Okay…I think there is a lot of confusion on Downtime Rules and all of that…which is my fault as it’s been awhile since I too have used/read the rules.
My main goals of this campaign/game were/are as follows as I am hoping I could get input from all of you my players of how best to accomplish this.
(1) Give you a shop where you can create/sell your own wares as well as the loot you get from adventuring.
(2) Cut out/streamline most of the actual clunky DT rules (such as gathering Capital). I understand *why* there’s the mechanic of spending GP to earn Capital (goods/etc) to construct buildings. I just don’t like how clunky it feels…
(Fix A) —— Scrap the goods for Capital mechanic altogether. Go to strictly a GP generating mechanic. If the room generates GP, that’s all it can generate. If it doesn’t generate GP but a different Capital (Goods/Magic/etc), then it defaults to +1, and nothing stays nothing. Spending GP to start construction stays the same so if an Alchemist Lab room would cost 300GP to create it stays 300GP and takes X days to complete as to represent the tools/materials/permits required to put it up. Under this, each PC can make 1 check/DT day to generate GP using Profession/Craft/Diplomacy “fundraising”/GM determined skill.
(Fix B) —— Keep the current Goods/etc mechanic and instead go DT day by DT day to try and limit confusion/messing up.
(Fix C) —— ???
(3) Give the game a Shop Titans feel, where you can display a select # of items, and then be able to spend time/gold to upgrade your shop to be able to display more items over time. Hence why the adventuring aspect comes into play.
———
Any and all input is welcome :) thanks
Hey GM which book are these Downtime Guidelines contained in -- just a single sourcebook or multiple sourcebooks? I can take a look at them more closely and perhaps suggest some ways to make them more feasible.
The biggest issue I have seen with many downtime guidelines is that they seemed to be designed as a non-profitable means of doing things which makes no sense. Sure the average person does not make a truck load of coins but experienced crafters could make a very decent living back in that day and many merchants eventually became rather wealthy.
The biggest downfall for merchants were external raids from bandits or war parties and such but in a place of measured safety they could prosper quite nicely.
Ultimate Campaign has the downtime rules, Zen.
Also, I wanted the lab from UC just because it works with the downtime rules. The alchemist's lab from the Core rulebook is the other one, which predates UC of course. I want to have it to generate capital and I can buy it with my own funds if someone wants to spend their own money on something else we need.
Week One: Karita helps supervise the construction of an alchemy lab, having purchased supplies and hired a team of carpenters, glaziers, and others to get the work done she needs to make it happen.
Also, silly question: where does everyone sleep?
Zen'zot, if you like, I made the image so it is editable. You are welcome to make changes as you envision the shop. What I submitted was only a suggestion based on what I thought sounded good. That said, It looks like each of the stations, unlike the standard crafting equipment available through normal pathfinder means, have been replaced with added rooms. After any chosen room's requirements have been met, I am assuming that we will be adding an additional room onto the shop to reflect the change.
Based on this, I am assuming we have a base store front and need to add a room to gain the shop bonus for the desired capitol. We quite literally can copy and past a new room on as we unlock them. How this mechanic gets worked into adventuring and loot, is going to be interesting. With that in mind, I might need to redo the entire floor plan to reflect only a retail shop. Until we unlock the appropriate added room.
Also, I wanted the lab from UC just because it works with the downtime rules. The alchemist's lab from the Core rulebook is the other one, which predates UC of course. I want to have it to generate capital and I can buy it with my own funds if someone wants to spend their own money on something else we need.
OK, with this, I am assuming that the alchemical area stays, but the forge area needs to be converted into retail space. In addition, Zen'zot would like the backroom to be used as a windowed transaction location that can be used for storage. So, for now, I will create it to be a windowed transaction room (Only). Storage is an actual added room that gives a +2 to GP generation that we can add and use when we unlock it.
So, one of the things I was getting hung up on, was mixing DT for the shop vs. DT for the characters. Are we only using DT for the shop? I.E. one roll per day for the shop. Or are we going to add DT options for the characters as well? For example: One roll per day for capital for the shop and a separate roll per day for something the player would like to do, like promote the business, craft, or earn gold?
Okay so we are moving all storage upstairs and converting the basement into the other 4 workshops we will need along with storage for those workshops -- not necessarily right away but over time kind of thing.
We have a Leatherwork Shop (moved downstairs), we seem to have a solid plan for the Alchemy Shop/Show (upstairs), I will see if I can get a Woodwork Shop (downstairs for the Poppets) or just operate off the tools I have.
Also just because it is going to be the big neon pink elephant in the room for the characters at some point in time. What can we learn about that odd door in the basement?
Sounds good, Zen.
DT is DT per the rules. It might be spent gaining capital. Or promoting the shop. Or transcribing spells for that matter. Here, in the beginning, we'll need to do a variety of things (hence Karita is supervising the lab construction). Downtime activities are detailed in UC.
Are we looking at getting a smithy?
Yes we are. Note my best two skills are metalwork and stonework and from what it sounds like more than one person can use a shop.
Now perhaps this is the difference between an 8 to 16 space shop. 8 Space = 1 person shop, 12 Spaces = 2 person shop, and 18 Spaces = 3 person shop. However I have not gotten to that element if it is even in the guidelines. If not in the Guidelines though I would make that my suggestion as it applies to space and the number of individuals that can use a shop simultaneousl.
Yes we are. Note my best two skills are metalwork and stonework and from what it sounds like more than one person can use a shop.
Now perhaps this is the difference between an 8 to 16 space shop. 8 Space = 1 person shop, 12 Spaces = 2 person shop, and 18 Spaces = 3 person shop. However I have not gotten to that element if it is even in the guidelines. If not in the Guidelines though I would make that my suggestion as it applies to space and the number of individuals that can use a shop simultaneousl.
Just pinged you in Discord with that very thought lol.
I think the existing downtime rules (linked here) are fine and I'm happy to use them. For speed, it probably makes sense for us to do at least a week of downtime at a time as day by day will be too slow. I'm happy to help organize the spreadsheets side of thing for this. Regarding checks, I think we can make downtime checks as individuals, boosted by the shop. Once the shop is staffed, I think it can make its own downtime checks?
Regarding sleeping, I'm still staying somewhere outside of the shop until I have a room there but a room would be great.
Everyone: Can I propose that we track how many GP everyone has poured into the shop (including holders like the Church of Abadar) and GP profits not re-invested into the shop are split proportionally to the GP put into the shop? Simple example: if Zen'zot has invested 2000 gp and Mara has invested 1000 gp and the shop make 60 gp some time then Zen'zot gets 2/3 of those profits and Mara gets 1/3.
Karita: "You must be in the settlement at the start of the construction or recruitment period, but don’t have to spend any of your downtime days to begin construction or recruitment." So I think you still have your downtime.
No per the guidelines the shop does not make those downtime checks and we need to kind of decide who is going to manage the store aspect as it does not make sense that all of us make the operational rolls for the shop. So who has the least amount of crafting work with quality leadership type skills. As the latter helps with maintaining the shop, while the former frees up the rest of us to focus more on crafting stuff.
Or perhaps that aspect can be alternated, my guess at this point for the two most likely available to run operations would be Aldric and Mara plus this would help our two love birds ;) get better acquainted with one another.
Of course I might be wrong on availability part (but definitely not wrong about the love birds part) ;) -- do Aldric or Mara have any extensive crafting skills. I mean it would sure be great if a leadership type character took the helm of the business and helped us to steer us through the treacherous waters of operating a business.
Yes I agree about tracking GP expenditures for the shop for everything actually, I will begin a spreadsheet and share it on the Discord server and try to make sure it stays up to date. If I miss something just let me know. I am also planning on creating a more automated spreadsheet so that it can be easily used by each of us to figure out our hourly, daily or weekly time spent for downtime activities.
Note: So far no one has officially spent anything, we have just been talking about what we might want to purchase for the shop.
"A downtime session takes place over the following four phases, which make up 1 downtime day.
Phase 1—Upkeep: Pay costs associated with maintaining completed buildings and organizations.
Phase 2—Activity: Perform downtime activities, such as constructing a building, recruiting an organization, or retraining.
Phase 3—Income: Determine how much capital your buildings, organizations, and other activities generate, and sell off assets you no longer want.
Phase 4—Event: Check whether any unusual events occur. Some are beneficial, such as Famous Visitor or Good Fortune. Others are detrimental, such as Fire or Sickness."
I'm pretty sure that means PC downtime activities are independent of the capital generation of buildings, etc. For the sake of keeping things realistic, I think it would be fair to say our shop only generates capital if people are working in it, either us making our checks there, some staff that we have hired, or a combination.
If you wanted to hire an NPC to be the shop ‘manager’ you could hold interviews or let the dice decide what types of owners you get to select from. I would give them each a good/negative. Example: Bob has good people skills so he gets a +4 Diplomacy but is a push over and takes a -1 on all wisdom based skills. While that may not affect your actual Shop Income roll, if I roll on events of may effect that.
Just a way to bring a new perspective to things :)
PC downtime activities are definitely independent though someone, PC or not, has to be there to mind the shop to generate capital. Quite right, Mara. After all, it's a skill check, and unless we give the shop intelligence it won't have skills to check. Whether or not we want a manager is something to figure out at some point. If we all go adventuring looking into why we can't get supplies, for example, we'd have to close the shop till we got back without one.
I am also choosing to spend the first week helping to get the lab built, just so you face-types can work on other things. The new lab will take a few days to assemble after all. Taking it easy week one :)
I'm good with making the shop skill checks seeing I'm not going with any craft skill at all. I'm going moderate knowledge and charisma based skills. I just need the GM to alert me when he wants the rolls and how many to make. Aside from that, I will also need to know what we prefer to generate. Seems all the capitol options are required for most upgrades or endeavors.
I redid the the shops main floor. It's now more of a retile space with a window separating the main room from the small back room. this window will be used for transactions, Pr. Zen'zot's suggestion. I left the alchemy shop on the top deck and decided to not crowed the floor so you guys can copy and past any displays or furniture you would like to have on the main floor. (I.E.) Zen'zots poppet display. I also added carpet to make the shop feel a little higher end. The image should be fully editable if you so desire.
I like what you did Aldric but I do not think we have enough space in the basement for 5 Workshops so removing that infrastructure wall to open up the back room is not a good idea -- both from an architectual stand point and the need for workshop space stand point. If we do not need that full space of that room for a Workshop we could use it for that storage concept you denoted earlier and sub-dividing the room into storage and Workshop.
If the Alchemy Lab is any indication of space required we need 8 5x5 spaces for a single person workshop, 12 spaces for two person workshop, and 18 spaces for a 3 person workshop.
Which would mean that backroom would accomodate a 2 person workshop or two 1 person workshops or a 1 person workshop and storage space.
Also my Poppet display is Woody ;) while we are here. Otherwise I could make a wooden statue replica and then carve a few faces to display so customers could get an idea of what it would look like.
I like what you did Aldric but I do not think we have enough space in the basement for 5 Workshops so removing that infrastructure wall to open up the back room is not a good idea -- both from an architectual stand point and the need for workshop space stand point. If we do not need that full space of that room for a Workshop we could use it for that storage concept you denoted earlier and sub-dividing the room into storage and Workshop.
If the Alchemy Lab is any indication of space required we need 8 5x5 spaces for a single person workshop, 12 spaces for two person workshop, and 18 spaces for a 3 person workshop.
Which would mean that backroom would accomodate a 2 person workshop or two 1 person workshops or a 1 person workshop and storage space.
Also my Poppet display is Woody ;) while we are here. Otherwise I could make a wooden statue replica and then carve a few faces to display so customers could get an idea of what it would look like.
That was my original thought as well. That's why I placed the forge on the main floor. Now, after reading about the room upgrades, I"m thinking the lack of space will no longer be an issue. Instead of buying a workshop that we need to place into an existing room, the new downtime options have us buying room addons. I take this as quite literally adding a room to the existing building (Copy and past new room on). (GM can confirm this.) That room will then give a larger bonus to the shop's capital generation. In some cases the room also functions the same as the standard crafting station in regards to gaining a bonus to craft an item. The room upgrade generally requires a number of different capital to build, so we will need to expand as we go. As fare as the basement goes, we can expand that space as we expand the main floor of the shop. Bottom floor for crafting and top floor for sales, security, staff housing, etc. The list of additional addon room's is quite long. It adds a lot of flavor.
Poppets: I was thinking, because of your custom face option, that your poppets will be made to order after the client selects a face. That means we will require a demo/display of options. In our beginning, your current poppet should be a great example of your quality work and will likely work as a sample. Simply put, he helps out around the store so the customers can get a good look at him.
Alchemy lab: A large portion of the upper deck is being used for alchemy products, not just the work bench. Shelving, display cases, and tables housing alchemical products for sale. The workbench itself wouldn't use up as much room.
Are there room add-ons in particular you want to put into play in the future?
Are there room add-ons in particular you want to put into play in the future?
Yes, there are a number of rooms/upgrades that would be a consideration. Some of them give +10-15 bonus on the check and most of them stack. Without looking them up, an example would be, lets say we expand and buy an alchemical room. lets say it gives a +10 to GP or a +10 magic generated during downtime. Then lets say the Alchemy station gives another +5 to magic. If we make rolls trying to gain magic over the next week, then those upgrades apply their bonus to the rolls. Every room we end up building that has magic as a bonus option will increase ours shops ability to generate that resource. Same with labor/goods/influence, etc. I would recomend taking the time to look over the different rooms, which are listed a bit lower in the link.
Aldric
That’s the way I viewed it. You spend the Capital and required number of days to complete the section then add it on your shop as an Artisan Workshop, or Bedroom, or whatever. You decide how big you want the space…between X to Y size. Once chosen you cannot make the space bigger as that’s the size your permits/goods/etc were for. So you’ll have to plan how many workers you want in that station (NPCs can be hired as your shop expands. Their wages are paid first of the month/same as building taxes, so upkeep is hopefully a lot simpler. The downside, is if not all NPCs are paid, they may/will simply not come on leaving that space I worked. Maybe you lose influence as word spreads due to lack of funds, etc.
I’ll work on a document, and put in in the top header people can consult :)
Yes, there are a number of rooms/upgrades that would be a consideration. Some of them give +10-15 bonus on the check and most of them stack. Without looking them up, an example would be, lets say we expand and buy an alchemical room. lets say it gives a +10 to GP or a +10 magic generated during downtime. Then lets say the Alchemy station gives another +5 to magic. If we make rolls trying to gain magic over the next week, then those upgrades apply their bonus to the rolls. Every room we end up building that has magic as a bonus option will increase ours shops ability to generate that resource. Same with labor/goods/influence, etc. I would recomend taking the time to look over the different rooms, which are listed a bit lower in the link.
I've read thru UC front to back more than a few times so that's why I ask. The only augmentations they give are on p. 104. Furnishings can boost earnings checks for capital.
Ironically, in my Skull and Shackles PbP, I've been building a pirate outpost one room at a time, so I'm way too familiar with building rooms.
The BIG question then is how much can we expand within our current area -- remember the square-footage our building takes up is what usually gets taxed the more square-footage you use the higher your taxes -- while expanding upwards does not increase ones taxes.
This is because within a city there is limited flat space but height is not an issue beyond the physiques of a building being too tall to support itself
The BIG question then is how much can we expand within our current area -- remember the square-footage our building takes up is what usually gets taxed the more square-footage you use the higher your taxes -- while expanding upwards does not increase ones taxes.
This is because within a city there is limited flat space but height is not an issue beyond the physiques of a building being too tall to support itself
I suppose we will have to wait and see. Currently we have an alchemical station and a leather station, so room shouldn't be an issue. If we get to a point that expansion becomes an issue, we could always relocate or take over the shop next to ours.
Building a Pirate Outpost sounds fun.
Currently discussing living arrangements on the second floor and a rooftop greenhouse :)
Pirate outposts are definitely fun.
Can I get a yes/no/revise response on my proposed system for tracking shares qnd splitting profits? I'm happy to play scribe for that part of the spreadsheet management.
Can I get a yes/no/revise response on my proposed system for tracking shares qnd splitting profits? I'm happy to play scribe for that part of the spreadsheet management.
Personally, I'm ok with it. The GM will need to have the final say though. Only he knows if that will work into his vision for the game.
I’m okay with that. As long as the taxes/monthly wages are factored correctly I’m good :)
Again Mara as I have stated I am working on hopefully producing a spreadsheet and posting it to the Discord server for all to use that covers all the bits and pieces that are part of the Downtime Guidelines which would include what you have suggested and thus making it more simplistic to implement without losing any of its elements.
BTW: are all of us on the Discord server now?
Neither Aldric nor Uwe are on the Discord yet, I think.
I am not on discord nor do I don't think I will be jumping on anytime soon. I post mainly from work, during down time, and discord is blocked on this particular pc. Yay big brother.
This discord was never a ‘must join’ thing. I used it as a means for everyone to be able to if they wanted converse with each other and share ideas :)
I'm good with the shares so long as I can see what I've got :)
Okay well I think if I share things with the GM they have a means of sharing that on here so you can at least get a copy of the spreadsheet when its done.
If I am able to grab the link for the spreadsheet. I can put it in the header as well here :)
Well I will be giving you the file so the link would be wherever you put it ;)
So, these are rare/expensive woods, albeit cheaper and more common than Darkwood. I do want some sort of check involved to be able to find a seller for the three woods you seek. It doesn’t mean if you fail you fail altogether, it may just mean that you have to go to a back alley deal for higher cost compared to a carpenter shop or something, while only might charge you wholesale price or maybe a slight cost increase. Darkwood would’ve had a higher DC compared to the three woods described above. So I’d be willing to lower the Gather Info check from 15->12, with the same stipulation that you roll the primary with the others be an ‘aid another’ since you are the local woodworker of the group. Much like I would have Mirita take point on finding alchemy regrants or other similar crafting proficiency. Think of it as Karita wouldn’t be able to describe the wood in such detail as you have and you couldn’t describe in great detail what type of regent you may need for creating an alchemist item.
The DC to craft hasn’t changed. Checkers is checkers and pretty straightforward in terms of design. If you were trying to create a more complex game like Risk or Monopoly (with all the little pieces and stuff) the DC would be higher. But the checkers are all uniform pieces, and the board is simplistic imo, however I am more then welcome to see/hear your point of view and reasoning.
Cost is very subjective, as the equipment guide gives a range of 1sp-10gp. According to the core book “ To determine the price of a darkwood item, use the original weight but add 10 gp per pound to the price of a masterwork version of that item”. The base item weighs 2 pounds * 10=20+5 for a masterwork version =25 if it were Darkwood. I’d be willing to lower it to a 5 gp board game as the special woods/connect would put it more in line with a MW item in general…just without the Darkwood stipulation
Assisting with Gather Information for Zen'zot.
Oh I thought we were going adventuring to get those woods, here ZenZot got all excited about meeting a Dryad -- who of course will help us if we help her ;) -- as there is something in the woods she wants taken care of kind of thing.
But yeah if we have to find it in town then I see what you mean.
Okay here is where the guidelines fall kind of flat on their face yes if we were buying a masterwork item you would of course pay for the extra to compensate the guy that made it, however, while masterwork increases the market price of an item it does not increase the basic cost of that item. However it does increase the construction time of that item. So let us say you have 5 sp basic board (aka about the same amount of wood in a Croquet Set as well as the same amount of effort required) now we masterwork it... me I do not add a static price as that never made sense to me that masterworking a dagger cost the same as masterworking a two-handed sword so instead I added a x5 stackable multiplier as you could add more masterwork adjustments to an item than just one as I also moved the To Hit and Damage bonuses to Masterworking as to me magical items should be about adding magic not bonus To Hit and Damage. Further finding a craftsman capable of producing an extremely high grade Masterwork item of a +5 To Hit +5 To Damage would be extremely hard. As that would increase the cost to make that item by 15,625,000. And frankly that would take a nearly a lifetime to make that one singular item of course that is what legendary weapons are made of and then of course comes along a wizard to add some magic to that extremely well made mundane item.
That being said our 5sp board using rarer materials might carry with it a x5 or x10 multipler increasing the base cost from 5sp to 25sp or 50sp then masterworking that would increase it to either 125sp or 250sp which would be the target number for making the item while the cost is half of 25sp which 12sp and 5cp or 50sp which is 25sp while the market price for the item would be 25gp which is 1 less gp than the man is paying us for that item or 50gp which is significantly more than what that man is paying for that item. So your call on the x5 or x10 for the rare materials but that is my take on the concept of crafting items. I hope that helps you make your decision on things.
So, I presumed you’d be staying in town to ensure you got the materials. That was my fault for presuming you would stay in town. How about this, one of you can make a Gather Information to find out if there’s any rumors of the Dryad having the trio of woods you’re were hoping for (Kuo/Blue/Pink). Everyone else can aid the one doing the Gather Information and then the team can go from the results provided.
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Cost:
So, I am gonna say the base board game itself is 1 gold piece. While I understand where your crafting alteration is coming from in terms of masterwork levels, I’ve already made changes to the DT system in a way that I would want to over complicate matters even more so for myself let alone the others.
Since you’d be using special woods, I feel the item would be of Masterwork quality, even if not imparting any mechanical benefit. The DC to craft with the ‘special’ woods I was call a DC 12 Woodcraft….and you only ruin on a 7 or less. Otherwise you would of course make no progress. If/when you gather the raw materials (wood trio) that would be the base cost so now it’s just how to figure out the retail cost. I’ll say the basic board game is 5sp, but masterwork I’ll say bumps it to retail value of 2 gold pieces as it’s a game after all. Masterwork weapons cost 300, Armor is 150 and Tools are 50. A game surely is not gonna fetch that level of gold cost unless you’re making some stone marble Dragon Chess set or something lavish.
Yeah and as I suggested you might want to go with a multiplier rather than fixed values as it does not make sense that masterworking a Dagger costs the same as masterworking a Greatsword --or-- masterworking a Chain Shirt cost the same as masterworking a full suit of Plate Mail.
Of course it is only a suggestion and it is fairly simply to apply it to whatever it is you are working on as it simply changes the market price by that multiplier and the rest of the calculations remain the same. I am cool either way.
Also I thought masteringworking something raised the DC by 5 or something like that but I could be wrong on that.
Masterwork if gives you a separate DC 20 to make the MW components, which is a separate check iirc.
Sent a PM to Uwe. If they don’t respond soon then I continue on with the outcome of the Gather Info roll.
Yeah he's been pretty silent for a long time...
I’m not gonna ‘drop’ them…just continue is all. I figured RL prolly came up is all.
They don’t have the supplemental rules, so I included a link at the top. They may feel overwhelmed so I let them know about the adventure right now as the DT stuff won’t really be happening until after the adventure.
Depending on how things go with the DT, I may *blow* things up in the sense of complexity as that’s what I’m trying to avoid lol
They mentioned they’ll be looking over the posts in this thread and responding over the next day or two. Worse case I can also add their reply in to my progression post.
Sorry, I have been AWOL. I am going through everything now. I went to join the Discord, but the link is now invalid. Can I get a new link to follow.
I am reviewing the links at the top, but the map of the first floor looks blank. Is that being done in Discord?
As far as I know somebody was gonna create a nicer version then mine. I worst case I will redo my average one lol
https://discord.gg/4KZPVKSE
That must be Aldric he was making some more changes to the one he had posted must have forgot to repaste it in. I will post the last one I made prior to his first set of changes and he can repaste his once he completes it.