Hmmm... I'm currently undecided. I was going to make a long and detailed post about the pros and cons about various forms... but before that is even worth considering, there are two major MAJOR questions that need to be answered first:
1) Do the benefits of the polymorph effect stack with the benefits gained from being an Animal Companion? Or do they replace them? (for example: the scaling natural armor bonuses)
2) Does the clause about changing into specific forms causing equipment to merge into the form (which were written assuming a humanoid caster/target) apply equally for a Dinosaur target? Link to the rules governing polymorph effects.
When you cast a polymorph spell that changes you into a creature of the animal, dragon, elemental, magical beast, plant, or vermin type, all of your gear melds into your body. Items that provide constant bonuses and do not need to be activated continue to function while melded in this way (with the exception of armor and shield bonuses, which cease to function). Items that require activation cannot be used while you maintain that form. While in such a form, you cannot cast any spells that require material components (unless you have the Eschew Materials or Natural Spell feat), and can only cast spells with somatic or verbal components if the form you choose has the capability to make such movements or speak, such as a dragon. Other polymorph spells might be subject to this restriction as well, if they change you into a form that is unlike your original form (subject to GM discretion). If your new form does not cause your equipment to meld into your form, the equipment re-sizes to match your new size.
I bolded the two most important (imo) lines to consider.
If the answer to #1 is that they do stack, then it may be worth considering. If not, then heeeellllllz-no!
If the answer to #2 is a dinosaur to a dragon causes equipment to merge, then heeeeeelllllllz-no again! (not only does Carolinus wear barding (armor) but a saddle that gives benefits to both of us but only if Sir Orrin is actually sitting in it while he is on it and it is on Carolinus. Merging makes that impossible). If however they are considered similar enough to allow worn equipment to stay and simply re-size if necessary, then it is indeed worth considering.
I will however add the following questions/concerns/points:
Can an elemental be ridden? Earth I can see, but Air, Fire, or Water?
If Carolinus becomes anything larger than Large, how does a small sized rider with a small sized lance attack off of it?
Sir Orrin gains considerable bonuses against enemies that are larger than him, so he does not wish to become larger in order to ride and fight off of a larger mount (or larger in general for any reason, really).
I think turning Carolinus elemental is not going to fly... but going dragon might, depending on the answers to the above two questions.
If it is worth doing, I would only consider the following dragon types: Black, White, Brass, Gold. Those 4 are the only ones available via Form of the Dragon that have the same base speed as a Deinonychus (Carolinus). Everything else is slower, and would thus be a nerf instead of a buff.
Carolinus as a Dragon would lose out on Low Light Vision, Scent, and Pounce. Against Large sized and smaller foes and/or Undead, I want to keep Pounce (Lunging Lance Charge with a free Trip attack followed by a jumping Pounce with 5 Undead Bane attacks = awesome). Against something like this beast we're going to fight soon, it (pounce) probably will not be used though.
The Darkvision, Strength boost and Con boost are nice though. As is becoming essentially immune to all future polymorph effects while this lasts.
How long would it last? Same Kingdom (check), Same Class (Dino to Dragon? maybe), Same Size (check). Either 1 week duration, or permanent. :O
So yeah: we need the above 2 questions answered first, then we can discuss the pros, cons, and other details/specifics of this plan.
^_^
I would suggest just scaling the two up. Carolinus to an Allosaurus and Sir Orrin to some sort of giant. Carolinus would just become a bigger version of his current self. He would literally keep all his major abilities, and his gear should not be affected period as he is just going from dinosaur to dinosaur. More importantly, he hits the important Huge size. With Air Walk and his current flying item, he is golden.
However, I have no idea how we would handle the giant part statistically. Polymorph Any Object could certainly do it (an example of turning a rock into a person is there), but there are no rules or guidelines about turning somebody into a giant. Does it mimic the Giant Form line of spells?
I would say dragon would let you keep items as the two forms are fairly similar (both have tails, claws, long snouts). You are adding wings, but I think we have all seen enough dragons with saddles to be ok with that. I would say they are not the same class because they are different types.
I know that originally they moved references to size with regards to mounts in Pathfinder, so I think it is fine for a small creature to ride a large creature and still attack.
Once everyone gets happily buffed we will move forward to the storms edge.
Reminder: you can observe magical and nonmagical acid, fire, lighting, hail, and ice within the storm.
Control weather and control winds are managing the nonmagical effects.
Good questions there, P. Now, I'm not sure on all of them, but I can help with my own two cents. From what I can tell, an animal companion's natural armor bonus "is an improvement to the animal companion's existing natural armor bonus.", but the glossary states that only enhancement bonuses to natural armor stacks with natural armor bonus. So through the tangle of bonuses, I'm seeing that they probably don't stack. It's weird, but if the spell were cast BEFORE the animal companion natural armor bonus were to kick in, only then would that work.
I've got no clue of elementals can be ridden or if saddles could not be merged. Best case scenario, you could hitch a ride inside a water elemental, but that's probably another can of worms right there. So it seems all in all that polymorphing Carolinus wouldn't be a great idea. I'm not sure if you or anyone else may want the buffing purposes of that spell down the line, but I just thought I would bring it up to help.
But, if it's worth anything, I do have the answer to the last question you had there. Since PAO states that it "can also be used to duplicate the effects of baleful polymorph, greater polymorph, flesh to stone, stone to flesh, transmute mud to rock, transmute metal to wood, or transmute rock to mud", I think that the duration would remain to 1 min./CL.
Once everyone gets happily buffed we will move forward to the storms edge.
Reminder: you can observe magical and nonmagical acid, fire, lighting, hail, and ice within the storm.
Control weather and control winds are managing the nonmagical effects.
Thanks, tumbler. Are we seeing all these in equal measures? Or is one aspect of the storm overshadowed or extraordinarily prominent apart from the others?
The only buffs I'm planning on using before the fight (besides the ones that Jake casts each morning) are Fiery Body and Shield. Just going to wait a bit, though, as it'll be a bit before the gap is closed and I'd rather not burn the resident dragon.
It does seem like the physical bonuses for animal companion do not stack. I'd say the elements like bond and evasion stack.
Elementals are physical creatures, so you can ride them.
The elemental effects seem about equal.
Alright. In that case, Fiery Body seems like the perfect buff for me at this point. I'll make a post involving the casting when the group is close enough for Jake to fly and keep up as we breach the storm wall.
I was thinking about doing something like this with the Righteous armor quality, but it would need to be on both my armor and Carolinus' barding to be used at the same time. However, it was too costly (+27000 for each), and I retain more benefits more often from remaining small.
For example, against creatures two size categories larger than me, I get a +2 bonus to CMB, +2 bonus to CMD, and a +12 bonus to damage. Against creatures larger than both Sir Orrin and Carolinus (at this point, that is any creature that is Large or larger), we gain an addition +2 bonus to CMD (+4 total). Being the Small size category also gives me a +1 bonus to hit and a +1 bonus to AC.
Giant Form is personal and not under the influence of PAO (from what I can tell, it is limited to the list given by greater polymorph), so no dice there. Also, even if I could get it (from giant-hide armor, for example) the +8 size bonus to strength simply doesn't compare to the above bonuses gained for being small. Unless of course our enemies are medium sized and smaller, then the size bonuses begin to be an aid instead of a nerf.
Hm, I was starting to warm up to the idea of a medium sized black dragon or gold dragon Carolinus... but if the Natural Armor gets replaced.... *shudder*, that's +14 current Natural Armor getting brought down to lowly +4 Natural Armor. Being melee centric, 10 points of AC is rather significant. The stat increases should work though, as the polymorph spells do not replace those, but give size bonuses to the targets current stats instead.
As a counter thought... wouldn't the +4 natural armor bonus of Form of the Dragon replace the base natural armor of the Animal Companion (in this case +2), and because it's still an animal companion, then gain the bonuses detailed in the chart (bringing it up to +16 total)? If an Animal Companion dies and gets replaced, the replacement gains all the bonuses on the chart at that moment, while an animal companion that gets dismissed (from what I understand) looses all the bonuses and reverts to a regular animal... so it seems like the bonuses (Str/Dex increases and the increased Natural Armor, etc) is a byproduct of the link/bond between the master and the Animal Companion, not it's actual form.
Still, Dragon Carolinus has some cool factor to it, but at this moment, I'm thinking it may not be a good idea as well. The natural fly speed gained is the same as what the Fly at will gives me that I already have, but gives a penalty (poor maneuverability) rather than a bonus. The Str and Con boost is still nice though, albeit small.
Good thought though.
^_^
The natural armor bonus from Animal Companion says it adds to the creature's existing natural armor bonus.
Form of the Dragon says it gains a natural armor bonus, so I suppose it would make sense for the bonuses you are giving to it to still apply.
I wouldn't rule that based on the 3.5 version of Polymorph any Object, but based on the fact that it now works like the shape spells, that makes sense.
Sorry for the flip-flopping. I know older versions of this high level stuff way better than the Pathfinder versions. I need to do more reading.
No worries from me. ^_^ There were a lot of subtle shifts from 3.x to Pathfinder. Some are considerably more subtle than others. The polymorph changes were big, and (imo) for the better.
(back in the day, a super buff druid would turn into an average bear, while a frail elderly wimpy druid would turn into an average bear. Now, the super buff druid would turn into a ripped bear, while the frail elderly wimpy druid would turn into an old and weak bear. At least I think this is a good thing).
EDIT: so now I guess the question is... is an 8th level spell worth (what will basically amount to in this situation) a +2 increase to AC, +16 Hit Points, +1 Fort Saves, and Resist 20 vs one energy type for Carolinus, and a +2 bonus to base damage for Sir Orrin when he charges (I get to add Carolinus' strength mod to the damage roll in addition to my own when charging). It might be. I'll leave that decision up to you Ace/Jacob.
Yeah, that's one of the reasons I took Form of the Dragon III. That Con bonus saved my bacon more than once in prior campaigns. I can understand if you're not totally keen on polymorphing your mount, though. If anyone else wants some polymorphic buffs, just let me know.
Also, the storm has magical weather effects, right? Would it be too cheesy to drop a Mage's Disjunction? Don't want to be that guy, just thought it would keep the pain away if it came down to it.
EDIT: I don't mind. My major 8th level spells are mostly buff and status effects. And as a handsome sorcerer, I've got spell slots for days. If you want it, it's yours.
Also, tumbler, to help out, I'll link any spell I mention in the future. With my previous experience with tabletop RPGs taking place in college, I'm more than used to citing sources.
I think we were so traumatized by the old polymorph rules that we just haven't gone there again.
So should we start talking tactics? Or is it a bit premature for that?
I don't think that is a question for me, but I say go for it.
Personally, I was thinking that I'd have Jake entangle that thing while Kat and Orrin beat the crap out of it. Not much of a plan, but I figure it could be a useful way to go about things.
I plan just to elemental punch it into submission.
Sorry for kinda leaving you behind, there. Is there a way you'll think you'll get over easily? Feel like we should start the fight soon.
Speaking of possible cheese with Mage's D, would it also be too much to use Plant Shape on someone in order for Nagato to Walk the Lines? Or, if possible, polymorph glass and rocks into plants?
EDIT: Didn't know you can't transport through plant creatures. The second question still stands if you want it, CDL.
Busy weekend. I will post tomorrow. I just plan to trail the group at a distance, take care of a few things buff wise, and then teleport straight to the creature once they get there.
spell resistance may protect me from the storm.
I do have a couple questions:
Can we lift cohort level and followers based on being epic?
And same with SR, since we are over lvl 20, can we lift the 35 cap?
Regarding SR: uhm, what? I've never heard of this SR 35 cap, and no where in my quick search do I see anything stating that.
I remember that d20srd had Epic Leadership that increased cohort levels and follower counts, but I'm not sure why we'd necessarily need that. We've got like five or six major badasses as is. Guess this would be one of those, down the line things, though.
Regarding SR: uhm, what? I've never heard of this SR 35 cap, and no where in my quick search do I see anything stating that.
I've not heard of an SR cap, either. I do know that there are some ways to get SR that are static and some that scale, for example a Mantle of Spell Resistance or the Aberrant bloodline's 15th level power respectively. But I've never seen a "cap" for SR.
I'd rather not raise the leadership cap at the moment, though maybe later depending on whether we decide to implement mythic rules or not at some point.
I have a sorceress cohort, and she caps at level 17. As such, she gets no level 9 spells. I will admit that I would Mira to have at least one.
I'd rather not raise the leadership cap at the moment, though maybe later depending on whether we decide to implement mythic rules or not at some point.
I'm kind of getting hyped for Mythic. I want to get that book when it comes out.
And CDL, I know that pain. Always OOOOONE step behind the smart people when it comes to spells.
I have the PDF but haven't read much yet.
The PDF of the playtest or the full book? Because the latter would be really nice right about now. If only I had the dough to drop on that right now.
The full book. I'm an RPG subscriber.
You lucky bum, haha. Well, guess I should start scrounging up for that sort of thing. I'm terribly interested in the possibilities.
This is just my opinion and preference, but I figure I'd put it out there.
If we do eventually include mythic rules (perhaps only once it's been added to the PRD/SRD to ensure everyone has access to it regardless of personal funds/purchases), I'd humbly request that it be implemented in game via plot and character actions. That is, our characters actually have to do something or be involved in a specific event to warrant to additional rules and subsequent increases to our powers. Perhaps it's part of the path to immortality should we seek that out? Have the mythic rules applied slowly and incrementally as our characters discover the higher powers of the multiverse, etc.
I think it would simply to far too jarring to have a sudden, mid-game rebuild. IF we do it, of course. ^_^
From what I've read so far, that is one of the options, where you have to overcome certain challenges in order to gain a mythic tier.
Also, I think there is plenty to do with the current character capabilities before we worry about new abilities.
Of course. I'm plenty happy with what Jake can do normally without having to look into the Mythic book. But I've just had my eye on that for a bit and now I'm curious on what kind of fun stuff they added since the playtest. Tumbler, do you think it'd be worth the purchase price from what you've read up on it so far?
Also, I'm ready to post up a general buff post in the gameplay thread as soon as someone else updates it. I'm not against going twice in a row here, but I prefer not to in gameplay threads. After my next post, consider me ready for Storm fighting.
I'm torn on the value. My glance through the feats left me feeling sort of blah. A lot of them are just like non mythic feats but add a +2. Others seemed interesting. Also, the roles or whatever they are called aren't as flexible as I might like them to be. I think I would have to work up some characters to know how useful it is.
The GM stuff does look great, but that might be less appealing.
That said, I think all of paizo's books are a good deal. I get as much pleasure from reading them as I get from novels plus get the game on top.
Once I get a more comprehensive view I'll come up with a better answer.
It's from the half-celestial tenplate.
Interesting, that seems to be the only place where it is capped.
Shame to hear that it's not necessarily great. Maybe the Mythic Adventures book will bring in some more possibilities.
And that's strange, Fnord. But I guess templates don't usually go towards PCs, so Paizo probably wanted a more suitable way to go about fighting them. But there are other ways to get SR, if you so desire, such as Ward Shield. But that assumes you have a shield on hand.
Don't write it off just on my first impressions.
frustrated mine hasn't arrived yet.
Haven't bothered to start reading the pdf copy.
Did have a 15th level 5th tier character but the gm's fell apart on that game.
Sorry to hear that, Fnord.
And it's not like I'm not going to get it eventually, I just think I can probably hold off a bit before dropping the cash. Luckily enough, I forgot that the $40 price tag was only for the hardcover copy, not for the PDF, so I might get it sooner rather than later.
I'm currently in the process of designing/mapping and detailing my little slice of the Ghujod demiplane. I just wanted to confirm a few things.
Price of Permanency for one casting of Create Greater Demiplane (needed to the base area) is 22500gp. Material Component for the spell is 500gp, so 23000go total. This gives the default planar stats: Normal Gravity, Normal Time, Normal Magic, No Energy, No Alignment, Finite Shape (borders are real, but can look like many a thing). This also creates a total area of 360 x 10' cubes.
If we want to add anything special and/or change any of the default traits, we need another casting of the spell per change, meaning each change also costs another 500gp for the material component (but does not need to be made permanent unless you are adding more total area).
Is this all correct so far?
If so, then I'm nearly finished it. My little slice is all mapped out, and most of the areas are described. Just need to finish describing the last few areas, and finalize the planar traits and costs, and presto! Just wanted to make sure the above was correct first.
Also, is there an existing layout of the Ghujod demiplane? Or should I simply describe the portal connecting Sir Orrin's area as going into the... main concourse? (I'm hoping to go the portal route rather than a direct link)
There isn't too much to a layout, except for the main hallway that joins everyone's sections together. Plus, Pirate, the Create Demiplane spells don't have material components, they have focuses/foci. So the 500gp is only necessary on one person's part, which I'm assuming is Validk's responsibility.
The $500 gold forked metal rod is a focus, not a material component, so I only need to have one.
Each recasting to add/change traits is just time.
The only cost changer would be if you wanted to have a bigger area.
$22,500 gold gets you 20 10' cubes per caster level. Before we kicked this off I made a change that increased my CL to 20. So each casting is worth 400 cubes.
Ah! I see! (I can't believe I mistook the F for an M)
40 more 10' cubes?! O_O
*ponders where to put them*
I know what you mean, P. I still have to design what my section will end up looking like. This would be much easier if I had some map editing capabilities, I'll tell you that much.
I'm doing a very simple paint style map. I was thinking of using/editing an actual image and putting a grid over it, but it looked silly and far too complicated, so I removed that layer and kept the simple grid, simple lines, simple shapes, and solid colors style map. Labeled everything adventure style (with a giant S1 in the middle of a room, S2 in another, etc) to reference the writeup of each area/important areas. I may track down or edit some pictures for "concept art", but that will be separate from my actual layout/map.
EDIT: Seriously though, start simple. One room, this big. It's purpose is this. It is attached to this, which is this big, and is for this. Expand slowly form there. Art wise, it's a good idea to start as simple as a pencil and a sheet of graph paper. Each square can easily represent a 10' cube. Make a pencil and paper map before worrying about a digital one. Also, if you're like me and prefer 5' squares, remember that each 10' cube is made up of 8 x 5' cubes... and that in order to keep things livable for people taller than dwarves, you need 2 x 5' cubes to make one 5' square tall enough for you to stand in (aka to make a ceiling 10' high).
Sounds easier than I thought in that case. I'll jump onto that when we get closer to needing those details.
I keep thinking that Jake would still use Mage's Magnificent Mansion, regardless of his access to the demiplane. But mostly, it would be due to the sheer amount of food that spell can create. Conjure up a banquet enough for 336 people? Sign me right up.
Hmmm, I should begin designing my cube. Fnord, do I get to choose any options for my section of the plane or does it not work like that?
Example:
When Validk casts the spell to create the plane, can you choose the traits for each casting of the spell? Or does the new addition go off of the main plane?
He did mention that we can personalize our planar traits. The spells say that the plane can get different traits with each casting at your leisure. At least, I think that's what you're asking.