I've already got a belt of Dex, so I don't need it.
I don't have a belt as of yet.
I don't have a belt as of yet.
I say give this one to Adren. He's a front-line fighter, and while Leta also has some front-line fighting stuff, she's more of a run up, do a little damage and get away character. I'll get an opportunity to up my Con at a later date, I'm sure.
Admittedly, I didn't have Kain specifically in mind. I wanted to plant a magic belt because it seemed like a plausible item for someone to be buried with, and I like coming up with descriptions for items like that. I went with a Belt of Constitution because it seemed like it would be useful for any party member with an open slot.
I've just added the area where the web effect is on the map (gray lines). I hadn't been able to put it on sooner, sorry. It's a weird shape because it's a 20 foot radius effect but of course the walls would stop its spread in certain areas.
I can dismiss it if it gets in the way, and we need to find out if Bashuk sets it on fire, which could make things interesting. :)
I've placed tokens for the baron and his entourage to better visualize the battlefield.
My blasts are single-target, so shouldn't be igniting the webbing. I'll be careful to avoid using any AoE abilities in that direction unless we need to get through/clean up.
i love kineticists so much
Anyway, more to the point of what Nadiya is saying: things that have more than 5 feet of web between you and them have cover, while things that have more than 20 feet (which is all of the bad guys over there) have total cover. I think there may be some confusion about which side of the room the Baron and his group are on.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I love talking smack in an understated manner... :)
My blasts are single-target, so shouldn't be igniting the webbing. I'll be careful to avoid using any AoE abilities in that direction unless we need to get through/clean up.
And while my understanding of how the kineticist works is poor, my concern is coming from how the web spell works: "Any fire can set the webs alight and burn away one 5-foot square in 1 round."
Single-target or no, my understanding is your attack counts as "any fire." And at any rate...
Anyway, more to the point of what Nadiya is saying: things that have more than 5 feet of web between you and them have cover, while things that have more than 20 feet (which is all of the bad guys over there) have total cover. I think there may be some confusion about which side of the room the Baron and his group are on.
That too. You don't have line of effect, so unless your particular power doesn't need line of effect, then you can't target him anyway.
Total Cover: If you don’t have line of effect to your target (that is, you cannot draw any line from your square to your target’s square without crossing a solid barrier), he is considered to have total cover from you. You can’t make an attack against a target that has total cover.
What I was also hoping to get across, and what you have not acknowledged is you are also closer to the other attacking ghouls, and if you move to attack the baron, you are leaving us open to the flank, which given the numbers present, could be a bad deal for us. Maybe that's what you want to do regardless.
I am not saying this to tell you what to do. I am saying this to be sure you and I and the rest of us have the same understanding of what is going on on the battlefield, and what the consequences of your (and the rest of our) actions might be. If you haven't looked at the battle map in awhile, I urge you to do so as it may help clear some things up.
I don't know that I have insights, but a little chronology and an apology for not moving my token (and Kain's).
We were all in the room... although I do understand some peering into the hallway.
Web was cast on one entry point.
Valeska and Kain flaked the other entry point. Either side, waiting for something to come through.
Admittedly, it was mostly theatre of the mind (for me)... But, how's did two of us get into and down a corridor?
I was hoping for them streaming in and some of us getting flanking/sneak advantage.
I suppose I should have been reading closer, but it wasn't clear to me that the Baron was behind us rather than in front of us. Bashuk's target would change accordingly, I added a "sun" marker to help clarify on the map once it's Bashuk's turn.
@Valeska: for a bit there I was the only one updating my position on the map, when the parley with the undead started the rest of the party + the magical lights tokens were still a room or two back, so I did take the liberty of moving the group up to the shrine room we'd been investigating in Gameplay. I had intended to say so at the time but it doesn't look like I sent the post, so that's my bad!
I think this encounter started when we described ourselves leaving the room, which is why Bashuk is where she is, but honestly long narrow hallway isn't a bad position for a kineticist to be in.
All good... half the fun is adjusting on the fly. For future though, flanking makes Valeska (and a +2 makes anyone) more effective.
Probably this is just a matter of text not conveying tone well, but I really don't need reminders about flanking or checking the map. It feels passive-aggressive.
Oh heck no... I'm embarrassed to ask, begging really. My rogues always need that help.
I was not so much explaining the mechanic as my own character short comings, not passive aggressive at all.
You're fine Valeska, I shouldn't have said that. I'll blast and then fall back into the room if it wouldn't leave us in a worse situation.
If it helps, I put myself where I am so I can block that entire way in and let Bashuk blast them from safety. Additionally, only one of them can get adjacent to me at a time so it's harder for them to just swarm me.
I suppose I should have been reading closer, but it wasn't clear to me that the Baron was behind us rather than in front of us.
That was one of the main things I was trying to point out. Sorry if I wasn't clear, but I didn't want to say "behind" because some of us were in different parts of the room. Anyway I didn't want to make a huge deal, and it seems like we're all set.
I'm confused, tell me if this is accurate:
1. The gray lines are where Nadiya's web spell is.
2. The baron is behind those gray lines, to map east.
3. Bashuk's icon is facing the exposed hallway to map west, nowhere near the web spell.
4. So that being the case, nothing Bashuk does from there is likely to affect the web spell, correct?
But then we have this:
So has Bashuk repositioned to the other side of the hall, near the web?
I'm confused, tell me if this is accurate:
1. The gray lines are where Nadiya's web spell is.
2. The baron is behind those gray lines, to map east.
3. Bashuk's icon is facing the exposed hallway to map west, nowhere near the web spell.
4. So that being the case, nothing Bashuk does from there is likely to affect the web spell, correct?
This is all correct as of the conversation we had above.
The GM had described the baron behind the web, to the east. But then Bashuk posted that she was sending a fiery attack at the baron. Bashuk had missed the GM's description of the baron being behind the web and thought the baron was nearest her to the west. As I had read the description of the baron being to the east, I asked Bashuk to clarify if she was moving and burning through my webs to take her action or if she just meant to attack one of the ghouls to the west.
Bashuk clarified that she had misunderstood where the Baron was and stated she could stay put facing the west hallway. Valeska also asked her to stay near the west hallway so they could eventually flank. Bashuk marked her position with a sun to clarify where she was and where she was going to attack.
AFTER we got this all sorted out and agreed on where we were standing and what it was we were doing, THEN the GM posted an update.
But then we have this:
So has Bashuk repositioned to the other side of the hall, near the web?
The DM basically overrode our entire conversation and said Bashuk can attack the baron, who is to the east, if she wants, which will require movement which I understand the GM is saying she can get for free, essentially. This effectively renders most of the entire conversation we had above moot.
I don't think Bashuk has had a chance to read the GM's post or reply to it yet, so as of now is still facing west and planning to attack the ghouls to the west. However, now that the GM has given her an option to make it possible for her to attack to the east, we will have to wait for her to show up and decide what she wants to do before the rest of us can act and adjust our tactics accordingly, especially Valeska, who is relying on Bashuk to flank with her on the west side of the room.
I would also like the GM to clarify if the web spell is acting as concealment only for Bashuk's potential attack, or if he is planning to nerf the spell either for the duration of the fight or permanently, and therefore, to accommodate one player, we are also now no longer protected with total cover by my spell. Furthermore the GM's statement has not clarified whether Bashuk's attack would destroy my web effect since it is "any fire" and "any fire" will destroy the web in one round. If Bashuk does take up the GM's offer, I would like clarification on that point please.
If the GM has decided to permanently nerf web spell to provide concealment rather than cover for the rest of the game, I would like to ask that once this scene is over I can learn a different third level spell in its place.
I apologize for any imperious tone, but I do admit to being cranky after we had finally figured out what we were doing only to have the reset button pressed on us, and one that triggers several more rules questions for me.
Ah, got it. Makes sense, thanks.
In any case, Leta will be covering the western hallway with her bow, since that's the direction of least resistance. If our melee people are in the way, I'll hold my attack or maybe cast a spell; if no melee people are in the way I'll fire at the baddies in that direction.
All's well, we're good. Bashuk will stay put and focus her efforts to the west. I appreciate the GM's attempt to be accommodating for me but since the Baron is still effectively invisible I think it makes more sense for Bashuk to target the foes she can see.
For future encounters, it would be good to know if a fire blast passing through a Web spell would ignite it, but for now it's academic.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm sorry that we had a misunderstanding, but I'm glad that it has been resolved.
Bashuk can roll her attack to launch her blast at one of the ghouls to the west, down the non-webbed hallway.
After that, Miruna, Leta, and Valeska lead the initiative order and can act at the start of the first round.
GM Vayelan, does Bashuk's effects set the web aflame? This would be useful to know tactically, both so we can avoid destroying the effect prematurely, but also to understand if we can work together to do more damage, as if anyone caught in the webs when they are set afire takes extra damage.
So right now it wouldn't be helpful to set the webs on fire but if several try to push their way through and get stuck, then it might be.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
GM Vayelan, does Bashuk's effects set the web aflame? This would be useful to know tactically, both so we can avoid destroying the effect prematurely, but also to understand if we can work together to do more damage, as if anyone caught in the webs when they are set afire takes extra damage.
So right now it wouldn't be helpful to set the webs on fire but if several try to push their way through and get stuck, then it might be.
Yes, Bashuk's effects would set the web aflame. As per the spell description, "Any fire can set the webs alight and burn away one 5-foot square in 1 round."
Thank you!
Next up in the initiative order is the ghoul cleric of Urgathoa.
I'm inclined to have him use Shatter to try and break through the Web. Part of the description of Shatter reads "Alternatively, you can target shatter against a single solid non-magical object, regardless of composition, weighing up to 10 pounds per caster level."
I did some quick research and found conflicting responses on whether this would work. Most of the debate stems from whether the Web counts as a magical object or not, with some additional discussion on whether its composition constitutes a "solid" object.
To make sure I don't use the spell in an unfair manner, I wanted to gauge everyone's thoughts on applying Shatter thusly.
I think it's a valid use, the webs are magically created by not magical themselves--same as Wall of Stone, for example.
I think there are several "sticky" points... :)
If the webbing is magical - let's say it's not.
If the webbing is a solid - or as I think of it, it is "shatter-able"? My gut tells me no... now if you freeze it, by all means shatter away!
If the webbing weights less that the 10 pounds per caster level limit, even for a 10 foot square.
If the webbing is a "single" object? I'm imagining multiple strands of webbing connected/ing to multiple anchor points, almost like a "jungle" of webs. Many objects... that are one "effect" or condition over an area.
I do like the creative use/intent!
Effect webs in a 20-ft.-radius spread (plural)
Starting description Web creates a many-layered mass of strong, sticky strands. These strands trap those caught in them. The strands are similar to spiderwebs but far larger and tougher. These masses... (seems plural)
It's a bit weird. I'd think the webs are magical, because they disappear at the end of the spell's duration, but they're not affected by spell resistance, which is the other thing I would use as a guide.
I think the webs are a single object in the same way a net is, even though if you described what a net is you'd struggle to avoid referencing some variation of "multiple ropes interwoven"
I'm inclined to think conjured items are not inherently magical (conjure weapon produces a non-magic weapon, for example). It's not particularly solid, is a sticking point.
Also the weight of 20' radius of web I would suspect would exceed 10 lbs. Then again, I see things on Google like "a strand (of spider web) long enough to circle the Earth would weigh about 2 kilograms (4.4 lb)" So perhaps all the strands that make up a 20' radius spread DO weigh less than 10 lbs.
Is it a single item? I'd say yes to the extent that any composite is a single item. If a hemp rope is a single item, then a web is probably a single item.
So my take is YES normal, NO solid (but just from the idea that flexible items are not solid, which might be a false reading), MAYBE less than 10 lbs, YES it would count as a single item.
Were I a GM, and a player was asking me if they could do this to a foe's web spell, I would tell them no, for the following reasons:
The Target of shatter 5-ft.-radius spread (which per the spell's description only "breaks brittle, nonmagical objects"); or one solid object or one crystalline creature. The Effect of web states, "webs in a 20-ft.-radius spread"; the spell description further clarifies that the effect is a "many-layered mass of strong, sticky strands" that are "similar to spiderwebs but far larger and tougher."
The webs, specified as plural and in the spell description as "masses," are neither a single object of 10/caster level lbs nor a crystalline creature, so they cannot be affected by the targeted version. My read on it is they are many many spider webs stacked on top of each other and around each other, so comparing them to a single net would be inappropriate; rather they are more like multiple nets tied together and to the wall.
The area effect version specifically says it breaks "brittle" objects. The web spell is supposed to be similar to spiderwebs but "larger and tougher." Given spider silk is a protein with, according to Wikipedia, the tensile strength of steel, I would say the webs produced by the web spell cannot possibly considered as brittle, even if you consider them nonmagical. Anecdotally as a hiker who has walked into about a thousand spider webs, I would also personally not describe the f+!#ing things as "brittle."
Even if you argued the area effect version could work, which I'm pretty sure it wouldn't, it would only a clear 5 foot radius of the 20 foot radius effect.
Also, if you consider the web spell effect nonmagical, does that mean dispel magic does not work on it? I don't think that's intended. Spell resistance doesn't apply because it affects the terrain, technically, not the individual, who just gets stuck in the terrain effect, but I would interpret it as a magical effect as it has a duration.
ETA: I would also add to the hypothetical player that the RAI of shatter is clearly for the purposes of breaking glass and crystal and similarly constructed objects, which web is definitely not.
Were I still a freelance editor for Paizo, I would also point out these issues to a developer who insisted the opposite--but, notably, the developer's decision would be the one that is final. Likewise so is the GM's and I am not GM. I would consider it a dodgy ruling, but the ruling is not mine to make.
were I to GM it, I would allow it for the following reasons, and with the following caveats.
1- Its creative. I prefer to give more when creative uses of spells are mentioned (that aren't inherently designed to break the game)
2- They are the same spell level, so I see no big problems with it.
3- I would ONLY allow for the use of the 5ft burst version. IE, it would not remove the entire webbing, only a section of it.
Thank you for the input everyone!
Since the Shatter spell probably wouldn't work as desired, I'm going to have the ghoul cleric cast a different spell instead.
However, I did briefly entertain the idea of having the cleric cast Shatter anyway and have it be ineffective, since he wouldn't know for certain if it would work, but I didn't want to nerf the challenge of the fight.
With 20ft of "web" between us, we have "total cover"... so does the cleric currently have line of sight or line of effect?
Please don't hate me for asking.
That's what I get for posting at 4am...
The reason I bring it up is because of this from the Spiritual Weapon description...
...If the weapon goes beyond the spell range, if it goes out of your sight, or if you are not directing it, the weapon returns to you and hovers....
I was not expecting one 3rd level battlefield control spell to cause so much trouble! Mind the blocking of line of sight affects us too, but the whole point was to allow us to focus on destroying one flank of the attack before dealing with the other. Once (1) the group to the west is gone and (2) if the webs are still present at that point, I am planning to destroy the web effect myself with some alchemist's fire (hopefully also hurting anything else in the web at the same time) if no one else gets to doing it first.
BTW we have 40 feet of web between us and the ghouls to the east, as it's a 20 ft radius spell (20 ft radius = 40 ft diameter).
As an aside to the previous conversation... I think an actually creative way to use shatter vs web would be, for example, if there were candle sconces on the wall, to use it to shatter the sconces so the candles set the web on fire. Unfortunately I don't think that particular detail is present here.
I typically don't play casters, so am enjoying the insight and discussion.
Hoping DM Vayelan isn't frustrated. Sorry, Boss!
I'm just glad the ghouls don't have their own kineticists.
Frankly, I'm more so impressed that you've used a control spell in conjunction with the battlefield so effectively.
I missed the line in the spell description that mentioned how it returns to the caster if it goes out of sight.
I suppose I'll have the cleric command the spiritual weapon to try and cut through the webbing.
Web is one of those spells that is very circumstantial. There are many times where either it is useless because foes can avoid it (if the battlefield is in a wide open space) or it hinders the PCs as much as it does the NPCs, because of how it affects both movement and sight.
This is in fact one of the few scenarios (involving narrow hallways) where it can work, especially if you're trying to keep something from following/getting close to you.
---
Entirely separate question: would you please remind me what the wall/diamondy looking squares are in the middle of the room that we are in? Is it a full wall you can't see around or something like a half wall you can look over and see what's going on on the other side?
I really like web, though I'm also very glad it can be dismissed.
Entirely separate question: would you please remind me what the wall/diamondy looking squares are in the middle of the room that we are in? Is it a full wall you can't see around or something like a half wall you can look over and see what's going on on the other side?
Those squares are an ornate mosaic upon the floor. We are treating them as decorative with no gameplay effects.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
On the road through the weekend and my access may be spotty. Please bot me as needed. If the folks handling the ghouls to the west need help finishing off that group, and if she has line of sight, Nadiya will cast ear piercing shriek to help finish them off.
Once all of the ghouls to the west are gone, Nadiya will either as a free action ask Bashuk to ignite the web, or if it's close to her turn anyway, toss an alchemist's fire at the web. That will damage any ghouls still stuck in the web and clear away the web in 1 round; the fire will burn for that 1 full round which should also hinder and annoy the ghouls to the east. (I'd rather do this than just dismiss the web so she can do some damage in the process.) She will cast iron stake and/or ear piercing shriek to hurt the Baron if he is in line of sight, moving to get him in line of sight if possible. Otherwise she will support with splash weapons if feasible/splash won't hurt allies. If a ghoul gets close to her, she will spontaneous cast cure spells to damage the ghouls (burning whatever spells that makes sense to burn). If someone needs healing, she will use her healing hex and/or spont cast cure spells to heal them.
Mishka is on standby to deliver cure light wounds either to a wounded ally (priority) or ghoul that is close to death.
Sorry for short notice, site kept going down every time I tried to post.
Is the opponent in front of Miranda and Leta still up, or has it just not been removed from the map? Same question for the one at the end of the hall.
The one in front of Miruna and Leta is still up, albeit badly wounded.
The one at the end of the hall from them is uninjured.
I believe both are standing; the ghoul we're all adjacent to just used Smite on Miruna, and Bashuk killed the other ghoul down the hall but hasn't gotten around to the other one yet. If you wanted to handle that archer-ghoul, Bashuk can use Kinetic Blade to help finish off the commander. Or vice versa, I'm not picky.
@Valeska, who is the countess' shout aimed at? Not meaning to ignore you, but I'm not sure what you're communicating.
@Valeska, who is the countess' shout aimed at? Not meaning to ignore you, but I'm not sure what you're communicating.
Everyone. More of a battlefield order, I know it's semantics.
Ignoring her is always an option.
Apropos of nothing, I have finally fixed Mishka's skills. She somehow had too many skill points before but I think I did it right this time (she should have her one minimum skill point per level). One notable change is her Perception is now +7, not +5 (but most other skills are lower than they were, which I believe is as they should be). Should anyone take a look, she has one skill point in every skill on her skill list except for Sense Motive.
Valeska is primarily a melee combatant, morning to do until they are closer and she can flank.
She called for a fallback.