Intense Variant Rules Gestalt Mythic Rise of the Runelords Anniversary Edition (Inactive)

Game Master Sebecloki

I'd assume arcanists use the sorcerer/wizard list

Question about Arcanists: Words of Power or standard? There are no lists for the class, and I am not sure how to deal with the prepared vs spontaneous aspect of the class... Stick with the standard spell progression?

If there's no list for it, then you don't use Words of Power. Same for Occult classes.

@GM - sorry for repost, but was worried it got lost at the bottom of the previous page. Are you OK with pre-game crafting of starting equipment?

@GM - sorry for repost, but was worried it got lost at the bottom of the previous page. Are you OK with pre-game crafting of starting equipment?

sorry it got lost -- that's fine.

I'm half interested in seeing how well my Kirthfinder Dracula build would fit into this...

He probably wouldn't need the Mythic stuff though, if he's using Kirthfinder. In return though, I would very much like to stack spellcasting theurgy between gestalt halves (to a maximum of HD, of course). That, and maybe grab regular feats in place of mythic ones. That'll be enough, I think.

I'm half interested in seeing how well my Kirthfinder Dracula build would fit into this...

He probably wouldn't need the Mythic stuff though, if he's using Kirthfinder. In return though, I would very much like to stack spellcasting theurgy between gestalt halves (to a maximum of HD, of course). That, and maybe grab regular feats in place of mythic ones. That'll be enough, I think.

This game is less flexible than my other recruitments in terms of rules -- I'm happy to have you play, but you have to use the build rules outlined there for this particular campaign.

Here's a build for *what should be* a mage-killer extraordinaire! Wow. That was time-consuming!

Decided to make a slight re-work to my character. Gonna not use the Runesmith class, and instead use the gestalt feats to gain the thematic class abilities I want that way.

A question as I go through some final selections and crafting; are we using Magic-Psionics transparency? There are two reasons for asking. One is about equivalency with like mechanics - does Dispel Psionics approximate Dispel Magic, is Power Resistance the same as Spell Resistance, do feats like Spell Focus, etc interact with Psionics at all, that kind of thing; and secondly, do all of the various +1 caster level for acid damage or +X caster level for illusion spells, etc equipment, feats, and class features also apply to Manifester Level for Psionics? This will be my first time actually playing with the Psionic rules, so my apologies if I missed something somewhere in regards to that.

Sorry if this was already asked somewhere, lots to keep track of - how do we handle the bonus hit points from our mythic tiers in the wounds & vigor system? Do those get added to wound points or vigor?

Rolling for levels 2/3 vigor:
1d10 ⇒ 2 - take half, so 5
1d10 ⇒ 8

Ynija is just about done I think

A question as I go through some final selections and crafting; are we using Magic-Psionics transparency? There are two reasons for asking. One is about equivalency with like mechanics - does Dispel Psionics approximate Dispel Magic, is Power Resistance the same as Spell Resistance, do feats like Spell Focus, etc interact with Psionics at all, that kind of thing; and secondly, do all of the various +1 caster level for acid damage or +X caster level for illusion spells, etc equipment, feats, and class features also apply to Manifester Level for Psionics? This will be my first time actually playing with the Psionic rules, so my apologies if I missed something somewhere in regards to that.

Another question as well: at 9th level I could have the following ability come online:

I would like to use this with the Dimensional Agility line of feats, because it's cool. However, it does not explicitly call out as being compatible with them, so I wanted to check. There are better options out there - fly speeds with perfect maneuverability, permanent walk on air, etc - but they aren't as cool. Legendary fighters get the ability to pounce at 11th level naturally. Obviously that's a fair ways off if we even get that high level, but it does have some effects on what I choose to pick or focus on now.

River,

Omenwalk may not work with Dimensional Agility, but Veiled Moon maneuvers with the Teleportation descriptor, definitely do.

Teleportation maneuvers require that the destination must be within line of sight to the initiator, and are usable with the Dimensional Agility line of feats.

Harbingers gain access to Veiled Moon.

Also,

River, using Veiled Moon maneuvers to qualify for Dimensional Agility, if you take Fading Strike as one of your 2nd level maneuvers known yjat allows you to get both Dimensional Agility and Dimensional Assault to start the game, as neither feat has a pre-req beyond Abundant Step/some for of Dimension Door.

Right. But aside from Stance of the Ether Gate, I’m not sure how much benefit I could get from the dimensional line with just Veiled Moon maneuvers. Omenwalk is at will however, and definitely useful with the dimensional chain. I could also take Stance of the Unbroken Stride at 1st level and have permanent air walk by roughly the same point in the game, and just walk 5’ above the ground and charge /pounce as normal with way less feat investment. But that’s boring compared to teleportation.

I'm playing a Harbinger in another of Seb's games.

This is where Dark Claim comes in, as you regain a maneuver whenever you Claim a creature. Pair that with Grasp of Darkness and you'll be good to go.

Facing off against what should have been a rather tough opponent, Hamza teleported in behind him, used a maneuver, used Dark Claim, recovered Fading Strike, attacked, and teleported away.

I'm playing a Harbinger in another of Seb's games.

This is where Dark Claim comes in, as you regain a maneuver whenever you Claim a creature. Pair that with Grasp of Darkness and you'll be good to go.

Facing off against what should have been a rather tough opponent, Hamza teleported in behind him, used a maneuver, used Dark Claim, recovered Fading Strike, attacked, and teleported away.

Very cool! Yeah, that would be a good way to handle it. I don’t think the dimensional feats do anything for you with that combo, which is fine. I’m just trying to figure out how far to invest. Dimensional dervish is great, but not something I want to build to for a few times a day usage.

Remember that maneuvers are per encounter. Meaning you can pull this off every fight, whether it's once a day, or 17 times in a day.

While you won't get much use out of Dimensional Assault via Veiled Moon, Dimensional Dervish will be effective via Fading Leap.

You need to be 8th level to get a BAB of +6, which gets you 4th level maneuvers.

As we get one feat per level, plus the fighter progression, you'll get two feats at 8th level. Meaning you can easily take Dimensional Dervish, and begin making use of it right away.

Out of curiosity, what's your second class you're pairing with Harbinger?

Remember that maneuvers are per encounter. Meaning you can pull this off every fight, whether it's once a day, or 17 times in a day.

While you won't get much use out of Dimensional Assault via Veiled Moon, Dimensional Dervish will be effective via Fading Leap.

You need to be 8th level to get a BAB of +6, which gets you 4th level maneuvers.

As we get one feat per level, plus the fighter progression, you'll get two feats at 8th level. Meaning you can easily take Dimensional Dervish, and begin making use of it right away.

Out of curiosity, what's your second class you're pairing with Harbinger?

Ah. I missed Fading Leap. You’re right, that would be effective, and reason enough to invest even if Omenwalk doesn’t work.

I’m actually running with Legendary Fighter / Tactician (Battle Medic) Harbinger is via the Horrifically Overpowered Gestalt and Mythic Gestalt feats. I’ll be able to handle healing, status removal, some buffing, striker damage, and some tanking if needed. Radiant Dawn maneuvers are pretty flexible and any initiator can gain access.

So when is this recruitment going to be over? I see a few complete submissions

I changed things up a bit. Intimidate + Stunning Fist extravaganza! I still have to figure out the gear and put the backstory to paper...

Kaouse wrote:

I'm half interested in seeing how well my Kirthfinder Dracula build would fit into this...

He probably wouldn't need the Mythic stuff though, if he's using Kirthfinder. In return though, I would very much like to stack spellcasting theurgy between gestalt halves (to a maximum of HD, of course). That, and maybe grab regular feats in place of mythic ones. That'll be enough, I think.

This game is less flexible than my other recruitments in terms of rules -- I'm happy to have you play, but you have to use the build rules outlined there for this particular campaign.

So, even if I decided not to use Mythic, it's still a no on the use of Kirthfinder? Even with other 3pp classes and "Horrifically Overpowered Feats" in play?

I'm actually fine dropping the Gestalt part as well, actually. I really just want to play more of Kirthfinder, and I would actually like to see how well Kirthfinder holds up against stuff like Gestalt and Mythic.

I understand that you have rules and all, but I would at least like some reasoning behind why Kirthfinder isn't allowed when it seems like almost everything else is. I doubt power scale is the reason in a Mythic Gestalt game. And if it is, I'm more than willing to give those things up.

GM house rules? GM prerogative? In cases such as this, does the GM really need to explain his reasoning?

Don't get me wrong: Kirthfinder is super interesting!

Just to be sure: at this point, max. 2 Horribly Overpowered Feats, right? Including Mythic?

Kaouse, KF rewrites a lot of the PF game rules and definitely has wildly different assumptions about what certain things can or should do. The classes are built around that. It doesn’t play nice with PF out of the box. None of the other 3P options in play rewrite pathfinder rules, and the rule over rides - armor as DR, unchained action economy, etc - have already been “set in stone”. If those changes challenge a character (like one reliant on swift actions), then you should look for a different concept. I like Kirthfinder a lot, but I don’t think it would run well for a player or the GM if mixed in with everything else. Sebecloki is also (I believe, from Kirths recent recruitment) not very familiar with that rule set, and may not want to take the time right now to learn it well enough to work into DMing it. Just some thoughts from what I can see looking at the different rules options in play.

Just to be sure: at this point, max. 2 Horribly Overpowered Feats, right? Including Mythic?

Max is 2 regular and 1 mythic. Mythic goes by tiers in a separate progression, rather than by level.

Max is 2 regular and 1 mythic. Mythic goes by tiers in a separate progression, rather than by level.

Thanks!

Alias ad Tempus wrote:

Just to be sure: at this point, max. 2 Horribly Overpowered Feats, right? Including Mythic?

Max is 2 regular and 1 mythic. Mythic goes by tiers in a separate progression, rather than by level.

From what the GM has posted I think the max is 3 regular and 1 mythic / Horribly Overpowered Feat

You can take 1 Horribly Overpowered Feat per level, as the GM has given is 1 feat Per-level
And then 1 from your 2 Mythic paths which run outside of Gestalt levels.

Level 1 Gestalt = 1 feat can be a Horribly Overpowered Feat
Level 2 Gestalt = 1 feat can be a Horribly Overpowered Feat
Level 3 Gestalt = 1 feat can be a Horribly Overpowered Feat

[This includes all level and class feats but for fighter, See GMs post on that]

Level 1 Mythic Gestalt [Path 1] +[Path 2] 2 Mythic feats but only 1 can be Mythic Horribly Overpowered Feat.

So your short 1 normal Horribly Overpowered Feat.

Here's what Sebecloki wrote:

*Horrifically Overpowered feats series allowed. Horrifically Overpowered is its own type. Any feat marked as such can't ever be taken them as a bonus feat due to race or class; you can have a maximum of 1 Horrifically Overpowered Feat at 1st level, 2 at 3rd level, and an additional 1 every 3 levels thereafter.

That would suggest 2 Horrifically Overpowered feats... And perhaps another if Mythic advancement is considered outside of regular feat progression?

Here's what Sebecloki wrote:

*Horrifically Overpowered feats series allowed. Horrifically Overpowered is its own type. Any feat marked as such can't ever be taken them as a bonus feat due to race or class; you can have a maximum of 1 Horrifically Overpowered Feat at 1st level, 2 at 3rd level, and an additional 1 every 3 levels thereafter.

That would suggest 2 Horrifically Overpowered feats... And perhaps another if Mythic advancement is considered outside of regular feat progression?

** spoiler omitted **...

As you say. Nothing Sebecloki has posted indicated that we should ignore the regular rules inherent to the Horrifically Overpowered Feats, which limits you to a certain number by level. He has indicated that Mythic HOF should be considered a separate progression by tier. This gives 7 regular HO feats and 4 mythic HO for a Level 20 / Tier 10 character.

Haha, I see my mistake now, I was reading

you can have a maximum of 1 Horrifically Overpowered Feat at 1st level, 2 at 3rd level,

As

you can have a maximum of 1 Horrifically Overpowered Feat at 1st level, 2 and 3rd level,"

Your right gang, I am wrong,
PC Fixed, one Normal HOF Replaced with Normal feat. :)

Kaouse, I know you're excited by the awesome that is Kirthfinder, as so am I, but Sebecloki has said several times in this recruitment that if his very specific rules that he wants to use for this game don't work for you, then this game might not be for you.

Which, I get can be rough. I've been having a really hard time trying to make my concept work for this game. The most ideal version would be a cleric/sorcerer, but because I don't really understand Words of Power, I have to try and replicate the overall theme via non standard classes/casting.

I really don't want Seb to come and check this thread, see your attempts to change their mind, get fed up, and cancel the recruitment/game.

I'm not going to cancel, but want to as gently as possible reiterate that, unlike my other recruitments, I don't want to negotiate on this one -- the only thing I want to do is clarify where/how rules interact if I hadn't thought of a question -- such as the issue with Mythic HOF vs. non-Mythic HOF (in case that wasn't clear, my ruling on that is that the mythic tiers are a separate 10 level progression for which Mythic HOF feats are allocated at the same rate as the 20 level progression for the classes (or prestige classes).

I find KF really interesting, but it's not clear to me to what degree it interfaces with PF1e. For instance, it has a different skill system which will have to be converted whenever that interfaces in a way that diverges from the norm. It also has its own take on the Action Economy which will have to be converted to the Unchained Action Economy in some fashion.

I would like to try a pure KF game at some point, but I don't think I can handle that right now with the number of other games I'm trying to run.

Also, if I allow that, then I can't deny all the other exceptions that have already been requested above, and will have to go back through the entire thread and re-adjudicate all the builds.

I know some are very far along and some still working; I need to get some other games back on track before I start this one, so late next week at the earliest is my proposed start date.

I already own all the Legendary Games supplements with the mythic versions of the creatures from RoTR, and have a neato hi res battle map of the Swallowtail Festival fans kindly made.

Sebecloki, these might have gotten missed from earlier:

1) Are we using Magic-Psionic transparency, for things like caster level bonuses = manifester level bonuses, dispel magic and dispel psionics do the same thing, both take two actions in the unchained economy, etc? Or are they treated differently?
2) Would the Harbinger (Path of War) Omenwalk class feature (teleport base speed as a move action) qualify for the Dimensional Agility line of feats?

And new questions:
3) Are Path of War standard action Manuvers still considered single actions in the Unchained economy?
4) How would you rule that Style Training from Legendary Fighter and Combat Style Master interact, if at all?

EDIT: my thought was that it would fair to say 1/round as a free action another stance could be started, up to the limit allowed by Style Training. The extremes being no interaction (can start 1 style as a free action, but any others take a swift/single action), and the other extreme being starting all allowed styles with the same free action.

Sounds to me like:

Style Training lets you have two stances active at once, and use a move action to enter all of your allowed stances via a move action or one stance as a swift. Since this can be three times, the first benefit lets you eventually enter four stances(I believe) via a move action.

With Combat Style Master, I would say you pick one style to begin combat with, probably whichever is the most advantageous, and then you can use a move action to enter the rest via Style Training once it's actually your turn.

Ie, if you had a stance that granted you a bonus to AC or saves, and you're facing a powerful rune giant or a BBEG caster, you could use CSM to auto start in that stance, in case the bad guy can act before you. Thus getting those bonuses to maybe make ya a little safer.

Then, when it's your turn, you use a move action, entering at least one more stance.

Also, if you happen to have extra stances beyond the allowed amount that can be active at the same time by Style Training, CSM lets you swap between them as a free action.

I could see that, too. I was looking at it as CSM decreasing the action requirement by one step. Having multiple free actions to start every style up to the maximum was one extreme, and would be very powerful in terms of action economy.

Your suggestion is the other extreme - they don't interact at all. CSM allows you to start in a stance,and swap active ones as a free action. From there Style Training allows you to start an additional stance as a swift or all of them that you are allowed as a move action.

I was trying to find a middle ground that followed the intent of being able to start a stance as a free action, but I can see any of the interactions being ruled valid.

Either way, CSM still gives an advantage and Style Training is a unique benefit.

My interpretation has you auto start in a stance, which is what the second half of CSM grants you.

The way I read it is like this:

Combat starts, and either has part of rolling initiative or prior to the roll, you pick a style and you're automatically in that stance even before it's your turn. This doesn't take an action at all, not even free.

Sorta like a Contingency spell, with the condition of combat starting, and the benefit being you automatically adopt one style stance. No effort is required on your part.

Unless I missed something, and with 187 posts, it very possible I did,

I see nothing about starting gear/wealth.

Using normal WBL for level 3, which would be 3k? The 'take gear that makes sense for your PC' or something else?

Unless I missed something, and with 187 posts, it very possible I did,

I see nothing about starting gear/wealth.

Using normal WBL for level 3, which would be 3k? The 'take gear that makes sense for your PC' or something else?

From recruitment:

Sebecloki, these might have gotten missed from earlier:

1) Are we using Magic-Psionic transparency, for things like caster level bonuses = manifester level bonuses, dispel magic and dispel psionics do the same thing, both take two actions in the unchained economy, etc? Or are they treated differently?
2) Would the Harbinger (Path of War) Omenwalk class feature (teleport base speed as a move action) qualify for the Dimensional Agility line of feats?

And new questions:
3) Are Path of War standard action Manuvers still considered single actions in the Unchained economy?
4) How would you rule that Style Training from Legendary Fighter and Combat Style Master interact, if at all?
** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

EDIT: my thought was that it would fair to say 1/round as a free action another stance could be started, up to the limit allowed by Style Training. The extremes being no interaction (can start 1 style as a free action, but any others take a swift/single action), and the other extreme being starting all allowed styles with the same free action.

No Magic-Psionic transparency -- I like the idea of psionic aberrations having abilities the PCs can't easily counter with high level magic.

I agree with Monkeygod's interpretation of the other issues.

So if no Magic-Psionic transparency,

The Knowledge (Psionics) (Int) is an active skill,
but Spellcraft and Use Magic Device, work on Psionics as well as magic.

The skills here relate to the use of psionics. In addition to a new skill (Autohypnosis), a new category is provided for the Knowledge skill, and new uses are given for Spellcraft and Use Magic Device.

The skill descriptions here follow the standard format for skills.

River of Sticks wrote:

Sebecloki, these might have gotten missed from earlier:

1) Are we using Magic-Psionic transparency, for things like caster level bonuses = manifester level bonuses, dispel magic and dispel psionics do the same thing, both take two actions in the unchained economy, etc? Or are they treated differently?
2) Would the Harbinger (Path of War) Omenwalk class feature (teleport base speed as a move action) qualify for the Dimensional Agility line of feats?

And new questions:
3) Are Path of War standard action Manuvers still considered single actions in the Unchained economy?
4) How would you rule that Style Training from Legendary Fighter and Combat Style Master interact, if at all?
** spoiler omitted **

** spoiler omitted **

EDIT: my thought was that it would fair to say 1/round as a free action another stance could be started, up to the limit allowed by Style Training. The extremes being no interaction (can start 1 style as a free action, but any others take a swift/single action), and the other extreme being starting all allowed styles with the same free action.

No Magic-Psionic transparency -- I like the idea of psionic aberrations having abilities the PCs can't easily counter with high level magic.

I agree with Monkeygod's interpretation of the other issues.

To clarify my understanding:

Which, with no Magic-Psionic transparency, leaves:
Would psionic manifesting be one action or two?

The problem with Omenwalk is that it duplicates teleportation, not dimension door.

My guess is the reason the DA feats are limited to some variation of DDoor is because of teleport's range. I feel like the idea behind the DA feats is to mimic Nightcrawler of the X-Men, and while you can still do that with teleport, I don't think they wanted you to do so at ranges of easily over 900+ miles. Not sure if it's a balance issue, but that just feels wrong, to me, based on the theme of the DA feats.

That said, other ways to pull off DDoor without being a caster:

Grab a level of Wiz, conjuration school, teleportation subchool for the Shift power at 1st level.

Or, take levels(normally or via the Prestige HOP) in Shadowdancer, as Shadow Jump counts.

Finally, I come bearing gifts for ya River! Found this in one of two HOP books from the Four Horsemen:

Question: with HOP Gestalt, how do you deal with alignment? More specifically, could a monk HOP Gestalt into Barbarian?

The problem with Omenwalk is that it duplicates teleportation, not dimension door.

My guess is the reason the DA feats are limited to some variation of DDoor is because of teleport's range. I feel like the idea behind the DA feats is to mimic Nightcrawler of the X-Men, and while you can still do that with teleport, I don't think they wanted you to do so at ranges of easily over 900+ miles. Not sure if it's a balance issue, but that just feels wrong, to me, based on the theme of the DA feats.

That said, other ways to pull off DDoor without being a caster:

Grab a level of Wiz, conjuration school, teleportation subchool for the Shift power at 1st level.

Or, take levels(normally or via the Prestige HOP) in Shadowdancer, as Shadow Jump counts.

Finally, I come bearing gifts for ya River! Found this in one of two HOP books from the Four Horsemen:

** spoiler omitted **

I can understand the reasoning behind not including teleport, and you are right - Omenwalk is more similar to that in execution. It's range is much smaller than DDoor though, and I would actually have to move at less than my speed if I wanted to back out of melee range - the feats allow moving up to 2x your speed or the limit of the teleportation.

There are a few other options too - rogue talents for Jaunters Hop, Warp Sphere via SoP, etc. I'm not worried - Fading Leap is pretty good. It was mostly looking at that ninth level feature and figuring out which movement mode (SU flight or teleportation) was the coolest, and interacted with other parts of the build.

Fluid Style looks very cool and I am noting it down - great find! I am not sure how that would apply with Style Training, though I would be inclined to say that I could just take two free actions to activate both styles I knew, still limited to a standard action to start a style I did not have the feat for. Potentially this combination would even allow multiple standard actions (now single actions, so 3 per turn) to start styles I did not have the feats for, up to the number of times I had selected Style Training...

Here we are! Everything should be good to go now except for the actual text of the chosen maneuvers.

Vigor 1: 1d10 ⇒ 3 (EDIT: Forgot first level is 2x Max)
Vigor 2: 1d10 ⇒ 9
Vigor 3: 1d10 ⇒ 6

OK, I've updated Morgan here to account for pre-game crafting. Also changed one side of the Mythic build from Marshal to Genius. I think he should be completely good to go now.

OK, I've updated Morgan here to account for pre-game crafting. Also changed one side of the Mythic build from Marshal to Genius. I think he should be completely good to go now.

One thing I saw - your Gestalt from HOF should only be level 2. Half level + tier, and we are tier one, so 1.5 +1 rounds down to 2. I did the same thing initially.

I also took the Mythic Paragon feat, which lets me add 2 to my tier for all calculations based on tier. So instead of 1.5+1, it is 1.5+3, maxed at HD, so level 3.

I also took the Mythic Paragon feat, which lets me add 2 to my tier for all calculations based on tier. So instead of 1.5+1, it is 1.5+3, maxed at HD, so level 3.

Blink. Blink blink. So you did! I missed that, and that's brilliant. I am shamelessly taking that combo and keeping it in mind!