Ruins of Azlant

Game Master Aldizog

Wow! This sounds great! Thank you for offering Malakar! I'm totally in!

As for APs I'd like: Return of the Runelords and Tyrants Grasp look good to me. If you happen to have it, I'd also love to get a chance at Strange Aeons if you happen to have it.

SA is one I am pretty sure I don't have although I have played through book 1 so running it would be easy. Once everyone else responds maybe I will make a straw poll.

Also if any of the 2E AP's tickle your fancy but you aren't interested in 2E, rules conversion back to 1e isn't too hard imo. So at least give their first issue descriptions a read.

I am in a bunch of games, but many of them move very slowly and so don't take up too much of my time.

Another two are nearly completed (Strange Aeons is in Book 6, War for the Crown in Book 5). If the choice was one of those, I would sit out, but that would be fine with me.

I would be most interested in Kingmaker, Return of the Runelords, or Shattered Star.

Strange Aeons isn't that important to me. Since both of you have played some amount of it though, what did you think?

Kingmaker is always good. I don't know much at all about Shattered Star.

My games situation is like yours Brannart. I'm not short of games but they're moving slowly and don't require much attention from me.

I like Strange Aeons a lot.

I have a really good group and we work well together. The GM is fantastic, and it moves at a good clip.

Our campaign uses Automatic Bonus Progression, which was a very good choice.

Book 3 is particularly cool.

I had fun with what I played of SA however the GM that ran it really wanted the amnesia bit to be big so he made like 16 characters and we got to choose what to play with only Race class name and a image to go on. For a one shot would have been good but for a full campaign it made half the party tune out because they didn't connect with their character.

The GM also didn't run the insanity system (which I know some people in the community find decisive and belittling to ral mental illness) but also didn't replace it with anything like a stress system. So any time we ran into a big spooky moment or major horror it was basically just waiting out the negative or visual effects until we could act.

The actual plot, combats and setting were great tho the GM just wasn't right for the game I think.

I'm not a big fan of the Second Edition.

I'm not a fan of SF in Fantasy either, so that rules Iron Gods out for me.

Of the oldest AP, I would be most interested in Kingmaker, the original Rise of the Runelords, Mummy's mask and Reign of Winter. I don't know much about the more recent AP (after Giantslayer), so I'm open to suggestions.

Hey Malakar,

While I would love to play a game, I think it would irresponsible for me to add a game when I am having difficulty keeping up with this game. Have fun with this new game. No matter which AP you choose, I know you folks will make it great.

Sorry again guys. I feel like I am in perpetual work motion. My brain is complete mush lately. Between work, health issues, personal and family taxes, and volunteer end-of-year financial statements and taxes, I have been swamped. I hope to get back to this soon.

Sounds awesome Malakar! I'm definitely in.

Currently, I'm in a Rise of the Runelords game. It's very far from finishing, so I don't know if that rules out Return of the Runelords, spoiler wise?

I'm also in a fantastic 2E conversion of Strange Aeons.

So I guess I'm up for anything but those.

I am a fan of PF2E, but I'm still good with 1st edition.

I forgot to say this before but I really love the idea of a session 0. How do you envision that working? At a scheduled time over video or moreso riffing over possible character ideas in a thread on here?

No worries Mioki, it'll happen when it happens. Take care of yourself in the midst of all that stuff to do.

From what I know of it, playing Return of the Runelords doesn't spoil Rise unless you know absolutely nothing about Runelords at all. In other words there may be setting or mythology spoilers, but not spoilers specific to Rise of the Runelords. I might be wrong about that, so if anyone knows better please correct me.

The reason I haven't mentioned Shattered Star is that, according to what I've heard, it's a more dungeon crawly kind of AP, and in my experience those tend to not work as well for PbP. I've never started that one or anything though so that just my impression. If my impression is wrong, I'd be happy to play it. I really like the Varisia setting and background so that alone is enough to interest me in it.

Curse of the Crimson Throne is very good as well. I've played through book 2 before and it's really a great urban setting and interesting plot. I'd totally do it again.

One other AP not specifically mentioned by Malakar I'd be game for is Ironfang Invasion if he happens to have it.

I also really like the idea of a session 0. Never tried it before but it sounds like a fun way to kick things off.

I never really looked at 2e stuff. I'm not against it, but being a relative latecomer to Pathfinder, and playing PbP only there's just so much I haven't played in 1e that there's not much incentive. I also haven't really paid attention to the 2e APs that have come out for the ame reason.

That said, if a conversion to 1e is a possibility the newest one, Strength of Thousands, did catch my eye because of the Magaambya setting.

It is hard to say if Return spoils Rise. But Return does assume that Rise, Shattered Star, and Curse of the crimson throne and a small handfull of pfs scenarios are all in the past and completed to their Cannon ending.

So there are a decent ammount of returning characters and plots. In fact if you have played Rise or Shattered star you are supposed to have those characters available as helpers for the final battles and plots in book 6.

So if we are avoiding spoilers Return is a bad option.

@GM Take your time. Also, no pressure to join but I couldn't very well use your discussion thread to recruit and not invite you, very rude :P .

Apparently the list I gave above is complete unless I have more in storage someplace.

So dropping AP's that either other are playing in or played or spoil others leaves.

and the Technical runners up because players played part of the or expressed disinterest, Curse of the Crimson Throne and Iron Gods(My personal favorite AP have run through book 1-2 twice and tried to start a pbp once but wasn't prepared for the difference from table but playing in the games with you guys has helped me figure out the difference and that I can do it.). Also I just got for christmas the Print on Demand re-release of the Emerald spire Mega Dungeon, however I haven't even read any of it so would require the most prep and it is by its name a giant dungeon crawl. 16 floors of dungeon crawl in fact.

Based on the feedback so far Tyrant's grasp and Kingmaker seem like the way to go. But here is a poll. You can select multiple. Use your Azlant character name just so I can take into account any of the concerns you have made above.

Poll

I've always been intrigued by the Darklands but have only ever played Cradle of Night there.

Oh, Malakar, what sort of build rules are you thinking? I'm not really asking for a full rundown here, but, e.g., how do you feel about third party material? No problem at all if you fully nix it. I've been meaning to dabble in the Spheres line (but this doesn't have to be it).

Heh heh, any chance we could play a small group and gestalt?

I'm really warming to the idea of Legacy of Fire. Get it?

slow clap

I am not against 3rd party usually unless it is an obvious power thing but a lot of them from kobold press and frog genius are usually to allow themes or styles that paizo missed. But spheres is more of a system overhaul.

Off the top of my head my idea for build are as follows
-15 Point buy
-2 Traits(No two of which can be from the same category) 1 of which should be an AP specific one if said AP has them.
-1 optional drawback to gain a 3rd trait
-Races I am fairly open but I do like them to fit into the area and story and sometimes it feels weird when a whole party are high RP races and all the NPC's are human
-Classes mostly open, nothing against occult classes I just never really got into them so I don't understand all their rules as much so I personally shy away from them but if they fit the story I don't care. I also tend to only like Gunslingers in areas where it makes sense so Numeria, Nex, Geb or big trade cities Like Absolom or the big one in Osirion that I can't remember.
-If you were going to play a straight Rogue, Monk or Barbarian without archetype I much prefer the Unchained version as they are way better
-Backgrounds Skills(Because they are neat) and 2+int classes that don't use int feels bad.
-Max starting gold for class
-Hero Points if the group likes them(seems this group does)
-Depending on ap will decide if I use exp or milestone. If XP it will be group XP regardless of participation. Things that would earn individual xp would give other benefits such as hero points, unique items, skill points, stat points, or feats.

The proverbial session zero I think will just be chat in a discussion thread once it is made but I am not against a zoom or discord call or if not a call a discord conversion that is 'faster' than posting.

The big thing I like about zeros tho is it allows us to have our characters have built in relationships and rp and helps everyone know what to expect from a character. It sucks to come to a game and realize that only one person can contribute to healing and they don't want to heal, or nobody took knowledge religion so some lore becomes inaccessible or irrelevant, or 3 people mainlined survival and are competing over evry tracking roll. It also opens up better tactical play when the party builds together so everyone is at least a little familiar with the others build so the party knows to stay away from the wizards fireball or the fighter knows to delay until after the rogue to get a flank ect.

Yeah, that makes sense. So it sounds like your focus with session zero is somewhat more tactical (role/ability/skill coverage) but hoping that we form relationships for some good early RP hooks. I like it.

15 points is the lowest I will have tried to go, but there is something interesting about design with constraints.

Some arrays:
17,12,10,10,10,10 (+4)
16,14,10,10,10,10 (+5)
16,12,12,11,10,10 (+5)
15,15,11,10,10,10 (+4)
15,14,12,11,10,10 (+5)
15,12,12,12,12,10 (+6)
14,12,12,12,12,12 (+7)

I like 15 for a lot of reasons. 1st When running AP's it means in the low levels the published encounters can pose a challenge without lot of modification although I always end up modding anyways because I find it fun.

While every character wants to shine and I am all about providing that. I have noticed I have a more engaged and happy table when everyone looks around and helps each other instead of just one or two highly optimized characters solving everything. When each member of the party has a mechanical reason to contribute it encourages reasons for those characters to engage in RP with each other and be invested in other characters growth as it benefits them too.

Finally it gives me the option as a GM to offer stats as a reward.

I caved and cast a vote. For my own sanity, I need to work less and play more.

I will focus on Azlant tonight.

Argh! I screwed up. I meant to cast a vote for Shattered Star and didn't. Looks like I can't make changes now.

Malakar would you mind adding 1 for Shattered Star?

I would like to offer a few counterarguments on the 15 point buy.

1. Compared to 20, a 15 point buy really just harms everyone except full (typically arcane) casters, who don't really need any extra help being awesome compared to other classes. Arcane casters can build just as they would before, with a little shaved off. Everyone else has to make severe tradeoffs.

2. Some classes become essentially nonviable at a 15 point buy. Bloodrager, Investigator, Bard, Inquisitor, forget about Monk. All of them involve investment in 3+ ability scores and it's not possible to do without dumping everything else just to get by, and some classes like Bard don't really have a dump stat. These also happen to be (excluding Monk) the classes I prefer.

3. The same things that can be accomplished by a 15 point buy can also be accomplished by capping how high or low ability scores can be raised or dumped at the beginning. Doing this allows characters to use the extra points to round there characters out by investing a little in non-critical abilities. An 8 - 18 range for starting abilities works well for this. At a 20 point buy few players will actually raise anything as high as 18, it's still expensive compared to rounding out other scores unless they're playing a full arcane caster, and if they are a 15 point buy won't stop them either if they really want that 18 Cha or Int caster stat.

Voted

@15-pt buy:

I do see Fenna's point, but I will probably still make a well-rounded PC even under 15-pt buy and count on either bringing more of my "'A' Game" for optimization or else seeing what the GM has for bonus stat boosts down the road.

I typically choose to not min-max very hard. I think it a flaw in the game design that you can dump stats that don't matter to get boosts for stats that do matter. I almost never take a 7, and the one time I did, I made sure it was on something that actually mattered.

An optimizer would have made Brannart 17/15/14/7/13/7 instead of 16/14/14/10/8/12, and probably made him an Eldritch Guardian Mutation Warrior or something. Why bother with 10 Int and 12 Cha on a fighter? Why dump Wis of all things? Well, because I saw him as somewhat charismatic and a little rash but not stupid, that's why.

An optimizer would have made Brogann 7/14/14/18/11/7 instead of 14/14/14/14/10/10. Why bother with Str on a wizard? Because I thought it would be cooler to have a wizard fight giants with Strength instead of spamming high-DC Will saves.

With both of these, I have invested in non-critical abilities that are typically dumped, instead of just single-mindedly focusing on the main ability score. That's typically what I do when given 20-pt buy.

If I were to play a bard under 15-pt buy, I'd probably do something like 12/14/12/13/8/14.
For a cavalier, maybe 15/12/12/10/12/12.
Bloodrager? 15/13/12/8/12/13.
These would be competitive with published AP material, I think.
On a 3d6 curve, a 14 is as high as a 7 is low.

Hero Points will also give us an additional boost.

So I don't entirely disagree with Fenna, but I think I can make it work.

@15-pt buy:

If I were to play a bard under 15-pt buy, I'd probably do something like 12/14/12/13/8/14.

Let's compare Fenna's actual 20 point buy ability scores to your 15 point distribution above.

13/14/14/12/10/16

I spent most of the extra points raising Con and avoiding a dump stat. I almost never dump stats below 10. I'm not seeing any big advantage Fenna is getting out of the difference.

She's a little more durable. She benefits most in saving throws, having a +1 compared to Brannart's version across all of them. She could raise her Cha to 18 by 8th level, but as we've previously discussed here, her level 4 increase will actually be going into Strength. Fenna qualifies for Power Attack, but I'm not sure she'll take it given her 3/4 BAB progression.

The gains from 20 points aren't great, but they allow options as opposed to a "this distribution will allow the class to function" situation. The option I chose with Fenna was to increase survivability.

I mean if we're certainly going with a 15 point buy, that's fine. I'll play an elf Wizard or Sorcerer. If I do I can still exercise some build options because Wizards and Sorcerers get out of jail free. With an elf or maybe sylph I might even be able to make an Arcanist.

Well, as I said, if we are given 15-pt buy, I will make it work and probably make some sort of well-rounded MAD PC despite the challenges it poses. Admittedly, such a PC will not be as solid and survivable as one built under 20-pt buy. But not unplayable by any means, I think.

I was certainly not implying that you (or any of us) had powergamed under the 20-pt buy in this campaign. I think we all went in a pretty reasonable direction.

Not to get too far ahead, but it looks like Kingmaker may have won the day.

A few thoughts on characters:

Rogue: half-elf, skilled laborer, somewhat cocky and self-assured, despises authority, looks out for himself mostly, but can have a streak of bravery if it will not negatively affect him. Will typically route for the underdog.

Sorcerer: half-orc, quick to anger, recently discovered his magical powers and has no idea what he is doing or how he is doing it, lacks trust in others, self-sufficient. Powers have made him over-confident to a point that he does not back down from anything.

Cleric of Abadar: Human, Believes the Stolen Lands should to be civilized. Currently pompous and self-righteous.

Fighter/Archer: Human, Disillusioned former Taldan soldier. Naive about the world. Abandoned his family and homeland, looking for guidance and trustworthy companions and a new place to call home.

Just a few quick thoughts to build on or rip apart depending on what others choose.

@Brannart: Oh I don't think you were implying that anyone's trying to powergame here or anything like that. My point is the same as yours, at least in your last post. When given the chance with a 20 point buy nobody did.

I don't think having a 16 in a casting stat and not trading away half of one of a class's good save bonuses to get it is powergaming. Instead it's not having to trade away class features to make the class work.

Let's say we're talking Kingmaker since it won the poll and I chose Ranger. After I put some points into Str, Dex, Con, because Ranger is a full BAB combat class, how do I afford anything for Wis because that's a casting stat for it without dumping Int (loosing class skill points) or Cha? Or do I just accept that all rangers are dumb, can't carry on a coherent conversation or convince anyone of anything, or a little of both? Do I give up on Wisdom and take a non-casting archetype to avoid the whole headache?

I'm only half joking when I say many of the most tiresome class tropes like the big dumb fighter, etc. come from things like 15 point buys. My fighter has to be dumb because I can't build one any other way.

Does this mean you're really in Mioki? Whoo!

Even with the added vote for SS kingmaker seems like a clear winner. I will get a thread made in a day or so, so we can discuss characters. I will think over 15 vs 20

Thank you for considering it Malakar!

Campaign discussion thread is up!

Go ahead and post under your main account or the Azlant alias until we make characters. Will get some details up in a bit or tomorrow.

I didn't fully digest all of the arguments above, but I was open to 15pt buy in a curious way. I think it means leaning into flaws and having fun with that.

I suspect (but I don't know) that it also means that the AP can't be run in as brutal a manner as you could with a 20pt or 25pt.

Does this mean you're really in Mioki? Whoo!

If the invite is still good, I believe I am in. Kingmaker is an AP I would love to play, and I am using it as a motivational tool to work less / play more and make Azlant the best game that my abilities allow.

I may not get a post up tonight, but I am rereading the last several entries to get back into GM Azlant mode.

Mioki: Cliff Notes: We were bickering. XD

A somewhat lazy post to restart the game has been added.

A quick refresh: you believe that there is something in the tank, there is a trap on the first floor that has not been disabled, you have found several keys on Urlgryber, there are a couple doors in the trapped room that have not been searched.

If I missed something, feel free to mention it.

Re-reading Heal skill:

First Aid (DC 15): You usually use first aid to save a dying character. If a character has negative hit points and is losing hit points (at the rate of 1 per round, 1 per hour, or 1 per day), you can make him stable. A stable character regains no hit points but stops losing them. First aid also stops a character from losing hit points due to effects that cause bleed (see Conditions for rules on bleed damage).

I rolled a 15, and added 1, when I should have added 5 (trained in the skill) so it should have stopped our prisoner from dying- If Fenna wasn't playing with sharp objects too close from her throat anyway ;-)

Maybe our GM mixed Stabilization roll rules and Heal (First aid) rules, where you got a -1 penalty for each negative HP at your Constitution roll DC 10 to stop bleeding, while First aid is just plain DC 15, whether you have -1 or -9 HP.

Which, IMO, makes quite some sense: it is harder IRL (I guess, I have no medical training above watching Doctor House) to stop a massive hemorragy than a dozen small cuts.

BUT that means that Sho was really efficient at keeping our captive alive before Fenna killed her, and she knew, by her medical training, that the captive was unconscious and so not dangerous anymore, in her opinion

Sho, I wanted to apologize for missing this rule. You are correct that I was using the Stabilization rule instead of the First Aid rule. If I followed RAW, Sho would have stabilized Eliza. (at least before Fenna's stab)

With that said, having advanced first aid training, I find the DC of 15 quite low considering the wounds that Eliza suffered. I would argue that it should be 20 (maybe even 25). But, even if it was a DC 20, Sho would have been successful considering the +5 instead of +1 which was originally posted and what I went by.

With every mistake I make, I learn. I hope to make this the best game that I can make it; therefore, thank you for pointing out the error.

Brannart would like the +1 Breastplate, although as I noted in Gameplay, he will ask for it rather than take it.

He already has a +1 Cloak of Resistance.

The Ring of Protection +1 should go to someone else.

Ring of protection to whomever has the lowest AC (which seems like Malakar or Sho).

Vexas could hold onto the wand of Mage armor and wack people with it. Thought, I suspect it would only help with flat-footed AC on some folks. Otherwise most have 4 or better armor.

Malakar is more in melee than me, so he should get the ring IMO

@GM: no worries! we learn every day

The Saltspray ring is interesting, we should hold onto it since it might have it's uses here and there. Fire is fairly common and the mist effect is good for sneaking.

There's nothing among the magical items that Fenna badly needs, so others to take what they want first.

The Saltspray ring is interesting. I could have swore there was an Undine or Sylph trait that allowed you to see through mist. But without a way to see through the mist it basically makes its wearer blind.

The others are right tho I do have my eyes on the ring of prot to shore up my ac.

Regarding the Saltspray Ring, I was thinking that it might be of interest to Malakar to aid Razor when he is out of the water.

Regarding the Saltspray Ring, I was thinking that it might be of interest to Malakar to aid Razor when he is out of the water.

Without changes that doesn't work for a few reasons.

• Sharks(fish) don't have a ring slot.
• Razor is not amphibious like me. So while the ring will keep him moist he would be holding his breath.
• Until I have some magic or item to give him a different form of movement he can only move at 5ft. on land.

I still think one of the melee's should hold on to it tho as it is a nice trick to lock in with a ranged or caster baddie and than turn on the ring so they have to blindly move(maybe triggering AoO's), before they can continue casting or shooting.

Those are excellent points and a very strategic way to use the ring.

I was thinking on the line of a modified Sea Steed spell. I could offer Razor a nose ring slot or snout ring if you prefer.

Just trying to think of ways to include Malakar's animal companion.

If you remember when we were setting up this game we had a PM about an item from I believe book 2 that I stumbled upon on Archives of Nethys.

I definitely want to bring razor along but a permanent solution is better than a spell.

Although thanks for pointing out sea steed. Could be useful for me to get a few scrolls or a wand of so we can have some Sea-Horse mounts for longer underwater travel :)

Fog is not quite as bad as being blinded; you can still see people adjacent to you.

It is a major advantage if you can see in the fog and your opponents can't. I was GM'ing a PFS scenario where it was the enemies with that edge; two PCs simply refused to retreat no matter how bad the tactical disadvantage, no matter how much they were getting whittled down, and so they got killed.

Blindsight plus Fog is close to a game-breakingly powerful ability, and Malakar can get Echolocation before anyone else.

Now, given the limited radius of this ring's mist, it's not quite so powerful, but it can still be strong if you have Echolocation up. Especially against foes with Reach for example.

But... it would inconvenience your allies.