The Night March of Kalkamedes PbP (Inactive)

Game Master lucklesshero

strength checks are ineffectual you can 'aid Carnni's grapple check that's all (she and Kranzer will still need nat. 20's to escape)

Am I reading this correctly, that even if Vulf were to successfully aid Carini’s grapple check that the probability of her escape would remain unchanged since she is only free on a nat. 20?

As a player, I do not oppose freeing the demon. My PC, Vulf, absolutely opposes freeing the demon and assumes that it will devour the rest of the party.

FYI, Vulf/Farlen can do a reposition on Kranzer to move him out of harm's way. His CMD is 0 due to his willingness, and I assume you'd get bonuses on the roll (up to the GM). Essentially, "Grab my hand! OK!" Kranzer wouldn't provoke an AoO for the movement.

(Remember this needs to be unanimous to free the demon. Carini you've got a vote too).

Carini's vote (as evidenced by her actions) is to free the demon. I don't know how she could vote any other way; she dies if we don't. If we do... maybe she dies. Maybe is better.

If I move up and cast obscuring mist will it give a miss chance to the attack to grapple (CMB)? I have not really ever had that come up. Secondly, did the demon reach outside the circle to grapple? Is it possible to reposition Kranzer without getting in the demons reach? I am not familiar with how that works either.

OK so...I went through The entire CORE rule book FAQ and Advanced Player's Guide FAQ and Errata's of both books. No where could I find anything that stated anything regarding using the re-position ability against an ally...the re-position combat maneuver reads as if it were intended to use against enemies only However, there is no official ruling on this that I can find.

Here's the text:
You can attempt to reposition a foe to a different location as a standard action. You can only reposition an opponent that is no more than one size category larger than you. A reposition attempts to force a foe to move to a different position in relation to your location without doing any harm. If you do not have the Improved Reposition feat or a similar ability, attempting to reposition a foe provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver. You cannot use this maneuver to move a foe into a space that is intrinsically dangerous, such as a pit or wall of fire. If your attack is successful, you may move your target 5 feet to a new location. For every 5 by which your attack exceeds your opponent’s CMD, you can move the target an additional 5 feet. The target must remain within your reach at all times during this movement, except for the final 5 feet of movement, which can be to a space adjacent to your reach.

An enemy being moved by a reposition does not provoke an attack of opportunity because of the movement unless you possess the Greater Reposition feat. You cannot move a creature into a square that is occupied by a solid object or obstacle.

This is specifically Stating Enemies or foes 5 times within the text... So the only Reason you could do this on a player is if they are under the influence of something and acting as an enemy I'd presume.

This is further backed up by a similar combat maneuver Drag:

You can attempt to drag a foe as a standard action. You can only drag an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. The aim of this maneuver is to drag a foe in a straight line behind you without doing any harm. If you do not have the Improved Drag feat or a similar ability, initiating a drag provokes an attack of opportunity from the target of your maneuver.

Stability Racial Trait: Some characters or types of creatures prove particularly sure-footed, making them more difficult to overthrow and move around the battlefield. Any racial ability that grants a bonus to CMD versus bull rush attempts grants the same bonus against drag combat maneuvers.

Notice they use the word enemy not ally, in the second to last paragraph? So my presumption would be this: these maneuvers do not provoke AoOs against enemies because of the possibility of abusing AoO's and dragging them in a circle or re-position them in order for your friends just to strike them. But, for allies and friends I would rule this is a regular movement (just because the subject doesn't provide his own locomotion doesn't mean he hasn't moved out of a square that provokes an AoO)
Further more, using a combat maneuver is an attack by RAW, so a player can choose not to use his/her str. dex or even BAB class levels to resist the Attack..but the other player must still be able to at least pass the standard CMD base 10 and as always a 'nat 1' fails the attempt of any attack.

So my ruling is this: Kranzer is subject to An AoO...as he is moving from a threatened space. Also Vulf needs to make a CMB check vs. CMD 14 or he fails to move Kranzer (Kranzer cannot simply turn off his race he's short and stocky low to the ground..it's harder to move him.)

I will not be offended if you call a venture officer for a ruling on this: but please read This thread first, and you'll realize there is no official ruling one way or the other on this.

Sorry for making this difficult but, in my view this is an exploit of the rules if I allow you to move from a threatened square unhindered. I will wait 24hrs for one of you to contact an online VO if you wish. Please let me know if you've contacted one, so everybody is in the know, that the game is on hold until we get a ruling. If no one wishes to contact a VO please indicate you're fine with my ruling and we'll continue. Otherwise, if I don't hear back from anyone within' 24hrs I will continue the game and ruling stands.

Thx for your patience
Remember I'm here just as a judge..I have to obey the higher courts sorta speak. If you don't agree with my ruling just notify the group and myself that you'll be challenging the ruling and we'll accept the outcome and move forward.

Thx again
still enjoying the game myself
Lucklesshero

If I move up and cast obscuring mist will it give a miss chance to the attack to grapple (CMB)? I have not really ever had that come up. Secondly, did the demon reach outside the circle to grapple? Is it possible to reposition Kranzer without getting in the demons reach? I am not familiar with how that works either.

Farlen Grapple is a Combat Maneuver they are treated much the same as attacks before a they are initiated. Here is the text on Obscuring mist:

So to surmise if a person is not in a grapple or pin already...treat any combat maneuver like an attack for the purposes of concealment. As for already in a grapple there's a clear mechanic for invisibility (adds +2 to CMD to avoid be grappled or grapple maneuvers but no other benefit) seeing how concealment allows a creature to be targeted a creature adjacent to the Demon would receive no benefit. But, I would still allow a creature grappled at 10' (because of reach) to reap the +2 benifit to CMD.

As far as reach...it does appear the creature could have reach but the circle may be stopping it. The Only vulnerable creatures appear to be those right next to the circle ...since the Demon hasn't attacked anyone except those adjacent . But, I'd advise against approaching...it's apparent it's claws reach longer than they have been.

FYI if I do take an AoO against Kranzer with the Demon I'll allow your obscuring miss 20% chance to take effect (as if Vulf had held action till you cast the spell) but that would mean Vulf has a 20% to miss Kranzer as well because of concealment. Note: how I do concealment and total concealment if a D100 [i]the lower % always is the miss. . Therefore, for concealment 01-20 would miss and total concelament 01-50 would miss.[/ooc]

We're in a messy pickle here. Hudor doesn't have any skills/spells that I think will be useful in this situation. Reading over the rules, our GM has showed us, I don't think the VO would rule things differently.

I reached out to Redelia to see what she thinks.

If reposition can only be used on enemies, wouldn't grappling Kalkamedes also be in violation since he is neither an enemy nor an ally of the party, just sleepwalking?

Also, I would say that anyone can willingly lower their defenses. It's the same reason Vulf wouldn't have to hit Kranzer's touch AC to target him every time with cure light wounds.

I am not familiar enough to know who to contact. But it probably doesn't hurt to have a VO look it over. It could mean character life or death. And what is the hurry?

touching someone because they let you and lifting a 200lb person to any position in reach have much different effects and results. By your interpretation a 30lb gnome could move a 300lb half orc to any square he wanted as long as the half-orc allowed it. I don't even want to get, in to the bag of rats argument or the peasant rail gun debate. You may be correct by RAW and we play by RAW in PFS...but your reasoning is completely unsound in my opinion Kranzer.

This is why I encouraged you to reach out if you disagreed.

I agree with that. I don't necessarily have a problem with requiring a CMB check to foil an extreme case of abuse as in your examples, though I don't think this specific situation would qualify as abuse. The ruling seems intended to prevent the worst case scenario. In any case, I'd rather not get into a rules debate here; I'd rather wait on Redelia's input. I would like clarification on three things moving forward so I'm not making any assumptions, however:

1. Does Vulf have to reroll his check he made earlier to pull Kranzer back?

2. Is Kalkamedes considered an ally or an enemy?

3. Are there any other combat maneuvers that are less effective or not at all effective when used on creatures that are not enemies?

Does Vulf have to reroll his check he made earlier to pull Kranzer back?

He made a strength check and a CMD check By re-roll, I assume you'd prefer the strength check represent the CMD? Answer: Since we're trying to stick to rules as written Not as intended we'll also stick to what is written on the thread. Vulf fails the CMB check..unless Redelia rules otherwise. ( I had already confirmed this with him on the game-play thread).

2. Is Kalkamedes considered an ally or an enemy?

He has resisted every attempt at you grappling him.....

3. Are there any other combat maneuvers that are less effective or not at all effective when used on creatures that are not enemies?

I suppose you could Overrun your ally and waste a standard action and it would work. But then again they wrote separate rules for walking through an allies space didn't they? Does this mean you cant' walk through an allies space that is two sizes bigger than you? As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square. You can only overrun an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. Clearly there was different intent for when a friend passed through your space than there was an enemy pushing his way through.

Then again I think the new interpretation of Bull Rush is awesome! My 20ft speed Dwarf moves (double move) My Human Barbarian (40ft move) charges behind him bull rushing him the extra 40ft! Because he (the Dwarf) auto fails his CMD (according to your interpretation) So yeah now both my characters get across that long hall at the same time! What a hack! Love it! There is that pesky line about this strange thing called an opponent though. But what the hey I can identify myself anything I want as long as it helps me right!
A bull rush attempts to push an opponent straight back without doing any harm.

kranzer wrote:

Does Vulf have to reroll his check he made earlier to pull Kranzer back?

He made a strength check and a CMD check By re-roll, I assume you'd prefer the strength check represent the CMD? Answer: Since we're trying to stick to rules as written Not as intended we'll also stick to what is written on the thread. Vulf fails the CMB check..unless Redelia rules otherwise. ( I had already confirmed this with him on the game-play thread).

kranzer wrote:

2. Is Kalkamedes considered an ally or an enemy?

He has resisted every attempt at you grappling him.....

Kranzer wrote:

3. Are there any other combat maneuvers that are less effective or not at all effective when used on creatures that are not enemies?

I suppose you could Overrun your ally and waste a standard action and it would work. But then again they wrote separate rules for walking through an allies space didn't they? Does this mean you cant' walk through an allies space that is two sizes bigger than you? As a standard action, taken during your move or as part of a charge, you can attempt to overrun your target, moving through its square. You can only overrun an opponent who is no more than one size category larger than you. Clearly there was different intent for when a friend passed through your space than there was an enemy pushing his way through.

Then again I think the new interpretation of Bull Rush is awesome! My 20ft speed Dwarf moves (double move) My Human Barbarian (40ft move) charges behind him bull rushing him the extra 40ft! Because he (the Dwarf) auto fails his CMD (according to your interpretation) So yeah now both my characters get across that long hall at the same time! What a hack! Love it! There is that pesky line about this strange thing called an opponent though. But what the hey I can identify myself anything I want as long as it helps me right!
A bull rush attempts to push an opponent straight back without doing any harm.

This seems overly hostile to me. I'm not sure what this is, or how it was provoked, but, seeing as it is likely this will be the type of response received for any further inquiry, I will decline to be a part of this discussion thread any longer.

Sorry everyone.

I would agree that, while this discussion started civil, it seems to have escalated. There's probably some misinterpretation of intentions on both sides. I'm sure nobody wants it to escalate; emotions and intent are sooooo easy to misinterpret in a purely text-based format.

Since leadership has been asked to review this particular ruling, we should probably all just step back until Redalia can review. If she has questions, she'll ask them. Any further discussion has the risk of this devolving into what will likely be an unnecessary and perhaps painful argument.

If that happens, Redalia is likely ruling on more than just a rules question.

Kranzer has contacted me in my role as VA for Flaxseed about whether the reposition combat maneuver can be used on an ally or not. Looking at this thread, I see that the GM has also made clear he welcomes such a ruling.

Before I say anything else, I want to make clear that this is not meant to be binding on any other game or anything like that. Also, this is my opinion after discussion with others, it is not meant to represent anyone else's opinion.

My considered opinion is that you can use reposition on an ally, and that ally does not take an attack of opportunity for moving out of a threatened square.

I have been asked to weigh in on the difficulty of this combat maneuver. In this case, I have to decline to provide a ruling, because I do not believe there are any clear rules that apply. This is a place where GM best judgement is the way to adjudicate the issue. I can see an argument for the difficulty to be anywhere from 'automatic success' to 'normal CMD.' Your GM will need to make a decision and let you know.

Ok so let me make it clear I'm not "out for blood"...I've actually been very much interested in your survival and look forward to playing with all of you in the future. Yes this includes Kranzer.

And I do want to take this opportunity to apologize to Kranzer if he feels my reply was hostile. I do get cranky sometimes. I invited and encouraged a VO to make this ruling because I wanted to make sure you knew I was being fair. That blew-up in my face when I responded to Kranzer in a diadiactic manor.

Few things I want to leave with

1. Kranzer you have a right to your opinion of an interpretation of the rules. (without feeling belittled or ostracized in anyway for your opinion)
2. It is my belief, that rules should be taken for their intended spirit as much as if not more than what is actually written. Clearly you cannot identify an ally as enemy any time it suits your needs. It breaks too many parts of the game than the corner case we're dealing with.

I am declining to rule on or play out the situation with Kranzer. I feel like if I stick to what I'm inclined to rule..that the game would not be much fun. So I'd like to leave on as high note as possible

Since it only takes one of you to free the Demon, if only one of you decides to free the Demon to save Carini we will go with option one.
This is my final ruling on the game.

Again sorry for the abrupt close of the game. I will put up a final flavor post soon and get chronicles ready tonight or tomorrow. You've all done excellent and I truly hope I am rewarded with your presence again.

Thx for playing
lucklesshero

In the current situation, I think it would be best to take option A. I'd prefer to lose a Boon and PP than have Carini die.

Yep, that is cool with me. I am not in it for the prestige, just having fun. Farlen is a jeweler not a professional pathfinder.

I was just thinking if we let the Demon free, 10,000 years of bottled evil demon frustration would be unleashed on 6, weak and hapless adventurers, then the surrounding countryside. TPK.

If Farlen had anything more useful than a cold iron dagger, he would be hacking away at the circle furiously. Wait, he has a light mace with which in a few hours he might be able to succeed at damaging the floor enough.

Just a pity we couldn't save the elfwoman-looking outsider.

I wanted to sleep on this so I could be clear-headed in my response (my two year-old’s been keeping me up these last few nights). First, the apology is certainly accepted and appreciated. No matter how this would’ve turned out, I don’t begrudge anyone for anything that occurred here. I think everyone here is a fine, fine player and you, lucklesshero, are a great GM. I enjoy your style and the challenge you bring to games. Due to the dice and the efforts to save a party member, I think the situation just evolved in a strange, unique way, which led us into gray areas of the rules.

That being said, I do bear responsibility for this situation as well. The assumptions that I made concerning rules that were not clearly defined led to the resulting clash of assumptions, and for this I am very sorry. I will need to do a better job of examining my assumptions going forward.

As for the choice, yes, I believe freeing the demon is the best course of action. I’m assuming that the Ghaele did something to Kalkamedes to make him sleepwalk, so if she dies he will be cured of it?

Cool. That works too. Now I am a more prepared jeweler.

Thanks for the run through Lucklesshero. I had a blast. My wife even got a kick out of the story which is very unusual. I usually get "What a silly game." instead.

I, too, want to thank everyone for a really fun game. From the very beginning with the banter back-and-forth among the party, I knew that I would turn out really enjoying this game. Of course, it didn't turn out as I had hoped, but it was certainly memorable and has made for some good stories (Am I correct that there is another scenario where this demon appears? If so, I would love the chance to play it with this party if at all possible!)

The "puzzle room" with the dais, alone carried a family car-ride discussion as my wife and three kids all offered suggestions about what was the key to getting past the door. We didn't obviously didn't arrive at a correct solution during that trip, but luckily the rest of you were able to figure it out!

I'd look forward to opportunities to play with anyone of you again.

Agreed, the story was very well told, and the mechanics for Kalkamedes were fun without bogging down play much. Thanks for the game, and I welcome future games with any of you all.

Hudor do you want to roll your day job check? I'll put everyone's chronicle in the folder except yours. When you roll your day job I'll drop yours in Ok?

has anyone a boon that gives them a PP point when they didn't earn one normally? I can correct your chronicle but, I'd like to report the scenario correctly so your character shows up with the correct amount of prestige points. I'll give till Sunday for people to respond. In the mean time ..everyone's chronicles but Hudor's are in the shared folder. Please let me know if I need to correct something.

Profession Brewer: 1d20 + 4 ⇒ (10) + 4 = 14

[dice=Profession Brewer]1d20+4

Hudor your chronicle is in the shared folder now too...Remember everyone else! If you have a boon that allows you to gain a prestige point when you would normally not have earned one...this would be the time to use it! Let me know by Sunday night or I'll only report your character(s) as having earned 1 PP..

Actually, Carini does have the Prized Find boon from Wounded Wisp. She will cross that off for the 1 PP. Thanks!

You were instrumental in uncovering a cache of lost records that the Pathfinder Society can use to explore hitherto unknown sites. If you would fail to earn a Prestige Point at the end of an adventure due to failing a success condition, you may cross this boon off your Chronicle sheet to remind your superiors of your past breakthroughs and earn the 1 Prestige Point as if you had successfully fulfilled the condition. You may only use this boon if you would also gain at least 1 XP for completing the adventure (0.5 XP if you use the slow track advancement option).

Kranzer also has the Prized Find boon and can use that.

So is everyone satisfied their chronicle is correct? Everyone got one? I'll be reporting the game tonight so this will be your last chance to turn in a boon that, gives you a PP. (just show it as crossed off on your character portfolio, I don't need a pdf or jpeg of it crossed off): I',ll be taking this game thread down tomorrow along with the link to the map and chronicles.
Let me know if you need anything before I close this game up ok?
Been good playing with you guys
Hope you can overlook the last part where I got a bit cantankerous.
Peace
Lucklesshero

Everything looks fine to me.

I've crossed both boons off Carini's online profile (Prized Find for the PP, and Explore Report Cooperate for the question earlier). Her Chronicle Sheet in the folder still just shows 1 PP. lucklesshero, can you please let me know here when it's been updated?

Thanks!

I want to thank everyone for the game, and apologize for letting Carini get captures and sending things off the rails that way.

Interestingly, Carini is a character that's been struggling to find her voice; I think our challenges in this game have helped to firm that up, so thank you all for that... Vulf especially!

@ GM lucklesshero - Vulf's chronicle looks good. Thanks!

@ Everyone - Again, a fun game and would love to have any of you at a future table. I hadn't quite figured out Vulf's voice, either, when this game started. He certainly ended up being a bit more complex, and devout, than I would have initially thought. Thank you all for helping me to get to know this character better and for carrying the "brand new guy" along. Happy gaming!

the game is reported...I'll take the campaign and retire the thread tonight. Also I'm going to remove the link to the campaign folder from my avatar. Thx for playing everybody

And thank you for running, GM!