Are Blasters Considered Usable / Useful?

Glad to know that things like an empowered chilling touch for a magus does nothing in your games.

Glad to know that things like an empowered chilling touch for a magus does nothing in your games.

It still does a point of strength damage and I would be extremely surprised if anyone wanted to waste a level 3 spell slot on 1d6 damage.

I will point you guys to the FAQ.

FAQ'd Ravingdork's post re: Empower. I always thought the "variable numeric effect" in this case was the number of damage dice, which varies based on caster level. But now I wonder.

It doesnt answer the question. Is an empowered 6d6 fireball doing:

6d6 + 3d6 for 9d6 or

6d6 * 1.5

It makes a difference for how it interacts with static damage bonuses from things like the Orc or Draconic bloodlines which are based on the number of dice you are rolling.

FAQ'd Ravingdork's post re: Empower. I always thought the "variable numeric effect" in this case was the number of damage dice, which varies based on caster level. But now I wonder.

That is how I have always run it.

It doesnt answer the question.

Then we look to Maximize Spell

Your spells have the maximum possible effect.
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level.
An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus half the normally rolled result.

Says you.

Says the game, says the developers, says everyone who is doing it the correct way.

RaizielDragon wrote:

I see a lot of recommendation for wizards with a dip in xblooded sorc. What about just straight sorcerer instead of wizard?

Vulnerable to energy resistance/immunities. The Wizard is key for the Admixture school benefit that lets you switch elements without switching element type. Thus you get the bonus damage for having a fire type spell but dealing cold damage to the enemy.

wizard isnt key at all. as a Pyromancer Socrcerer i run into quite a few fire immune enemies, but i have other options for dealing with them. acidic spray, baleful polymorph, create pit, summon deadfall, summon monster ect... and i still have a slew of non fire based evocations to toss out.

@TriOmegaZero to me that's as clear as mud. Because of that business about "the separate benefits of each feat". I can explain in detail if necessary but hopefully you understand what I mean, because I don't wanna :(

Edited for tricksy maths...

Rerednaw wrote:

I guess you misunderstood what I meant by a cross-blooded sorcerer but no worries. I do not consider wizards to be cross-blooded sorcerers. :)

I was fooled by your mention of the sorcerer dip at the start of the paragraph. So, level 6 crossblooded sorcerer is looking at:

1: Eschew Materials (free)
1: Spell Focus (Evocation) (Human)
1: Spell Specialisation (Burning Hands)
3: Intensify Spell
5: Empower Spell

With the two metamagic reducing traits he is using level 2 spell slots to throw Intensified Empowered Burning hands for 12d4+24. If he starts at pre racial Charisma 17, adds his level 4 boost to it and has a +2 enhacement bonus then he has 7 2nd and 4 3rd level spell slots to cast it with.

If he is willing to apply the metamagic trait stuff to fireball then at level 7 he is casting Empowered Fireball from level 3 slots for 13d6+26 with 5 slots available.

Sorry, not attempting to fool anyone. I cited different concerns for each category of builds.

Actually this response helps make one of my concerns with this kind of theorycrafting. Both traits to Burning Hands? I don't know what games others play, but I play a character from 1st to 12th in Society Play, 1st to 17th or so in APs.

So if I double trait Burning Hands that's what I have at all levels.
I have not run into a game setting where I can rebuild traits other than racial.

So the answer to what is the sorcerer doing at 5th-6th level if he's trait/feat focused on the ubiquitous fireball (and to a lesser extent chain lightning/fire snake) builds for his primary AoE? Burning Hands...without the traits. 6d4x1.5+12 at 6th level. Not 9d4x1.5+18.

And if he is throwing 6d4x1.5+12 at 6th level, then at 7th when he gets fireball he's only getting a base 8d6 dice. 8d6+1.5+16 after empower effects. So basically 8th level before this arcane caster gets his decent sized (11d6x1.5+22) intensified empowered fireball. I didn't say this was awful...but it's a hard choice for me to make. If this is Pathfinder Society, waiting 2/3 of your effective career to get your signature damage is a long time to wait.

Especially when the lowly wizard has been casting fireballs at +3 CL since level 5. His 'crap' level with Burning Hands was at level 4 when he switched Spell Specialization to Fireball. By contrast he doesn't wait for 2/3 of his career he *gets* his signature damage spell for 2/3 of his career.

The wizard who runs up to 5th and then dips seems like a better compromise. Again not sure one I'd make. Especially in the low-wealth no item-crafting games I've been in. Losing a pair of 3rd level spells to get +10 damage with a single element is again a tough call.

Regarding "get around the deficiency with objects argument" that does apply...I feel it also means what you spent to catch up, the straight caster spent to get ahead of you.

I'll probably try the wiz1-5, src1, wizx combo and see how it compares.

@TriOmegaZero to me that's as clear as mud. Because of that business about "the separate benefits of each feat".

The separate benefits are 'the maximum result' and 'half the normally rolled result'.

Now obviously the maximum result is the Maximize feat in effect. That means that the second part is the Empower effect.

If Empower is 'half the normally rolled result' it CAN'T be an increase to the number of damage dice. You roll the normal amount of dice and multiply the result by 1.5. When you cast a Maximized, Empowered spell, you roll the normal dice (the ones that are maximized) and multiply that by 1.5 to determine how much to add to the maximized total.

Jurkal wrote:

Whisperknives wrote:

Blasters are very useful.

A fireball specialist with the right build and gear can go army killing.

Nobody in the game can kill a group faster than a blaster caster.

Ex.

The blaster specialist Sorcerer in our group loves to see dungeons coming. Those nice small rooms and cramped hallways make throwing down the nuke pretty much a clear the room spell.

At level 7, might have been 8th, he could throw like 4 5D6 + 90 fireballs. No matter what we make sure nobody charges in before his initiative.

One trick pony with that build, but that one trick kills groups dead as Dickens.

Err please explain how he does 5d6+90 DMG thanks

Dual Blooded Sorcerer: Orc/Draconic (red)

Traits: Magical Lineage: Fireball, Wayang Spell Hunter: Fireball
Spell Focus: Evocation
Spell Specilization
Spontaneous Metafocus:
Empower Spell
Some other feat I can not remember.

Caster level of 10 for fireball = 10D6 + 20 (+2 damage per die on spell due to Orc/Draconic)
Empower spell with -2 on metamagic level = level 3 spell (level 4 if they do not allow both to stack)
Empowered Fireball CL 10: 15D6 + 30
Rod of Metamagic can make 10 of the D6's maximized = 5D6 + 90

Sorry, Missed something.

Empower also adds half to the bonus on your dice so the plus 2 damage per die due to dual blooded, becomes + 3 when empowered.

level 7 + 3 caster levels to fireball: 10D6 + 20
Empowered (+0 level due to traits) 15D6 + 45
Rod of maximized: 3/day = 5D6 + 105

Someone did point out correctly though the maximize is 3/day, he had 4 spells of level 3 a day I got it backwards.

Sorry, Missed something.

Empower also adds half to the bonus on your dice so the plus 2 damage per die due to dual blooded, becomes + 3 when empowered.

level 7 + 3 caster levels to fireball: 10D6 + 20
Empowered (+0 level due to traits) 15D6 + 45
Rod of maximized: 3/day = 5D6 + 105

Someone did point out correctly though the maximize is 3/day, he had 4 spells of level 3 a day I got it backwards.

Not quite. Read TriOmegaZero's post above yours again.

CL 10 Fireball + dual blooded = 10d6+20, we'll call this the basic fireball
basic fireball + empower = (10d6+20)x1.5
basic fireball + maximize = (10x6)+20
basic fireball + maximize + empower = ((10x6)+20) + ((10d6+20)x0.5)

Sorry, not attempting to fool anyone. I cited different concerns for each category of builds.
I prefer to avoid level dipping as a wizard to pick up cb sorcerer.
I don't like cross-blooded pure sorcerer builds because waiting for 2 levels after a wizard to get any fireball and 3 levels for a nicer fireball is not my idea of fun.

you do realize you still get fireball at 6, right?

and when your DPR from the fireball is similar to a metamagic version of a standard wizards fireball... you are only gaining from the exchange.

you are using fireball for one level, not very long at all, longer then the crossblooded sorcerer. my burning arc is hitting for 5d6+10 (+2 more if half orc) while your fireball is hitting for 5d6+2, hardly worth it imo.

fireball is a better spell, yes, but the sorcerer is dealing better damage with lower level spells.

you do realize you still get fireball at 6, right?

"A crossblooded sorcerer has one fewer spell known at each level (including cantrips) than is presented on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. "
so a 6th level sorcerer still gets 2 + mod in 3rd level spells.

Per day. The crossblooded sorcerer loses his single 3rd level spell known and thus cannot learn fireball at 6th. See this table and subtract one.

All he can use his 3rd level spell slots for at 6th are to cast his 1st and 2nd level spells more times.

The separate benefits are 'the maximum result' and 'half the normally rolled result'.

Now obviously the maximum result is the Maximize feat in effect. That means that the second part is the Empower effect.

If Empower is 'half the normally rolled result' it CAN'T be an increase to the number of damage dice. You roll the normal amount of dice and multiply the result by 1.5. When you cast a Maximized, Empowered spell, you roll the normal dice (the ones that are maximized) and multiply that by 1.5 to determine how much to add to the maximized total.

Hmm, ultimately does it actually make any difference.

Your way: (10d6+20) * 1.5 for an average damage of 82.5
My way: 15d6+30 for an average damage of 82.5

It does when you add Maximize as well as Empower.

Hmm, ultimately does it actually make any difference.

When you add static damage bonuses to each die added? Yes.

TriOmegaZero wrote:

The separate benefits are 'the maximum result' and 'half the normally rolled result'.

Now obviously the maximum result is the Maximize feat in effect. That means that the second part is the Empower effect.

If Empower is 'half the normally rolled result' it CAN'T be an increase to the number of damage dice. You roll the normal amount of dice and multiply the result by 1.5. When you cast a Maximized, Empowered spell, you roll the normal dice (the ones that are maximized) and multiply that by 1.5 to determine how much to add to the maximized total.

Hmm, ultimately does it actually make any difference.

Your way: (10d6+20) * 1.5 for an average damage of 82.5
My way: 15d6+30 for an average damage of 82.5

Yes it makes a difference - firstly instead of 10d6 start with 9d6 then run your numbers.

Secondly - more yes, but it involves the probability of achieving the numbers rather than the average number. Lets bring it down to 3d6 vs 2d6 that way a chart might actually make sense.

Lets take a look at the chance of rolling max damage here as an example. Using 3d6 you need 3 sixes which will occur roughly .46% of the time. Using 2d6*1.5 you need 2 sixes which will occur 2.78% of the time.

Basically when using more dice you will get more average numbers while using less dice makes the roll more swingy towards the high end or low end.

Which is also basically the difference between using a great axe or a great sword. Achieving a 12 on a greataxe is 8.33%. Achieving a 12 on a great sword is 2.78%. Of course achieving a 1 on a greatsword is also 8.33% percent and achieving a 2 on a greatsword is 2.78%.

andreww wrote:

Hmm, ultimately does it actually make any difference.

When you add static damage bonuses to each die added? Yes.

But you also Empower the static damage as well. Oh I see what the confusion is about.

Empowered Fireball.

10d6+5d6
20+10

The extra "dice" aren't real guys. Thus you don't get to add even more from Crossblooded. Under that way you get,
15d6+45

Really the math should be done like this,
(10d6+20)1.5

@ TriOmegaZero I read it as:

Normally you 1)Figure out the number of dice 2) Roll them 3)Total them up

I read empower as replacing step 2) with "add .5 the number indicated in step 1, then roll them"

Maximize replaces step 2) with "use the maximum possible result"

Maximize + Empower results in 1) Figure the number of dice 2) Use the maximum possible result and roll .5 the number indicated in step 1 3)Total them up

That's my logic. If I am reading correctly you are saying that Empower works instead by adding a step 4) Multiply by 1.5

I don't see anything wrong with your logic but I also don't see any reason for favoring one interpretation over another. Hence FAQ

Of course I am always willing to be corrected if I'm wrong!

Of course I am always willing to be corrected if I'm wrong!

True. Waiting on clarifications is the hardest part.

andreww wrote:

Hmm, ultimately does it actually make any difference.

When you add static damage bonuses to each die added? Yes.

I haven't been multiplying the static which has lead to the same average value but Hawktitan's point on the curve is well taken. I shall amend how I run it.

With Max + Empower you should do the following -

Roll and sum all the dice and static modifiers then multiply by .5 - this is your empowered bonus.

Forget the roll and use your maximized numbers then add your empowered bonus.

It's actually kind of a pain honestly as half the point of using the Maximize metamagic is not needing to roll so many dice but eh.

With Max + Empower you should do the following -

Roll and sum all the dice and static modifiers then multiply by .5 - this is your empowered bonus.

Forget the roll and use your maximized numbers then add your empowered bonus.

It's actually kind of a pain honestly as half the point of using the Maximize metamagic is not needing to roll so many dice but eh.

That is why most people I know just add the extra dice. It is ridiculously inane to have an effect that causes you to do maximum damage, but expect the person to roll anyway just so you can then figure out the 50% bonus. Adding extra dice(+ static bonuses)based on the original dice total will sometimes result in lower totals if you use the standard "round down" rule, but I think it is generally a simpler and more strait forward concept in the long run.

The static damage bonuses from being Blooded are multiplied by Empower just like any other bonuses, since they, in turn, modify the dice they came from. They are considered part of the variable effect, altering the result of each die.

The effect is basically a wash.

Properly, it's 1.5 x result. It's easier to picture 15d6+30 as opposed to (10d6+20) * 1.5. They both end up at the same spot.

and please don't get into the 'fixed damage bonuses per die are not multiplied by Empower.' They've applied ever since Magic Missile, and are not going to stop now.

==Aelryinth

My friend's blaster wizard admixture specialist with a level of cross-blooded sorcerer (orc/silver dragon) is insanely damaging. Fireballs most of the time, metamagiced snowballs for SR or evasion mobs, enemies just DIE.

Dazing is fantastic, but since 12 PFS levels don't allow as much use of it, Rime is also very tasty with cold admixture.

Pump your knowledges up so you always know what to throw at your enemies, and hope the table doesn't mind if you end combat in the surprise round.

I still can't believe that Wayang Spellhunter and Magical Lineage stack/can be applied to the same spell/aren't both considered "Magic" traits...

I'd also been of the opinion (likely demonstrated as wrong) that the bloodline arcanas that add +1 damage per die of a given spell type only applied to spells that were cast from spontaneous spell slots...

Not for PFS where I have to go with Rules As Paizo Explicates, but those are both things I'd ban in a home game.

I still can't believe that Wayang Spellhunter and Magical Lineage stack/can be applied to the same spell/aren't both considered "Magic" traits...

Wayang Spellhunter is a region trait.

TheSideKick wrote:

you do realize you still get fireball at 6, right?

"A crossblooded sorcerer has one fewer spell known at each level (including cantrips) than is presented on Table: Sorcerer Spells Known. "
so a 6th level sorcerer still gets 2 + mod in 3rd level spells.

Per day. The crossblooded sorcerer loses his single 3rd level spell known and thus cannot learn fireball at 6th. See this table and subtract one.

All he can use his 3rd level spell slots for at 6th are to cast his 1st and 2nd level spells more times.

well i misunderstood that, you could still get around that by using paragon surge or a few other tricks. but now i see why that would be unfavorable.

I still can't believe that Wayang Spellhunter and Magical Lineage stack/can be applied to the same spell/aren't both considered "Magic" traits...

But they are both still "Trait" bonuses so do they actually stack or are they considered "untyped" bonuses since they don't specify what type they are in the text?

Technically they are both traits so anything provided by them would be typed as trait unless otherwise specified. However, technically the effect is not a bonus, so there shouldnt be a reason for them not to stack

A 10th level wizard casts a fireball, adding empowered.

She rolls 10d6. She adds 5 for being an evoker, then multiplies the result by 1.5.

Dazing is fantastic, but since 12 PFS levels don't allow as much use of it, Rime is also very tasty with cold admixture.

If you take magical lineage and wayang spell hunter you can start throwing dazing fireballs from level 7/8 just in time for the mor difficult higher level scenarios. If you take them for Magic Missile you can do it from level 3/4 and force multiple will saves to avoid losing a turn.