start the game I had 2 in queue and 6 players. Shortly there after I had no one in queue and about 4 or 5 players. I opened up recruitment again. I lost another player, and gained 2, and then a 3rd. The game is currently running with about 5 to 7 players. With a few that have been with the game since conception.
So what am I saying with all of this -- frankly the disrespectful nature of running a contest which strongly implies you are saying: Are you good enough for my game -- which often is not even the case as the game does not even warrant that level and thus disrespect players for conceited reasons which are then white-washed with excuses like -- I want to have the best chance that my game will succeed -- which if that were the case the one running the game would work to be the best Story Teller that they could be rather than a lowly dm who can barely run a game and has to disrespect their players in a hopes they get players that will bolster their lame game.
Additionally if you are a great ST (Story Teller) or even a lesser GM (Game Master) word will get out that you run great games and you will have numerous applicants wanting to join your game. Giving you ample bodies to replace those that flake out which always happens even if the person is a usually strong poster -- as sometimes RL life happens. I am in a game where, extremely sadly, one of our better players died -- luckily the GM was informed of this but it left a rather large vacant hole in our small group of players and now we can only hope we can recruit another player or two to join in the fun. Until then we will make the best of what is, as that is how PbP usually goes.
Occassionally, you can get a rare group of players together but this is truly by happy happenstance and never really do to engineering (aka running a contest) as you must find a group of players that can/will commit to the long haul, gel well, do not have any RL issues that suddenly interfere, and you are running a story that capativates them. Literally none of those parameters can be pre-engineered because there are simply far to many unknowns. Just as many games that have been successful running a contest have been successful as those not running a contest. Further just as many games running a contest have failed as those not running a contest. Again this is from experience in PbP since the early-1980s and the only thing that has really changed is the ludicrous concept of running contests. As we never used to do that, we took folks first come first served and worked with them to make great characters and then if a spot opened up we looked to our queue or looked for another player.
Lastly what am I trying to say -- do not lie to yourself -- running a contest is disrespectful regardless of your so-called reasons (aka excuses) for doing so. Just take everyone that applies, then focus on those that actually create characters letting them know they are accepted as soon as their basic character is created. Then step above being a DM and at least be a GM and work with each created character to help meld into the game you are planning on running as well as morphing your game to fit the PCs you are getting. This means you can never ever run a module verbatim which is what DMs do. Those kind of games are going to usually fall flat faster than a game run by a quality GM and defintely much more often than a game run by a quality ST.
Final Note: If you are unsure of how to elevate your game from DM to GM to ST (which I am still working on) PM me and I will do what I can to give you help in that direction. BUT let me assure you that running a game requires more effort than just playing in one and if you are not willing to put forth the necessary effort do not even bother as you will only be disappointed in the end results.
A GM or ST MUST have perserverance and stamina in order to take each game as far as it can go which is largely dependent on the group of players which is far to often just pure dang luck.
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I’m not sure those that run a recruitment where they “choose” or “select” certain characters and/or players is conceited, nor a contest. Most of those I see are where the DM is choosing a cast of characters that they *think* will mesh well together to try to shared-tell the story they want to tell, and the players they *think* will also a) work well together and b) be able to have the character put forward tell that story.
From my own experience, players run the gamut in interest in: hack’n’slash, beer’n’pretzels, court intrigue, planar hijinks, light tactical combat, monty haul, heavy granular strategic combat, recipe completion quests, romance, kingdom building, gnomes, boss fights, and about a bazillion other probably also cross-pollinated concepts.
*They aren’t all going to gel*. Even if you tell them the tone of the game and the campaign setting and the available modifiers to each and every aspect of the game up front. So people try to select for success, with varying degrees of that success. If you don’t like it, don’t apply.
But start throwing around words like *disrespect* and *conceited* and you’ll get plenty of blowback.
As I said, we all have different ways of playing RPG’s. If someone offered to “work with me to make a great character”, my eyes would glaze over faster than you can say conceited or disrespectful. Which is an incredibly back-handed way of throwing your insults back at you. Because our own thoughts aren’t “correct” or the “right way”. They are our thoughts, which are relative to other thoughts, and can be perceived about a infinite number of ways. You aren’t “right” about this. No one can be “right” about it. You have an opinion, and no amount of categorising DMs, GM and ST’s or opining about how long you have been having opinions makes them anything but that.
You’re railing against the tide. Just let it flow over you, and find the other kids on the shore who want to build castles like you do, or go for a swim and find an ocean full of possibilities. They are both awesome opportunities, and valid and full of wonder.
Except for gnomes.
Next the only worthy reason to run a is because the game one is running is worthy of running a contest. Aka the award for winning is worthy of the contest being run. However, as I have stated this is rarely if ever the case.
This is mainly because quality GMs and STs have no need to run contests as they are quite confident in what they are running will be able to hold the interest of quality players and all they have to do is wade through the non-quality players until they have a full crew of quality players. Now grant you even with a group of quality players RL may intercede and that GM or ST will need to search for more quality players but that IS the nature of PbP and always has been.
So tell me Oceanshieldwolf why would someone run one of these when the following two facts exist?
1) Running a does not guarantee you that the game will be successful any more than not running a will.
2) Not running a has about the same chance of success as running a .
So if running a and not running a have about the same chance of success/failure what is the purpose of running a . The only element left is -- aka my game is all that -- or some equally deplorable aspect of human nature. Further it is irrelevant whether the individual recognizes this or not, much in the same way that ignorance is not a legal reason to break a law.
Regardless running of a means the dm is disrespecting their potential player base as they are requiring them to jump through proverbial hoops in order to qualify for some mediocre game at best for absolutely no quality reason.
Also remember I stated quality GMs and STs do not need to run as they fully respect their player base and know that running a is in nature.
So in short, whether you choose to acknowledge it or not the concept of running a -- aka an arbitrary meaningless selection method -- is basically a imposed upon the potential players by an unworthy dm.
But start throwing around words like *disrespect* and *conceited* and you’ll get plenty of blowback.
Great I welcome blowback, as I am quite confident in the Truth upon which I stand. A Truth I have defended for many years without a single individual being able to provide a single shred of evidence to disqualify the Truth upon which I am standing.
Further what many do not even bother to ask is why do I take this stand, especially if it is seemingly so unpopular. Which btw is something you also did not bother to ask yourself. This just tells me you are totally in the dark and arguing without a shred of evidence to back your position. Which I might add is extremely typical, and something that the conservative Churches do likewise in their condemnation of RPGs and those that play them. Another untruth that I have riled against in the past and will still do if it rears its ugly head.
If someone offered to “work with me to make a great character”, my eyes would glaze over faster than you can say conceited or disrespectful.
Now Oceanshieldwolf I am a GM/ST that believes in working with my players to make a great character and if you do not believe me just drop into my Dreadfulness in Dunwich game and see what transpired between myself and a new player to my game. For I in fact worked closely with this player to create hopefully a great character that they will have a lot of fun playing. Further, that is not the only one that I have done this with, as I have been doing this for years. In fact a few years back I met a player from one of my games that I had ran at least 10 years prior and they remembered me because I helped them make the greatest character that they had ever gotten to play. Which to me is one of the main reasons I run games, I want folks to have the kind of fun I had when I first got into rpging and to me that means helping them make the best character both mechanically and aesthetically as possible and then running a game that is tailored to the PCs. Aka this means I never run a cookie cutter module as they can never ever be applied to any group that might be created. I will use them as a base but that module almost always quickly morphs into what the group of PCs I have will have the most fun playing.
Next you are free to think throwing the Truth (aka what you call insults) back at me is going to have some effect, but let me assure you it is not. Since doing so on your part is absolutely meaningless and as such is like hurling feathers at me, aka completely ineffectual.
Again you misconstrue what I have said, mine are not merely "thoughts" or the "right way" what I state is the Truth with a bit of exposition. I simply chose the word to cover a myriad of other equally deplorable reasons and as for that one is UNargueably a pure Truth whether you choose to recognize it or not.
Now I agree with your statment of no matter how long -- because frankly that is totally irrelevant -- what is relevant is I did the research and I know the facts while you do not and you are just blowing smoke to try and disguise that you have absolutely no facts to base your stance upon just pure unadulterated and in this case meaningless opinion. Go get some facts and then we can talk until then your words are simply hot air on a hot day, totally unnocticeable.
As for rallying against the tide of evilness, you dang straight I am and I will be doing so until I die. As that is all manner of wrong and I do not care how insignificant it seems to you. To me it is as bad as a major crime. Further I am fully aware of the ocean of possiblities I am also aware that there is a wide highway of lies that leads to hell but only a narrow path of Truth that leads to heaven. So while there is a vast amount of postive opportunties there is also a vast amount of negative opportunties and I rile against folks that choose those negative opportunities and then choose to inflict them upon others for any reason.
Okay as for "Except for gnomes." I can only assume this is some hidden joke of some kind and that you do not know one should capitalize a proper noun. ;-)
Look forward to your response, hopefully it will contain something of substance rather than just opinionated hot air.
Lastly, I hold no contempt for you, I am only refutting your comments, as you might be a stellar individual that I could be fast friends with. However, that has no bearing when it comes to my speaking out against comments that are false in nature, whether intentionally so or not.
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Okay, I have to chime in because what you say you do and what you do are two different things.
Link to where I started asking questions to build a character for your Dunwich game for context.
@DeJoker: I first took some of your replies as being nervous about derailing the game or causing a disruption in the party. I tried to put your mind at ease and I wanted to make a character that was tied to the world that you'd set the adventure in. All the while I was reading the gameplay thread and then the discussion thread. When you said that you don't like running borderline heroes and that I needed to make them "more heroic" after seeing how you act and talk to others, especially to people you don't agree with, I decided that I couldn't be a player in one of your games, so I bowed out.
It was how you acted in GM RelicBlackOUT's recruitment for the Reign of Winter game he wanted to run that showed me that I couldn't play at the same table as you either. You kept acting like I was ignoring when I stated quite clearly what I was looking for to move someone from dotted to complete. No one asked me to do it. I took the time to do it because I liked seeing what others come up with and it's a nice gesture to take some of that off the GM's back. You seemed to take it as a personal affront that I didn't move you on your word that you had everything figured out. I checked, you didn't post between the last time I looked at your character's profile to see if you'd posted his background and when you posted this masterpiece of passive-aggressiveness. All you had to do was politely let me know that you'd posted your background and I would have updated the list and nobody would have dogpiled on you for being a ass. I can't read your mind, nor, despite appearances to the contrary, am I on the boards 24/7, nor was I privy to any of the details of the conversation between you and the GM. And to be perfectly frank with you, I'd been clear since you first asked about what my criteria were for changing what category your submission was under on that list. Zona hadn't met those criteria. I even told you as much when it happened.
I really wish the last post you left in my recruitment thread for the Price of Immortality was still around, but it appears it got flagged and removed. It was such a perfect encapsulation of you true character, claiming to not be petty, then turning right around and saying that "[I, AdamWarnock,] was lamely trying to help." You'll deny it, I have no doubt, but that one was too perfect to not remember. I just wish I could still link to it.
So no, you're not a good GM or Storyteller or whatever else you want to classify yourself as. You're a toxic player, a self-aggrandizing troll, a conceited, hypocritical, control freak that I pray never has anyone new to the hobby at one of his tables because I can't think of a worse fate for someone who is playing for the first time than to be exposed to the dregs of the hobby. I've been blessed to have only run across four people that I could not sit at the same table as over the 12 years and 30,000 posts I've made while playing on the boards here, and you, by far, are the worst one.
If you find that no one wants to play in one of your games or have you in one of theirs, you only have yourself to blame.
Oceanshieldwolf, I must vehemently disagree with you on one (and only one) point... Gnomes.
Gnomes are a guilty pleasure, I infrequently enjoy...
Other than that, you are spot-on.
Next this IS something I put up front and never hide, and denote it as a requirement in a game that I am running. Thus each game specifically and clearly states that I am running the heroes and if you do not want to play a heroic character you should go else where. Thus had you even bothered to read the outline for character creation you would have known before applying however obviously your self-centered personality would not do such, since I mean heck you are all that and more. Here's a quarter, you should call someone (if you can even find someone) that cares.
Still I am rather used to getting folks like you that want to play the opposite of what I am willing to run as if they are entitled to play whatever they want regardless of whatever anyone else is not comfortable with running. You just one of those cases, still unlike you I was willing to work with you to see if I could help you tailor one of these character concepts into something a bit more heroic but you apparently would not have it and so you left. To me that is not a loss, as in my experience players like you are usually a major waste of time sooner or later. Still I, unlike you, give everyone a fair chance to prove me wrong. So far, you have held true to the mark.
Now I am sure you have many excuses and other forms of half-truths about why you did not join, but yeah I think the basic truth is you wanted to play something I had explicitly said up front I was not going to run but you did not choose to read that before you applied. That upset you so you concocted some other exuses (skim of the truth chocked full of lies) to make you feel better about why you left and why you are doing what you are doing now.
Further setting boundaries that every player has to abide by IS NOT the same thing as running a not by any stretch of the imagination which is what I have been riling against and by making this post (as well as your previous comments) is something you fully endorse. Thus you choosing to outright TROLL me in this post is frankly no surprise. Its part of you mental make up, which is rather sad. As most very negative folks like you are rarely happy with their life, because they are not truly happy with who they are, whether they choose to admit that to themselves of not. Which you probably do not, since by yoru post you are obviously not mentally mature enough to tell yourself the truth about yourself.
As for you ignoring me in that game, you did and you kept falsely posting my status because you simply were NOT aware of my status because you were not the GM. Which is extremely rude but you did not seem to care. Further you so claim that all I needed to do was do something that I had already done but you still took it upon yourself to annoint yourself king while you were basically not even close to that status. For while you were just a player and claimed you were just being altruistic, in reality you simply being self-promoting and basically self-centered. I have seen your type before, you are nothing new. You were basically declaring that you knew everything about everyone but you did not and could not because you were NOT the DM. Still I am sure you like to think you are in charge of the games you play in, doing things so-called altruistically to make you feel more powerful. Oh and I will not deny that I stated that you were lamely trying to help which is really rather a nice way of saying what you were actually doing. So unlike you I do not lie about my intentions or my reasons.
We can mitigate that by looking at player histories and seeing if they stick with games or if they fade out after only a few posts. Then there's building a cohesive group who's stories can mesh well. Going first-come-first-serve makes it more likely that you'll wind up with a group of players who may ghost the game, who don't have characters that mesh well together, and who's PC's arcs don't form something cohesive.
Again I will point out that folks with these kind of excuses (which are just the skim of the truth chocked full of lies) have absolutely no facts to back there claims. Especially when the facts actually show that running a and has no more chance of success then taking first come first served. Further you base all of what you know on a few years of gaming? Really? Is that it? Heck I beat you by 4 times what have acquired and I have done extensive research on top of that. I do that so that I can better understand the beast that you cannot even begin to comprehend.
I have seen them come and I have seen them go, I have ran/played with super quality players as well as abyssmal self-centered players. I have even met folks like you before, your no big deal. Yeah ooo 12 years, compared to what well over 40 years in my book, 30k posts a mere pittance as I have been playing PbP steadily since about 1984 and have logged well over a 200k posts easily. Truth be told, so many posts that it would be impossible to actually know for sure. Still I am pretty sure you keep a close eye on your count, as most self-centered self-agrandizing folk do. As that is what is important to them, not the quality of those post just the quantity. I on the otherhand work on my writing skills, and try to make quality posts as much and as often as I can. Is every post stellar no, but if the game is inspiring then my posts tend to elevate in quality.
So no, you're not a good GM or Storyteller or whatever else you want to classify yourself as. You're a toxic player, a self-aggrandizing troll, a conceited, hypocritical, control freak that I pray never has anyone new to the hobby at one of his tables because I can't think of a worse fate for someone who is playing for the first time than to be exposed to the dregs of the hobby. I've been blessed to have only run across four people that I could not sit at the same table as over the 12 years and 30,000 posts I've made while playing on the boards here, and you, by far, are the worst one.
So you finally fly your true colors, showing just how deplorable you are. Again I knew this almost from the get go based on the characters you wanted to play. Further all your baseless claims do is show who you truly are because the truth is everything you sling at me is simply a true reflection of who you are. Basically a very negatively oriented self-centered person with probably very few if any redeeming qualites.
As for me and new players, most of them really enjoy my games because they are fun and they are dynamic and they are aimed at the characters the players are playing and not some cookie cutter train ride which I would guess is about all you could even run, that is if you have ever even ran game as that probably takes more imagination than you would be capable of mustering, well except if you were only running an unimaginative module train ride.
Now I would like to return the favor and say your the worst I have ever encountered but frankly your not. You are just basically the run of the mill self-centered lame folks that show up from time to time. As I said, I have met your type before, and I know I will meet your type again. Your just sadly a drop in the bucket of badness and thus rather insignificant in the grand scheme of things. I will meet far more better folk than you and those are the folks I focus on and remember.
As for that last statement, I am running two games on here and a couple of games on another board and those that are playing seem to be enjoying themselves quite nicely. I am mentoring a GM to help them elevate their game and this is not the first individual I have helped either. As for being accepted into games, I have been successfully playing I think 4 games for quite some time now and those that I role play with seem to like me just fine. Its just folks like you that do not like me because you do not like to hear the Truth about yourself as you are so deep into your own lies about yourself that you feel offended when someone points out your pink elephant and boy is a big one.
So yes ALL the games I have ran with ALL the players I have had over the myriad of years I have been successfully running games, and ALL the myriad of games that I have played in to their finish or until the GM disappeared (some of which I picked up the reigns to so the other players could still have fun playing their characters) -- I am happy to say that I am to blame for all of that and will continue to gladly take the blame for creating enjoyable games for others to play in as well as role playing quality characters that others find enjoyable to role play with.
You on the other hand, I cannot say what your legacy will be, I already have players that talk foundly of me and the games I ran for them years later long after they moved on in life. Then there are those that will foundly recall a character I played along side theirs and the fun we had. Now if I were even half of what you accuse me of being none of that would have every happened but it did and it still does. You on the otherhand will eventually not even be a bad memory, just one of the many low-end individuals I have met over the years and forgotten as there was nothing of quality to remember about them.
Note I noticed you did not bother to spoiler your rant because well why respect the other players out there. Especially since you have already stated you do not care if you disrespect them anyway.
Oh and nice alternate account there AdamWarnock just had to pat yourself on the back -- so typical.
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@DeJoker: how does a spoiler protect anyone? If you want to rant in a non-performative fashion, just send someone a PM. I’ve played games here on the boards where folks spoiler’d some Elf language, and I actually didn’t click on the spoilers because my character didn’t speak Elvish. But this discussion doesn’t seem like something people are going to not check out.
Now, not having read your spoiler to AdamWarnock yet I did want to say a few things. Unbeknownst to you, I had already read your Dunwich posts with Albion and Djack/Hassan Ahmed in your attempts to craft for them an interesting character/class. And I will tell you I thought you did a really good job both in terms of being able to tinker with the mechanics of meshing classes together and being able to compromise. So well done. But assuming that I hadn’t is just that. An assumption. And you seem to make an awful lot of them.
Then there was the “rowboat incident” in your own game that led to the exit of one of your players and the apparent frustration of another as you almost willfully and with great obstinacy refused to accept their assertions or even understand the basic premise of their irritation. You seem to have a knack for getting upset, and railing against people, concepts and ideas. It seems very fundamentalist, and fanatics are necessarily blinkered by their own fanaticism. I should know, just look at my intractable inability to accept gnomes without portmanteau names as anything but ridonkulous standins for Tas.
And Djack was very good at accepting your aid and has gone on to play a very fun grippli ranger/rogue analog I’m sure. But your methods and ideas won’t be for everybody, nor is there any reason to think you can’t improve your ability to compromise on more than just game mechanics. There is a saying that goes along the lines of “If one person you come across is a jackass, maybe they are a jackass. If another person comes along is also a jackass, aybe they are also a jackass. But if almost every person you meet is a jackass then just maybe, you are the jackass.” Not everyone who disagrees with you is wrong.
Your rant at Deathquaker in another thread is a case in point. A player who is a longstanding stalwart of both the forums and the PbP scene here on the boards, has been a moderate and generous individual and a credit to herself and the forums. .You belittled her, called her names and put words in her mouth because she called out your behaviour. Those aren’t the actions of an upstanding and kind human being, nor someone who believes that truth should be capitalised as Truth.
Now I’m going to read whatever it is you said to AdamWarnock. Because I can.
Thanks for the compliment.
Okay I am assuming your are speaking about the player who was outlining how they felt my game style should be. Where they were not being completely clear and yes I had (and I believe I admitted at least eventually if not openly to them in PM) did not initially understand what they had been outlining. That being said, as sad as it was they did get frustrated with me, which I will admit happens, and chose to leave and I was sad to see them go. However, good things did come out of that exchange, or at least I hope they are good things.
I have only riled against one thing and that is folks that choose to subject their fellow players to disrespect. No other concepts, no other ideas, and only other people that are either being disrespectful to their fellow players or are attempting to bully me into silence.
As to this one concept, I find it completely deplorable. Now am I diplomatic about that in my approach -- nope. As I am not a diplomat. I have always been horrible at sugar coating the Truth. Yes a spoon full of sugar helps the medicine go down, but if you have no sugar you still need that medicine.
As for my methods and ideas not being for everyone, that is 100% true. However, I do not lie about them, I do not make excuses (just another form of a lie) about them, and try to present them as is. Now you have seen perhaps just one of my success, but I have failures as well. Still when I fail I simply try to learn from it, then stand up, brush myself off, and carry on.
Well I might compromise in a game, and I may compromise on some things in life, but I will never ever compromise on the Truth. It is not an option, in my book. Yeah I know, lots of folks do compromise the Truth, but I know to well its true value and will not waver on that point.
As for your analogy of the jackass, that is nice but to that I simply say most of the folks I come across are not jackasses. Further, I have more successes in that department than I have failures. Now many of my life long friends have told me, when they first met me they thought I was a jerk, then once they got to know me they understood that I was actually a good person that simply had a rather rough exterior. Or something to that effect. Now that is Truth, which is not soemthing one wants to hear about themself but it is what it is. So while its not the best way to be I have come to accept it and just try to do my best to mitigate it when I can.
Ah well I cannot speak to what you are speaking about when you bring up Deathquaker as I do not dwell on negative things. However, I am going to assume they were defending or trying to defend the concept of contests and how that disrespects the players. Or they were trying to subtly bully me into being silent on that topic.
Oh by all means read what I wrote to AdamWarnock because you choose to which is your right.
Also I will point out had AdamWarnock wanted this to be private they would have taken it there, themselves but they felt his was their chance to grandstand and considering their personality perfectly understandable. So instead doing it privately they chose to overtly and openly Troll me in their post. Giving me the labels that they own for themself, which frankly do not fit like they fit them. Oh and I do not suffer bullies.
Lastly I think you do not fully understand Truth which is not uncommon. As this world as done its utmost best to water it down so much that most folks cannot perceive it or get offended by it when they do perceive it. This Truth will just be a stumbling block to them, such that they will do their best to avoid and thus never understand it. It sadly is simply the way of the world.
Now as some folks have seem to wrongly assume, I do not feel that I am the best person or even a good person, I am simply a very flawed individual doing my best for the Truth. However, as I stated, I am not a diplomat so the medicine does not taste good.
Oh and nice alternate account there AdamWarnock just had to pat yourself on the back -- so typical.
You do realize that anyone who clicks on that alias can see who it belongs to, and it's not to me. Furthermore, I don't engage in sock-puppetry. I own my words, even if they turn out to be embarrassing gaffs. And anyone who even just starts looking at my account and stromraven's is going to see that we're not the same person.
I've said my piece. I'm not even going to bother reading or replying to whatever you said in the spoiler. It isn't worth my time.
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Good gracious! I'm a sock-puppet with 20k+ posts and tons of aliases? LOL! My hat is off to you Adam, I am a masterstroke of your sock-knitting skills. You even got a 'Goblinworks Founder' badge for your false-front. That is dedication. XD
But your best trick may be having ME apply to a game you are DMing - brilliant misdirection! No one will suspect I am a soulless avatar of your will.
Thanks for the laugh, boys/girls.
Of course AdamWarnock you are not going to read it (did not really expect you to) because your whole premise is based on complete disrespect of others which your previous post clearly shows. Further it is also why you tried to start a flame war by being crude and sharing your ugly piece of mind that should have just been thrown out with yesterdays trash.
Oh and sorry stormraven when I followed your other avatar that you used I noticed that specific avatar had only 2 posts to its name which seemed extremely convenient all-things-considered. It was late things get missed. Still it is really sad that you choose to support and thus be considered to have said all the extremely ugly things that AdamWarnock said as that makes you complicit in it and thus means you are someone who also believes in complete disrespect of others. Nice to know.
While all either of you can say with any measure of truth is that I speak out against those that disrespect others but then due to their stance they are not truly deserving of any respect and yet I still believe in some basic respect even to those that definitely do not deserve it such as AdamWarnock and now yourself stormraven. Still it is always nice to see behind the facade you folks put up and get a true look at the ugliness that lies beneath the surface as that just proves my basic point.
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That’s a very broad brush to be painting with… given I gave props to OSW (aside from our crucial disagreement about gnomes) and offered nothing about Adam. That said, their arguments do have some similarities so I won’t hold that against you.
However, the problem is your preferred ‘tool’ – the sweeping brush loaded with (largely baseless) accusatory statements. That’s the stock and trade of trolls or children trying to get a reaction, not adults engaged in honest discussion. So, there is no point giving your ‘arguments’ any oxygen (even those that have a kernel of truth).
That said, if all that you can do is lump me in with OSW and Adam… then you leave me in good company as, over the years on this site, I’ve found both men’s postings to be calm, measured, and mature. So, thank you for elevating me to their circle.
As for your conclusions about me…
I’ve been accused of far worse, by far better people.
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Take that back stormraven!!! I have amassed a large body of unhinged and almost completely inflammatory posts across a bunch of aliases. Just because I can be moderate and mature, nay…even handed does not a gentleman make!
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Sorry OSW, I follow the hallowed, time-honored chivalric code where rule #1 is...
"No BACKSIES!"
LMAO
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test... test test.
Well I guess stormraven be it a broad stroke or a narrow one, if the shoe fits, which it does quite nicely in your case as you seem to have very big feet, then I suppose you have no choice but to wear it or lie about it. Of those two, I am going to guess the latter as you seem to like lying.
As for it being "largely baseless" that is just another lie by you based on wishful thinking on your part as mine is based on facts. Which of course you never bothered to even ascertain what those are, and simply instead chose to assume that, like you, I do not base my statements on facts. Sadly for you, as I stated, I do base my statements on facts and not mere conjecture or pure opinion as both you stormraven and AdamWarnock so love to do.
So go do your homework, and get some actual facts, then we can compare notes and see how they stack up. However, I doubt you will do that because it is so much easier to make up lies and accuse others of what you are doing.
As for elevating you, that must mean you were in an extremely deep dark hole of negative thinking because bringing you up to AdamWarnock's fairly obvious (due to is more colorful post) sewer level thinking still leaves you in a very dark place and well below the "normal" populace.
Further I did not even mention Oceansheildwolf in our conversation so not sure why you chose to disrespect them and drag them into the mix with you, whether they would have done so willingly or not is of no concern, because it is the mere fact that you did that which simply goes to prove again your stance is complete disrespect of others because you are all that. To venture a guess though, I would gueses you did it to shore up your lack of facts to back your pure opinion seem factual. Basically the old: the more people you can drag in on yourside, you think that some how makes your lie true. However, lies will never be true no matter how many flies you get to land on it with you.
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The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
WB Yeats never disappoints.
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Wow!!!!!!
Let's quote some other famous people.
If you really want to do something, you'll find a way. If you don't, you'll find an excuse.
Jim Rohn
The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.
Edmund Burke
We are what we do. Excellence, therefore, is not an act, but a habit.
Aristotle
Criticism is something we can avoid easily by saying nothing, doing nothing, and being nothing.
Aristotle
Failure should be our teacher, not our undertaker. Failure is delay, not defeat. It is a temporary detour, not a dead end. Failure is something we can avoid only by saying nothing, doing nothing, and being nothing.
Denis Waitley
Corollary; If you never fail, you will never succeed.
Look at a day when you are supremely satisfied at the end. It's not a day when you lounge around doing nothing; it's a day you've had everything to do and you've done it.
Margaret Thatcher
Wow!!!!!!
I know! You have to admire Yeats' restraint. He used the fewest words necessary to cleave through pretense and clutter to expose the core of a subject.
;p
Yes perhaps Yeat does but then again that was just one precisely selected quote speaking to a single element within your passive/agressive post which you like to claim is what I do and as I stated, what you flung at me was simply you telling us how you are. Yeah I know you did it indirectly through a patsy so as to better maintain your facade but you were complicit. So while we can respect Yeat for their honest statment we cannot do the same for you stormraven
So I thought let us see what some other (perhaps debatably but I think not) better minds had to say.
Since you threw down the gauntlet on this page alone, you’ve exhausted 5500-ish words, roughly 9 pages of text.
I’m curious to see how long your tantrum lasts.
* Reads through the entire thread, blinks, feeling quite awkward, like when one watches grandparents from different sides of the family bicker over politics at Thanksgiving *
I think something is being missed here by Dejoker. I could be wrong, I suppose. But having a contest (I'm not bothering to do all the upsizing and bold letters...seems exhausting) for a game, so long as it's noted in the initial advertisement, is in no way disrespect. It's understood that potential players are offering ideas of what they'd like to play to see if it would mesh with the game the GM wants to run.
It's only if people are allowed to submit characters while expecting to be included, and then they are turned away, would I say disrespect is involved.
I'm not picking a fight with anyone. Just my two cents.
Well Salsa's Sock-Puppet (which is such an appropriate name for you actually but there is also another word that is used to outline what that implies but you probably are not aware of that word) I am not on a tantrum as you so passively-aggresively and falsely claim. Aka just yet another lie from you. However, I understand that you cannot comprehend what it is that I am doing, as it does not appear within the more negative regions of the mind where you have shown you like to reside.
As to keeping track of the word count, I find that actually completely meaningless because when defending a quality concept against cyber-bullies, such as yourself, I am just thankful that I can type as fast as I can as this means I do not need to spend much time proving how low you individuals are. Now due to your comment, I am guessing you use the hunt and peck method of typing which would make this seem quite a daunting task.
First GM Plastic Dragon your concept of submitting a character expecting to be included then not being included is not even what is being discussed. However, yes that would be rather blatantly disrespectful.
However I do concur with your concept to a point. For if all one is doing is talking about concepts and no one is required to create a character concept prior to being accepted into the game whereupon they (and hopefully the GM which sadly rarely happens anymore) then take the time to actually create a full character concept that melds into the game that is to be ran. That is not being disrespectful.
However, if the GM is saying I need to see your concept (full or partial) so I can choose the concepts I want to include -- that is still a contest -- aka can you make a character concept that is good enough for the game I am going to run (which again will most likely be mediocre at best since the really good games have never needed such a requirement).
So perhaps to make it clearer for those challenged by the concept, what should be happening if someone was actually of GM or ST status is:
1) A player says I would like to play
2) GM and player decide on a concept that fits the game and fits what the player would enjoy playing.
3) The GM helps the player create that concept so that it meshes into the world that the GM is planning on running.
--OR if the game world has not been created yet--
1) A player says I would like to play.
2) The GM helps the player to make a character that they feel comfortable with running.
3) The GM crafts a world that takes into account all the PCs so that the world fits them.
Note: During step 2 above it may come to either the GMs and/or the players understanding that what is wanted is not compatible and the process ends here. Still no disrespect happens, the player and the GM have put in equal effort to come to an agreement but that agreement did not materialize. No harm no foul. Not every player style matches with every GM style it happens but that is determined in a mutual exhange. Such as having a discussion about potential concepts prior to diving into actual character creation which happens after the player has been accepted into the game. However, this character concept process should be a mutual endeavor a sort of back and forth, the player or GM suggests a concept and they work together forming a concept together that works. However all that basically is, is taking step 1 and 2 and performing them before a character is created. In otherwords the concept is created jointly and then the mechanics are applied.
In neither case, above, is a player required to do anything prior to being accepted.
Further as I have stated more than once, there are no facts that back the claim that running a contest provides a better chance of the game succeeding. I have seen just as many of these contest games go down in flames just as quickly as those that do not run contests -- and -- I have seen just as many non-contest games succeed as those that require a contest. Lastly back in the 1980s we did not even have this concept of running a contest and we did just fine. Sure you lost players from time to time but continued forward.
Here is perhaps a novel thought for you nay sayers, it only takes two folks to make a successful game. I grant you its more fun with a few more players but a good GM and definitely an ST (which by the way I have not graduated to that status in my book so still just a GM working to be an ST) can run a game with but one single player and make it fun. I have seen this done and I have even participated both as a GM and as a player in a 2 person game.
So the basic question boils down to, do you choose to disrespect your fellow players and run a completely unnecessary contest or do you accept the players and work with them so that your game actually has the best chance of success.
Does this mean your game will be a success -- frankly no -- I have found nothing and I mean absolutely nothing does that. You can only improve the odds by helping your players make great characters that are integral elements of the game you are running and making that game as fun as possible for those players and presumably yourself. Big Note: This last element usually requires adjusting the game as you go which is why conducting a train ride through a module often fails.