buckler / bow Question

my question is

1: when you are in melee combat and you have a buckler strapped to your arm and wielding a sword in the other can you use the raise shield action?

2: now suppose same conditions as above save that you are holding a bow in the hand that the buckler is strapped to. can you still do the raise shield action?

my thinking is you should because you cant use the bow as a weapon you need two hands to use it properly. in the middle ages archers would not drop their bows to draw a sword and pick up a shield. Normally they would have a buckler strapped to their bow arm and a short sword on the belt as a back up weapon. bows were expensive in the day.

"You can Raise a Shield with your buckler as long as you have that hand free or are holding a light object that’s not a weapon in that hand."

So Yes to 1 and No to 2, since your bow is a weapon.

TBH in PF2 it is usually not that difficult to pick up an item you dropped, whether in or out of combat.

Normally they would have a buckler strapped to

well, if you want to be historically accurate (since you are mentioning middle ages), "normally" bucklers weren't strapped but rather you had to grip them with your fist.

the "buckler strapped in the back of the arm" is more of a fanstasy than reality.

Straps were used on the heavier shields usually to help accomodate their weight and give you more stability with them.

p.s. also it would be impossible to maneuver a shield/buckler arm properly while also wielding the normally cumbersome medieval bows. there's only so much hand mobility when you are waving long sticks of wood simultaneously in the same hand.

Furtheromore, you really wouldnt be able to shoot a bow at all if there was a round thing attached to the side of your arm and extending from noth up and down of it. The angle of the arm when you shoot a bow means that the far edge of the buckler would simply be in the way of the arrow. The only way for that not to happen it would be if simultaneously there was 0 curvature on the buckler (thus a bad buckler) AND if you somehow were shooting while your hand was completely parallel to your body, which would be an extremely hard and inneficient way (let alone innacurate) way to do so.

"You can Raise a Shield with your buckler as long as you have that hand free or are holding a light object that’s not a weapon in that hand."

So Yes to 1 and No to 2, since your bow is a weapon.

Yes for both. You have a hand free while you are not shooting with bows. They are 1+ hand not 2 hands. So you can shot in firsts actions and them rise a shield as last action.

The Raven Black wrote:

"You can Raise a Shield with your buckler as long as you have that hand free or are holding a light object that’s not a weapon in that hand."

So Yes to 1 and No to 2, since your bow is a weapon.

Yes for both. You have a hand free while you are not shooting with bows. They are 1+ hand not 2 hands. So you can shot in firsts actions and them rise a shield as last action.

he's asking for the buckler in the bow hand, not on the free hand.

he IS "holding a weapon" (even if not wielding it) thus in that hand, so, as you see from the rules that you quoted, that's directly prohibited.

OK, I was misunderstanding that he is just trying to use a bow and a buckler in different hands now I notice that he is trying to use both in same hand without swapping.

But why wouldn't you hold the bow in the non-buckler hand?

That should work to allow you to use the bow during your turn and the benefit from raising a shield.

If we go with the fantasy trope of a strapped buckler - maybe

if we go with an actual buckler - no chance

drawing the arrow with the same hand you would use your buckler woulr be cumbersome at best because the buckler is blocking your free movement range when you want to use the arrow

But why wouldn't you hold the bow in the non-buckler hand?

That should work to allow you to use the bow during your turn and the benefit from raising a shield.

To fight with the short sword while holding the bow in the buckler's hand (end of the OP's post).

Switch hitting wouldn't work either because the shortbow is still 1 bulk. So you couldn't use the buckler on the hand holding the bow.

Using a sling or hand crossbow might work since they are only light bulk. The idea being that you have the buckler on the hand being used with the sling (for example). Then when you get in melee range, you switch to using the buckler with that hand and draw a 1-hand melee weapon with your other hand. You might be able to beg the GM to allow you to use the buckler as long as the sling is no longer being considered a weapon that you are holding, but just a piece of fabric. But that is a huge stretch. Munchkinry at its worst - trying to use an argument of realism in order to gain a game mechanics benefit.

my question is

1: when you are in melee combat and you have a buckler strapped to your arm and wielding a sword in the other can you use the raise shield action?

2: now suppose same conditions as above save that you are holding a bow in the hand that the buckler is strapped to. can you still do the raise shield action?

my thinking is you should because you cant use the bow as a weapon you need two hands to use it properly. in the middle ages archers would not drop their bows to draw a sword and pick up a shield. Normally they would have a buckler strapped to their bow arm and a short sword on the belt as a back up weapon. bows were expensive in the day.

As noted by other posters, D&D/PF Bucklers are 'fantasy' bucklers and never existed in history: Actual 'historical' bucklers are not strapped to anything, but rather held in one hand and were typically used to block/parry in a more 'active' nature than most shields as they just don't cover enough area to protect you otherwise (you can't rely on your foe hitting your tiny buckler, so you need to actively intercept the blow).

I am generally under the impression that historical bucklers are more of a dueling type of thing, valued for its ease of carrying and drawing in public areas (you can literally hang it on your belt with little issue).

For at least the last 30 years, the D&D/Pathfinder family has used 'strapped you your arm' bucklers (as listed in the D&D2 Arms and Equipment Guide of 1991): I'm not certain if this was due to a misunderstanding of how Bucklers actually worked or if they just felt this fit better into the game (I'm thinking the later option is more likely given the complexities of adding a parrying mechanic), but these games have been very consistent on these items since then (see also the 'Fantasy long swords are not real long swords' discussions).

In game (assuming your sword is one handed):

• Sword and Buckler is fine.
• Sword and Shield is fine.
• Sword and Bow is fine (though you have to drop the sword to actually use the bow)
• Bow and Buckler is fine (assuming your buckler is not on the arm that holds your bow and you raise your buckler after you finish attacking).
• Bow and Shield is not fine.
• Sword and Bow and Buckler is not fine (you need to drop whatever your 'buckler-hand' is carrying before you can raise your buckler effectively).

Claxon wrote:

But why wouldn't you hold the bow in the non-buckler hand?

That should work to allow you to use the bow during your turn and the benefit from raising a shield.

To fight with the short sword while holding the bow in the buckler's hand (end of the OP's post).

That wouldn't work even without the buckler (IMO, not sure if backed by the rules).

Having the bow in one hand and the short sword in the other, I would say you can't manipulate the bow string properly without either dropping or sheathing the sword.

The buckler doesn't even matter in this scenario (IMO).

Instead of try to use a sword, a buckler and a bow at same time maybe is better to use a throwable weapon with returning rune or play as champion as class or as archetype. (A Rá's champion could even increase the spear damage to d8).

This way a char can have a range and melee damage at same time and even can use a bigger shield instead of a buckler and will receivel full str bonus in both damages.

The Raven Black wrote:

Claxon wrote:

But why wouldn't you hold the bow in the non-buckler hand?

That should work to allow you to use the bow during your turn and the benefit from raising a shield.

To fight with the short sword while holding the bow in the buckler's hand (end of the OP's post).

That wouldn't work even without the buckler (IMO, not sure if backed by the rules).

Having the bow in one hand and the short sword in the other, I would say you can't manipulate the bow string properly without either dropping or sheathing the sword.

The buckler doesn't even matter in this scenario (IMO).

• Use the Bow at range.
• If the enemy gets into melee with you, draw a melee weapon and strike with it without dropping the bow, instead using the 'bow hand' to raise a buckler.
• If there is no longer a foe in melee, drop/stow the melee weapon and go back to ranged strikes with the bow.

A better option would be to have a melee weapon with Parry: that way you pull it with your buckler hand and you can still use an action to raise your AC. For instance, a Main-gauche.

A better option would be to have a melee weapon with Parry: that way you pull it with your buckler hand and you can still use an action to raise your AC. For instance, a Main-gauche.

• Bo Staff - Two Handed Weapon
• Butterfly Sword - Advanced, Uncommon, d4 weapon die
• Clan Dagger - Uncommon, d4 weapon die
• Exquisite Sword Cane - probably the only 'decent' option
• Exquisite Sword Cane Sheath - d4 weapon die
• Hook Sword - Advanced, Uncommmon
• Main-gauche - d4 Weapon die
• Nightstick - Uncommon, Nonlethal, d4 weapon die
• Tekko-kagi - Uncommon, d4 Weapon Die
• Wind and Fire Wheel - Advanced, Uncommon

Funny enough the upcoming mithral tree is a firearm with the parry trait
I don't know if that is martial or advanced though (I would believe martial)

but since it's an elvish weapon and a firearm it's probably also uncommon, if not rare

Most of the Parry weapons are Advanced, Uncommon, and/or low damage, making their usage rather limited

The OP was talking about using a shortsword. If your AC is important enough that you're worried about your buckler working, I don't think a drop to d4 from d6 is a big thing. Clan Dagger [common for dwarves] and Main-gauche seem fine for this.

So, you are largely limited to the sword cane if you want a semi-decent weapon with the Parry trait...

LOL If I where worried about damage, I'd rather use the bow and buckler instead of switching it up for melee. But the question here seems to be 'can you hold a bow, use a melee weapon and keep your AC from a buckler' and not 'how can you do the most damage'.

Its not perfect but the shield cantrip is also a common solution to the basic problem. Bow sword AND shield.

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

Most of the Parry weapons are Advanced, Uncommon, and/or low damage, making their usage rather limited

The OP was talking about using a shortsword. If your AC is important enough that you're worried about your buckler working, I don't think a drop to d4 from d6 is a big thing. Clan Dagger [common for dwarves] and Main-gauche seem fine for this.

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

So, you are largely limited to the sword cane if you want a semi-decent weapon with the Parry trait...

LOL If I where worried about damage, I'd rather use the bow and buckler instead of switching it up for melee. But the question here seems to be 'can you hold a bow, use a melee weapon and keep your AC from a buckler' and not 'how can you do the most damage'.

Well, if a d4 weapon is acceptable, keep the buckler and just punch your foe with your Fist (or even a Gauntlet / Spiked Gauntlet if you don't need the Finesse trait, but you probably do): If nothing else, it would avoid the need to draw, stow, or drop your melee weapon...

graystone wrote:

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

Most of the Parry weapons are Advanced, Uncommon, and/or low damage, making their usage rather limited

The OP was talking about using a shortsword. If your AC is important enough that you're worried about your buckler working, I don't think a drop to d4 from d6 is a big thing. Clan Dagger [common for dwarves] and Main-gauche seem fine for this.

Taja the Barbarian wrote:

So, you are largely limited to the sword cane if you want a semi-decent weapon with the Parry trait...

LOL If I where worried about damage, I'd rather use the bow and buckler instead of switching it up for melee. But the question here seems to be 'can you hold a bow, use a melee weapon and keep your AC from a buckler' and not 'how can you do the most damage'.

Well, if a d4 weapon is acceptable, keep the buckler and just punch your foe with your Fist (or even a Gauntlet / Spiked Gauntlet if you don't need the Finesse trait, but you probably do): If nothing else, it would avoid the need to draw, stow, or drop your melee weapon...

'fist' works: Gauntlet/Spiked Gauntlet I discounted as I figured someone that seemed to be presenting a ranged character falling back to melee would have a higher dex. [I think someone with a higher str would be falling back to a ranged weapon instead]. I could be wrong though.

I mainly suggested a weapon with parry as it went with the idea of swapping weapons in the example that was given to present a way it could work. I think instead of a 'fist', I'd look for a way to get a natural attack: it's not hard to get a bite, claws, tail, hooves, quills ect that'll beat out most finesse backup weapons.

I'd go Spiked Guantlet with shifting rune + Bow ( buckler in the bow hand ).

I'd go Spiked Guantlet with shifting rune + Bow ( buckler in the bow hand ).

We don't have any actual specifics to work with, but at this point I'm guessing the OP probably has a significantly better Dex than Str and probably wants a Finesse weapon, which unfortunately eliminates both types of Gauntlets...

A Buckler on the same arm that holds the bow can not be raised as a bow is both a weapon and more than light encumbrance, but a buckler on your 'punching arm' (with or without a gauntlet) had could be raised as that hand is 'free':

Source Core Rulebook pg. 277 2.0

...
You can Raise a Shield with your buckler as long as you have that hand free or are holding a light object that’s not a weapon in that hand.

Source Core Rulebook pg. 282 2.0

This weapon doesn't take up your hand, usually because it is built into your armor. A free-hand weapon can't be Disarmed. You can use the hand covered by your free-hand weapon to wield other items, perform manipulate actions, and so on. You can't attack with a free-hand weapon if you're wielding anything in that hand or otherwise using that hand. When you're not wielding anything and not otherwise using the hand, you can use abilities that require you to have a hand free as well as those that require you to be wielding a weapon in that hand. Each of your hands can have only one free-hand weapon on it.

So, the Buckler has to go on the 'not holding the bow' arm in order to function the way the OP seems to want.

Claxon wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Claxon wrote:

But why wouldn't you hold the bow in the non-buckler hand?

That should work to allow you to use the bow during your turn and the benefit from raising a shield.

To fight with the short sword while holding the bow in the buckler's hand (end of the OP's post).

That wouldn't work even without the buckler (IMO, not sure if backed by the rules).

Having the bow in one hand and the short sword in the other, I would say you can't manipulate the bow string properly without either dropping or sheathing the sword.

The buckler doesn't even matter in this scenario (IMO).

I believe the idea is:

• Use the Bow at range.
• If the enemy gets into melee with you, draw a melee weapon and strike with it without dropping the bow, instead using the 'bow hand' to raise a buckler.
• If there is no longer a foe in melee, drop/stow the melee weapon and go back to ranged strikes with the bow.

If you remove the Buckler from consideration, this works fine (though you are probably better off stepping back 5' and continuing to attack with the bow). The Buckler part of this combination just doesn't work as you can only raise a buckler '...as long as you have that hand free or are holding a light object that’s not a weapon in that hand' and a bow is neither 'light' nor 'not a weapon'...

I guess...but IMO just drop the damn bow. Better yet, if you don't want to focus on using a bow grab the returning rune on a thrown weapon.

So can I use a buckler and bow? Buckler straped to my arm manipulation the arrows?
Example round:
Shoot = one Action, Shoot a 2nd time = one Action, then raise shield = one Action?

So can I use a buckler and bow? Buckler straped to my arm manipulation the arrows?

Example round:
Shoot = one Action, Shoot a 2nd time = one Action, then raise shield = one Action?

Yes, you should be able to do that. The reason most don't bother is because moving or taking cover is usually better than raising a shield on a ranged character.

No reason to necro this post when they already came to the conclusion that you can do what OP wanted as long as the buckler was on the arm that wasn't holding the bow...