For out of character discussions for Group 2.
Hey everyone. Should have an alias up later today. Excited to see this unfold.
Dotted into the gameplay, then deleted.
Putting together background and gear
Hello, team. Still ironing out Tibold’s details. I am thinking I may have to change Tibold’s background which would then also change up the build…still feeling it out. I’d be interested in some opinions, so expect a more illuminating post about it all when it’s not the wee hours of the morning (almost 3am for me at the moment!).
Hey, we have a solid 4, and Sean Reynolds says this balanced four should be able to complete any AP. But, I will try and get to six. Role play opportunties are exponential with the number of players!! It also allows us to have some attrition and keep the group going. Start an AP with 6 and recruit again if it drops to 3 -- I should have thought of this when I first started an AP.
We will hopefully get an antipaladin following an CN god, so he won't have any divine mandate to be evil.
Feel free to post and talk, compared to you, the other group are a bunch of Chatty Kathys (no offense to any Kathys, but it was a just saying).
I promise, I'll get there once I've got the character ironed out. Hard to do the roleplay or locale building until I've figured it out.
Originally, I had hoped there would be an archetype which leans into more of the idea the Alchemist is using his foes as research subjects for the next alchemical discovery, but most archetypes are more inward focused or so specialized they lose some of the class's adaptability. I kind of feel the class as designed is less about coming up with something new and more about increasing the potency of what already exists.
Nothing wrong with that, but it makes it harder to present the character idea I had originally been envisioning: conscienceless researcher who treats enemies and other inconsequentials as existing to use as experiments for his new compounds. My goal with the kingdom building was to make him start the first pharmaceutical business finding wonderful and effective medicines...rigorously tested on many unfortunate souls. Lol, See? That's why I needed the -Evil tag.
Anyway, I'm seeing if there is still a way to replicate this, but I feel like it would actually require its own mechanics/archetype which doesn't exist within the Paizo canon. I haven't checked any 3rd party, but since those aren't allowed, I'll likely have to alter Tibold's backstory and motivation. Might even take him out of the Evil camp for alignment. We'll see...
Isn’t a vivisectionist kinda close in flavor??
I feel like vivisectionist might work. I don't really see a lot of archetypes that impact other people, but there's a few discoveries that allow your extracts and whatnot to be useable by others. Those could work for the flavor you're after.
Vivisectionist isn't too bad, but Sneak attack v. bombs is also kind of a commitment for roleplay, so I'm on the fence.
What I had been hoping to find was something along the lines of Mad Scientist or First-World Innovator but with random effects to be inflicted on the enemies. Something that could also have generated mutations (temporary or permanent) would have been perfect. Basically, I was looking at the rules for fleshwarping and they talked about "heartless alchemists," but I haven't found any rules or archetypes that actually are able to trigger this aside from the 'ritual' described on that page. So no dice on anything for combat or short-term effects. Basically, these rules would only work for the downtime, secret lab stuff during kingdom building.
It's not a big deal. Just delayed my background development a bit. I will get it together and make some final choices soon.
Saorise is actually a Riverlands native-born, who recently left because the banditry game got a little too hot (possibly from the Stag Lord wiping out other bandit groups, and given the option of join or die she chose to leave).
As far as the kingdom building goes she's likely to look at them going in as agents of Brevoy has something temporary. Take the aid and the money, build something sustainable up, then boot the colonizers out.
She basically lives the river freedoms and is loathe to give any other nation any kind of control over herself or people like her, though she's not about faking it until it's no longer convenient
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Hoi friends, lets smesh some faces!
Oi, I wanted to talk about mah skillset!
I can swim ok, because drowning sucks, I am not actively blind, and can sometimes identify magics. And If I tell someone to piss off, they usually do, I am roigth and properly persuasive in this I tell ya!
In combat, you all line up behind me and shoot thing at them, and if they get close I hit em in the balls with a bardiche. I am real and proper gud at that.
Where the f*~! I come from? Sarkoris. Was a Merc there, for the hestra merc company, went freelance, had a terminal conversation over unpaid merc wages with an effing do-gooder, terminal for him that is, and decided to be elsewhere.
He looks at the rest of the party
Oi, so its me and 3 squishies? Eh, not the first time, ill manage
Possible build alterations:
--I could go natural attacker, but that would cost me the excellent fates favored + auspicious tatoo combo, and I think the party wants me to have a +2 to all saves.
--Steelblood is an option, that archetype is better at low levels, but loses defensive power compared to standard bloodrager later on.
--Dips and mutagenic mauler or fractured mind are both strong options on a Bloodrager
--I could be a primalist, but I dislike that archetype when playing ith actual humans, and it would only affect the build at level 8.
--Feat wise, after getting combat reflexes, power attack and furious focus I will probably go for stuff that fixed weaknesses, improved init, iron will, that sort of stuff.
--Due to auto enlarge on level 4, and access to long arm, I will be a pretty good area defender. I may swap my con and dex around, so that I keep 2 AoOs when enlarged.
No, it's really not the first time. This is Aris from that Wrath of the Righteous game that petered out before Christmas. Hi!
I haven't seen our antipaladin join yet, but he would make a second solid martial character, which isn't a bad thing.
Hi Elfriede, funnily enough that Viktor fellow was from the same merc unit as me, he was from the elite "Axe-effect"-batallion though, effing elitists who are gestalt, 2 background skills, a full feat tax system and a 25 point buy, always looking down on us rank and file grunts that spend their one level 1 feat on combat reflexes! But eh, them high fangled weabo-anime-protagonists never go the distance I tell ya!
I am starting to get the early texts in the gameplay thread ready so we can hit the ground running.
Selections will be complete 30 Jan and we will officially start 31 Jan. Feel free to jump the gun and start your "introduction" post if you want.
As we are starting where all good adventures of yore started, a tavern, feel free to let your hair down.
Group 2 is complete.
Please assemble here and talk some strategy. We are ready to post in the Gameplay thread. Probably some tavern chatting before the story begins.
We are shooting for one post a day in gameplay starting Tuesday, Monday is optional
Happy to be here all
Oooh, Brightberry is very excited to be here with his plantling (familiar) Refleaf. At low levels, Brightberry is our Band-Aid station, scout, information gatherer. Both he and Refleaf can become plants (Good for spying) and speak with plants (Good for information gathering as plants are everywhere!). At higher levels, I see some very interesting wild shapes in his future. As for Refleaf, I'm going to work on use magic device for him so he can be a wand wielder. A lot of the boards I've read urge me to have him go mauler archetype, but I'm uncertain. Opinions are most welcome on this.
Feel free to dot gameplay or begin in the tavern before the story advances.
Expect one to two months to level 2.
Good Question:
GM out of curiosity do you plan for the different tables to have any crossover? Perhaps merging tables down the line if folks drop out
Here is short WIT (What I'm Thinking) from your GM:
I will outline the master plan. In my initial interest check I mentioned the drop rate of PbPs can be high. My new formula is to start APs at six for PbP and recruit three again if the group drops to three. Why? I can encounter balance 4-6 easily and I personally hate to respond to recruitments for one character, two makes me pause, but getting three characters at a pause is probably enough to spark interest and make the recruiting worthwhile for both players and GM.
Seeing the lack of 1E pathfinder recruitments lately, I am hoping to take roughly the interest level of all 18 characters that applied, I hate to disappoint. If we lose 3 total from all 3 groups in chapter 0, I will recruit again. If we lose 6 total we will consolidate into 2 tables and move forward. I am also hoping to inspire some of the players to think about GMing their own 1E games, and will not be offended in any way if they decide to go 25 point buy and Elephant in the Room--but want also to show the old way (15pts feat taxes) works well too.
I currently have Remis as NG but, given the general...uh...leanings of the party I have no qualms about shifting him a bit.
Feel free to adjust or keep Remis NG and optionally shift during book 0.
I have no problem with future events shifting Remis' moral outlook.
NG might be kinda fun for this party. After all, we're not 'bad guys', we're just not the good guys. That could be a delicate balance, though.
Alright. I'll leave him as is.
We'll see how things pan out. Afterall, he is naïve and could be swayed.
@GM Tribute, Could you clarify the traits situation for me?
One trait, one campaign trait, and a bonus trait with a drawback?
Yes, two traits to start, one must be from the players guide.
If you select a drawback, you can pick another trait.
I think all traits are supposed to be from different categories (religious, campaign, etc.)
Search drawback pathfinder prd and i think the drawback list comes up
Got it, thanks. I just wanted to make sure I had it right before we started.
Remis cannot sing and probably never will put points into peform.
Oof, so sorry for the long silence. The job had my team covering another team's work last week, so time was at a premium. Everything should be calmed now, so I wanted to jump back into this.
@GM Tribute: Would you be willing to entertain the idea of treating the Mutagen benefits/complications similar to the Unchained Barbarian's Rage? Specifically regarding instead of having to recalculate ability score related class features/health, we simply use the +/- modifiers to rolls and temp HP (if CON Mutagen). To avoid having to have 3 possibly 6 if I take a cognatogen extra character sheets, I may just choose an archetype that replaces Mutagen if this doesn't interest you.
As per Elfriede's background, she was working in a tavern in Greatwall. With this being the only one, I assumed it'd be fine if she was employed there. Hope that's cool!
Makes for a good story anyway.
Sounds good Elfriede!!
Yes, we almost have a quorum (dont see our antipaladin). Plan is to meet the captain of the guard Wednesday latest. Provide more background about Greatwall -- you will find it is officially Sanctuary of Abadar (so Lebeda/Brevan interests can project south without being under a national banner, but a religious one).
Thank you for joining, and think the party composition looks great.
I don't want mutagens to be hard, my alchemist treated them as alchemical bonuses to stats that I tracked as temporary stat modifiers. If you have a way that makes it easier, please try it. I typically modified the same stats repeatedly (INT and DEX as mindchemist).
This party definitely looks interesting. I'm really going to enjoy it.
I need to take some time tomorrow and read everyone's backstories.
I don't want mutagens to be hard, my alchemist treated them as alchemical bonuses to stats that I tracked as temporary stat modifiers. If you have a way that makes it easier, please try it. I typically modified the same stats repeatedly (INT and DEX as mindchemist).
Pretty much what I was thinking. If a score would get +4, then +2 modifier for related rolls, -2 = -1 modifier without the complete readjustment of entire stat block. The only things I can think of which would still need to be considered separately are effective caster levels to qualify for extracts and carrying capacity, but those should be easy to track.
Tibold should be done now, crunch-wise. Please let me know if I missed anything or screwed up a number.
When Tibold's older brother was drawn and quartered for "flirting" with the visiting lord's plaything at the time (in truth she had very much seduced Tibold's brother which of course she denied vehemently), Tibold felt a hate begin to burn within him and a resentment built by generations of those who've lived on the fringes to avoid such wanton and callous behavior from the so-called betters of their land blossomed forth. He had been sneaking through the inn's hallway towards the little slut's quarters (it was time for her bath) with his brother's old pitted dagger when a door abruptly opened and he man's large hand swept up the 12-year-old Tibold and pulled him inside.
"That's not the way, boy," a blank-faced man in the lord's retinue had stated without concern. He then proceeded to hand Tibold a jar of unguent and instructed him to carefully apply it to a certain saddle in the stables. Bewildered, Tibold had done what the man instructed.
The following day, as the lord and retinue (including the pretty little plaything who blushed and giggled as if she had not watched on of her lovers brutally killed the day before) rode out for more hunting under the bitter gazes of the townsfolk. Later the hunting party would return in a more somber state as during a chase, the plaything's saddle straps had snapped, and she had fallen to the ground hard, breaking her back. Upon examination her saddle straps were clearly much more weathered and aged than had been realized. The lord had fumed, but could find now reasonable way to blame the townsfolk, and when the woman died two nights later, he and the rest of his retinue readied to depart back to "civilization" as they called it.
Tibold had been giddy with the thought that his actions may indeed have played a part in getting the revenge his brother deserved, and he secretly approached the man who had helped him.
"You wonder why, I imagine," he whispered to Tibold. "Trust me, if you'd known her even better, you'd know she didn't get half of what she deserved." He held out a book to Tibold. "This is alchemy. For any problem, you can make a solution. Learn to read. Study this. Then you too shall hold the power of other's lives in your hands, with or without magic."
Tibold never forgot the man's kindness...or perhaps cruelty. As the years past, Tibold slowly lost the ability to distinguish the two entirely.
@Tibold, I treat mutagen equivalent to rage, ith the difference that its more flexible.
I just finished reading everyone's backstories.
This should be fun!
I think the antipaladin bailed. If you have a friend you would like to join us in this group, let them know. Also, I posted this in Group 3 recruitment.
Recruiting Update
The not good guys lost their antipaladin. Let me know if anyone is interested in joining Group 2.
We have a cleric, fighter, rogue swashbuckler, elf magus and Spasmodeus is in the flex slot. Pitch me something good with a character backstory.
If you want to be a not good guy, group 2 needs one more too. They can use any class too.
I just finished reading everyone's backstories.
This should be fun!
Everyone's backstory was really good! So good that I'm thinking about putting mine in story form like so many of you did. Put my synopsis to shame, lol.
That anti-paladin would have really tied our group together. twigs crossed.
And, since this is the discussion thread the GM is responsible for providing intriguing discussion topics at times.
The Stormwind Fallacy reposted from another source (not my comments)
I still stand by the argument that this is a fundamental difference between old school (basic D&D: 1 race/class, AD&D: very limted multi-classing) vrs new school (I buy a book and there is a class in their and I want it gimmie gimmie). The trend I see is old school = roleplayers, new school = optomizers.
Note to New school people: Don't listen to what you hear, you aren't a dork if you roleplay. It is ok to indulge in what D&D is all about, roleplay. If you try it and have a good DM, I guarantee you'll have a blast and won't care so much about optomizing. Okay, that's it.
I'm hereby proposing a new logical fallacy. It's not a new idea, but maybe with a catchy name (like the Oberoni Fallacy) it will catch on.
The Stormwind Fallacy, aka the Roleplayer vs Rollplayer Fallacy Just because one optimizes his characters mechanically does not mean that they cannot also roleplay, and vice versa.
Corollary: Doing one in a game does not preclude, nor infringe upon, the ability to do the other in the same game.
Generalization 1: One is not automatically a worse roleplayer if he optimizes, and vice versa. Generalization 2: A non-optimized character is not automatically roleplayed better than an optimized one, and vice versa.
(I admit that there are some diehards on both sides -- the RP fanatics who refuse to optimize as if strong characters were the mark of the Devil and the min/max munchkins who couldn't RP their way out of a paper bag without setting it on fire -- though I see these as extreme examples. The vast majority of people are in between, and thus the generalizations hold. The key word is 'automatically')
Proof: These two elements rely on different aspects of a player's gameplay. Optimization factors in to how well one understands the rules and handles synergies to produce a very effective end result. Roleplaying deals with how well a player can act in character and behave as if he was someone else. A person can act while understanding the rules, and can build something powerful while still handling an effective character. There is nothing in the game -- mechanical or otherwise -- restricting one if you participate in the other.
Claiming that an optimizer cannot roleplay (or is participating in a playstyle that isn't supportive of roleplaying) because he is an optimizer, or vice versa, is committing the Stormwind Fallacy
I dont think this fallacy was ever an actual thing, but I maybe Dunning Kruegering myself here (like most people who optimize, I do not see myself as a bad roleplayer).
I probably optimize different compared to other people though, I see the game as having 4 types of challenges, combat, social, recon and knowledge, and ideally my character is good at one of these and can at least participate somewhat competently at 2 others. This is admiddently a bit hard with a 15 point buy, but it can be done especially if the GM allows a "good cop bad cop" routine in which an intimidate can be used to assist in diplomacy/bluff or vice versa.
I think my main issue as a player is "main character syndrome", please everyone dont hesitate to ping me if that becomes an issue in your eyes, its a bit harder to tell in pbps if you are hogging too much spotlight, as you dont see peoples faces.
I used to lean heavy into the roleplay to the detriment of my fellow PCs. My first character was a rogue in 3.5 and I was that guy. When our DM left town, I took over and I fell hard into the mechanics. So, when I got to play again, I only made super optimized characters.
I believe that I've found a solid middle ground over the years. I generally come up with a loose backstory (maybe a sentence or two) along with a personality. Then I work out the mechanics to fit the concept. And I make changes to both along the way.
Sometimes, I just find a feat or a weapon I've never used before and build around that. "What kind of character would use the Balor Whip feats?" And let the mechanics inform the flavor.
I still will choose flavor over crunch if given an ultimatum (most of the time.) But I will never picked something that "is what my character would do" if it will directly and negatively impact another player. Unless, of course, we're previously discussed it.
Sigvald as for your concerns, I'm sure we all struggle with that. We all want to be the hero. I've only witnessed it once firsthand on these boards where the GM was let a PC have direct ties to major NPCs and the first dozen or so pages were revolved are that PC and their relationships to said NPC.
Remis is definitely comfortable taking a backseat to others atm.
The most "evil" thing I have done as player was using spread rumor, in Alyushinyrra, that the parties bard who was very much a typical "casanova bard" was a virgin. We had great laughs about it.
I considered this as possibility purely for the aspect of being a major combat contributor, but it would definitely have required a complete rework of the concept of amoral mad scientist who also contributes with potions and alchemical items for party use. I decided in the end that what I really wished for was the ability to use the reverse of anthropomorphic animal. Basically, a spell/extract representing a concept like lycanthropize humanoid or perhaps something based on the fleshwarping rules which could cause random mutations.
Even for selecting formulae to start, I tried to consider less of what was powerful or combo'd well in favor of what would a person who moves around a lot or is preparing for an expedition consider useful.
As far as my personal background, I began with Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay which starts off everyone as coming from very normal careers to become adventurers, so you only come into the game with some of the most basic skills which may not even be combat related or useful. Roleplaying the hell out of "past" career experience and how people from those backgrounds would actually behave when confronted with a vampire or a demon of Chaos was encouraged and rewarded by our GM, so I will typically always make the roleplay choice over the "best" decision mechanically because that's kind of my instincts at this phase in my gaming. Of course, finding a way to realistically roleplay the perfect move as coincidence kind of became a subgame with my fellow players. :P
I have definitely played with "rollplayers" who really didn't contribute anything aside from "My fighter attacks, power attack...I roll infinity dice for damage." I never could even tell if they enjoyed the game or not because they barely ever talked or contributed much to any pre-fight strategizing. Just rolled on their turns and knew exactly what combination of skills/moves/feats should make their ultra attack impossible to defend against.
That was very difficult to play with aside from just basically ignoring their character. I kind of don't understand why those kinds of rollplayers even play RPGs since they basically devolve the whole experience into a board game of which there are hundreds of great ones, so just go play that. On the other hand, I've seen players who munchkin and still roleplay, but their goals are to troll the GM and intentionally ruin the encounters by always having the answer. That just gets boring, and from my experience those players quickly lose tables since no one wants to keep playing with them and start forming new games without inviting them.
Most of the time when one player in PbP appears to be the "star," is when they constantly post in such a way that all the other players have to react to them. Given this is largely due to time and ability to write posts, if one player has a vast amount of free time, they can potentially hog the limelight as it were. If any of us does have a good amount of time to write and post, I encourage a lot of inner monologue and descriptive type posts so those who have not had a chance to react to a scene don't get left out and have the scene progress far beyond the point any character stops being able to participate. Personally, I think this contributes quite a bit to player burnout on a PbP game since they may feel like their posts don't matter thus influencing their prioritizing of making times to post ultimately leading to ghosting, quitting, or being asked to leave the game.
I wanted to clarify Tibold's actions in the scene Confrontation with the Guards. He's not acting threatening in anyway. When I described him pushing his chair back and laying a hand on his pack, I simply mean it appears he's about to stand, possibly even comply with the implied command, but has paused while he waits to see what happens. If Sigvald Urfheddr actually initiates a fight, Tibold will probably attempt to bounce out of the tavern as quickly as possible. He has zero interest in getting killed or arrested if conflict occurs. I'm honestly not expecting we even have a choice but to capitulate, so please don't think his inner monologue is encouraging some type of combat. :P
@GM Tribute: I'm going to send you a DM about alchemy and the Item Creation rules, what I'm thinking as far as Tibold's party contributions, and some of the restrictions on formulae which may have some bend to them depending on your views. Might be kind of long-winded, so may not be written up super quick, or I may separate the discussions depending on the size of my post(s) containing the question/argument/suggestion.
I will try to keep up the pace and when there are multiple spoilers will label them if I am not lazy. When rolling for them you can designate what spoiler you are unlocking.
Some will not need a roll and say things like be an half orc or have a favored enemy orc.
And, spellchecker in the gameplay post allowed me to put heart where hearth should be :-)
There is not a big heart in the room.
Awe, I was really hoping for a giant pink heart on the wall. It was giving me care bear vibes.
